Here are some images of a recent EF email I received saying that the discord is theirs (not a fan discord) and THE place to get their real time news, and the back of the new OSE Advanced books which shows that it is an EF product now:

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 04, 2021, 05:52:03 PM
Until Venger gets an apology and everyone they banned is reinstated, don't buy OSE. Buy Swords & Wizardry or Labyrinth Lord if you need to buy a clone instead.

And if not, buy RPGPundit products to support free speech!

(yes, I could have said buy Venger's stuff as he's the aggrieved party, but let's not go crazy here!)

I recommend Basic Fantasy Role-Playing also. It's not as pure to B/X as OSE, but I think that is actually a good thing, as I think the rule changes to B/X D&D show sound judgement, and are generally improvements. The changes are fairly subtle too, so it stays compatible with old TSR D&D products. OSE has superior presentation and it's goal was to be more pure to b/x. However, Advanced Fantasy Rules for OSE are not pure B/X anyways, and the rules for optional classes for Ranger, Barbarian, etc. are free on the Basic Fantasy website, and I think the rules for them are better than the OSE versions (I haven't played any optional BF classes but I think I kind of like the fact that Basic Fantasy rangers don't become spell casters when they level-up, and barbarians are just fine with using magical weapons, etc.).

I would beware of knee-jerk reactions, and is it fair to also punish Necrotic Gnome for their partner's behavior? In any case, the Advanced Tomes for OSE are out of print now, so if anyone was on the fence, well you will have to wait awhile to buy those products anyway.

Quote from: Bob Smob on October 04, 2021, 08:04:36 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 04, 2021, 05:52:03 PM
Until Venger gets an apology and everyone they banned is reinstated, don't buy OSE. Buy Swords & Wizardry or Labyrinth Lord if you need to buy a clone instead.

And if not, buy RPGPundit products to support free speech!

(yes, I could have said buy Venger's stuff as he's the aggrieved party, but let's not go crazy here!)

I recommend Basic Fantasy Role-Playing also. It's not as pure to B/X as OSE, but I think that is actually a good thing, as I think the rule changes to B/X D&D show sound judgement, and are generally improvements. The changes are fairly subtle too, so it stays compatible with old TSR D&D products. OSE has superior presentation and it's goal was to be more pure to b/x. However, Advanced Fantasy Rules for OSE are not pure B/X anyways, and the rules for optional classes for Ranger, Barbarian, etc. are free on the Basic Fantasy website, and I think the rules for them are better than the OSE versions (I haven't played any optional BF classes but I think I kind of like the fact that Basic Fantasy rangers don't become spell casters when they level-up, and barbarians are just fine with using magical weapons, etc.).

I would beware of knee-jerk reactions, and is it fair to also punish Necrotic Gnome for their partner's behavior? In any case, the Advanced Tomes for OSE are out of print now, so if anyone was on the fence, well you will have to wait awhile to buy those products anyway.

I guess you either support both or punish both. As for Basic Fantasy, there was some discussion about their political actions as well on the Basic Fantasy vs. Clownfish TV Discussion Video at https://youtu.be/N4Aq55yLaPk

Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 04, 2021, 08:09:50 PM

Quote from: Bob Smob on October 04, 2021, 08:04:36 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 04, 2021, 05:52:03 PM
Until Venger gets an apology and everyone they banned is reinstated, don't buy OSE. Buy Swords & Wizardry or Labyrinth Lord if you need to buy a clone instead.

And if not, buy RPGPundit products to support free speech!

(yes, I could have said buy Venger's stuff as he's the aggrieved party, but let's not go crazy here!)

I recommend Basic Fantasy Role-Playing also. It's not as pure to B/X as OSE, but I think that is actually a good thing, as I think the rule changes to B/X D&D show sound judgement, and are generally improvements. The changes are fairly subtle too, so it stays compatible with old TSR D&D products. OSE has superior presentation and it's goal was to be more pure to b/x. However, Advanced Fantasy Rules for OSE are not pure B/X anyways, and the rules for optional classes for Ranger, Barbarian, etc. are free on the Basic Fantasy website, and I think the rules for them are better than the OSE versions (I haven't played any optional BF classes but I think I kind of like the fact that Basic Fantasy rangers don't become spell casters when they level-up, and barbarians are just fine with using magical weapons, etc.).

