Quote from: Ocule on February 23, 2023, 12:04:19 AM

Others I've found that are old school games but not what is normally thought of as osr
Dragon warriors or advanced fighting fantasy. About the same game but dragon warriors has an implied setting
Tunnels & Trolls (heard good things haven't tried this one)
Mythras
Cepheus system or Traveller little black books
Warhammer fantasy role play 2e
Cyberpunk 2020 (not red. RTal is meh as a company but this was made when they were awesome.)
Savage worlds (they're yellow atm but the game is still solid)

For non D&D I'm loving Dragonbane from Free League, still in Beta -https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1192053011/drakar-och-demoner-dragonbane - it should release in August. If you're looking to GM for new players I'd say it was a great choice. It plays more like an Elder Scrolls CRPG like Skyrim than like D&D (or Diablo) - PCs can be pretty badass, but will never be slaying hundreds of foes like a high level D&D PC can.

Quote from: Torch Fire on February 21, 2023, 10:44:18 PM
I don't know what OSR games are, nor am I familiar with RPG Pundit's work, but I'll seek to educate myself on those, thank you.
If nothing else, I think I might give Castles & Crusades a look.

Check out Lion & Dragon! However, I'll also say that Castles & Crusades is a good place to start out with.

Quote from: Ocule on February 23, 2023, 12:04:19 AM
Castles and crusades IMO is still a good bet I'd still recommend it. There are plenty to choose from in the osr and out of the osr too. Ultimately I found your choice in osr games is pretty minimal. There are hundreds of osr compatible products but the overwhelming majority of osr comes in the form of the little brown books or 0e (modern clones such as swords & wizardry and even lion and dragon draw from this) and basic dnd route which includes most osr games overall. My personal recommendations within the osr are

Swords and wizardry
Adventurer conquerer king system (best racial classes)
Lion and dragon (I really like the way he does leveling up)
Castles and Crusades (these guys are kinda osr adjacent and great for people coming from 5e or 1e dnd. This is what 3rd edition should have been according to Gary gygax)

As someone who got into the hobby in the early 2e era, I'm fond of For Gold and Glory By God Emperor Games. It's a good rulebook for 2e-themed OSR play (that red-headed stepchild of old-school D&D).

Mongoose's Green status might need another look given recent release of "Shield Maidens".

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/428064/Shield-Maidens-Training-Guide?cPath=161_44774.

Quote from: Mongoose
Shield Maidens is a game of women standing shoulder to shoulder with their sisters against the forces allied against all humanity. Create a diverse, inclusive cast of characters and dive into an action-packed roleplaying game with quick, easy-to-learn rules that emphasise collaboration and teamwork. Be wary, the enemies of Midgard are many, and the gods will not help you. Only the mightiest women will be able to live on forever in the tales and songs of the Shield Maidens!

There was discussion on the Mongoose forums about ability to play as male or "non-binary". Response was "non-binary" was dandy but male is relegated to an "Allies" option - not sure if it is actually a supplement or in main book, but it was a stretch goal for the kickstarter. Given the Shield Maidens must be female I guess you must need rules for a different class to play as a "male ally".

As an aside, apart from any identity politics issues, the intro to the game setting on the kickstarter page is hilariously badly written.

Quote from: The kickstarter
Five centuries ago, Freya created the Shield Maidens. The women took from Midgard the greatest technology they could find, and the goddess imbued it with her magic. Tasked to save the universe from the chaos of Ragnarök, this first generation of Shield Maidens were dauntless in their resolve, taking the fight directly to Fenrir. Their hubris left them branded as terrorists, and the grip of the Empire grew ever tighter.

As Fenrir consolidated their power over humanity, they began to look to the stars. The Midgardian sun was shutting down, and the supply of Ymir's Blood was not enough to sate them. It was not until they sailed amongst the stars that they met The Pure, a species utterly convinced that they are the chosen children of the gods. The Pure have spent centuries travelling through the endless black, murdering their dark elven cousins.

As Fenrir and The Pure met, the sky ignited, arcs of light spearing the cosmos as they clashed in combat. Across the stars they meet in endless battles, The Pure seeking the annihilation of the less favoured children of the gods. Yet, they no longer fight the dwarves, who threw off their control in ages past. Existing as a 'mind sphere', the dwarves have renounced physical bodies. Instead, they strive for knowledge.

Yet they are not without fault. Their formlessness has allowed them to become complacent to the horrors of the cosmos, much in the way of the Jötunn. These giants carved from the stones, trees and glaciers of their realm simply do not care. The trials of humanity are seen as trivial in comparison to the battles they wage, perpetually slaughtering in order to earn a place at the side of the gods.

