Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 09:13:10 AM
So, when do you think that Pundit is going to stick with his convictions regarding free speech and campaign for prisoner's sufferage and speech rights?

Funny how a guy who was a sockpuppet for Ben Wenham was talking about "convictions". Banned.

Quote from: DocJones on September 16, 2021, 07:09:09 PM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on September 16, 2021, 05:11:35 PM
Fair enough, I'm also not too familiar with SJG in modern day as, afaik, they pretty just produce Munchkin (and I know people have clamored for a new GURPS edition for awhile)

They released  The Fantasy Trip a year ago.  A new version of Dungeon Fantasy a couple years back, and this year the Girl Genius RPG.
Several new Gurps supplements  Gurps Future History, Dungeon Fantasy Career Guide, etc.

Is GURPS Future History David Niven stuff about Flatlander, Crashlander and leads to the Man Kzin Wars, Protector, Ring World, and the Puppeteers stuff? Or is it just a generic thing about running near future and up campaigns?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 16, 2021, 10:10:19 AM
Eris, you are stupid, and attempting to distract with your argument about felons' rights and restorations. You wanna cook that hash, take it to the political forum.

As far as Varg goes, the point both Ocule and Pundit have made is that Varg is just as much of a lowlife as the rest of the Redlisters. The fact that his politics and views are diametrically opposed to the other redlisters has nothing to do with it; their argument is that you shouldn't give money to people who hate you.

They also aren't diametrically opposed. Varg and, say, Evil Hat's people both believe in Race Essentialism. They both believe that race is probably the most important defining factor of a person's life. That skin color really matters. They both believe that someone from one race can never truly understand someone from another race. They both believe that races should have their own safe spaces where other races are not allowed to intrude. They both believe that race-mixing is essentially problematic, and are probably both opposed to inter-racial adoption. They both believe that society needs to recognize the primacy of race, and probably that laws should be enacted to assure the "empowerment" of certain racial groups. They both almost certainly believe that property damage and even violence is justified if you are fighting for a good cause, like 'racial justice'. Hell, they probably both dislike Israel.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on September 16, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
Why isn't Zak S. in the red ? He openly supports the most liberal causes. He encourages his followers to harass people he has issue with. I suspect he isn't on the red for the same reason Tenkar isn't: both are still in a position to be of benefit to certain posters on this board. Zak is a notable figure with a body of well-regarded work, and Tenkar has recently promoted Venger's stuff.

Where is Zak? I didn't even notice. He should absolutely not be in the green section. He has often loudly pandered to leftist causes, and has been very public in stating that he does not support free speech, except for him and people who think like him.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 16, 2021, 07:30:23 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on September 16, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
Why isn't Zak S. in the red ? He openly supports the most liberal causes. He encourages his followers to harass people he has issue with. I suspect he isn't on the red for the same reason Tenkar isn't: both are still in a position to be of benefit to certain posters on this board. Zak is a notable figure with a body of well-regarded work, and Tenkar has recently promoted Venger's stuff.

Where is Zak? I didn't even notice. He should absolutely not be in the green section. He has often loudly pandered to leftist causes, and has been very public in stating that he does not support free speech, except for him and people who think like him.

Under lamentations of the flame princess. I had some trouble sorting through all that, only thing that really came up was a kinda sketchy accusation of sexual misconduct but damn if that wasn't the first second and hundredth thing on every search about him. So just assumed he was an edge lord

Quote from: jhkim on September 16, 2021, 01:37:07 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2021, 01:05:42 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:46:25 PM
So you are in favour of rules based restrictions on free speech?

It depends, where? who is doing the restrictions? What are those restrictions?

Here you can espouse left wing opinions and not get banned, you can even have wholly political discusions if you're in the correct sub-forum.

I agree that you can espouse left wing opinions here - and in general, I like it here on these forums. But Pundit can and does ban people based on their political stances. He recently banned SonTodoGatos for antisemitism, for example. And that's his right. It's his forum, and other people don't have a right to do whatever they like on his forum.

SonTodoGatos has a right to espouse his views in general - whether he is antisemitic or not, but he doesn't have a right to post on Pundit's forum without Pundit's permission.

Anti-Semitism is inherent racism. I don't know if you can call 'racism' a 'political stance', but I would ban anyone who expressed a racist ideology that implicitly demands brutality against people of one or more racial/ethnic groups.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 16, 2021, 01:48:25 PM
I think we're getting a little too far off track here.

The question about Zak S. is legitimate. But I'd like to see receipts on the 'he encourages followers to harass people' accusation.

