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Author Topic: Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?  (Read 7125 times)

Snowman0147

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2020, 07:45:50 PM »
Quote from: Jaeger;1131004
He is correct about the pirate PDF's though.

 I linked from ignorance because after a brush with Harn Lore over a decade ago I pay ZERO attention to who owns or does what with the IP and just linked to one of the top searches that had a breakdown of Harn religions.

I take Estar at his word on this issue, and I will amend my post.

I was refering to the fact that if there is dominating monotheistic relgion it isn't really medieval.

The pirating was your bad move, but has nothing to do with estar being delusional.

Kuroth

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2020, 09:06:09 PM »
Quote from: Slipshot762;1131018
I personally use D6 Fantasy exclusively and run a twilight zone/ravenloft type of world where time and space are only consistent out to the kingdoms edge, out to the edge of the collective perception of a community, beyond which only ether and hell are consistent features of the wilderness. One might leave arthurian england, arrive in prehistoric france, and return to 16th century england if one survives the trip through the demon haunted and largely uninhabited regions between. It's a sort of anachronistic prison, a purgatory of fractured multiverse pocket realms caused by time and space being rent asunder by the scythe of a vengeful Chronos, freed from tarterus , now a starved, skeletal grim reaper of an entity locked in perpetual war with the legions of hell he inadvertently released in his escape, and which prowl the chronal fog between the edges of kingdoms seeking to corrupt or destroy everything. At least, this was my solution to the problem of all the coolest historical places/cultures being separated by time periods. This way we can do classic rome for a few games, then ancient greece followed by holy roman empire with the odd lost and confused ww2 bomber pilot thrown in. I dunno what you would call it, Fustercluck I suppose.
Your d6 campaign seems pretty good times Slip!  Pretty darn Gygaxian campaign, with all the pocket realms and such.  His Dangerous Journeys game was all about that type of thing.
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Slipshot762

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2020, 11:28:05 PM »
Thank you, it's really a result of my inability to stick to one thing no matter how cool for a great length of time, and also an outgrowth/expression of the style of play developed by years of D6 star wars, where its a galaxy full of worlds and each can be so different and strange from the next with a raging galaxy wide civil war for filler between planetfalls. I was sorely pressed by a certain gnome of a player to sew together some kind of explanation for how we can go from dracula to arthur to conan to pirates of the carribean when all these things are from not only different geographic regions but differing time periods as well, while retaining that motiff of witchcraft and devils and hell all being nigh universally sinister. I hit upon the chronos as grim reaper and slayer of time-space thing thanks to johnny cash "behold a pale horse, it's name that sat upon it was death, and hell followed with him".

The only real consistent unchanging time-place is jerusalem, a clockwork city of bronze staffed entirely by clockwork golems guarding the path up mount zion (not even geography is safe) and out of the riven hourglass purgatory. (escorting old rabbis and their phylactries here to die and become clockwork golems is a thing one can be recruited to crusade for) The city is under eternal siege by the legions of hell, which know that at some point Chronos will have to arrive here once he has gathered all the necessary artifacts to ascend the mountain. Holy Grail, shroud of Turan, spear of destiny, ring of pilate, crown of thorns, and so on. Its a backdrop that allows me to use as much or as little of this contrived explanatory function as is required, which often isn't much really, and has both built in final bosses like Lucifer, Chronos-Reaper, Pope Pontius Pilate the Pious (lich perhaps?) and mini-bosses like Dracula or death knight ghengis khan. If after a few pirates of the carribean style games players don't want to make new characters but do want to joust against Lancelot before aiding joan of arc in rescuing Hadrian's lost legion, this backdrop makes it plausible w/o too much hand wavium.

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2020, 05:43:41 AM »
Quote from: Snowman0147;1130991
Okay ignoring estar's complete denial of reality I do have a question for Pundit.

What kind of setting is it that has one true pagan religion, has medieval to renaissance level of tech for most people, and most nations are republics?


