Quote from: PulpHerb on October 13, 2022, 12:22:57 PM
It recently became the first RPG set in the 1920s that encouraged characters to let people know their preferred pronouns.

Quote from: Xanadu on October 13, 2022, 02:38:17 PM
Ugh, I see. Did the edit the 7e core books and everything or what?

As far as I know, there is no change to the rules. They revised the official character sheet PDF downloads so that there is a space for "pronoun" that replaces "sex".

From my view, I don't see that this would encourage anything in my gaming either way. I'd still run my 1920s game as the 1920s. Historically, there was no tradition of asking for pronouns, but there were still transgender people, as there have been throughout history. If someone had a transgender character, they'd put what pronouns they use in that space. If outed, they would be discriminated against by most of American society.

Quote from: jhkim on October 13, 2022, 05:04:11 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on October 13, 2022, 12:22:57 PM
It recently became the first RPG set in the 1920s that encouraged characters to let people know their preferred pronouns.

Quote from: Xanadu on October 13, 2022, 02:38:17 PM
Ugh, I see. Did the edit the 7e core books and everything or what?

As far as I know, there is no change to the rules. They revised the official character sheet PDF downloads so that there is a space for "pronoun" that replaces "sex".

From my view, I don't see that this would encourage anything in my gaming either way. I'd still run my 1920s game as the 1920s. Historically, there was no tradition of asking for pronouns, but there were still transgender people, as there have been throughout history. If someone had a transgender character, they'd put what pronouns they use in that space. If outed, they would be discriminated against by most of American society.

While there'd be people we'd consider transgender in the 1920s, I don't believe there was the concept of transgender in the 1920s. I don't even think a transgender person could conceive of themselves as such. Such an identity wouldn't be conceived of until the 1950s and 60s, and then in small academic/medical circles. Such a person in the 1920s would more likely conceive of themselves as transvestite/gay, and would also likely understand their chosen pronouns as part of a disguise. It would likely be very ugly to be outed in most places in the 1920s.

That makes Chaosium's choice of having an entry for pronouns on the character sheet more stupid. Nobody bothers to have an entry for pronouns for the various disguises they may have. Empty-headed virtue-signaling.

Quote from: wmarshal on October 13, 2022, 06:05:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 13, 2022, 05:04:11 PM
From my view, I don't see that this would encourage anything in my gaming either way. I'd still run my 1920s game as the 1920s. Historically, there was no tradition of asking for pronouns, but there were still transgender people, as there have been throughout history. If someone had a transgender character, they'd put what pronouns they use in that space. If outed, they would be discriminated against by most of American society.

While there'd be people we'd consider transgender in the 1920s, I don't believe there was the concept of transgender in the 1920s. I don't even think a transgender person could conceive of themselves as such. Such an identity wouldn't be conceived of until the 1950s and 60s, and then in small academic/medical circles. Such a person in the 1920s would more likely conceive of themselves as transvestite/gay, and would also likely understand their chosen pronouns as part of a disguise. It would likely be very ugly to be outed in most places in the 1920s.

There were transvestite and gay people as well, but there were also genuine transgender people would conceived of themselves as actually being different than their sex assigned at birth. In the 1920s, there were famous transgender people like Lili Elbe, Alan Hart, and Lucy Hicks Anderson.

And the history of such people goes back much earlier. Someone could call it a relatively common form of delusion, but regardless of how one labels it, people of this behavior and beliefs existed. They identified as a different sex, and tried to live their lives as that other sex.

EDITED TO ADD: Some historical societies also had recognition of transgender and/or third sex people, like hijras in India or winyanktehca among the Lakota.

Quote from: wmarshal on October 13, 2022, 06:05:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 13, 2022, 05:04:11 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on October 13, 2022, 12:22:57 PM
It recently became the first RPG set in the 1920s that encouraged characters to let people know their preferred pronouns.

Quote from: Xanadu on October 13, 2022, 02:38:17 PM
Ugh, I see. Did the edit the 7e core books and everything or what?

As far as I know, there is no change to the rules. They revised the official character sheet PDF downloads so that there is a space for "pronoun" that replaces "sex".

From my view, I don't see that this would encourage anything in my gaming either way. I'd still run my 1920s game as the 1920s. Historically, there was no tradition of asking for pronouns, but there were still transgender people, as there have been throughout history. If someone had a transgender character, they'd put what pronouns they use in that space. If outed, they would be discriminated against by most of American society.