(You might want to produce them, btw. Zak has been known to frequent the forum here. And he wrung a settlement out of 'Ettin' from TBP over accusations made.)

I don't think you need that part; Zak has repeatedly pushed leftist ideology, he's only opposed to SJWs when they attack him. He's stated that banning/censorship campaigns are fine against the "wrong people", and just before the whole fiasco with him erupted he was getting into business with other people on the Red List.

Quote from: Pat on September 16, 2021, 03:16:49 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 12:29:55 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on September 16, 2021, 12:16:01 PM

Quote from: Eris_Shrugged on September 16, 2021, 11:38:09 AM

Not sure I can think of a single person on the left who has engaged in Palingenetic ultranationalism.

Fascism came from the right of Stalin but it didn't come from the right. Or the center.

This is Ahistorical.

While there is some basis to the idea that Italian fascism moved to the right over time. And that it is true that, pre-fascism, Benito Mussolini was involved in left-wing politics, there is no basis to the idea that Italian fascism was left-wing.

From the outset fascism:

-was in alliance with traditional right-wing elites working to break up trade unions and kill left-wing organisers
- included right wing traditionalists and far-right futurists.

The Nazis were even more clearly right-wing,, though it did have a small number of people who believed in a left-wing conception of Nazism.

Those people behind that idea were all murdered during the night of long knives.

Hitler, like  Mussolini, came to power thanks to his alliance with right-wing elites.

I suggest you actually read a history of fascism before you make claims about it. A good starting point would be Robert O. Paxton's the Anatomy of Fascism.

You're both incorrect. Fascism is a variation on syndicalism, which is a type of socialism that focused on worker collectives taking control of the locations where they worked. It is thus very leftist, and you can see it in the tripartite model of Italian fascism, where the government, workers (unions), and businesses were supposed to jointly run industry. (Though it effectively defaulted to government control, because the government and only the government has control over the laws, the police, the judiciary, and the exclusive use of force.)

Syndicalism wasn't an intellectual movement, and was heavily focused on action. Workers rise up, and that kind of thing. That's why it melded well with the nationalistic elements of Mussolini's fascism, and the chauvinism. You can see strains of both syndicalism, and nationalism in the bravado of the black and later brown shirts.

There's no way to honestly appraise fascism and come to the conclusion it's not heavily drawn from the left wing of political thought. There's also no way to honestly appraise fascism and come to the conclusion it's not heavily drawn from the right wing of political thought, either. It's a mix of both, but not a homogeneous one. The individual threads that make it up can still be clearly distinguished, and the only people who deny this are partisans or apologists, who are trying to distance their favored end of the political axis from some of the worst atrocities in human history. The mess with the definition of fascism comes from decades of this, leading to nonsensically broad and meaningless definitions, like Umberto Eco's (great writer, shit political theorist).

The truth is the dexter v. sinister axis doesn't work, and even the horseshoe analogy is just a sloppy patch. The real difference isn't between the left and the right, but between liberty and collectivist central control. The latter always seems to lead to totalitarianism, of which both fascism and communism are minor variants (I'm using communism as a reference to the third of Marx's stages).

I'd recommend John T. Flynn's As We Go Marching and Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism.

The discussion of historical fascism is off topic, so I'm dropping it now. But I think it's relevant to the list, because this is the distinction you (Eris_Shrugged) and others (like hoshisabi) are missing. You're painting it as red vs. blue, and it's not. While there are different views of what the list should cover, I think it should be about bad actors. This can be people who personally did something like try to burn down a church, but the reason it was started, and the most common category in the toxic environment of today, is people who are making dictates about who is allowed to play, and who is not allowed to play.

Telling potential fans to fuck off because they voted for X, for instance. It doesn't matter who does it, or whether they're red or blue (or gray, which is a more accurate label for a lot of posters here). If they're actively advocating for the exclusion of broad groups of people, that's wrong. And the root of that wrong is the same root that leads to totalitarianism: The impulse to impose your will on others, and dictate how they can associate.

At its simplest: Do you allow anyone to play at your table, regardless of their race or politics? Do you judge them based on their individual behavior, and kick them because they misbehaved, not because of their color or who they voted for? That's the ideal. Welcome everyone, but once you know them, judge them as individuals instead of based on some group identity.

If you knew this was off topic, why did you post this anyways?

Don't do this again if you value your membership here.