A "medieval ren-faire funtime land" setting?
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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2020, 05:44:29 AM »
Quote from: Jaeger;1131004
He is correct about the pirate PDF's though.

 I linked from ignorance because after a brush with Harn Lore over a decade ago I pay ZERO attention to who owns or does what with the IP and just linked to one of the top searches that had a breakdown of Harn religions.

I take Estar at his word on this issue, and I will amend my post.


Thank you for correcting this. Posting links to fileshared material is a big no-no here.
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« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2020, 05:47:32 AM »
I'll add one more RPG that is much more medieval-authentic than Harn or most other games, and I'd say is in fact the closest to L&D in medieval-authenticity: Aquelarre. Until relatively recently it was only available in Spanish, but it is now available in English as someone reminded me in last night's livestream. It makes an excellent sourcebook for L&D or Dark Albion in the Iberian Peninsula. The system for the game is an obvious rip-off of BRP/Cthulhu. The setting's creatures are based on Iberian folklore, which includes stuff from Mediterranean Christian legends, some Muslim influence, and also the very very weird Basque creatures which are extremely unique to the region.  The magic is not based on the actual magical practices of the middle ages like L&D is, but it is based on medieval folk-tales and folklore of what common people imagined magic to be like, sort of. So still pretty damn medieval authentic.
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Snowman0147

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« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2020, 07:31:54 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1131065
A "medieval ren-faire funtime land" setting?


I was going for a what if type of setting.  Like what happens if Christianity never happened?  What if Rome the Empire never happened?  Instead we get nations similar to greek city states.

Kuroth

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« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2020, 07:21:21 PM »
There is a point where I want a historical set game to not have magic in it.  

I have my own write up of Traveller for historical, without psionics.

Rolemaster using just Arms Law  and Claw Law, is another I have kicked around, which is sort of OK, without Character Law in particular, where Rolemaster loses most of its charm.  

Some may say GURPS!, but it is such a mess to do that for players, saying you can use this but not this, this but not this, all day for the rule book (booklets for me since I use GURPS 1st).

Fantasy Trip Melee can be OK, though could use any tactic game for single combat at that point, really.  

D&D classes filled out with none magic classes and all the rules for non-magic things switched on, which can be a pretty full game in old AD&D 1, since a few not often used rules and guidelines are easier to switch on without juggling magic at the same time in a session.
 
Others might say Pendragon, which might be a good option for some (minus the fairly sideline magic parts, of course), doesn't hit Camelot as I prefer, knowing quite a bit about the legends and period.  

There are a lot of lesser known games, of course.  I like a historical to have a little rule depth on the ref side, since it is possible without magic taking up that management space.  On the player side, I always like it to be that they don't even need to see the cover of a rule book, if they don't want. ha
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« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2020, 05:58:06 AM »
Quote from: Kuroth;1131129
There is a point where I want a historical set game to not have magic in it.  

I have my own write up of Traveller for historical, without psionics.

Rolemaster using just Arms Law  and Claw Law, is another I have kicked around, which is sort of OK, without Character Law in particular, where Rolemaster loses most of its charm.  

Some may say GURPS!, but it is such a mess to do that for players, saying you can use this but not this, this but not this, all day for the rule book (booklets for me since I use GURPS 1st).

Fantasy Trip Melee can be OK, though could use any tactic game for single combat at that point, really.  

D&D classes filled out with none magic classes and all the rules for non-magic things switched on, which can be a pretty full game in old AD&D 1, since a few not often used rules and guidelines are easier to switch on without juggling magic at the same time in a session.
 
Others might say Pendragon, which might be a good option for some (minus the fairly sideline magic parts, of course), doesn't hit Camelot as I prefer, knowing quite a bit about the legends and period.  

