Quote from: hoshisabi on September 07, 2021, 11:11:41 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 07, 2021, 11:04:11 PM
  Regarding clean hands and using tactics used against you that are objectionable.   If you fight someone and they use any way at all to win, you are just a dumbass to not fight dirty yourself.   The "right" has been a bunch of dumbasses for a long time.

Not when the point you're making is the tactics being used.

"The left makes lists."

Well, now we see the right making lists. And I can show plenty of examples of the right making lists in the past. After all, our own game was banned BY THE RIGHT as part of a list.

Back when I was a kid, the Satanic Panic put D&D on a list, and groups like Bothered Against Dungeons and Dragons was firmly right wing and Christian and opposed to so many things that somehow have become accepted by this new form of "the right."

I haven't forgotten, but sometimes I wonder why people my age have, as they get older they somehow carve out exceptions for the things that they enjoyed as a kid, but ... sometimes not even then.

My ultra right wing buddy that I gamed with, that went from being far on my left to become far far on my right, ... Well, D&D is kinda sorta ok, but Harry Potter is about casting spells, and it's about witches, and glorifying things against God. I was really surprised to hear him tell me that, but ... hey, he worships how he worships. But, he also knows how I spend my free time too.

Lists aren't inherently bad. Im not doing anything wrong making a grocery list or a list of companies that don't hate me as a customer. If the wokes want to use this list to buy from woke companies and avoid non-woke companies, then by all means.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 07, 2021, 11:12:34 PM

Quote from: ArtemisWyrm on September 07, 2021, 11:11:14 PM
The point of the list is not to offend the woke crowd. They get themselves worked up all the time over nothing. The point is to help gamers like us make an informed choice as to which company we should choose to put our money towards. It shows us which companies get involved in woke politics or bends the knee vs those that aren't woke or are neutral. In other words it lets us know which companies hate us and which ones don't.

Excellent, and your list can also help provide me and other SJW folks the same benefit, as you're providing a list of games made by people who hate us and which ones don't.

Yes. That was always allowed.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 07, 2021, 11:07:26 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 07, 2021, 10:58:02 PM
  I can assure you, most people here do not use, or think the word "problematic" regarding anything.  I think that is someone else's word.

Yeah, it's one of those ... words.

But, I've said plenty of things that would get me labelled an SJW, and if someone made a list of people that were "SJW gamers" and quoted me, I don't know why that would be something that people would think would offend me, make me angry, make me afraid, or anything like that.

Just as if someone were to make a list of companies that support Trump and used a tweet or a Facebook post where the CEO said "Trump 2020!"  ... Sure, whatever, the dude said it, I don't think he'd be ashamed of it.

(and if he was, man, that's not how the internet works. You say it publicly, it might as well be permanent. Come to terms with the fact that the internet is written with permanent marker)

       Who cares?  I am not quite getting what you are trying to say.  If you are an SJW, I could care less.   I also think you may not quite get what the term means coming from the right.  It is usually a zealous person who can, and will do all they can to end people's professional lives for political beliefs.  If you are the sort of person to do that sort of thing, and feel proud about it... well you do you.

Quote from: ArtemisWyrm on September 07, 2021, 11:14:24 PM
Yes. That was always allowed.

I had assumed as much, I've made that point on Twitter when replying to people, and I've mentioned to people who have giggled about the vandalism that it doesn't serve anyone's purpose to vandalize it.

If the list includes something that is slanderous, then yeah, I'd say that perhaps folks should talk it out about the details.

But, hell, go on with yourselves!  You keep that list, you provide some distinction between the greens on that list, between the merely apolitical and the actively anti-SJW and anti-woke. You start giving some evidence that a particular person really hates my guts, as opposed to wants to focus on making games... that'll inform my opinion a lot more.