Maybe this makes more sense if you are more familiar with Viking mythology than I am.

I think part of the problem is "they" might be getting used as a gender-neutral pronoun, whereas most people will probably be looking for a plural subject somewhere.

Quote from: Marchand on February 25, 2023, 05:55:05 AM
Mongoose's Green status might need another look given recent release of "Shield Maidens".

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/428064/Shield-Maidens-Training-Guide?cPath=161_44774.

Quote from: Mongoose
Shield Maidens is a game of women standing shoulder to shoulder with their sisters against the forces allied against all humanity. Create a diverse, inclusive cast of characters and dive into an action-packed roleplaying game with quick, easy-to-learn rules that emphasise collaboration and teamwork. Be wary, the enemies of Midgard are many, and the gods will not help you. Only the mightiest women will be able to live on forever in the tales and songs of the Shield Maidens!

There was discussion on the Mongoose forums about ability to play as male or "non-binary". Response was "non-binary" was dandy but male is relegated to an "Allies" option - not sure if it is actually a supplement or in main book, but it was a stretch goal for the kickstarter. Given the Shield Maidens must be female I guess you must need rules for a different class to play as a "male ally".

As an aside, apart from any identity politics issues, the intro to the game setting on the kickstarter page is hilariously badly written.

Quote from: The kickstarter
Five centuries ago, Freya created the Shield Maidens. The women took from Midgard the greatest technology they could find, and the goddess imbued it with her magic. Tasked to save the universe from the chaos of Ragnarök, this first generation of Shield Maidens were dauntless in their resolve, taking the fight directly to Fenrir. Their hubris left them branded as terrorists, and the grip of the Empire grew ever tighter.

As Fenrir consolidated their power over humanity, they began to look to the stars. The Midgardian sun was shutting down, and the supply of Ymir's Blood was not enough to sate them. It was not until they sailed amongst the stars that they met The Pure, a species utterly convinced that they are the chosen children of the gods. The Pure have spent centuries travelling through the endless black, murdering their dark elven cousins.

As Fenrir and The Pure met, the sky ignited, arcs of light spearing the cosmos as they clashed in combat. Across the stars they meet in endless battles, The Pure seeking the annihilation of the less favoured children of the gods. Yet, they no longer fight the dwarves, who threw off their control in ages past. Existing as a 'mind sphere', the dwarves have renounced physical bodies. Instead, they strive for knowledge.

Yet they are not without fault. Their formlessness has allowed them to become complacent to the horrors of the cosmos, much in the way of the Jötunn. These giants carved from the stones, trees and glaciers of their realm simply do not care. The trials of humanity are seen as trivial in comparison to the battles they wage, perpetually slaughtering in order to earn a place at the side of the gods.

Maybe this makes more sense if you are more familiar with Viking mythology than I am.

I think part of the problem is "they" might be getting used as a gender-neutral pronoun, whereas most people will probably be looking for a plural subject somewhere.

I strongly suspect that after Thirsty Sword Lesbians, Matthew Sprange went "There's Gold in Them Thar Woke Hills! Giddy-up hyaaah!" I find it really hard to believe it's anything other than cynical opportunism from Mongoose.

A minor quibble, but the alphabetical order goes a bit wrong in the green section now around this point:

Palladium (Rifts) Does what they have always done, make gonzo worlds
Mithgarthr Entertainment (Mithgarthr RPG, Regulation Codex) Mithgarthr RPG is no longer available for sale but has some cool adventures for OSR compatible games. Owner Matt Evans has stated that he wants no modern politics or social commentary in his products.

Quote from: S'mon on February 25, 2023, 06:02:45 AM
I strongly suspect that after Thirsty Sword Lesbians, Matthew Sprange went "There's Gold in Them Thar Woke Hills! Giddy-up hyaaah!" I find it really hard to believe it's anything other than cynical opportunism from Mongoose.

Agree this is likely, but by the same token, I am sure many Amber and Red firms are behaving in the same way.

I am certainly not going to waste my money on it (£25 each for the player and GM books in pdf), but the free samples available on drivethru are preachy in all the ways you'd expect - the big bad is a male-dominated capitalist empire that pollutes the environment and encourages excessive consumption. The main PCs of the setting are explicitly only allowed to be female (or it turns out in the forums, "non-binary"), although they can have male "allies".

