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Author Topic: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies  (Read 620662 times)

Shasarak

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1545 on: September 16, 2021, 04:14:52 PM »
So much for free speech, hu....

What’s the point of having free speech when you have no reading comprehension?
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Mithgarthr

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1546 on: September 16, 2021, 04:15:02 PM »

Not sure I can think of a single person on the left who has engaged in Palingenetic ultranationalism.

Fascism came from the right of Stalin but it didn't come from the right. Or the center.

This is Ahistorical.

While there is some basis to the idea that Italian fascism moved to the right over time. And that it is true that, pre-fascism, Benito Mussolini was involved in left-wing politics, there is no basis to the idea that Italian fascism was left-wing.

From the outset fascism:

-was in alliance with traditional right-wing elites working to break up trade unions and kill left-wing organisers
- included right wing traditionalists and far-right futurists.

The Nazis were even more clearly right-wing,, though it did have a small number of people who believed in a left-wing conception of Nazism.

Those people behind that idea were all murdered during the night of long knives.

Hitler, like  Mussolini, came to power thanks to his alliance with right-wing elites.

I suggest you actually read a history of fascism before you make claims about it. A good starting point would be Robert O. Paxton's the Anatomy of Fascism.
You're both incorrect. Fascism is a variation on syndicalism, which is a type of socialism that focused on worker collectives taking control of the locations where they worked. It is thus very leftist, and you can see it in the tripartite model of Italian fascism, where the government, workers (unions), and businesses were supposed to jointly run industry. (Though it effectively defaulted to government control, because the government and only the government has control over the laws, the police, the judiciary, and the exclusive use of force.)

Syndicalism wasn't an intellectual movement, and was heavily focused on action. Workers rise up, and that kind of thing. That's why it melded well with the nationalistic elements of Mussolini's fascism, and the chauvinism. You can see strains of both syndicalism, and nationalism in the bravado of the black and later brown shirts.

There's no way to honestly appraise fascism and come to the conclusion it's not heavily drawn from the left wing of political thought. There's also no way to honestly appraise fascism and come to the conclusion it's not heavily drawn from the right wing of political thought, either. It's a mix of both, but not a homogeneous one. The individual threads that make it up can still be clearly distinguished, and the only people who deny this are partisans or apologists, who are trying to distance their favored end of the political axis from some of the worst atrocities in human history. The mess with the definition of fascism comes from decades of this, leading to nonsensically broad and meaningless definitions, like Umberto Eco's (great writer, shit political theorist).

The truth is the dexter v. sinister axis doesn't work, and even the horseshoe analogy is just a sloppy patch. The real difference isn't between the left and the right, but between liberty and collectivist central control. The latter always seems to lead to totalitarianism, of which both fascism and communism are minor variants (I'm using communism as a reference to the third of Marx's stages).

I'd recommend John T. Flynn's As We Go Marching and Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism.

The discussion of historical fascism is off topic, so I'm dropping it now. But I think it's relevant to the list, because this is the distinction you (Eris_Shrugged) and others (like hoshisabi) are missing. You're painting it as red vs. blue, and it's not. While there are different views of what the list should cover, I think it should be about bad actors. This can be people who personally did something like try to burn down a church, but the reason it was started, and the most common category in the toxic environment of today, is people who are making dictates about who is allowed to play, and who is not allowed to play.

Telling potential fans to fuck off because they voted for X, for instance. It doesn't matter who does it, or whether they're red or blue (or gray, which is a more accurate label for a lot of posters here). If they're actively advocating for the exclusion of broad groups of people, that's wrong. And the root of that wrong is the same root that leads to totalitarianism: The impulse to impose your will on others, and dictate how they can associate.

At its simplest: Do you allow anyone to play at your table, regardless of their race or politics? Do you judge them based on their individual behavior, and kick them because they misbehaved, not because of their color or who they voted for? That's the ideal. Welcome everyone, but once you know them, judge them as individuals instead of based on some group identity.

This is quite possibly the best post in this entire thread. Well said, man. Well said.

PonchoGoblin

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1547 on: September 16, 2021, 05:02:23 PM »
Honestly, I shouldn't really have bothered here in the first place, I am ill-equipped to be here. I am too clueless to catch on some of the subtle barbs, I am too sincere to maneuver with some of the conversational dances being performed, and I feel bad for being disrespectful even when I'm feeling a bit of the heat being thrown at me.
Don't worry about it. None of your posts have been disrespectful.

re: SJG: Way, way upthread I lobbied for SJW to be green, since they Resisted the Wokeists and refused to cancel Frog God Games. Also, Phil Reed got banned from TBP (temp?) for trying to explain that the disad "slave mentality" in Gurps has nothing to do with slavery. But Ocule mentioned something about an "October Surprise" (?) and kept them at yellow.

