Quote from: Brad;1131304I think the whole polytheistic setup instead of a monotheistic one (as already pointed out) undermines any sort of historical accuracy. Sure, C&S features paganism (Wotanism in S&S and some form of druidism), but those are actual things in the real world that existed.

You are not alone in thinking that I am out of mind in regards to Harn and medieval authenticity.

Quote from: Brad;1131304You seriously think Harn is more "authentic" than C&S? Not trying to be harsh, but that is fucking ludicrous. Just because Harn is the proto-typical Hobbesian "nasty, brutish, and short" doesn't magically make it more "authentic" than C&S.

No I don't think Harn is the best because its combat and injury system are nasty brutish and short. That not a characteristics unique to Harnmaster. I consider Harn is better because it best by far at bringing the setting to life in terms in of how its depicts its inhabitants. The characters consistently feel like they are inhabitants of a medieval world rather than ho-hum classic fantasy. And it does this in far less words than C&S and later editions of Ars Magica both of which do well.

Unfortunately this only shines in the articles, the Harnworld, Harndex, Harnmaster, Pilot's Almanac and Harnmaster by themselves only offer the same high level view as C&S, L&D, Ars Magica does. And apparent different is of course the multiple deities. But you start reading the articles that details various locations in Harn a very different picture emerge. One that does a superior job of painting a picture of medieval life to adventure in.

Again I suggest reading the Harn Pottage series or the Friend, Follower, and Foes series to get a sense of this side of Harn.

Quote from: Brad;1131304I think the whole polytheistic setup instead of a monotheistic one (as already pointed out) undermines any sort of historical accuracy.

The point isn't historical accuracy it is to be medieval authentic. The point of disagreement I been having with some posters is whether having an actual monotheistic is an essential requirement of this. I don't think it is. What being missed is that Harnic use of multiple deities is not the same how Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk uses multiple deities. N. Robin Crossby didn't write his setting with a monotheistic religion but he did setup his religions in a way that the cultures that were equivalent to western Europe felt medieval in a similar (yet not the same) as a historical setting would. THis includes several kingdoms on Harn (vaguely English) and realms on the mainland continent like Shorkyne (vaguely Germany) and Trierzon (vaguely France).

While other cultures like the Ivinian Vikings feel pagan.  

I am glad you having fun with Chivalry & Sorcery. However I found it like Ars Magica far too dense taking way too much work to run a medieval campaign compared to Harnmaster and Harn. While Chivalry & Sorcery put a lot of work into writing about medieval legends and life it was not that well organized or written compared to when Ars Magica covered the material. In addition Ars Magica also brought in the Order of Hermes mythology along with the medieval material. These reason are why when it came time to buying one over the other I opted for to buy Ars Magica. I have the latest version of Chivalry & Sorcery (5th edition) but it one of those thing where I have so much medieval material that it basically too late for it to win me over with it charms. Now I don't how much Harn material you read but I have read the games I mentioned and played several of them. Anybody can check what I say about Harn by going to //www.lythia.com and browsing the extensive library of free material quality material that available.

Finally I am not interested in debating medieval historicity. If I am going to run a historical campaign by using say Columbia Games Lionheart. I am certainly not going to use a system with multiple deities like my own or Harns. I will run religion like how medieval people thought it work along with how surrounding cultures thought their religion worked. Leaving the truth as vague and confusing as it was in our own history.

And I will point out that I been running campaign with a heavy dose of medieval elements for decades. I learned for a campaign to feel medieval the NPCs have to be roleplayed like if they lived in a medieval world. That the critical element not the high level view of the metaphysics.

Quote from: Brad;1131304Side note: wrapped up our C&S Dark Albion game last night because it was becoming abundantly clear that a pseudo-medieval game was just too hard for me to run properly when I want to drink a lot. The clincher was when one of the characters got put in the stocks for mouthing off to a noble AFTER pretty much "saving the world" from some weird chaos cult. The players agreed it made perfect sense and was humorous, but it wasn't that fun in the end because the game ground to a halt. And drinking means it's harder to keep track of politicking, which is a major source of plot threads...there are only so many cults and frog demons I can throw at the characters before I have to start having them engage in courtly matters, and none of them seemed that interested. I certainly love C&S and the historical gaming, but I think 4 or 5 months is enough for now; moving on to Rules Cyclopedia and Mystara for a change of pace.

