Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:40:21 PM
So much for free speech, hu....

You have to follow rules, in thbis forum politics are only allowed if they are regarding RPGs.

If you want a general politics discussion there's a subforum where that's allowed, and as long as you don't start spousing racist views almost nothing will get you banned, so yes, we do have free speech here, go to TBP and try to say the mildest "right wing" thing we can say here: For example that someone is innocent until proven guilty. See how much it takes them to bann you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2021, 12:35:24 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on September 16, 2021, 12:16:01 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 11:38:09 AM

Not sure I can think of a single person on the left who has engaged in Palingenetic ultranationalism.

Fascism came from the right of Stalin but it didn't come from the right. Or the center.

Dude, you, and everybody best drop the politics in this forum, take it to Pundit's forum that will get you banned or at least thread banned, and me thinks the disingenuous twats are trying to get someone banned or the thread closed.

This goes for everybody, including the disingenuos twats, politics are only allowed in this forum if they have to do with RPGs.

More seriously, this thread is political from start to finish, why is it allowed?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2021, 12:44:30 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:40:21 PM
So much for free speech, hu....

You have to follow rules, in thbis forum politics are only allowed if they are regarding RPGs.

If you want a general politics discussion there's a subforum where that's allowed, and as long as you don't start spousing racist views almost nothing will get you banned, so yes, we do have free speech here, go to TBP and try to say the mildest "right wing" thing we can say here: For example that someone is innocent until proven guilty. See how much it takes them to bann you.

So you are in favour of rules based restrictions on free speech?

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:45:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2021, 12:35:24 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on September 16, 2021, 12:16:01 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 11:38:09 AM

Not sure I can think of a single person on the left who has engaged in Palingenetic ultranationalism.

Fascism came from the right of Stalin but it didn't come from the right. Or the center.

Dude, you, and everybody best drop the politics in this forum, take it to Pundit's forum that will get you banned or at least thread banned, and me thinks the disingenuous twats are trying to get someone banned or the thread closed.

This goes for everybody, including the disingenuos twats, politics are only allowed in this forum if they have to do with RPGs.

More seriously, this thread is political from start to finish, why is it allowed?

What part of: "politics are only allowed in this forum if they have to do with RPGs" you don't understand?

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:46:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2021, 12:44:30 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:40:21 PM
So much for free speech, hu....

You have to follow rules, in thbis forum politics are only allowed if they are regarding RPGs.

If you want a general politics discussion there's a subforum where that's allowed, and as long as you don't start spousing racist views almost nothing will get you banned, so yes, we do have free speech here, go to TBP and try to say the mildest "right wing" thing we can say here: For example that someone is innocent until proven guilty. See how much it takes them to bann you.

So you are in favour of rules based restrictions on free speech?

It depends, where? who is doing the restrictions? What are those restrictions?

Here you can espouse left wing opinions and not get banned, you can even have wholly political discusions if you're in the correct sub-forum.

So yes, I'm okay with those restrictions. If you're not then skipp and hop over to TBP where I can't espouse any "right wing" opinion like: burning books is bad.

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:29:55 PM
This is Ahistorical.

While there is some basis to the idea that Italian fascism moved to the right over time. And that it is true that, pre-fascism, Benito Mussolini was involved in left-wing politics, there is no basis to the idea that Italian fascism was left-wing.

From the outset fascism:

-was in alliance with traditional right-wing elites working to break up trade unions and kill left-wing organisers
- included right wing traditionalists and far-right futurists.

The Nazis were even more clearly right-wing,, though it did have a small number of people who believed in a left-wing conception of Nazism.

Those people behind that idea were all murdered during the night of long knives.

Hitler, like  Mussolini, came to power thanks to his alliance with right-wing elites.

I suggest you actually read a history of fascism before you make claims about it. A good starting point would be Robert O. Paxton's the Anatomy of Fascism.

My dude, it must be said that your posts are mind-numbingly boring. This kind of topic has been rehashed on the internet over and over for decades now. Your style of argument is exceedingly linear and quite dull.

The list is imperfect and it's very likely that no three people will agree with every entry. But it stands for something and does a pretty good job for what it is.

Go outside, meet people, breathe fresh air.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2021, 01:05:42 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:46:25 PM
So you are in favour of rules based restrictions on free speech?

It depends, where? who is doing the restrictions? What are those restrictions?

Here you can espouse left wing opinions and not get banned, you can even have wholly political discusions if you're in the correct sub-forum.

I agree that you can espouse left wing opinions here - and in general, I like it here on these forums. But Pundit can and does ban people based on their political stances. He recently banned SonTodoGatos for antisemitism, for example. And that's his right. It's his forum, and other people don't have a right to do whatever they like on his forum.