There are a lot of lesser known games, of course.  I like a historical to have a little rule depth on the ref side, since it is possible without magic taking up that management space.  On the player side, I always like it to be that they don't even need to see the cover of a rule book, if they don't want. ha

Well, there's no reason why you couldn't run Lion & Dragon without magisters, clerics or cymri. You could add some of the new classes (all non-magical) from the Old School Companion too.
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Kuroth

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« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2020, 08:22:01 AM »
Certainly Pundit.  One of the cool things about the companion is that a magic free historical campaign becomes an easier thing to do, while still seeing how to ref interesting campaigns.  The domain management and mass battles rules also add some rules to flesh out the game, when taking away the magic.  The sections on merchants and caravans, as well as the guidelines for courtly events are also quite helpful.  

To speak of magic again, I liked the way you discuss magic tomes as magic diaries in the companion.  Very useful.
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« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2020, 03:57:05 AM »
Quote from: Kuroth;1131196
Certainly Pundit.  One of the cool things about the companion is that a magic free historical campaign becomes an easier thing to do, while still seeing how to ref interesting campaigns.  The domain management and mass battles rules also add some rules to flesh out the game, when taking away the magic.  The sections on merchants and caravans, as well as the guidelines for courtly events are also quite helpful.  

To speak of magic again, I liked the way you discuss magic tomes as magic diaries in the companion.  Very useful.

Thank you!
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


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Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
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Brad

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« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2020, 10:49:17 AM »
Quote from: estar;1130577
My personal order of authencity runs

1 Harn
2 Ars Magica
3 C & S
4 Lion & Dragon
5 Pendragon


And I would swap the order of C & S and Lion & Dragon when Lion & Dragon gains supplemental material that expands some of the details found in the core book. Perhaps even to #2 due to its playability compared to C & S and Ars Magica.


You seriously think Harn is more "authentic" than C&S? Not trying to be harsh, but that is fucking ludicrous. Just because Harn is the proto-typical Hobbesian "nasty, brutish, and short" doesn't magically make it more "authentic" than C&S. I think the whole polytheistic setup instead of a monotheistic one (as already pointed out) undermines any sort of historical accuracy. Sure, C&S features paganism (Wotanism in S&S and some form of druidism), but those are actual things in the real world that existed. The only real liberty C&S takes is that you won't be immediately burned at the stake for having heretical views, and can maybe be somewhat tolerated in normal society. This is what L&D does as well, because, you know, it's a game.

Side note: wrapped up our C&S Dark Albion game last night because it was becoming abundantly clear that a pseudo-medieval game was just too hard for me to run properly when I want to drink a lot. The clincher was when one of the characters got put in the stocks for mouthing off to a noble AFTER pretty much "saving the world" from some weird chaos cult. The players agreed it made perfect sense and was humorous, but it wasn't that fun in the end because the game ground to a halt. And drinking means it's harder to keep track of politicking, which is a major source of plot threads...there are only so many cults and frog demons I can throw at the characters before I have to start having them engage in courtly matters, and none of them seemed that interested. I certainly love C&S and the historical gaming, but I think 4 or 5 months is enough for now; moving on to Rules Cyclopedia and Mystara for a change of pace.
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PencilBoy99

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« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2020, 11:17:57 AM »
Agreed re Aquelarre. Book is also gorgeous.

Kuroth

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« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2020, 08:21:47 PM »
Quote from: Brad;1131304
Side note: wrapped up our C&S Dark Albion game last night because it was becoming abundantly clear that a pseudo-medieval game was just too hard for me to run properly when I want to drink a lot.
haha  Ya, I can imagine.  The black magic of spirits I say is the cause!  Witch's brew.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1131309
Agreed re Aquelarre. Book is also gorgeous.
I had interesting discussion with past poster JibbaJabba about Aquelarre on this forum.  A high quality game of a very well applied aesthetic.  I little too much toward the occult focus for me, but a great game.  Originally in Spanish, of course.
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« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2020, 08:38:26 PM »
I played Harn with my group for about two years. It is a good system, BUT you have to consider something else if you plan on having lots of fighting. I found that t was difficult to create a lot of situations that were challenging but not overly deadly because of how combat worked. Everyone had a blast with the combat table, but the best fighter in the group often found himself wounded.