Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 02:34:34 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on September 08, 2021, 01:53:10 PM

Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 01:47:57 PM

Quote from: therealjcm on September 08, 2021, 01:40:41 PM

Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 01:23:46 PM
The real question is though, do I include creators that are so small i doubt their own mothers even know they still exist?

If you start trying to track every mentally ill twatter who ever "sold" 10 copies of their pwyw supplement on drivethru then I think the list would lose some of its value. Maybe a requirement that they have at least a single copper bestseller before inclusion or some other criteria would be useful.

Yeah, there needs to be a minimum bar to keep it relevant.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on September 08, 2021, 01:43:28 PM
Still Waiting for Erik Tenkar to be placed on the Red List for the "anti-consumer behavior" (which is specifically listed by the list's author as enough to keep one out of both the Green and Yellow Lists) of getting a product pulled from OBS for content he didn't like. As I pointed out earlier, Tenkar was called out vociferously on this very forum.

Also look how upset the SJWs are lol
https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/On-The-Red-RPG-List-by-CogswellDesign/88048921.XNZKR

I need more information on Tenkar before putting him on the list i've seen conflicting information about him. Also that is freakin hilarious, thats like being proud your restaurant couldn't pass a health inspection and wearing it like a badge of honor. Big mad

Bro, I literally linked the thread on here where everyone was decrying his actions. You're not trying very hard. Here it is again. YOU made the list. YOU set the terms. Is "anti-consumer" behavior criteria for getting into the red list? If not, you need to edit what you wrote.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/acab-erik-karen-tavern-gets-obs-module-taken-down/

And here is Venger's blog post complaining about getting booted from Tenkar's Discord over, among other things, his "coming out" as trans-tentacle or whatever the fuck. How much evidence do you need? To the Red List with him!

https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2019/03/whats-opposite-of-humble.html

Sorry, its a long thread I forgot about it. I think at least for now, i'm not sure he should be in the guide because it's more of a blog/community and not an actual publisher or creator of rpgs. It was a bad take for sure, and as far as I can tell this isn't behavior he does regularly. He seems to attempt to be a neutral ground, which is something I applaud and am grateful for.

Anyway i'm still having doubts about not just being a sort of stamp of approval or greenlist of games rather than having a "naughty list" on there at all. Might be a bit late for that now either way.

Quote from: Squidi on September 08, 2021, 02:25:06 PM

Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 01:23:46 PMThe real question is though, do I include creators that are so small i doubt their own mothers even know they still exist?

Generally, you don't have to because the small creators are so explicit about their woke ideology, that's usually the only content in the game. Do you really need to point out that something like Thirsty Sword Lesbians is woke? Woke crap that is created to be woke crap is easy enough to spot, and easy enough to avoid.

I think the list is most useful for the companies that are stewards of existing franchises. I don't care if some nobody makes an RPG about adventurers in a wheel chair, I can when they make D&D wheelchair accessible in spite of decades of tradition and lore. I don't care if some nobody insults their fans on Twitter. I care when the stewards of my favorite RPG decide to insult their fans, making their decades of fandom worse than meaningless.

The dangers of wokeness is due to what it ruins - literally destroying properties that have gone strong for 40-50 years and now are nothing - not necessarily it being cloyingly obnoxious in and of itself.

Only really touched it because they are with Evil Hat, otherwise yeah it  would have been something too small to really care about.

I want to just comment real fast on the "stamp of approval" list concept.

I consider myself on the "woke" side, I like what I like and sometimes I'll spend my money to support a game purely on the basis that I want to encourage representation. I am not saying you don't do this as an accusation nor am I saying you should do this as well.

But one thing the other non woke side does really well i think is applying old school  principles to their games. The green list has some of my favorite companies for "old school flavor" that I buy and mine for my home games. I am willing to bet other items on that list would be awesome for that reason to buy as well, but that potential gets lost in the inclusion of the red list. I feel that the presence of the red list turns what might have been a compilation of badass companies into a list that, while including problematic behaviors, also starts to feel less like anti consumer behavior and more anti belief behavior.

I don't know ocule and I wouldn't presume to tell them what to do with their time. But it would have been pretty  cool to see a list put together by people who take so much pride in their gamer status of products that make  games better rather than a list of products that "hate you" purely based on "having pronouns on the packaging"*

I think you are right, ocule, it may be too late. Which is, from a guy who is not only "woke" but also just wants good useable gaming content,  a shame.

*I know Wizkids is off the red list now but that one stuck out to me. Anyway.

For the record, I don't object to the list as a tool or tactic. I'm just really critical of the hypocrisy, bigotry, and lack of self-awareness of the actual content.

We don't need you to shove our politics down our throats. That's what separates someone from the red section as opposed to someone like RPGpundit who has made diverse products such as Arrows of Indra.

We are completely self-aware, we just don't take the opinions of sophists seriously.

We who? You have 25 posts.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on September 08, 2021, 01:43:28 PM
Still Waiting for Erik Tenkar to be placed on the Red List for the "anti-consumer behavior" (which is specifically listed by the list's author as enough to keep one out of both the Green and Yellow Lists) of getting a product pulled from OBS for content he didn't like. As I pointed out earlier, Tenkar was called out vociferously on this very forum.