SonTodoGatos has a right to espouse his views in general - whether he is antisemitic or not, but he doesn't have a right to post on Pundit's forum without Pundit's permission.

Quote from: jhkim on September 16, 2021, 01:37:07 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2021, 01:05:42 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:46:25 PM
So you are in favour of rules based restrictions on free speech?

It depends, where? who is doing the restrictions? What are those restrictions?

Here you can espouse left wing opinions and not get banned, you can even have wholly political discusions if you're in the correct sub-forum.

I agree that you can espouse left wing opinions here - and in general, I like it here on these forums. But Pundit can and does ban people based on their political stances. He recently banned SonTodoGatos for antisemitism, for example. And that's his right. It's his forum, and other people don't have a right to do whatever they like on his forum.

SonTodoGatos has a right to espouse his views in general - whether he is antisemitic or not, but he doesn't have a right to post on Pundit's forum without Pundit's permission.

So you would allow his anti-semitism if this were your forum?

Quote from: jhkim on September 16, 2021, 01:37:07 PMI agree that you can espouse left wing opinions here - and in general, I like it here on these forums. But Pundit can and does ban people based on their political stances. He recently banned SonTodoGatos for antisemitism, for example. And that's his right. It's his forum, and other people don't have a right to do whatever they like on his forum.

Is antisemitism a political stance?  It's more "being an asshole," really, and there are too many examples from every side of the political polyhedron to count.

I think we're getting a little too far off track here.

The question about Zak S. is legitimate. But I'd like to see receipts on the 'he encourages followers to harass people' accusation.

(You might want to produce them, btw. Zak has been known to frequent the forum here. And he wrung a settlement out of 'Ettin' from TBP over accusations made.)

Pundit seems to give an extra inch to those with opposing views when it comes to veering too far into politics. That aside, some of this shit from our new sock army is way past what any reasonable person would define as politics having nothing to do with TTRPGs.

And just know, if you cannot get it together, when you are banned it will not be because you were censored or your voice canceled. It will be because you never wanted to be part of the community to begin with. This is evidenced by 1) not reading the fucking stickies on the forum which clearly state the rules, something everybody does when they join a community for...what... 25 years now? and 2) having dozens posts, all in this thread, ignoring any and all other opportunities to interact with others over the last couple weeks in other threads.

So yeah, you are here for activism. Eventually your mask is going to fall when you don't get what you want, and we'll see you get banned for it or or for going out with some racist tantrum. Seems to be 50/50 lately.

The truth is this list uses filters in a different way than I would. But Ocule has been very clear what filters have been applied. And because I am an adult, I can process the useful parts from the not useful ones and make my own buying decisions. I don't need to change it, or him, or whatever it is you are fighting for.

I am glad the list has brought in new members here who ARE posting in other threads and increasing the size of the community regardless of political affiliation. Some of the new blood is very much appreciated. The rest...just get on with it before your inevitable exit.

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 11:59:30 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 16, 2021, 11:48:08 AM
If some of the retards here would READ the whole thread, not just skip to the end, they'd see the part where Pundit, Ocule, and others laid out WHY Varg was on the redlist and that he deserved to be there.

Culminating, I might add, in Pundit banhammering two people for blatant anti-Semitism.

But we're the Nazis?

Who has called you a Nazi again?

You did. Barely two hours ago.

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 09:54:24 AM
I mean, one of those things is not like the others.

Varg being in RED is laughable. He is diametrically opposed to EVERY other publisher or creator in that section.

Politically he aligns vastly more strongly with people like pundit and grim.

Just try to explain how saying "Politically [a neo-Nazi] aligns vastly more strongly with [your side]" isn't calling everyone you oppose a Nazi.

Incidentally, the idea that a list of people who behave badly can only include people whose politics you agree with is... I'm struggling for a word. Sociopathic?

Quote from: Pat on September 16, 2021, 02:21:50 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 11:59:30 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 16, 2021, 11:48:08 AM
If some of the retards here would READ the whole thread, not just skip to the end, they'd see the part where Pundit, Ocule, and others laid out WHY Varg was on the redlist and that he deserved to be there.

Culminating, I might add, in Pundit banhammering two people for blatant anti-Semitism.

But we're the Nazis?

Who has called you a Nazi again?

You did. Barely two hours ago.

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 09:54:24 AM
I mean, one of those things is not like the others.

Varg being in RED is laughable. He is diametrically opposed to EVERY other publisher or creator in that section.

Politically he aligns vastly more strongly with people like pundit and grim.

Just try to explain how saying "Politically [a neo-Nazi] aligns vastly more strongly with [your side]" isn't calling everyone you oppose a Nazi.

Incidentally, the idea that a list of people who behave badly can only include people whose politics you agree with is... I'm struggling for a word. Sociopathic?