I'm sure the same exists in the red list, for you too.  I'm sure we can all benefit with details, so we can make our own choices.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 07, 2021, 11:12:34 PM

Quote from: ArtemisWyrm on September 07, 2021, 11:11:14 PM
The point of the list is not to offend the woke crowd. They get themselves worked up all the time over nothing. The point is to help gamers like us make an informed choice as to which company we should choose to put our money towards. It shows us which companies get involved in woke politics or bends the knee vs those that aren't woke or are neutral. In other words it lets us know which companies hate us and which ones don't.

Excellent, and your list can also help provide me and other SJW folks the same benefit, as you're providing a list of games made by people who hate us and which ones don't.

     Anyone who is a SJW, already has their list made, do not fool yourself.   

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 07, 2021, 11:19:59 PM

Quote from: ArtemisWyrm on September 07, 2021, 11:14:24 PM
Yes. That was always allowed.

I had assumed as much, I've made that point on Twitter when replying to people, and I've mentioned to people who have giggled about the vandalism that it doesn't serve anyone's purpose to vandalize it.

If the list includes something that is slanderous, then yeah, I'd say that perhaps folks should talk it out about the details.

But, hell, go on with yourselves!  You keep that list, you provide some distinction between the greens on that list, between the merely apolitical and the actively anti-SJW and anti-woke. You start giving some evidence that a particular person really hates my guts, as opposed to wants to focus on making games... that'll inform my opinion a lot more.

I'm sure the same exists in the red list, for you too.  I'm sure we can all benefit with details, so we can make our own choices.

And you can seethe and cope that we have means to avoid your trash.

Greetings!

The "List" is like a Consumer Reports list, or a AAA Travel Guide, recommending different vendors and businesses, and providing a brief picture of what they are about.

The "List" doesn't demand boycotts, or tell you who you must patronize from, or not.

It's that simple.

The sobbing SJW crybabies of course don't like it. It shows them under the sunlight, for everyone to see. And, of course, the SJW's don't control the list, which grinds them to no end.

As far as "Tactics" go--whatever. This isn't a Chess game. You play to win, to crush your fucking enemies utterly. Make them cry and get on their fucking knees and beg. Crush them relentlessly. That is what brings victory. All of the whining about hypocrisy and "concern tactics" is just sniveling masturbation. While far too many people have been concerned about trivia, and "Losing Gracefully" the fucking Left and their Marxist shock troops have been overthrowing the entire society.

Society has run out of time. You either want to win and survive--or you will be exterminated, or subjugated. The conflict over civilization, culture, and ideology is raging in every aspect of society, including the hobby of gaming, among others.

Who gives a fuck if the SJW Libtards don't like it? That's too bad. The faster and harder they are ruthlessly crushed the better off our entire culture will be. Every area needs to be fought. the SJW's need to be resisted at every opportunity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: oggsmash on September 07, 2021, 11:17:24 PM
       Who cares?  I am not quite getting what you are trying to say.  If you are an SJW, I could care less.   I also think you may not quite get what the term means coming from the right.  It is usually a zealous person who can, and will do all they can to end people's professional lives for political beliefs.  If you are the sort of person to do that sort of thing, and feel proud about it... well you do you.

This is a moving goalpost thing. You claim SJW is only people who campaign to ruin another person's job, another person will call me one because I speak out on behalf of neurodivergent players, on behalf of LGBTQ players, on behalf of women and minority players.

I'm an organizer for a group of gamers, I'll speak up just as readily for the kid who wore a Trump shirt to the game, or the "liberal tears" mug to the game. We don't talk politics at the table. We only have the rules "safe, friendly, fun." Otherwise, play D&D today and we'll see you next week if you want. (and I SPECIFICALLY stopped an anti-Trump discussion when the kid was at the table, he was quiet because it's tough to express an opinion when 5 other people who are like 10-20 years older than you bag on a guy you like.  "Dudes, we don't know everyone's politics, we're not here to talk about politics, we're here to roll dice.")