The October Surprise was a big thing (forget if it was 2016 or 2020, I think it was 2020) where a bunch of designers and writers (SJG included) signed on to push to vote for Biden? (Or Hillary if this was 2016) and to actively encourage it in their games and communities. At least, that's the gist as far as I'm aware of it.
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PonchoGoblin

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1548 on: September 16, 2021, 05:07:42 PM »
Also to the disingenuous socks, you're trying so hard you're wearing a hole in yourself. It's kinda sad, but also humorous.

Varg should remain red (as if that was any question, just shows that you're more hurt that people you like are there next to him if you think otherwise), and evidence on the Zak S would be nice (especially as a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty).

To Ocule, keep up the good fight and don't let someone these idiots get to you. Same with everyone else here. Almost feels like the socks are intentionally trying to incite bs so they can screencap and be like "see the Nazis are calling for violence/racism/mysoginy/etc."
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oggsmash

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1549 on: September 16, 2021, 05:08:53 PM »
Honestly, I shouldn't really have bothered here in the first place, I am ill-equipped to be here. I am too clueless to catch on some of the subtle barbs, I am too sincere to maneuver with some of the conversational dances being performed, and I feel bad for being disrespectful even when I'm feeling a bit of the heat being thrown at me.
Don't worry about it. None of your posts have been disrespectful.

re: SJG: Way, way upthread I lobbied for SJW to be green, since they Resisted the Wokeists and refused to cancel Frog God Games. Also, Phil Reed got banned from TBP (temp?) for trying to explain that the disad "slave mentality" in Gurps has nothing to do with slavery. But Ocule mentioned something about an "October Surprise" (?) and kept them at yellow.

The October Surprise was a big thing (forget if it was 2016 or 2020, I think it was 2020) where a bunch of designers and writers (SJG included) signed on to push to vote for Biden? (Or Hillary if this was 2016) and to actively encourage it in their games and communities. At least, that's the gist as far as I'm aware of it.

  I know the 2020 one had some pretty harsh tones as to who people *should* vote for with the language it used(implying white supremacy is "on the rise" and such bullshit).  I think that might be where people slid SJG over towards yellow.   I consider him green to be honest.  I also can see why if Ocule wants to consider him yellow, he can make that case.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 05:11:03 PM by oggsmash »

PonchoGoblin

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1550 on: September 16, 2021, 05:11:35 PM »
Honestly, I shouldn't really have bothered here in the first place, I am ill-equipped to be here. I am too clueless to catch on some of the subtle barbs, I am too sincere to maneuver with some of the conversational dances being performed, and I feel bad for being disrespectful even when I'm feeling a bit of the heat being thrown at me.
Don't worry about it. None of your posts have been disrespectful.

re: SJG: Way, way upthread I lobbied for SJW to be green, since they Resisted the Wokeists and refused to cancel Frog God Games. Also, Phil Reed got banned from TBP (temp?) for trying to explain that the disad "slave mentality" in Gurps has nothing to do with slavery. But Ocule mentioned something about an "October Surprise" (?) and kept them at yellow.

The October Surprise was a big thing (forget if it was 2016 or 2020, I think it was 2020) where a bunch of designers and writers (SJG included) signed on to push to vote for Biden? (Or Hillary if this was 2016) and to actively encourage it in their games and communities. At least, that's the gist as far as I'm aware of it.

  I know the 2020 one had some pretty harsh tones as to who people *should* vote for with the language it used.  I think that might be where people slid SJG over towards yellow.   I consider him green to be honest.  I also can see why if Ocule wants to consider him yellow, he can make that case.

Fair enough, I'm also not too familiar with SJG in modern day as, afaik, they pretty just produce Munchkin (and I know people have clamored for a new GURPS edition for awhile)
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oggsmash

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1551 on: September 16, 2021, 05:16:46 PM »
Honestly, I shouldn't really have bothered here in the first place, I am ill-equipped to be here. I am too clueless to catch on some of the subtle barbs, I am too sincere to maneuver with some of the conversational dances being performed, and I feel bad for being disrespectful even when I'm feeling a bit of the heat being thrown at me.
Don't worry about it. None of your posts have been disrespectful.

re: SJG: Way, way upthread I lobbied for SJW to be green, since they Resisted the Wokeists and refused to cancel Frog God Games. Also, Phil Reed got banned from TBP (temp?) for trying to explain that the disad "slave mentality" in Gurps has nothing to do with slavery. But Ocule mentioned something about an "October Surprise" (?) and kept them at yellow.

The October Surprise was a big thing (forget if it was 2016 or 2020, I think it was 2020) where a bunch of designers and writers (SJG included) signed on to push to vote for Biden? (Or Hillary if this was 2016) and to actively encourage it in their games and communities. At least, that's the gist as far as I'm aware of it.

  I know the 2020 one had some pretty harsh tones as to who people *should* vote for with the language it used.  I think that might be where people slid SJG over towards yellow.   I consider him green to be honest.  I also can see why if Ocule wants to consider him yellow, he can make that case.

