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Author Topic: Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?  (Read 4183 times)

Kuroth

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2020, 06:43:26 PM »
Hey, you hit something that kind of bothered me about Harn, unwarranted pretension.
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estar

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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2020, 09:11:08 PM »
Quote from: Kuroth;1130642

Since I know you are here Robert, I would like to say that I really like the map you made for Gabor Lux's Castle Xyntillan!  Love that adventure module by aka Milan.
Thanks, it was a fun map to draw especially after I found the a scan of the 70s era zipatone for those trees and was able to recreate them.


Quote from: Kuroth;1130642
You love Harn!  That is cool.  The Lady of the Flowing Red in Angcaradina brandishing Avarkiel before Hyvrik was roused.
And it scare me that I know exactly what that entire line meant. Go Larani!


Quote from: Kuroth;1130642

Edit: In your guys' somewhat short list of medieval focused games, I would put Ars Magica at 5, since magus are off the chart powerful.
Pendragon and Ars Magica has had my respect as far as medieval roleplaying because of the supplemental material. Even tho the core of the former is the Arthurian myth and the core of the latter is the forementioned magus. Ars Magica 5e really fleshes this out with their supplements including some only lightly touched in other systems like Art and Academe.

estar

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« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2020, 09:18:00 PM »
Quote from: Kuroth;1130646
Hey, you hit something that kind of bothered me about Harn, unwarranted pretension.
Harn is not perfect. For example Burzyn Castle article makes an straight forward but contradictory remark that humans can't build round towers. However since the current run of material took off in the late aughts, has been really top notch. Mainly because the writing team wisely decided to expand the format just enough to cover personalities as well as location details. Because it still tersely written it nearly always has a high density of usefulness.

Kuroth

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« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2020, 02:46:43 AM »
Don't let my unwarranted pretension comment bother you ESTAR. (phrasing ha...)  I think that about rpgs all the time. haha  People work hard to take the enjoyment out of them.  Why do they do that?  ehh  Anyway, I like your Wilderlands things too, as an old fan of Judges Guild.

I like how Harnworld is kind of like the old Greyhawk Folio in its overview and structure.
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Anselyn

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« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2020, 04:48:10 AM »
Quote from: Kuroth;1130684
People work hard to take the enjoyment out of them.  Why do they do that?

I just think different people have different levels of what's a dealbreaker for them and a game. As soon as you get into "authenticity" then there's some level for something that breaks the versimilitude.  

I don't know if this counts as pretension or luck but having grown up in a city with (some remaining) medieval city walls then the spell of autheticity can be broken.

Kuroth

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« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2020, 05:03:35 AM »
I don't mean like you, me or anyone observing a game, but rather an author of a game that intentionally writes in such a manner. It happens a lot.  Not just games, though.  Perhaps a rewording would be helpful, false pride.

Edit: it is just a rhetorical question. Don't worry about it.  Nice to have some readily tangible connection to the past about, nice!  As long as it doesn't reach the feeling of living in a zoo, museum or tomb, which I have heard on occasion from those that live in locations that are centers of such type.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 05:29:51 AM by Kuroth »
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RPGPundit

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2020, 06:37:59 AM »
Quote from: estar;1130577
My personal order of authencity runs

1 Harn
2 Ars Magica
3 C & S
4 Lion & Dragon
5 Pendragon


And I would swap the order of C & S and Lion & Dragon when Lion & Dragon gains supplemental material that expands some of the details found in the core book. Perhaps even to #2 due to its playability compared to C & S and Ars Magica.


So... apparently you're not very in the know, because there's about 50 L&D supplements out now. And a 266 page sourcebook.

And again, it's actual medieval Europe. Harn isn't.
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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2020, 06:42:09 AM »
Quote from: estar;1130578


From Harnworld 1st edition Page 5



Wow. Broken pantheism where everyone believes there's hundreds of gods and yet every person worships just one. That's totally like medieval europe and nothing at all like the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Mystara, and every other D&D setting.

Quote

The REAL Medieval World spans from Charlemagne to Columbus at the very least. Which one is more real medieval? England? France? Germany? Poland? Spain? Italy? My view all are equally medieval although each have very different situation based on the reigon and specific time period. So an author writing a RPG targeting the medieval era has to be an editor and pick and choose which details to talk about and represent with mechanics. Some like the dominance of the church will be a common theme irregardless of region or time period. Other like manoralism and feudalism will be dependent on specifics.

I found doing historical roleplaying to be messy as source material and details are incomplete or inconsistent when boiled down to the level of the individual that RPGs focus on. Messy in the sense that I have to do just as much work to flesh out those missing details for historical materials as I would do for a fictional setting. Since there only so far I can bend a historical setting to setup a situation I am interested in running as a campaign, I find it easier to do that with a fictional setting.

So when one combines picking which medieval culture one is depicting with incompleteness of source material the result is that creating a fictional setting like Harn is just as valid as far as runing a Medieval Authethic campaign goes.


