Quote from: Aos;520344Emphasis mine, I would not dispute what you are saying on bit if the DMG did not have the issues it does, but it is poorly organized and written in a strange voice and requires a microscope to see properly. The fault may be partially on the new DM

OK I'll agree that the DMG could have been more welcoming to the new DM. Or that the separation between the "Basic" game and the "Advanced" game was missing a critical step: the guy introduced to the game as player via the "Advanced" game who would graduate to DM in the same game while skipping the "Basic game" step.

So OK, there are some ways in which the DMG could have been more useful for the fledging DM graduating from the AD&D game itself. I'll agree to that.

I think what Aos is saying is that if 80 per cent of the rules to the game are known and understood by only one player in the group, you shouldn't be surprised when a shit-load of those rules get turfed, overlooked, or misapplied.

Quote from: Haffrung;520348I think what Aos is saying is that if 80 per cent of the rules to the game are known and understood by only one player in the group, you shouldn't be surprised when a shit-load of those rules get turfed, overlooked, or misapplied.

We went over this already. Keep up with the conversation, dude.

I still can't bring myself to read more than 4-5 pages of it at a time, but that's down to the font.

Quote from: Benoist;520349We went over this already. Keep up with the conversation, dude.

Ease up. We're posting fast in here.
And that's exactly what I'm saying.  I think. i don't even know anymore.

It's interesting because I didn't skip the "Basic Game" step. I started playing with First Ed. Then I ran the Dark Eye RPG my cousin offered to me at Christmas that year (which was kind of like a German clone of basic D&D at the time). Then I picked up the Red Box D&D very shortly afterwards and ran my first games as DM, to then graduate to AD&D.

Quote from: Benoist;520353Then I ran the Dark Eye RPG my cousin offered to me at Christmas that year . . .

Okay, when I read "Dark Eye," I thought of something very different, and wondered exactly what kind of 'roleplaying game' you and your "cousin" were playing.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;520397Okay, when I read "Dark Eye," I thought of something very different, and wondered exactly what kind of 'roleplaying game' you and your "cousin" were playing.

Yeah nooooo! Totally NOT the "Brown Eye" RPG! :eek:

Das Schwarze Auge, i.e. L'Oeil Noir, in German and French, respectively.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;520397Okay, when I read "Dark Eye," I thought of something very different, and wondered exactly what kind of 'roleplaying game' you and your "cousin" were playing.

I bet those yuropeeans have a Chocolate Starfish RPG.

Quote from: Benoist;520349We went over this already. Keep up with the conversation, dude.

oh, some of us have a life.  we try, man,  we try.

Quote from: Aos;520399I bet those yuropeeans have a Chocolate Starfish RPG.

That's normally a different kind of role playing...

The Variable Character thread had an interesting observation in it that 3d6 rolled 6 times and assigned in order is not one of the attribute generation methods in AD&D1e.  Incredulous, I double checked this.

The first thing I discovered is that exactly how to generate a character's attributes is not addressed in the logical place in the PHB.  There is only a note saying that the DM will tell a player how to do it.

I also think it's interesting that the PHB says that it is "essential" to the character's survival to have at least two abilities equal to or greater than 15.

Anyway, the DMG has the various Methods for ability generation.

Method I is what I've heard called the "hero method".  4d6, drop the low die, arrange by preference.  It's position as the first method implies to me that it is intended as the default.

Method II involves rolling 3d6, but rolling for 12 scores and only using six, arranged by preference.

Method III involves rolling 3d6 again, but each ability is rolled for 6 times each and the highest is kept for each ability.

Method IV is the ONLY one which is 3d6 rolled for each ability in order, but even it involves generating 12 (TWELVE) characters and choosing the best one.

So, at the moment, it seems to me that the most hallowed rule of hardcore AD&D, the "manly" idea of taking the dice as they fall for abilities, isn't even present in the holy books of Gygax.  

In fact, 3d6 rolled and assigned in order is the rule in Basic, not AD&D.  

My mind is kinda blown on this one.

3d6 in order is OD&D (the brown booklets).

AD&D is supposed to work with one of the stat generation procedures you outlined here, Gabriel.
4d6-drop-lowest is the one I've seen used the most.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend 3d6 in order for AD&D PCs.  The 3d6 in order method works just fine with OD&D and the little brown books, but stats are *much* less important under those rules (although once you add in the OD&D Supplements, it's pretty much like AD&D).  AD&D gives stats a lot more weight.

B/X too.