Fair enough, I'm also not too familiar with SJG in modern day as, afaik, they pretty just produce Munchkin (and I know people have clamored for a new GURPS edition for awhile)

  Their forums stay on task, and they are NOT interested in hearing anyone's political hot take from any direction.   They still produce quite a bit of digital stuff for GURPS, and I honestly do not see that many people asking for a new edition of GURPS (well other than an edition where those 1 second rounds are changed), I do see a good number of people asking for more specific game genres "powered by gurps" similar to what they did with dungeon fantasy.    I have also not seen SJ himself do too much to make political noise, so honestly I can stick to enjoying what his company produces (His line editor as well, seems to stay on the topic of games and that is all I have ever seen them talk about on the forum).   

   Their forum has a very apolitical tone, for that alone I see them as green.

PonchoGoblin

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1552 on: September 16, 2021, 05:20:20 PM »
That reminds me, Hunters Entertainment (Kids on Bikes, Kids on Brooms, Altered Carbon) should be red. They have a whole section dedicated to character pronouns (even a whole like on the sheet) and making sure you aren't "covering any bad topics that nobody wants to touch by filling out a form" in Kids on Brooms, and I'm assuming Kids on Bikes is the same. Also they make mention of Prom and Pundits comment on the SJW obsession with Prom just kinda hit me...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 05:26:44 PM by PonchoGoblin »
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oggsmash

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1553 on: September 16, 2021, 05:29:04 PM »
That reminds me, Hunters Entertainment (Kids on Bikes, Kids on Brooms, Altered Carbon) should be red. They have a whole section dedicated to character pronouns (even a whole like on the sheet) and making sure you aren't "covering any bad topics that nobody wants to touch by filling out a form" in Kids on Brooms, and I'm assuming Kids on Bikes is the same. Also they make mention of Prom and Pundits comment on the SJW obsession with Prom just kinda hit me...

   I honestly think any rpg that involves rules around prom should likely be red off the bat.

PonchoGoblin

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1554 on: September 16, 2021, 05:35:50 PM »
That reminds me, Hunters Entertainment (Kids on Bikes, Kids on Brooms, Altered Carbon) should be red. They have a whole section dedicated to character pronouns (even a whole like on the sheet) and making sure you aren't "covering any bad topics that nobody wants to touch by filling out a form" in Kids on Brooms, and I'm assuming Kids on Bikes is the same. Also they make mention of Prom and Pundits comment on the SJW obsession with Prom just kinda hit me...

   I honestly think any rpg that involves rules around prom should likely be red off the bat.

Or, in the case of Hunters Entertainment with Kids on Brooms and Alice is Missing, rules on trans children...
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Aglondir

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1555 on: September 16, 2021, 05:38:21 PM »
Thanks for the info about Gurps and the October Surprise.

As for a new edition of Gurps...

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/there-will-not-be-a-gurps-5th-edition/msg1169541/#msg1169541

oggsmash

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1556 on: September 16, 2021, 05:44:20 PM »
Thanks for the info about Gurps and the October Surprise.

As for a new edition of Gurps...

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/there-will-not-be-a-gurps-5th-edition/msg1169541/#msg1169541

  To me, signing onto that list was not exactly yellow worthy, but I can understand with the blurb at the top of the list where it can be seen as pretty adversarial.  Like I said, I still think of them as green.   

Ghostmaker

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1557 on: September 16, 2021, 06:29:50 PM »
That reminds me, Hunters Entertainment (Kids on Bikes, Kids on Brooms, Altered Carbon) should be red. They have a whole section dedicated to character pronouns (even a whole like on the sheet) and making sure you aren't "covering any bad topics that nobody wants to touch by filling out a form" in Kids on Brooms, and I'm assuming Kids on Bikes is the same. Also they make mention of Prom and Pundits comment on the SJW obsession with Prom just kinda hit me...

   I honestly think any rpg that involves rules around prom should likely be red off the bat.
I would make an exception for an RPG that is explicitly centered around high school.

Teenagers From Outer Space, for example.

DocJones

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1558 on: September 16, 2021, 07:09:09 PM »
Fair enough, I'm also not too familiar with SJG in modern day as, afaik, they pretty just produce Munchkin (and I know people have clamored for a new GURPS edition for awhile)
They released  The Fantasy Trip a year ago.  A new version of Dungeon Fantasy a couple years back, and this year the Girl Genius RPG.
Several new Gurps supplements  Gurps Future History, Dungeon Fantasy Career Guide, etc.

DocJones

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Re: [List] TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies
« Reply #1559 on: September 16, 2021, 07:18:13 PM »
  I honestly think any rpg that involves rules around prom should likely be red off the bat.
Do  you think WoTC picked college prom  (which AFAIK don't exist - outside of May ball in some European Unis) in order to explore kink sexual themes?