Quote from: Plotinus on September 16, 2021, 10:07:17 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 16, 2021, 07:46:19 PM
Can I suggest, given the recent move by the Paizo management to fight back against the cancel culture, to move Paizo to yellow.

What is this in reference to?

There is a separate thread: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/jessica-price-goes-ballistic-on-paizo/

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 16, 2021, 07:42:07 PM
If you knew this was off topic, why did you post this anyways?

Don't do this again if you value your membership here.

Because, as I said, it was relevant. It was part of a single, coherent argument that directly related to the topic of the thread. An argument I couldn't have effectively made, without addressing the historical elements.

If you don't agree, why not just ban me? While I have always and will always try to abide by the rules of the forum, because that's just the basic respect due to a host, I don't value any membership more than these threats.

Ocule, take a look at "Alinsky's Rules for Radicals."  One of them is:

• "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."

The newbie people who are criticizing why some companies are green while others aren't are not interested in making the list better.  They are nit-picking to try and derail your list.  They aren't interested in the fair application of standards.  They are trying to obviate the list by the charges of bias.  They shift arguments in a principle-less way, while demanding you live up to their redefinition of your principles.  Please ignore them and keep doing what you are doing.  Neither you nor Pundit owe them a rationale for your choices.  If we, the users, find the list useful, then that is enough!

Quote from: Shasarak on September 16, 2021, 10:12:46 PM

Quote from: Plotinus on September 16, 2021, 10:07:17 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 16, 2021, 07:46:19 PM
Can I suggest, given the recent move by the Paizo management to fight back against the cancel culture, to move Paizo to yellow.

What is this in reference to?

There is a separate thread: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/jessica-price-goes-ballistic-on-paizo/

I saw the Jessica Price thing, but I didn't see where Paizo actually defended itself, specifically. I sort of assumed they would either ignore it or apologize and grovel and make vague promises to "do better."

Quote from: Plotinus on September 16, 2021, 11:23:14 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 16, 2021, 10:12:46 PM

Quote from: Plotinus on September 16, 2021, 10:07:17 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 16, 2021, 07:46:19 PM
Can I suggest, given the recent move by the Paizo management to fight back against the cancel culture, to move Paizo to yellow.

What is this in reference to?

There is a separate thread: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/jessica-price-goes-ballistic-on-paizo/

I saw the Jessica Price thing, but I didn't see where Paizo actually defended itself, specifically. I sort of assumed they would either ignore it or apologize and grovel and make vague promises to "do better."

No they just doubled down with the "i have gay friends" excuse which is pretty based.

I see this list as a narrative victory. It is here to stay.
I did a video on this -
https://youtu.be/Vk34gFirTa0

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 16, 2021, 10:40:41 PM
Ocule, take a look at "Alinsky's Rules for Radicals."  One of them is:

• "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."

The newbie people who are criticizing why some companies are green while others aren't are not interested in making the list better.  They are nit-picking to try and derail your list.  They aren't interested in the fair application of standards.  They are trying to obviate the list by the charges of bias.  They shift arguments in a principle-less way, while demanding you live up to their redefinition of your principles.  Please ignore them and keep doing what you are doing.  Neither you nor Pundit owe them a rationale for your choices.  If we, the users, find the list useful, then that is enough!

a.) Living up to your own rules is a bad thing? I guess East is West.

and

b.) Most of us don't give a crap about where most folks are at on the list, but I pointed out some inconsistencies that I had thought of, and when Ocule explained his methodology, I pretty much stopped with it. I noticed not long after, independently several people pointed them out, people who are longer term residents here, with opinions that more firmly align with the rest of you.

But hey, it's easier to assume malice than anything else. That's how you can paint an entire group of people as unhuman and stuff. Obviously it's the left that dehumanizes people that we don't agree with. Because you know, we're all monsters and weren't gamers longer than some of the folks in this forum have been alive.