But you talk about the SJW wanting to get folks fired, but much later the kid with the Trump shirt is the one that tried to get me "fired" from my job as an organizer.  (Joke was on him, I'm not an employee, receive no money from anyone, and literally just decided that I would help make sure that anyone who wanted to play D&D would get to play D&D on our established days... The store just decided that they'd start pointing newcomers to me.)

His reason, by the way, is that I wouldn't force people to let him play at a table where he said offensive things, they felt that he was being transphobic because he was consistently and intentionally using the wrong pronouns and names, even after being asked to stop. You don't get to crybully your way back to the table that asked you to leave.

I've had others that have tried to cancel me. Cancel culture is not solely a thing from the left, the right has always done it, they just never use that term.

But we have a ton of conservative members that pitch in and help out, just as we have liberal ones. I'm pretty sure that the things that I do are apolitical, but the fact that I didn't kick out a trans player, that was claimed to be political. It's not, in my opinion, and I won't bend the knee, as I've seen folks say, to the cancel culture of the right.

And the folks that "my character is an ass, so I hit on the women at the table." Yeah, he doesn't get to do that, even in character.  Sorry, I'm not "bending the knee" to the feminists that are ruining the game, I'm maintaining a certain level of respect to other players, and that's not political.  Especially when the conservative members are just as disgusted with the guy.

We've got plenty of examples.  Really, "don't be an ass" shouldn't be considered political, but for some reason, it's been thrown in my face as proof that I'm SJW.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 07, 2021, 11:31:02 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 07, 2021, 11:17:24 PM
       Who cares?  I am not quite getting what you are trying to say.  If you are an SJW, I could care less.   I also think you may not quite get what the term means coming from the right.  It is usually a zealous person who can, and will do all they can to end people's professional lives for political beliefs.  If you are the sort of person to do that sort of thing, and feel proud about it... well you do you.

This is a moving goalpost thing. You claim SJW is only people who campaign to ruin another person's job, another person will call me one because I speak out on behalf of neurodivergent players, on behalf of LGBTQ players, on behalf of women and minority players.

I'm an organizer for a group of gamers, I'll speak up just as readily for the kid who wore a Trump shirt to the game, or the "liberal tears" mug to the game. We don't talk politics at the table. We only have the rules "safe, friendly, fun." Otherwise, play D&D today and we'll see you next week if you want. (and I SPECIFICALLY stopped an anti-Trump discussion when the kid was at the table, he was quiet because it's tough to express an opinion when 5 other people who are like 10-20 years older than you bag on a guy you like.  "Dudes, we don't know everyone's politics, we're not here to talk about politics, we're here to roll dice.")

But you talk about the SJW wanting to get folks fired, but the kid with the Trump shirt is the one that tried to get me "fired" from my job as an organizer.  (Joke was on him, I'm not an employee, receive no money from anyone, and literally just decided that I would help make sure that anyone who wanted to play D&D would get to play D&D on our established days... The store just decided that they'd start pointing newcomers to me.)

I've had others that have tried to cancel me. Cancel culture is not solely a thing from the left, the right has always done it, they just never use that term.

But we have a ton of conservative members that pitch in and help out, just as we have liberal ones. I'm pretty sure that the things that I do are apolitical, but the fact that I didn't kick out a trans player, that was claimed to be political. It's not, in my opinion, and I won't bend the knee, as I've seen folks say, to the cancel culture of the right.

And the folks that "my character is an ass, so I hit on the women at the table." Yeah, he doesn't get to do that, even in character.  Sorry, I'm not "bending the knee" to the feminists that are ruining the game, I'm maintaining a certain level of respect to other players, and that's not political.  Especially when the conservative members are just as disgusted with the guy.

We've got plenty of examples.  Really, "don't be an ass" shouldn't be considered political, but for some reason, it's been thrown in my face as proof that I'm SJW.