The author is apparently one Alison Cybe:

Quote from: Alison Cybe's website
They have a degree in Film & Media with a minor in sociology and media, they are non-binary and their pronouns are they/them and was born in Scotland. They currently live in England, and are co-manager of a large gaming club, and have written extensively on inclusion and positive representation within the gaming community in particular with relation to LGBTQ+ and transgender visibility in several gaming publications and blogs.

I hate to see Mongoose go down this route, but they have published this product.

Quote from: Marchand on February 25, 2023, 11:40:48 AM

Quote from: S'mon on February 25, 2023, 06:02:45 AM
I strongly suspect that after Thirsty Sword Lesbians, Matthew Sprange went "There's Gold in Them Thar Woke Hills! Giddy-up hyaaah!" I find it really hard to believe it's anything other than cynical opportunism from Mongoose.

Agree this is likely, but by the same token, I am sure many Amber and Red firms are behaving in the same way.

I am certainly not going to waste my money on it (£25 each for the player and GM books in pdf), but the free samples available on drivethru are preachy in all the ways you'd expect - the big bad is a male-dominated capitalist empire that pollutes the environment and encourages excessive consumption. The main PCs of the setting are explicitly only allowed to be female (or it turns out in the forums, "non-binary"), although they can have male "allies".

The author is apparently one Alison Cybe:

Quote from: Alison Cybe's website
They have a degree in Film & Media with a minor in sociology and media, they are non-binary and their pronouns are they/them and was born in Scotland. They currently live in England, and are co-manager of a large gaming club, and have written extensively on inclusion and positive representation within the gaming community in particular with relation to LGBTQ+ and transgender visibility in several gaming publications and blogs.

I hate to see Mongoose go down this route, but they have published this product.

Matthew came on here to discuss this product and he rougly stated "If this product is not for you that's ok, I understand why, there's no agenda here and the story looked interesting that's why we published it."

Mongoose is just fine and if it publishes a book that's different than most so be it, LOTFP has content some would view abhorrent but they aren't on the Red list.  There are different tastes of content for everyone.   Wait for a pattern of behavior before you bring the pitchforks.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 25, 2023, 11:56:35 AMMatthew came on here to discuss this product and he rougly stated "If this product is not for you that's ok, I understand why, there's no agenda here and the story looked interesting that's why we published it."

Mongoose is just fine and if it publishes a book that's different than most so be it, LOTFP has content some would view abhorrent but they aren't on the Red list.  There are different tastes of content for everyone.   Wait for a pattern of behaviour before you bring the pitchforks.

Sure, a setting where only women and non-binary people can be heroes, and the enemy is The Patriarchy. No agenda there, we should totally wait till it's several supplements in before judging.

I mean if there's a game where women have a slightly different statline, or there's a single career women can't be, then it's the Devil, and the whole machine comes for it; but let's nod along and be chill when they crank out a whole genre that can be summed up as "no straight white guys need apply."


LOFP is in no way comparable to Shieldmaidens or TSL. Sure they each piss off the other side, but LOFP pisses off the Wokes because they're looking to be pissed off; while Shieldmaidens and TSL are DESIGNED to other and piss off us.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 25, 2023, 12:33:15 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 25, 2023, 11:56:35 AMMatthew came on here to discuss this product and he rougly stated "If this product is not for you that's ok, I understand why, there's no agenda here and the story looked interesting that's why we published it."

Mongoose is just fine and if it publishes a book that's different than most so be it, LOTFP has content some would view abhorrent but they aren't on the Red list.  There are different tastes of content for everyone.   Wait for a pattern of behaviour before you bring the pitchforks.

Sure, a setting where only women and non-binary people can be heroes, and the enemy is The Patriarchy. No agenda there, we should totally wait till it's several supplements in before judging.

Let me rephrase: mongoose stated they had no company wide agenda.  The book on the otherhand is dripling with AgiProp and hot garbage.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 25, 2023, 12:55:14 PM
Let me rephrase: mongoose stated they had no company wide agenda.  The book on the otherhand is dripling with AgiProp and hot garbage.

Seems fair.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 25, 2023, 12:55:14 PM
Let me rephrase: mongoose stated they had no company wide agenda.  The book on the otherhand is dripling with AgiProp and hot garbage.

Quote from: The consumer guide to RPGs
Amber: Entities in this section have engaged in some questionable behavior, taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products. Entities here have not caused any harm or engaged in anti-consumer behavior.

(My emphasis.) I am struggling to see how Mongoose is not Amber on this definition.

Quote from: Marchand on February 25, 2023, 02:30:11 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 25, 2023, 12:55:14 PM
Let me rephrase: mongoose stated they had no company wide agenda.  The book on the otherhand is dripling with AgiProp and hot garbage.