I would beware of knee-jerk reactions, and is it fair to also punish Necrotic Gnome for their partner's behavior? In any case, the Advanced Tomes for OSE are out of print now, so if anyone was on the fence, well you will have to wait awhile to buy those products anyway.

I guess you either support both or punish both. As for Basic Fantasy, there was some discussion about their political actions as well on the Basic Fantasy vs. Clownfish TV Discussion Video at https://youtu.be/N4Aq55yLaPk

Right, so Clownfish drags BF into something and they say "Hey don't drag us into this"

And that's exactly the same as baning ppl for liking stuff made by notsees.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 04, 2021, 08:22:36 PM

Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 04, 2021, 08:09:50 PM

Quote from: Bob Smob on October 04, 2021, 08:04:36 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 04, 2021, 05:52:03 PM
Until Venger gets an apology and everyone they banned is reinstated, don't buy OSE. Buy Swords & Wizardry or Labyrinth Lord if you need to buy a clone instead.

And if not, buy RPGPundit products to support free speech!

(yes, I could have said buy Venger's stuff as he's the aggrieved party, but let's not go crazy here!)

I recommend Basic Fantasy Role-Playing also. It's not as pure to B/X as OSE, but I think that is actually a good thing, as I think the rule changes to B/X D&D show sound judgement, and are generally improvements. The changes are fairly subtle too, so it stays compatible with old TSR D&D products. OSE has superior presentation and it's goal was to be more pure to b/x. However, Advanced Fantasy Rules for OSE are not pure B/X anyways, and the rules for optional classes for Ranger, Barbarian, etc. are free on the Basic Fantasy website, and I think the rules for them are better than the OSE versions (I haven't played any optional BF classes but I think I kind of like the fact that Basic Fantasy rangers don't become spell casters when they level-up, and barbarians are just fine with using magical weapons, etc.).

I would beware of knee-jerk reactions, and is it fair to also punish Necrotic Gnome for their partner's behavior? In any case, the Advanced Tomes for OSE are out of print now, so if anyone was on the fence, well you will have to wait awhile to buy those products anyway.

I guess you either support both or punish both. As for Basic Fantasy, there was some discussion about their political actions as well on the Basic Fantasy vs. Clownfish TV Discussion Video at https://youtu.be/N4Aq55yLaPk

Right, so Clownfish drags BF into something and they say "Hey don't drag us into this"

And that's exactly the same as baning ppl for liking stuff made by notsees.

The Basic Fantasy stuff was back in February if that matters, starts at 31:44 of the vid and goes something like:
-Clownfish makes a vid about bailing on 5e/WotC
-Picks BF as an alternative and puts a link on their channel to BF
-BF contacts Clownfish asking to keep them out of any politics
-Clownfish takes it personally as they thought they were doing BF a solid by highlighting it for being apolitical

So probably a nothing-burger overall, misunderstanding most likely

Funny enough at around 43:45 there is a chat comment that OSE is better than BF and the main dude just goes: "..problem is, OSE writes in that sjw format.." he never clarifies, but I wonder what he meant.
I always thought OSE art looked kinda woke sometimes, specifically when featuring their Rogues Gallery chars, but I'm nit-picky with art so ymmv.

Quote from: shroomster on October 05, 2021, 12:31:14 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 04, 2021, 08:22:36 PM

Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 04, 2021, 08:09:50 PM

Quote from: Bob Smob on October 04, 2021, 08:04:36 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 04, 2021, 05:52:03 PM
Until Venger gets an apology and everyone they banned is reinstated, don't buy OSE. Buy Swords & Wizardry or Labyrinth Lord if you need to buy a clone instead.