While there'd be people we'd consider transgender in the 1920s, I don't believe there was the concept of transgender in the 1920s. I don't even think a transgender person could conceive of themselves as such. Such an identity wouldn't be conceived of until the 1950s and 60s, and then in small academic/medical circles. Such a person in the 1920s would more likely conceive of themselves as transvestite/gay, and would also likely understand their chosen pronouns as part of a disguise. It would likely be very ugly to be outed in most places in the 1920s.

That makes Chaosium's choice of having an entry for pronouns on the character sheet more stupid. Nobody bothers to have an entry for pronouns for the various disguises they may have. Empty-headed virtue-signaling.

The 20's and 30's Jazz scene in Paris and Berlin (and to a certain extent, New York and London) especially was pretty wild and homosexual/bisexual/cross-dressing was pretty common among the wild glitterati of that era.  (Certainly that was starkly different than, say, rural Ohio where you'd literally be risking your life in some cases to be outed).  But yeah, the whole "Gender Ideology" wasn't a thing, and that's why it's so silly in a game about that era.

It makes me wonder what else they've put in their books though.

Quote from: jhkim on October 13, 2022, 05:04:11 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on October 13, 2022, 12:22:57 PM
It recently became the first RPG set in the 1920s that encouraged characters to let people know their preferred pronouns.

Quote from: Xanadu on October 13, 2022, 02:38:17 PM
Ugh, I see. Did the edit the 7e core books and everything or what?

As far as I know, there is no change to the rules. They revised the official character sheet PDF downloads so that there is a space for "pronoun" that replaces "sex".

From my view, I don't see that this would encourage anything in my gaming either way. I'd still run my 1920s game as the 1920s. Historically, there was no tradition of asking for pronouns, but there were still transgender people, as there have been throughout history. If someone had a transgender character, they'd put what pronouns they use in that space. If outed, they would be discriminated against by most of American society.

that doesn't make them the actual sex they identify as. you can tell when a man is a man just by looking at him. in the 1920s without HRT this gets worse- any transgender character would be outed extremely quickly. If they are a woman, she can pass a little easier- although the curve of her shoulders and the width of her hips would be a dead giveaway.

Keep sex. It's 100% accurate.

Crazy question, but why even have it on a character sheet? It's not something the player is likely to forget and doesn't act as an identifier like the name.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 14, 2022, 12:06:34 AM

Quote from: jhkim on October 13, 2022, 05:04:11 PM
From my view, I don't see that this would encourage anything in my gaming either way. I'd still run my 1920s game as the 1920s. Historically, there was no tradition of asking for pronouns, but there were still transgender people, as there have been throughout history. If someone had a transgender character, they'd put what pronouns they use in that space. If outed, they would be discriminated against by most of American society.

that doesn't make them the actual sex they identify as. you can tell when a man is a man just by looking at him. in the 1920s without HRT this gets worse- any transgender character would be outed extremely quickly. If they are a woman, she can pass a little easier- although the curve of her shoulders and the width of her hips would be a dead giveaway.

This is shown false by history, though. Lucy Hicks Anderson lived for decades as a woman, and was only outed when required to undergo medical examination. Lili Elbe also lived for years as a woman, often introduced as her wife's sister-in-law.

As conjecture, historical European clothing was far less form-fitting than modern fashions. Also, with historical medicine and disease, people more often had irregular features from ill health or developmental issues. Those are only conjectures, though. However they did it, there were transgender people who were not noticed for years - and probably some more who were never outed.

I think the point is that even in the 1920s, historical transgenders fully adopted the appearance and mannerisms of the gender they were representing, so it was still a He/She dichotomy. There wasn't a They/Zher/Jim/Tomahawk Assault Helicopter thing going on.

In a game where you are already representing someone besides yourself (in a somewhat fantasy world), I would expect individuals to represent people not of their actual gender at some point or another. I myself have played several female characters and have enjoyed them more than my male ones for the most part. You are already roleplaying a part, you really don't need to roleplay that you are roleplaying some obscure gender/pronoun when the DM can fiat that a person is (for social intents and purposes) the gender they are presenting. Since the social/presented gender is the one that everyone deals with in the storyline, there's not really a need to refer to a biological sex. (If there is, it's probably not a game I would want to play anyway.)