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on September 16, 2021, 05:02:23 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on September 16, 2021, 04:02:15 PM

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 16, 2021, 12:21:29 PM
Honestly, I shouldn't really have bothered here in the first place, I am ill-equipped to be here. I am too clueless to catch on some of the subtle barbs, I am too sincere to maneuver with some of the conversational dances being performed, and I feel bad for being disrespectful even when I'm feeling a bit of the heat being thrown at me.

Don't worry about it. None of your posts have been disrespectful.

re: SJG: Way, way upthread I lobbied for SJW to be green, since they Resisted the Wokeists and refused to cancel Frog God Games. Also, Phil Reed got banned from TBP (temp?) for trying to explain that the disad "slave mentality" in Gurps has nothing to do with slavery. But Ocule mentioned something about an "October Surprise" (?) and kept them at yellow.

The October Surprise was a big thing (forget if it was 2016 or 2020, I think it was 2020) where a bunch of designers and writers (SJG included) signed on to push to vote for Biden? (Or Hillary if this was 2016) and to actively encourage it in their games and communities. At least, that's the gist as far as I'm aware of it.

Biden. In 2016 it was the even more toxic "#Gamers4Her".

Can I suggest, given the recent move by the Paizo management to fight back against the cancel culture, to move Paizo to yellow.

Quote from: Ocule on September 16, 2021, 07:34:20 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 16, 2021, 07:30:23 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on September 16, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
Why isn't Zak S. in the red ? He openly supports the most liberal causes. He encourages his followers to harass people he has issue with. I suspect he isn't on the red for the same reason Tenkar isn't: both are still in a position to be of benefit to certain posters on this board. Zak is a notable figure with a body of well-regarded work, and Tenkar has recently promoted Venger's stuff.

Where is Zak? I didn't even notice. He should absolutely not be in the green section. He has often loudly pandered to leftist causes, and has been very public in stating that he does not support free speech, except for him and people who think like him.

Under lamentations of the flame princess. I had some trouble sorting through all that, only thing that really came up was a kinda sketchy accusation of sexual misconduct but damn if that wasn't the first second and hundredth thing on every search about him. So just assumed he was an edge lord

Lamentations is DEFINITELY Green. But if Zak is listed as a separate creator, he shouldn't be.

In addition to what I mentioned before, he took money from Defy Media (under Alex Macris/Autarch at the time) to produce a new series of "D&D With Pornstars", and then after taking the money but before producing anything he publicly and very loudly cut ties with Defy Media accusing Alex Macris of "supporting transphobia" because he hired a conservative guy (to write for Defy's Conservative News Site).

Also, though this by itself wouldn't be the reason to do it, I don't know if SJW Gamers would be even more pissed off at being in the same section with Zak than they are at being in the same section with Varg Vikernes.

Quote from: Shasarak on September 16, 2021, 07:46:19 PM
Can I suggest, given the recent move by the Paizo management to fight back against the cancel culture, to move Paizo to yellow.

Being against cancel culture when it's your nuts on the chopping block requires zero principles and very little of said nuts. I say nay.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 16, 2021, 07:47:11 PM

Quote from: Ocule on September 16, 2021, 07:34:20 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 16, 2021, 07:30:23 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on September 16, 2021, 11:04:32 AM
Why isn't Zak S. in the red ? He openly supports the most liberal causes. He encourages his followers to harass people he has issue with. I suspect he isn't on the red for the same reason Tenkar isn't: both are still in a position to be of benefit to certain posters on this board. Zak is a notable figure with a body of well-regarded work, and Tenkar has recently promoted Venger's stuff.

Where is Zak? I didn't even notice. He should absolutely not be in the green section. He has often loudly pandered to leftist causes, and has been very public in stating that he does not support free speech, except for him and people who think like him.

Under lamentations of the flame princess. I had some trouble sorting through all that, only thing that really came up was a kinda sketchy accusation of sexual misconduct but damn if that wasn't the first second and hundredth thing on every search about him. So just assumed he was an edge lord

Lamentations is DEFINITELY Green. But if Zak is listed as a separate creator, he shouldn't be.

In addition to what I mentioned before, he took money from Defy Media (under Alex Macris/Autarch at the time) to produce a new series of "D&D With Pornstars", and then after taking the money but before producing anything he publicly and very loudly cut ties with Defy Media accusing Alex Macris of "supporting transphobia" because he hired a conservative guy (to write for Defy's Conservative News Site).

lol just checked Zak S isn't on the list at all right now I just have lamentations which isn't he no longer part of

Quote from: Shasarak on September 16, 2021, 07:46:19 PM
Can I suggest, given the recent move by the Paizo management to fight back against the cancel culture, to move Paizo to yellow.

What is this in reference to?