And yeah, no one owes me anything, never said that they did, and I've been explicit that I am a guest here by the whims of the owners and moderators of the forum. That's an expectation of this sort of medium.

Ocule explained his reasoning, I've been happy with it. We accept that a bias exists, it's pretty advertised from the get-go, and that is that.

But go ahead, read the forum posts. Look at what I've said, and then follow along as long term users have made the exact same points.

1.) SJG is pretty apolitical. Their yellow position is possibly a green, but Ocule has information that we aren't privy to which makes him confident in the placement.
2.) It might be nice to have a list that separates "green" into anti-woke/anti-SJW and merely apolitical.

Guess what, you'll see established forumgoers making the same comments, go ahead, check it out. It doesn't somehow become a bad idea when someone else says it that you don't agree with on some irrelevant topics.

Such groupthink sometimes.

And as far as a sockpuppet, I may be using an alias, but I'm using an alias that is pretty consistent everywhere. It might as well be my real name. I'm not inviting harassments or anything, but if you ever message me with a polite "hello" I'm guaranteed to say hello back. I'm a damned chatty individual, and I stand by my words. I'm not being a jerk as far as I can tell. At least I am trying to not be.

I'm sorry I am seeming to getting a little more short tempered lately, but I can only have people tell me that I have some ulterior motives so many times. Alinsky tactics? pshaw, like I think that far ahead before I open my mouth. But honestly, if you and I were at a table, putting dice away and chatting after a game, you wouldn't think that I am some monster or something. I'm just some dude.

And this is no insult, but your opinion of me isn't important to EITHER of us. You thinking I'm a good person or an evil monster out to force others to have my ideals, does it really matter one way or another to you? Assume malice if you like, but it's so much easier to just think of me as a doddering old fool who sometimes talks when people aren't listening.

Quote from: Plotinus on September 16, 2021, 11:23:14 PM
I saw the Jessica Price thing, but I didn't see where Paizo actually defended itself, specifically. I sort of assumed they would either ignore it or apologize and grovel and make vague promises to "do better."

It's been a storm of fecal matter. There are some strong friendships that are being tested by this, you'll see people making lots of statements supporting just about EVERYONE, even if the individual people are on opposite sides of this matter. And even Jessica's statement made a point about how she had friends that are still inside of the company, and how a boycott would be detrimental to some of the people who were merely victims.

And just today Buhlmahn posted an apology that feels like he was trying to thread a needle from a long, long distance away. Some apology here, some non-apology there.
https://twitter.com/JasonBulmahn/status/1438594485437407232

But, this all started by them firing a bunch of people, and they have their own stories too. Ms. Price was just keeping the story to herself all of these years to avoid any retribution to her friends that still remained, and now that they were gone, she felt free to spill the beans. And after she did, several others shared their own stories.

And... yeah, expect more "apologies" like Bulmahn's.

Jason is pretty bad.  He asked a woman out when he should have known that she did not want to go out with him.

And worse still he took no for an answer.

That really is Bull, man:

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 03:59:15 AM
Jason is pretty bad.  He asked a woman out when he should have known that she did not want to go out with him.

And worse still he took no for an answer.

That really is Bull, man:

It's almost as if you didn't read his apology, you just selected one part of the discussion and assumed what happened.

That's an easy way to win an argument, can I try it next?

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 17, 2021, 04:23:28 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 03:59:15 AM
Jason is pretty bad.  He asked a woman out when he should have known that she did not want to go out with him.

And worse still he took no for an answer.

That really is Bull, man:

It's almost as if you didn't read his apology, you just selected one part of the discussion and assumed what happened.

That's an easy way to win an argument, can I try it next?

Please, share with me your concern.

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 04:30:32 AM

Glad to see you come around, see you on the flipside, man. Good to have you on board.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 17, 2021, 04:49:08 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 04:30:32 AM

Glad to see you come around, see you on the flipside, man. Good to have you on board.