Quote from: The consumer guide to RPGs
Amber: Entities in this section have engaged in some questionable behavior, taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products. Entities here have not caused any harm or engaged in anti-consumer behavior.

(My emphasis.) I am struggling to see how Mongoose is not Amber on this definition.

Make 'em yellow then.  The remaining mongoose catalgoue has little to do with this book at all.

Quote from: Ocule on February 23, 2023, 12:04:19 AMMy personal recommendations within the osr are

Swords and wizardry
Adventurer conquerer king system (best racial classes)
Lion and dragon (I really like the way he does leveling up)
Castles and Crusades (these guys are kinda osr adjacent and great for people coming from 5e or 1e dnd. This is what 3rd edition should have been according to Gary gygax)

Others I've found that are old school games but not what is normally thought of as osr
Dragon warriors or advanced fighting fantasy. About the same game but dragon warriors has an implied setting
Tunnels & Trolls (heard good things haven't tried this one)
Mythras
Cepheus system or Traveller little black books
Warhammer fantasy role play 2e
Cyberpunk 2020 (not red. RTal is meh as a company but this was made when they were awesome.)
Savage worlds (they're yellow atm but the game is still solid)

then there is O5R which idk much about and some other gems out there
Index Card rpg
Ezd6

I'm looking forward to the Shadowdark RPG.  It claims "Old School Gaming, New School Mechanics", and its being marketed to both 5e players and OSR players.  Which is something we've all heard before, but this one looks like it could actually be a very nice D&D replacement.  It looks like it has the potential to become my go-to D&D system, as it seems to be a fairly simple system that just does alot of things very well.

The game's creator, Kelsey Dionne, writes RPG adventures, and she wrote the highest-rated adventure ever on DriveThruRPG.  Bryce Lynch over at TenFootPole also always gives her adventurers high praise.  She grew up near Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, she started playing RPGs with AD&D 2e, and she's met and speaks highly of Gary Gygax and old school play.  She wrote both 5e and OSR adventures, but she's left 5e and is focusing on Shadowdark now.

Her company, The Arcane Library, seems like it should be on the Green List here.  I've never seen anything woke about them, and Kelsey always comes across as a genuinely nice and kind person.

The Kickstarter begins in a few days, February 28.  Kelsey talks about the origins of Shadowdark here:

The Story of Shadowdark RPG

Quote from: Crusader X on February 25, 2023, 05:09:23 PM

Quote from: Ocule on February 23, 2023, 12:04:19 AMMy personal recommendations within the osr are

Swords and wizardry
Adventurer conquerer king system (best racial classes)
Lion and dragon (I really like the way he does leveling up)
Castles and Crusades (these guys are kinda osr adjacent and great for people coming from 5e or 1e dnd. This is what 3rd edition should have been according to Gary gygax)

Others I've found that are old school games but not what is normally thought of as osr
Dragon warriors or advanced fighting fantasy. About the same game but dragon warriors has an implied setting
Tunnels & Trolls (heard good things haven't tried this one)
Mythras
Cepheus system or Traveller little black books
Warhammer fantasy role play 2e
Cyberpunk 2020 (not red. RTal is meh as a company but this was made when they were awesome.)
Savage worlds (they're yellow atm but the game is still solid)

then there is O5R which idk much about and some other gems out there
Index Card rpg
Ezd6

I'm looking forward to the Shadowdark RPG.  It claims "Old School Gaming, New School Mechanics", and its being marketed to both 5e players and OSR players.  Which is something we've all heard before, but this one looks like it could actually be a very nice D&D replacement.  It looks like it has the potential to become my go-to D&D system, as it seems to be a fairly simple system that just does alot of things very well.

The game's creator, Kelsey Dionne, writes RPG adventures, and she wrote the highest-rated adventure ever on DriveThruRPG.  Bryce Lynch over at TenFootPole also always gives her adventurers high praise.  She grew up near Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, she started playing RPGs with AD&D 2e, and she's met and speaks highly of Gary Gygax and old school play.  She wrote both 5e and OSR adventures, but she's left 5e and is focusing on Shadowdark now.

Her company, The Arcane Library, seems like it should be on the Green List here.  I've never seen anything woke about them, and Kelsey always comes across as a genuinely nice and kind person.

The Kickstarter begins in a few days, February 28.  Kelsey talks about the origins of Shadowdark here:

The Story of Shadowdark RPG

I believe she's been discussed before here on this giant thread and she wasn't put on any list due to her only having relatively few products.