And if not, buy RPGPundit products to support free speech!

(yes, I could have said buy Venger's stuff as he's the aggrieved party, but let's not go crazy here!)

I recommend Basic Fantasy Role-Playing also. It's not as pure to B/X as OSE, but I think that is actually a good thing, as I think the rule changes to B/X D&D show sound judgement, and are generally improvements. The changes are fairly subtle too, so it stays compatible with old TSR D&D products. OSE has superior presentation and it's goal was to be more pure to b/x. However, Advanced Fantasy Rules for OSE are not pure B/X anyways, and the rules for optional classes for Ranger, Barbarian, etc. are free on the Basic Fantasy website, and I think the rules for them are better than the OSE versions (I haven't played any optional BF classes but I think I kind of like the fact that Basic Fantasy rangers don't become spell casters when they level-up, and barbarians are just fine with using magical weapons, etc.).

I would beware of knee-jerk reactions, and is it fair to also punish Necrotic Gnome for their partner's behavior? In any case, the Advanced Tomes for OSE are out of print now, so if anyone was on the fence, well you will have to wait awhile to buy those products anyway.

I guess you either support both or punish both. As for Basic Fantasy, there was some discussion about their political actions as well on the Basic Fantasy vs. Clownfish TV Discussion Video at https://youtu.be/N4Aq55yLaPk

Right, so Clownfish drags BF into something and they say "Hey don't drag us into this"

And that's exactly the same as baning ppl for liking stuff made by notsees.

The Basic Fantasy stuff was back in February if that matters, starts at 31:44 of the vid and goes something like:
-Clownfish makes a vid about bailing on 5e/WotC
-Picks BF as an alternative and puts a link on their channel to BF
-BF contacts Clownfish asking to keep them out of any politics
-Clownfish takes it personally as they thought they were doing BF a solid by highlighting it for being apolitical

So probably a nothing-burger overall, misunderstanding most likely

Funny enough at around 43:45 there is a chat comment that OSE is better than BF and the main dude just goes: "..problem is, OSE writes in that sjw format.." he never clarifies, but I wonder what he meant.
I always thought OSE art looked kinda woke sometimes, specifically when featuring their Rogues Gallery chars, but I'm nit-picky with art so ymmv.

Exactly, IF BF had contacted someone just for recommending their stuff because that someone was a notzee and BF didn't want notzees to play their game...

Then you would have grounds to calling them woke.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 12:47:19 AM

*snipped for space*

Exactly, IF BF had contacted someone just for recommending their stuff because that someone was a notzee and BF didn't want notzees to play their game...

Then you would have grounds to calling them woke.

I don't think anyone was trying to pin stuff on BF yet, just trying to find out more info. VhaidraSaga said there was some controversy in that video and that there might have been some political actions taken by BF, but the controversy was just both of them being "apolitically awkward" towards each other. In the end BF sold a bunch of copies through CF and CF found an apolitical alternative to WotC.

On another note people in Aaron's 2nd OSE vid saying they got emails from EF saying: "They(EF) do not agree with or support what the mod did and have outlined procedural changes to make such incidents less likely in the future."

Quote from: shroomster on October 05, 2021, 12:31:14 AM


Funny enough at around 43:45 there is a chat comment that OSE is better than BF and the main dude just goes: "..problem is, OSE writes in that sjw format.." he never clarifies, but I wonder what he meant.
I always thought OSE art looked kinda woke sometimes, specifically when featuring their Rogues Gallery chars, but I'm nit-picky with art so ymmv.

The main dude, Max, has a pet peeve about using "they" or "their" as a singular pronoun in instances where gender is unspecified. OSE uses singular their and they. Maybe that is what he meant by "sjw format." I don't buy that makes it an "sjw format," and being so uptight about it strikes me as being a grammar notsee.

Beyond the Rogues Gallery art OSE art in the main books is varied, and generally great. There are whimsical fairy tale pieces, sword & sorcery themes, old AD&D good guys getting their ass handed to them style pieces, classic high fantasy, etc., etc.