10 4 good buddy. Keep the bugs off your glass and the bears off your tail

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 17, 2021, 03:26:54 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 16, 2021, 10:40:41 PM
Ocule, take a look at "Alinsky's Rules for Radicals."  One of them is:

• "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."

The newbie people who are criticizing why some companies are green while others aren't are not interested in making the list better.  They are nit-picking to try and derail your list.  They aren't interested in the fair application of standards.  They are trying to obviate the list by the charges of bias.  They shift arguments in a principle-less way, while demanding you live up to their redefinition of your principles.  Please ignore them and keep doing what you are doing.  Neither you nor Pundit owe them a rationale for your choices.  If we, the users, find the list useful, then that is enough!

a.) Living up to your own rules is a bad thing? I guess East is West.

and

b.) Most of us don't give a crap about where most folks are at on the list, but I pointed out some inconsistencies that I had thought of, and when Ocule explained his methodology, I pretty much stopped with it. I noticed not long after, independently several people pointed them out, people who are longer term residents here, with opinions that more firmly align with the rest of you.

But hey, it's easier to assume malice than anything else. That's how you can paint an entire group of people as unhuman and stuff. Obviously it's the left that dehumanizes people that we don't agree with. Because you know, we're all monsters and weren't gamers longer than some of the folks in this forum have been alive.

And yeah, no one owes me anything, never said that they did, and I've been explicit that I am a guest here by the whims of the owners and moderators of the forum. That's an expectation of this sort of medium.

Ocule explained his reasoning, I've been happy with it. We accept that a bias exists, it's pretty advertised from the get-go, and that is that.

But go ahead, read the forum posts. Look at what I've said, and then follow along as long term users have made the exact same points.

1.) SJG is pretty apolitical. Their yellow position is possibly a green, but Ocule has information that we aren't privy to which makes him confident in the placement.
2.) It might be nice to have a list that separates "green" into anti-woke/anti-SJW and merely apolitical.

Guess what, you'll see established forumgoers making the same comments, go ahead, check it out. It doesn't somehow become a bad idea when someone else says it that you don't agree with on some irrelevant topics.

Such groupthink sometimes.

And as far as a sockpuppet, I may be using an alias, but I'm using an alias that is pretty consistent everywhere. It might as well be my real name. I'm not inviting harassments or anything, but if you ever message me with a polite "hello" I'm guaranteed to say hello back. I'm a damned chatty individual, and I stand by my words. I'm not being a jerk as far as I can tell. At least I am trying to not be.

I'm sorry I am seeming to getting a little more short tempered lately, but I can only have people tell me that I have some ulterior motives so many times. Alinsky tactics? pshaw, like I think that far ahead before I open my mouth. But honestly, if you and I were at a table, putting dice away and chatting after a game, you wouldn't think that I am some monster or something. I'm just some dude.

And this is no insult, but your opinion of me isn't important to EITHER of us. You thinking I'm a good person or an evil monster out to force others to have my ideals, does it really matter one way or another to you? Assume malice if you like, but it's so much easier to just think of me as a doddering old fool who sometimes talks when people aren't listening.

Well, at least we've progressed from Alinsky to DARVO.

And yes, living up to your own rules, as defined by your opponents, is a bad thing.  Because they are not trying to help you.  They are trying to tear you down.

Sorry, but when someone with your meager posting history starts sea-lioning (see what I did there), it is incumbent to question their motives.  Especially when they, shortly thereafter begin to champion the accusations of people like Jessica Price, with no evidence whatsoever, and ignore the employees who defended Jeff on the very thread linked here.  You aren't interested in finding out what is really happening here or there.  You're just here to tear down...

Quote from: CondorDM on September 17, 2021, 01:28:26 AM
I see this list as a narrative victory. It is here to stay.
I did a video on this -
https://youtu.be/Vk34gFirTa0

Good video. +1 subscriber.