  I did not move any goalposts.  I told you what I see as an SJW.    You call yourself something because of what it means to you.  I told you what it means to me.  Do with that what you will. 

  I also do not give two shits what the "right" did or does, especially in the past,  with regard to justifying SJW behavior going on now.   Had this forum been around back in the 80's I would have jack chicks to rail about.  That was then, I am talking now.

Quote from: ArtemisWyrm on September 07, 2021, 11:23:36 PM
And you can seethe and cope that we have means to avoid your trash.

What have I said that indicates I'm seething at all?  Literally, I've spoken in support of the list, and suggest that it be enhanced with details.

I'll have you know, my own published material sells so poorly that if you cancelled me, it'd only increase my sales. I could certainly do with that level of notoriety.

I'm nobody, man, I'm a gamer, not a publisher.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 07, 2021, 11:35:33 PM
  I did not move any goalposts.  I told you what I see as an SJW.    You call yourself something because of what it means to you.  I told you what it means to me.  Do with that what you will.

That's your goalposts. I've seen plenty of others claim SJW for mere support of things like BLM and antifa and LBGTQ causes and so on.

The goalposts move depending on the person, and I've seen plenty of people just say "Soandso is an SJW moron" and others just sagely nod as if it's truth, when that person never tried to get anyone fired.

I really think that "get people fired" distinction is rather unique to you, too. I've seen it far more frequently used to classify people with opinions than people who have done a specific thing.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 07, 2021, 11:31:02 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 07, 2021, 11:17:24 PM
       Who cares?  I am not quite getting what you are trying to say.  If you are an SJW, I could care less.   I also think you may not quite get what the term means coming from the right.  It is usually a zealous person who can, and will do all they can to end people's professional lives for political beliefs.  If you are the sort of person to do that sort of thing, and feel proud about it... well you do you.

This is a moving goalpost thing. You claim SJW is only people who campaign to ruin another person's job, another person will call me one because I speak out on behalf of neurodivergent players, on behalf of LGBTQ players, on behalf of women and minority players.

I'm an organizer for a group of gamers, I'll speak up just as readily for the kid who wore a Trump shirt to the game, or the "liberal tears" mug to the game. We don't talk politics at the table. We only have the rules "safe, friendly, fun." Otherwise, play D&D today and we'll see you next week if you want. (and I SPECIFICALLY stopped an anti-Trump discussion when the kid was at the table, he was quiet because it's tough to express an opinion when 5 other people who are like 10-20 years older than you bag on a guy you like.  "Dudes, we don't know everyone's politics, we're not here to talk about politics, we're here to roll dice.")

But you talk about the SJW wanting to get folks fired, but much later the kid with the Trump shirt is the one that tried to get me "fired" from my job as an organizer.  (Joke was on him, I'm not an employee, receive no money from anyone, and literally just decided that I would help make sure that anyone who wanted to play D&D would get to play D&D on our established days... The store just decided that they'd start pointing newcomers to me.)

His reason, by the way, is that I wouldn't force people to let him play at a table where he said offensive things, they felt that he was being transphobic because he was consistently and intentionally using the wrong pronouns and names, even after being asked to stop. You don't get to crybully your way back to the table that asked you to leave.

I've had others that have tried to cancel me. Cancel culture is not solely a thing from the left, the right has always done it, they just never use that term.

But we have a ton of conservative members that pitch in and help out, just as we have liberal ones. I'm pretty sure that the things that I do are apolitical, but the fact that I didn't kick out a trans player, that was claimed to be political. It's not, in my opinion, and I won't bend the knee, as I've seen folks say, to the cancel culture of the right.

And the folks that "my character is an ass, so I hit on the women at the table." Yeah, he doesn't get to do that, even in character.  Sorry, I'm not "bending the knee" to the feminists that are ruining the game, I'm maintaining a certain level of respect to other players, and that's not political.  Especially when the conservative members are just as disgusted with the guy.