Quote from: PulpHerb on October 13, 2022, 12:22:57 PM

Quote from: Xanadu on October 13, 2022, 09:18:15 AM

Quote from: MigRib on October 13, 2022, 08:41:00 AM
Yeah, agreed. I recently bought their 2nd edition box set because CoC is dead by now.

What do you mean? I thought CoC was doing fine.

It recently became the first RPG set in the 1920s that encouraged characters to let people know their preferred pronouns.

That is stupid. It doesn't make any historical sense.  My game is set in the 1980s, and even if it was woke (i.e.,insane) it wouldn't do that  just for the sake of historical accuracy,

Quote from: Hopladamus on October 08, 2022, 11:49:24 AM

Quote from: Ocule on October 07, 2022, 10:37:34 PM
I'll make a new post soon so it can be stickied, catalyst did get kicked down to red. Idk about modiphious I remember something about their fallout rpg being pretty damn preachy. But you're right they are nowhere near as bad as the others

For the green list:

Vincent Florio/Wild Games Productions - Known as "TheEvilDM" on YouTube. Creator of "Mazes & Perils". Check the disclaimer text at the bottom of his company's website if you need any convincing that he should be on the Green list.
https://www.wildgamesproductions.com/

Jon Torres/The Basic Expert - A libertarian designer who used to work on Traveller. The designer of Cowpunchers. I think his YouTube videos can prove that he should be on a green list.
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheBasicExpert?app=desktop

I hope you see my message this time.

I can 100% vouch for Vince. He and I did the Roll for Initiative podcast for ten years.

Quote from: jhkim on October 14, 2022, 01:57:13 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 14, 2022, 12:06:34 AM

Quote from: jhkim on October 13, 2022, 05:04:11 PM
From my view, I don't see that this would encourage anything in my gaming either way. I'd still run my 1920s game as the 1920s. Historically, there was no tradition of asking for pronouns, but there were still transgender people, as there have been throughout history. If someone had a transgender character, they'd put what pronouns they use in that space. If outed, they would be discriminated against by most of American society.

that doesn't make them the actual sex they identify as. you can tell when a man is a man just by looking at him. in the 1920s without HRT this gets worse- any transgender character would be outed extremely quickly. If they are a woman, she can pass a little easier- although the curve of her shoulders and the width of her hips would be a dead giveaway.

This is shown false by history, though. Lucy Hicks Anderson lived for decades as a woman, and was only outed when required to undergo medical examination. Lili Elbe also lived for years as a woman, often introduced as her wife's sister-in-law.

As conjecture, historical European clothing was far less form-fitting than modern fashions. Also, with historical medicine and disease, people more often had irregular features from ill health or developmental issues. Those are only conjectures, though. However they did it, there were transgender people who were not noticed for years - and probably some more who were never outed.

Examples of two people. Two. They're the exception and not the norm for the era. all of the examples you give are outliers. It's true, in your avant-garde sub cultures, such people would have found a place. The fact of the matter is for the greater part of society at the time, people who were homosexual and/or trans would have been considered deviants and would have been treated as such.

With that being said, Chaosium replacing "Sex" on the character sheet with "pronoun" is nothing more than self-serving virtue signalling and serves no purpose beyond that.

My understanding is that Lynne Hardy is the one behind all of these changes and the one to run Chaosium recently, most of the shitty changes to the books have her name on it.

Quote from: Abbo1993 on October 14, 2022, 08:18:45 AM
My understanding is that Lynne Hardy is the one behind all of these changes and the one to run Chaosium recently, most of the shitty changes to the books have her name on it.

The responsibility for the nonsense lies with the company ownership. If not Lynne Hardy  Chaosium would have just had another person in a similar position do the same nonsense. Don't fall for the fantasy that "if it wasn't for that dratted employee everything would be fine."

The company is definitely ok with it but regarding the specific changes, she seems to be the one behind them, I have been following the other writers and most of them seem to be fairly liberal in their thinking (I am too so I don't have a problem with that) but otherwise still capable of making a good product, Hardy meanwhile is very vocal about her stance which wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the absymal quality of her work and I'm talking specifically of children of fear, possibly the only CoC campaing I never want to play again, I'm not American and I don't really care about the whole culture war thing but anything that seems "progressive and inclusive" in the ttrpg scene turns out to be crap as of lately.