Also look how upset the SJWs are lol
https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/On-The-Red-RPG-List-by-CogswellDesign/88048921.XNZKR

Let me see if I understood correctly: these people want to be on a list that has anti-Semite people in it?

Quote from: pawsplay on September 08, 2021, 05:39:43 PM
We who? You have 25 posts.

We who want games to be actually good.

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on September 08, 2021, 12:37:19 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 08, 2021, 12:23:53 AM
People, let's try to stay closer to the topic of the list. This isn't a general discussion thread on internet censorship. You want to talk about how SJWs on the list have tried blacklisting, banning, boycotting or smear campaigns against other people, that's fine. But we don't really need to talk about what Al Gore's wife or other Democrats were doing back in the 1980s (along with some fundies).

On-topic, as GenCon is on the list, would the ENNies qualify well or no?

Talking about anything related to gaming, in the context of the list, is OK.

Quote from: Allvaldr on September 08, 2021, 02:48:35 AM

Quote from: rando on September 07, 2021, 06:14:14 PMI'm sorry but I don't know what "multiple session 0s" are.  In somebody's home game, nobody is going to do this.  Maybe if it has to do with underage kids playing and you and I both know that such problem content would never come up.  My only conclusion would be that it was made for K-12 students and/or total strangers (perhaps online).  Aside from it being free, it's entirely optional.  You don't have to download it or use it. 
-rando

I made the mistake of joining a bunch of millennials (all in their late 20s to mid thirties) for a campaign shortly before covid. The DM wanted to do three session zeros. For D&D 5E, which everyone at the table already knew. I noped out of there right away. Still no clue what he was actually planning to do with those sessions.

This is a real trend:

Quote from: pawsplay on September 08, 2021, 04:32:32 AM
Is it possible to land on the Red list by being a full-on Nazi? People talk about "normal" gamers but I see a lot of right, far-right, and eccentric attitudes expressed in this thread that don't fly with "normal gamers" insofar as that's a thing. So I'm really wondering if being apolitical is the Green standard here, or if this is just a deck shuffle to really say right-wing, conservative, or retrograde politics.
Oh, and thank you, posters with less than 10 posts, for showing up and registering to post the absolute worst takes on everything.

If it were up to me, Varg Vikernes would be on the Red List. He's a proponent of Critical Race Theory, after all.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 08, 2021, 06:21:18 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on September 08, 2021, 04:32:32 AM
Is it possible to land on the Red list by being a full-on Nazi? People talk about "normal" gamers but I see a lot of right, far-right, and eccentric attitudes expressed in this thread that don't fly with "normal gamers" insofar as that's a thing. So I'm really wondering if being apolitical is the Green standard here, or if this is just a deck shuffle to really say right-wing, conservative, or retrograde politics.
Oh, and thank you, posters with less than 10 posts, for showing up and registering to post the absolute worst takes on everything.

If it were up to me, Varg Vikernes would be on the Red List. He's a proponent of Critical Race Theory, after all.

He has in fact been added to the red list along with bob bledsworth ii in the new version

Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 09:10:34 AM

Quote from: Pat on September 08, 2021, 08:04:57 AM

Quote from: Hopladamus on September 08, 2021, 07:58:24 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on September 08, 2021, 04:32:32 AM
Is it possible to land on the Red list by being a full-on Nazi? People talk about "normal" gamers but I see a lot of right, far-right, and eccentric attitudes expressed in this thread that don't fly with "normal gamers" insofar as that's a thing. So I'm really wondering if being apolitical is the Green standard here, or if this is just a deck shuffle to really say right-wing, conservative, or retrograde politics.
Oh, and thank you, posters with less than 10 posts, for showing up and registering to post the absolute worst takes on everything.

I and Ocule have touched upon this subject a bit. Basically, I suggested that we separate the neutral/undecided/unknown and anti-SJW list as well as the SJW and alt-right list. The only people on the Anti-SJW list would be the people who have explicitly stated that they are opposed to SJWs, not the people that we suspect of being anti-SJWs. I have also listed a couple of more names for the neutral list as well as a couple of names for the hypothetical alt-right list. Unfortunately, I still haven't heard back from Ocule regarding this idea. Hopefully, he sees this post.

It's a terrible idea. If the list is to maintain any fairness, it needs to address bad actors, not political alignments. Red should be those who exclude, not just those who are the Sharp Point on Political Axis X. Green should be the companies who welcome anyone of any political stripe, as long as they meet some basic standards of decency.

Myfarog guy should definitely be red.

Sorry comments are hard to keep up with, this thread is so active. I was thinking about this for the past few days and I agree, I'm going to add MyFarog and a the judges guild guy to red. The guide should encompass overall practices as a buyers guide. Like a buyers beware this will involve changing some of the language I initially used to categorize the various entities. Of course the spiel of "if you don't like our politics or voted for x don't buy our games" will still be categorized as red. Yellow should be a bit more defined as well.