Quote from: shroomster on October 05, 2021, 02:49:01 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 12:47:19 AM

*snipped for space*

Exactly, IF BF had contacted someone just for recommending their stuff because that someone was a notzee and BF didn't want notzees to play their game...

Then you would have grounds to calling them woke.

I don't think anyone was trying to pin stuff on BF yet, just trying to find out more info. VhaidraSaga said there was some controversy in that video and that there might have been some political actions taken by BF, but the controversy was just both of them being "apolitically awkward" towards each other. In the end BF sold a bunch of copies through CF and CF found an apolitical alternative to WotC.

On another note people in Aaron's 2nd OSE vid saying they got emails from EF saying: "They(EF) do not agree with or support what the mod did and have outlined procedural changes to make such incidents less likely in the future."

Clownfish/Basic Fantasy big teenage soap opera nothing. Chris Gonnerman of Basic Fantasy deserves credit for making a open source game system for free. The rule book, and many supplements, can be purchased at or near cost, so even if Gonnerman was responsible for something truly horrid, such as kitten juggling, none of your money would be going to support his vile hobby.

The EF thing looks like nothing more than a prissy, petty bitch mod going rogue -- not doing something that reflected on the company, and not even an employee then?

I think I will continue to recommend both Basic Fantasy and OSE then. Those are the two rpg systems I played the most, and had the most fun with.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 12:47:19 AM

Quote
The EF thing looks like nothing more than a prissy, petty bitch mod going rogue -- not doing something that reflected on the company, and not even an employee then?

I think I will continue to recommend both Basic Fantasy and OSE then. Those are the two rpg systems I played the most, and had the most fun with.

Herein lies the difference between the "woke" and normal gamers. The woke would condemn an entire company without evidence or research for the actions of one rouge agent.

Kudos to everyone who has taken the time and effort to get to the truth.

[quote author=

Quote from: Jason Coplen on October 04, 2021, 06:11:21 PM
I'd have never bought any OSE if I knew they were this fucked up. At least EF is total garbage, which is sad. We need fewer red listed stuff, not more.

And, yeah, Fuck Venger! 

I agree, I hope this gets resolved in a satisfactory way

I agree id prefer fewer red listed products, i've been following this giving all parties a reasonable amount of time before jumping to any conclusions. From the comments it looks like EF may do something about it, and the reply i got from necrotic gnome was hopeful. I've defended OSE in the past if anything because it made b/x easier to read instead of that blurry mess on dtrpg

King Arthur Pendragon 6th Edition The Path to Wokedom.

QuoteKing Arthur changes the world, slowly to be sure, but in general for the better. Bloodthirsty warlords, selfish sorcerers, and even the environment itself in the form of the Wasteland, all conspire against these changes. The Player-knights are an important part of the struggle for the betterment of Britain.

The improvements in the lives of women and commoners are hallmarks of Arthur's efforts. Ladies make great gains both socially and legally over the course of his reign. Women may become knights if they wish, gain the power to choose their own husbands, and, whether knight or noblewoman, eventually may inherit their due estates and take care of them without a warden. Commoners are among King Arthur's earliest supporters, and he even forms Parliament to give them a place to exercise their powers alongside the clergy and lords.

The Gamemaster decides how much resistance hinders these changes. You may of course decide on presenting a fantasy realm that is better than our modern world, with fairness, justice, and goodwill everywhere. However, that attitude significantly alters the stories, and what the stories mean. The best balance comes when the world is at first medieval, reactionary, and reluctant to change; yet slowly yields under the influence of the Player-knights and their allies in Arthur's court working to create a luminous realm.

Quote from: Gagarth on October 05, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
King Arthur Pendragon 6th Edition The Path to Wokedom.

QuoteKing Arthur changes the world, slowly to be sure, but in general for the better. Bloodthirsty warlords, selfish sorcerers, and even the environment itself in the form of the Wasteland, all conspire against these changes. The Player-knights are an important part of the struggle for the betterment of Britain.