You could have stopped drinking... I guess if you won't, or can't, you might be better off running a gonzo-type game.

Quote from: Kuroth;1131360haha  Ya, I can imagine.  The black magic of spirits I say is the cause!  Witch's brew.

Running megadungeons or S&S or even Middle Earth, no issues drinking. Political stuff? Nope. If I ever run Amber again, it's gonna have to be when stone sober or the game will suck.

Quote from: estar;1131370snippy snip

I am not arguing against Harn; I have quite a few of the books and think the setting is pretty cool. But go ahead and keep attacking those windmills, good sir. No one will stop you.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1131398You could have stopped drinking... I guess if you won't, or can't, you might be better off running a gonzo-type game.

You're joking, right?

Seems a pity to end a Chivalry & Sorcery campaign that the players are still into.  Perhaps cut sessions down to two hours.  That's all I do now a days.  Personally, I think the long session length is a hurtle to these games.  Sure there are those that want to play 16 hours, but most just want to jump in and play for a fairly average sit time.

Has anyone that might stop by this thread taken a look at Kevin Crawford's new historical inspired game Wolves of God?  

The description from drivethrurpg

"Wolves of God is an old-school-inspired historical fantasy game from the maker of Stars Without Number and Godbound. Set in 710 AD, PCs take up the roles of daring English adventurers: brave Warriors, holy Saints, and sorcerous Galdormen all setting forth to brave the savage wilds of post-Roman Britain. Whether plundering ruined caesters, delving into the bewitched halls of ancient Roman Arxes, raiding the cattle of rival lords, or helping holy abbots in need of strong arms, the heroes will plunge deep into the savage past of this half-conquered island.

Within these pages, you'll get...

Guides and tools for creating adventures in early Anglo-Saxon England, with an eye for playable content and GM helps. While Wolves of God includes fantastical elements in its setting, it's possible to play the game historically straight for hard-core history enthusiasts.
System-neutral tools for building religious minsters, Roman ruins, sorcerous Arxes, Anglo-Saxon political conflicts, and all the sandbox adventuring grist to be expected from a Sine Nomine game.
A full bestiary of classic Anglo-Saxon monstrosities and fell foes, along with tools for customizing their powers and adding extra mystery to their dreadful might.
Sorcery and miracles tailored to the time and place, with classic English galdor and pious miracles available for PC use.
Guidelines for domain management and mass combat in the harsh and primitive age of the early Anglo-Saxon chieftains.
Full compatiblity with Stars Without Number: Revised edition, with guides for mixing content between the games.
So take up your spears and lift your shields, bold adventurers! Deeds of mighty heroism and the songs of the scops await your labors. Seize Wolves of God now and take your place among the mighty names of old."
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/308470/Wolves-of-God-Adventures-in-Dark-Ages-England

I  haven't read Wolves Of God yet, but it's very definitely Dark Age setting rather than medieval. Knowing Sine Nomine, it's also probably fantastic.

Yes, Wolves Of God could be considered covering a different time period alright.  It is really focused on a certain geographic area too.  


Equivalent Century
Ars Magica 13th
Lion & Dragon 15th
Pendragon 6th  (485 to 566)
Chivalry & Sorcery 14th (15th often, but in other aspects more like 12th )
Harn 8th  (8th pseudo-alternate history, with technology and trade that is 9th-14th)
Aquelarre 15th (later leading into 16th, Iberian Peninsula)
Wolves Of God 8th

I find Lamentations of the Flame Princess to be a pretty good 17th century game.  The tools are all there, just doesn't have as many setting things the others do, which is often a good thing. I like to go off the beaten path in history. There are a few adventure/modules out there that are more historical for it, rather than the more common wild ones it has propagated.

Edit: A little caveat on Chivalry & Sorcery.  I was speaking of 1st edition.  There is a new 5th edition out now, by the same team that brought 4th.  It might make other setting assumptions or further push the game into fantasy.

Pendragon nominally takes place in the 6th century, but in each period of the "Pendragon campaign" the social and tech level is artificially advanced to mimic later medieval periods; this is actually a reflection of the fact that the later Arthur stories (Mallory, for example) might be nominally set in the 6th century but they are in all appearances medieval.