New definitions might shift some of the yellows around as well to either green or red. Though I predict mostly towards green. My goal is to make it so only an absolute tard could possibly mistake it for a hate list or black list

Excellent idea.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 08, 2021, 06:21:18 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on September 08, 2021, 04:32:32 AM
Is it possible to land on the Red list by being a full-on Nazi? People talk about "normal" gamers but I see a lot of right, far-right, and eccentric attitudes expressed in this thread that don't fly with "normal gamers" insofar as that's a thing. So I'm really wondering if being apolitical is the Green standard here, or if this is just a deck shuffle to really say right-wing, conservative, or retrograde politics.
Oh, and thank you, posters with less than 10 posts, for showing up and registering to post the absolute worst takes on everything.

If it were up to me, Varg Vikernes would be on the Red List. He's a proponent of Critical Race Theory, after all.

Oh hes on the red list. Same as all the other racists, left or right. Yes being racist is anti-consumer whether you hate me for being black or white.

Quote from: Hopladamus on September 08, 2021, 11:21:05 AM

Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 09:10:34 AM

Quote from: Pat on September 08, 2021, 08:04:57 AM

Quote from: Hopladamus on September 08, 2021, 07:58:24 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on September 08, 2021, 04:32:32 AM
Is it possible to land on the Red list by being a full-on Nazi? People talk about "normal" gamers but I see a lot of right, far-right, and eccentric attitudes expressed in this thread that don't fly with "normal gamers" insofar as that's a thing. So I'm really wondering if being apolitical is the Green standard here, or if this is just a deck shuffle to really say right-wing, conservative, or retrograde politics.
Oh, and thank you, posters with less than 10 posts, for showing up and registering to post the absolute worst takes on everything.

I and Ocule have touched upon this subject a bit. Basically, I suggested that we separate the neutral/undecided/unknown and anti-SJW list as well as the SJW and alt-right list. The only people on the Anti-SJW list would be the people who have explicitly stated that they are opposed to SJWs, not the people that we suspect of being anti-SJWs. I have also listed a couple of more names for the neutral list as well as a couple of names for the hypothetical alt-right list. Unfortunately, I still haven't heard back from Ocule regarding this idea. Hopefully, he sees this post.

It's a terrible idea. If the list is to maintain any fairness, it needs to address bad actors, not political alignments. Red should be those who exclude, not just those who are the Sharp Point on Political Axis X. Green should be the companies who welcome anyone of any political stripe, as long as they meet some basic standards of decency.

Myfarog guy should definitely be red.

Sorry comments are hard to keep up with, this thread is so active. I was thinking about this for the past few days and I agree, I'm going to add MyFarog and a the judges guild guy to red. The guide should encompass overall practices as a buyers guide. Like a buyers beware this will involve changing some of the language I initially used to categorize the various entities. Of course the spiel of "if you don't like our politics or voted for x don't buy our games" will still be categorized as red. Yellow should be a bit more defined as well.

New definitions might shift some of the yellows around as well to either green or red. Though I predict mostly towards green. My goal is to make it so only an absolute tard could possibly mistake it for a hate list or black list

Don't forget to add Vox Day to one of these lists. He could be Red cause he's alt-right or green cause he publishes works from anyone, even people he vehemently disagrees with (Such as Ken Burnside). Maybe the yellow list would be a good compromise from him. Glenn Rahman and Ken St. Andre should go on Green for the reasons that I provided. Tenkar should go on the green list (for now) with a footnote that he did do some unsavory things in the past (or at least put him on the yellow list).

I maintain that the anti-SJW and neutral lists should be separated so as to avoid problems for the neutrals. I have suggested that only people that openly declare themselves to be anti-SJWs should be on the Anti-SJW list. It would be stupid to antagonize any neutrals over this. If anyone remembers the people who were suggested as replacements for Grim Jim after he left IC, then let me and Ocule know.

I also agree that only designers of some note should be on this list so as to avoid attention seekers hoping to gain fame/infamy.

Has Vox Day (or Tenkar for that matter, though I hate to name him next to someone like Vox) actually done any RPG works?  I think the list shouldn't be expanded to people or companies that aren't actually making any RPGs even if they peripherally (or even primarily, in Tenkar's case) talk about them sometimes.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 08, 2021, 11:30:26 AM
I suggest a 4th category, with some drab color, maybe "brown", that is "not enough information to decide".  Likely, people won't stay there for long, but you need a dumping ground for a few entries to note that they've been considered but no determination made.  Also, will annoy the hell out of a few SJW companies if they end up there, causing them to out themselves.

If there's really no information, it means that said company has not made any products or any social media statements to mark them as promoting toxic Woke ideology. So by default, wouldn't those be green?

Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 11:36:18 AM
Okay so I just put up some major changes to language, added a forward, moved some entries around who were probably miscategorized and fixed some descriptions and added links to certain things. Also added Vikernes and Bob Bledsaw II to the guide as well

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RlX78Yw9lbUMk2QwAZdpwNRGAd4Xe69eFgnFymWz6M0/edit?usp=sharing

Post an update of the list on this thread, and I'll cut/paste that to your first post.