Not forgeting that Pundit has a virulent hate towards anti-semites and Grim is a "Libertarian"-Socialist.

But they think it's an enemies list, therefore putting Varg there must mean Ocule thinks SJWs and him are the same.

And I'm not gonna get into that argument here, if they want to have it then I'm happy to try and create a thread in Pundit's forum.

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:29:55 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on September 16, 2021, 12:16:01 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 11:38:09 AM

Not sure I can think of a single person on the left who has engaged in Palingenetic ultranationalism.

Fascism came from the right of Stalin but it didn't come from the right. Or the center.

This is Ahistorical.

While there is some basis to the idea that Italian fascism moved to the right over time. And that it is true that, pre-fascism, Benito Mussolini was involved in left-wing politics, there is no basis to the idea that Italian fascism was left-wing.

From the outset fascism:

-was in alliance with traditional right-wing elites working to break up trade unions and kill left-wing organisers
- included right wing traditionalists and far-right futurists.

The Nazis were even more clearly right-wing,, though it did have a small number of people who believed in a left-wing conception of Nazism.

Those people behind that idea were all murdered during the night of long knives.

Hitler, like  Mussolini, came to power thanks to his alliance with right-wing elites.

I suggest you actually read a history of fascism before you make claims about it. A good starting point would be Robert O. Paxton's the Anatomy of Fascism.

You're both incorrect. Fascism is a variation on syndicalism, which is a type of socialism that focused on worker collectives taking control of the locations where they worked. It is thus very leftist, and you can see it in the tripartite model of Italian fascism, where the government, workers (unions), and businesses were supposed to jointly run industry. (Though it effectively defaulted to government control, because the government and only the government has control over the laws, the police, the judiciary, and the exclusive use of force.)

Syndicalism wasn't an intellectual movement, and was heavily focused on action. Workers rise up, and that kind of thing. That's why it melded well with the nationalistic elements of Mussolini's fascism, and the chauvinism. You can see strains of both syndicalism, and nationalism in the bravado of the black and later brown shirts.

There's no way to honestly appraise fascism and come to the conclusion it's not heavily drawn from the left wing of political thought. There's also no way to honestly appraise fascism and come to the conclusion it's not heavily drawn from the right wing of political thought, either. It's a mix of both, but not a homogeneous one. The individual threads that make it up can still be clearly distinguished, and the only people who deny this are partisans or apologists, who are trying to distance their favored end of the political axis from some of the worst atrocities in human history. The mess with the definition of fascism comes from decades of this, leading to nonsensically broad and meaningless definitions, like Umberto Eco's (great writer, shit political theorist).

The truth is the dexter v. sinister axis doesn't work, and even the horseshoe analogy is just a sloppy patch. The real difference isn't between the left and the right, but between liberty and collectivist central control. The latter always seems to lead to totalitarianism, of which both fascism and communism are minor variants (I'm using communism as a reference to the third of Marx's stages).

I'd recommend John T. Flynn's As We Go Marching and Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism.

The discussion of historical fascism is off topic, so I'm dropping it now. But I think it's relevant to the list, because this is the distinction you (Eris_Shrugged) and others (like hoshisabi) are missing. You're painting it as red vs. blue, and it's not. While there are different views of what the list should cover, I think it should be about bad actors. This can be people who personally did something like try to burn down a church, but the reason it was started, and the most common category in the toxic environment of today, is people who are making dictates about who is allowed to play, and who is not allowed to play.

Telling potential fans to fuck off because they voted for X, for instance. It doesn't matter who does it, or whether they're red or blue (or gray, which is a more accurate label for a lot of posters here). If they're actively advocating for the exclusion of broad groups of people, that's wrong. And the root of that wrong is the same root that leads to totalitarianism: The impulse to impose your will on others, and dictate how they can associate.

At its simplest: Do you allow anyone to play at your table, regardless of their race or politics? Do you judge them based on their individual behavior, and kick them because they misbehaved, not because of their color or who they voted for? That's the ideal. Welcome everyone, but once you know them, judge them as individuals instead of based on some group identity.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 16, 2021, 12:21:29 PM
Honestly, I shouldn't really have bothered here in the first place, I am ill-equipped to be here. I am too clueless to catch on some of the subtle barbs, I am too sincere to maneuver with some of the conversational dances being performed, and I feel bad for being disrespectful even when I'm feeling a bit of the heat being thrown at me.

Don't worry about it. None of your posts have been disrespectful.

re: SJG: Way, way upthread I lobbied for SJW to be green, since they Resisted the Wokeists and refused to cancel Frog God Games. Also, Phil Reed got banned from TBP (temp?) for trying to explain that the disad "slave mentality" in Gurps has nothing to do with slavery. But Ocule mentioned something about an "October Surprise" (?) and kept them at yellow.