We've got plenty of examples.  Really, "don't be an ass" shouldn't be considered political, but for some reason, it's been thrown in my face as proof that I'm SJW.

Greetings!

Interesting. "Don't be an ass" though, somehow, has itself become weaponized by the SJW's to target and demonize anyone that doesn't gulp down and embrace their political ideology.

When I was 10 years old, we all knew what "Don't be an ass" meant, and having good manners. That was many years ago, and it had nothing to do with politics. everything the SJW's cry about is all about them forcing their politics down everyone else's throat.

THAT's why there is a growing backlash and resistance to the Woke SJW bullshit.

Normal gamers have been playing games and welcoming new gamers to tables for decades. We somehow now don't need a bunch of SJW freaks and totalitarian jackasses to come along and insist that everyone in the hobby needs to be "enlightened" and "properly supervised" with SJW-approved "Struggle Sessions."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 07, 2021, 11:38:57 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 07, 2021, 11:35:33 PM
  I did not move any goalposts.  I told you what I see as an SJW.    You call yourself something because of what it means to you.  I told you what it means to me.  Do with that what you will.

That's your goalposts. I've seen plenty of others claim SJW for mere support of things like BLM and antifa and LBGTQ causes and so on.

The goalposts move depending on the person, and I've seen plenty of people just say "Soandso is an SJW moron" and others just sagely nod as if it's truth, when that person never tried to get anyone fired.

I really think that "get people fired" distinction is rather unique to you, too. I've seen it far more frequently used to classify people with opinions than people who have done a specific thing.

  If you support BLM the organization, you are a marxist, intimidated,  or just too busy to look into what the organization stands for, and its goals;  and just thought the name sounds like a good idea.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 07, 2021, 11:38:57 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 07, 2021, 11:35:33 PM
  I did not move any goalposts.  I told you what I see as an SJW.    You call yourself something because of what it means to you.  I told you what it means to me.  Do with that what you will.

That's your goalposts. I've seen plenty of others claim SJW for mere support of things like BLM and antifa and LBGTQ causes and so on.

The goalposts move depending on the person, and I've seen plenty of people just say "Soandso is an SJW moron" and others just sagely nod as if it's truth, when that person never tried to get anyone fired.

I really think that "get people fired" distinction is rather unique to you, too. I've seen it far more frequently used to classify people with opinions than people who have done a specific thing.

  Well, LOTS of words... especially the ones ending in -ist get tossed around at the drop of a hat these days, so I have no doubt SJW is an insult used by plenty of people.

My goal posts (principles)  are the only one I can do anything about, so what others do... well, not my concern.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 07, 2021, 11:11:41 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 07, 2021, 11:04:11 PM
  Regarding clean hands and using tactics used against you that are objectionable.   If you fight someone and they use any way at all to win, you are just a dumbass to not fight dirty yourself.   The "right" has been a bunch of dumbasses for a long time.

Not when the point you're making is the tactics being used.

"The left makes lists."

Well, now we see the right making lists. And I can show plenty of examples of the right making lists in the past. After all, our own game was banned BY THE RIGHT as part of a list.

Back when I was a kid, the Satanic Panic put D&D on a list, and groups like Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons was firmly right wing and Christian and opposed to so many things that somehow have become accepted by this new form of "the right."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Pulling

I haven't forgotten, but sometimes I wonder why people my age have, as they get older they somehow carve out exceptions for the things that they enjoyed as a kid, but ... sometimes not even then.

My ultra right wing buddy that I gamed with, that went from being far on my left to become far far on my right, ... Well, D&D is kinda sorta ok, but Harry Potter is about casting spells, and it's about witches, and glorifying things against God. I was really surprised to hear him tell me that, but ... hey, he worships how he worships. But, he also knows how I spend my free time too.

This isn't a banlist. Unlike the left, who call for people to be censored, demonetized, or sometimes killed, this is just a guide to know what you're spending your money on.