Also, 1st edition Aquelarre at least is set in the 13th century, not the 15th. Maybe that was changed in some later edition.

Ya, I sure didn't like that bit in Pendragon.
Aquelarre?  hmm Thought I was looking at the Spanish 1st.  I'll have to check.

Here is the bit at the introduction of Aguelarre from 1990 (1st edition).  1350-1500.  Later 14th and all of 15th.

"El mundo de aquelarre
Aq uclarrc es un juego de rol basado en las tradiciones legendarias hispanas, ambientado en la Baja Edad Media durante los años 1350/1500. En estos años se están gestando toda una serie de corrientes de pensamiento, que finalmente darán como resultado, mucho más tarde, la aparición del Renacimiento, con nuevos valores y nuevas formas de ver la vida." (Ibáñez, Ricard  Aquelarre. Juego de Rol demoníaco medieval  Joc  1990  6)

Edit: The core book of Pendragon only really covers 485. The later decades are covered in the Great Pendragon Campaign book.  A paint-by-numbers approach campaign book, with the odd technology and culture warping   mentioned.  Lion & Dragon is a more clear authentic choice than Pendragon, particularly if the big campaign book is included in that consideration. I recall you played through that campaign with Pendragon Pundit.  I am glad you spent your time later on your own campaigns and games.

My apologies! I must have remembered it wrong. I was sure it was earlier. But OK, 14th/15th centuries.

Quote from: Kuroth;1132021Ya, I sure didn't like that bit in Pendragon.
.

I thought that was actually enormously clever. Because of course most people don't think of the ancient welsh folk tales of the early dark ages when they think of Pendragon. They think of Mallory, and Mallory's story was actually just a metaphor for the War of the Roses. Very 15th century.

We agree to disagree about Pendragon. ha

There is a pretty Amber inspired part in the Lion & Dragon Companion where the use of Tarot is discussed! The Pathwalking high level ability is pretty neat.   While the divination use of tarot is expected, the invocation rules are less so, and they are a nice straight forward lead in toward the more powerful Pathwalking.  It is a magic addition to Lion  & Dragon that isn't weighted down with excess, as often happens with supplement magic schools/systems.  It is also an excuse to buy a neat set of Medieval styled tarot. nice

Quote from: RPGPundit;1132015Pendragon nominally takes place in the 6th century, but in each period of the "Pendragon campaign" the social and tech level is artificially advanced to mimic later medieval periods; this is actually a reflection of the fact that the later Arthur stories (Mallory, for example) might be nominally set in the 6th century but they are in all appearances medieval.

   This is arguably one of the most medieval things about Pendragon. According to C.S. Lewis in The Discarded Image (a fantastic book for looking at things from a medieval literary/cosmological point of view), the concept of 'historical dress' and the like simply did not exist for the medievals, at least not the same way it does for us. The past looked just like the present, except better--the glories of Greece, Rome or Arthur's court were seen as idealized versions of the medieval present-day, not as a 'foreign country.'

Quote from: Kuroth;1132027Edit: The core book of Pendragon only really covers 485. The later decades are covered in the Great Pendragon Campaign book.  A paint-by-numbers approach campaign book, with the odd technology and culture warping   mentioned.  Lion & Dragon is a more clear authentic choice than Pendragon, particularly if the big campaign book is included in that consideration. I recall you played through that campaign with Pendragon Pundit.  I am glad you spent your time later on your own campaigns and games.

  This depends on which edition of Pendragon. 1-4th cover the whole span, with the default starting point being 531, corresponding to the 11th century, IIRC. 5th Edition is where the shift back to starting in the Uther era and relegating the later material to the GPC takes place. (It's also where Stafford really started doubling-down on the 'British Christianity' silliness, as far as I can tell; the stuff in the Book of Uther was almost painful for me to read. )

Good points Armchair.  I personally find Pendragon one of the more overrated games around.  Not bad.  Still done by a pro with a full staff for layout and all, just overrated.  Hyped a lot about ten years ago or so too.  I don't want to belabor it, but I find it a blurry mess, with author bias piled high and cloaked with a shifting facade of 'historical dress' that you are good to mention.  There are plenty that will go on about it, though. shrug