The improvements in the lives of women and commoners are hallmarks of Arthur's efforts. Ladies make great gains both socially and legally over the course of his reign. Women may become knights if they wish, gain the power to choose their own husbands, and, whether knight or noblewoman, eventually may inherit their due estates and take care of them without a warden. Commoners are among King Arthur's earliest supporters, and he even forms Parliament to give them a place to exercise their powers alongside the clergy and lords.

The Gamemaster decides how much resistance hinders these changes. You may of course decide on presenting a fantasy realm that is better than our modern world, with fairness, justice, and goodwill everywhere. However, that attitude significantly alters the stories, and what the stories mean. The best balance comes when the world is at first medieval, reactionary, and reluctant to change; yet slowly yields under the influence of the Player-knights and their allies in Arthur's court working to create a luminous realm.

This is just awful. Reads like Pendradgon is now just a piece of masturbatory fan-fiction where the goal is to see 1200 years of social development occur in a couple dozen game sessions. No real desire on the part of the game to engage with the legends.

Quote from: Gagarth on October 05, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
King Arthur Pendragon 6th Edition The Path to Wokedom.

QuoteKing Arthur changes the world, slowly to be sure, but in general for the better. Bloodthirsty warlords, selfish sorcerers, and even the environment itself in the form of the Wasteland, all conspire against these changes. The Player-knights are an important part of the struggle for the betterment of Britain.

The improvements in the lives of women and commoners are hallmarks of Arthur's efforts. Ladies make great gains both socially and legally over the course of his reign. Women may become knights if they wish, gain the power to choose their own husbands, and, whether knight or noblewoman, eventually may inherit their due estates and take care of them without a warden. Commoners are among King Arthur's earliest supporters, and he even forms Parliament to give them a place to exercise their powers alongside the clergy and lords.

The Gamemaster decides how much resistance hinders these changes. You may of course decide on presenting a fantasy realm that is better than our modern world, with fairness, justice, and goodwill everywhere. However, that attitude significantly alters the stories, and what the stories mean. The best balance comes when the world is at first medieval, reactionary, and reluctant to change; yet slowly yields under the influence of the Player-knights and their allies in Arthur's court working to create a luminous realm.

Thanks, I hate it.

Me thinks it's high time for an OSR Arthurian game based on Lion and Dragon?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 04:23:44 PM

Quote from: Gagarth on October 05, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
King Arthur Pendragon 6th Edition The Path to Wokedom.

QuoteKing Arthur changes the world, slowly to be sure, but in general for the better. Bloodthirsty warlords, selfish sorcerers, and even the environment itself in the form of the Wasteland, all conspire against these changes. The Player-knights are an important part of the struggle for the betterment of Britain.

The improvements in the lives of women and commoners are hallmarks of Arthur's efforts. Ladies make great gains both socially and legally over the course of his reign. Women may become knights if they wish, gain the power to choose their own husbands, and, whether knight or noblewoman, eventually may inherit their due estates and take care of them without a warden. Commoners are among King Arthur's earliest supporters, and he even forms Parliament to give them a place to exercise their powers alongside the clergy and lords.

The Gamemaster decides how much resistance hinders these changes. You may of course decide on presenting a fantasy realm that is better than our modern world, with fairness, justice, and goodwill everywhere. However, that attitude significantly alters the stories, and what the stories mean. The best balance comes when the world is at first medieval, reactionary, and reluctant to change; yet slowly yields under the influence of the Player-knights and their allies in Arthur's court working to create a luminous realm.

Thanks, I hate it.

Me thinks it's high time for an OSR Arthurian game based on Lion and Dragon?

There's no reason you can't run an Arthurian campaign with Lion & Dragon as-is. The default period for Lion & Dragon is the mid-15th century, which is precisely the period of the Morte D'Arthur. And although the latter is about a King that supposedly lived 1000 years ago, the culture as presented in that story is 15th century culture.