Or... play a medieval-authentic setting designed for a specific medieval period. Like say, England in the mid 1400s. Do we know any games that somehow manage that and are thus more valid than a fictional setting?
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estar

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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2020, 08:44:47 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1130805
So... apparently you're not very in the know, because there's about 50 L&D supplements out now. And a 266 page sourcebook.
Then I stand corrected on that point.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1130805
And again, it's actual medieval Europe. Harn isn't.
Doesn't need to be actual Medieval Europe to be medieval authentic.


Quote from: RPGPundit;1130806
Wow. Broken pantheism where everyone believes there's hundreds of gods and yet every person worships just one. That's totally like medieval europe and nothing at all like the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Mystara, and every other D&D setting.
Apparently you not very in the know about how Harnic religions work then.


Quote from: RPGPundit;1130805

Or... play a medieval-authentic setting designed for a specific medieval period. Like say, England in the mid 1400s. Do we know any games that somehow manage that and are thus more valid than a fictional setting?
Can't see the forest for the tree much?

Yes I get that you compete against the other RPG on the list so it important that you continually have to stake out how different you are when dozens of RPG titles are released every days. Give it a rest here, you got the kudos for altering and tweaking classic D&D into system that a captures a lot of what happened in medieval history and thought.

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« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2020, 07:01:42 PM »
Dude, I'm not saying Harn is a bad setting. It's a very interesting setting, though very badly organized until you can get the gist of it in a single user-friendly book.

It's just that trying to argue that it's more medieval-authentic than settings actually set in Medieval Europe with an effort at some kind of authenticity (be it historical or mythical like Pendragon does) is a stretch.
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Jaeger

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« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2020, 10:41:30 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1130806
Wow. Broken pantheism where everyone believes there's hundreds of gods and yet every person worships just one. That's totally like medieval europe and nothing at all like the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Mystara, and every other D&D setting.
...[/URL]?

Quote from: estar;1130811
...
 Apparently you not very in the know about how Harnic religions work then.
...


Not too hard to find out:
Quote from: Edited Link
BEWARE PIRATES! In one of the top google searches on Harn Religion. Read at peril to your soul! Arrrrrr Matey! .

So there's ten gods instead of dozens.

Pundits argument of Broken pantheism still holds.


People ridiculously underestimate the effect Monotheistic Christianity had in shaping the medieval world.

Every published D&D setting holds to the completely false conceit that you can have a "Medieval European" setting, but with paganism.

It's simple:
Greco-Roman Legacy + Germanic Traditions + Monotheistic Christianity = Medieval Europe.  #WesternCivilization.

You don't get Medieval Europe If you change any one of these ingredients.

Most fantasy settings seem to have no problem coming up with fantasy analogues/equivalents of the Greco-Roman legacy and Germanic traditions.

But they all fall flat on their faces when it comes to religions.

Dead. Flat.


Quote from: estar;1130811
...
 Doesn't need to be actual Medieval Europe to be medieval authentic.
...

You are correct...

But you do need to have your fantasy world analogues/equivalents of the three main ingredients of Medieval Europe, for a Medieval Authenticish setting.

And if you don't have a Monotheistic religion for your medieval culture, then you are not medieval authentic.

Period.


You don't have to do straight-up Christianity with the serial numbers filed off like Pundit does in Lion and Dragon.

You would need to be imaginative, but a "fantasy monotheism" can be done.

To regurgitate part of my post from an older thread:

If you want to have a Monotheistic religion for your Medieval setting, you will need to have the following "Christian" analogues/equivalents:

1: A Monotheistic religion

2: This religion must command virtuous behavior and the rejection of Sins

3: It should promote a universal morality

4: It should promote some measure of forgiveness.



The main reason you don't see Monotheism that often in RPG settings is because all the writers just take the easy Fake "polytheism" cop-out and run with it.

IMHO it is because they lack any real understanding of the historical effect Monotheistic Christianity had on Europe before and after the fall of the Roman Empire.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 04:16:02 PM by Jaeger »
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estar

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« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2020, 12:34:55 AM »
Quote from: Jaeger;1130951
Not too hard to find out:
So there's ten gods instead of dozens.


Please don't post links to pirated PDFs.

Quote from: Jaeger;1130951
Greco-Roman Legacy + Germanic Traditions + Monotheistic Christianity = Medieval Europe.  #WesternCivilization.


I concur with this.



Quote from: Jaeger;1130951


But they all fall flat on their faces when it comes to religions.
(snip)

If you want to have a Monotheistic religion for your Medieval setting, you will need to have the following "Christian" analogues/equivalents:

1: A Monotheistic religion

2: This religion must command virtuous behavior and the rejection of Sins

3: It should promote a universal morality

4: It should promote some measure of forgiveness.


My take on it is that you need one dominant religion for the culture in question with a single deity as the head and a hierarchy for the rest, espousing a universal morality that dictate virtuous behavior, the idea of sin, and a means for forgiveness.

The way I handle this in the Majestic Wilderlands is that there is a culture the Ghinorians who believe themselves to be the chosen people of Mitra the goddess of honor and justice. That her creed, the five-fold path is relevant in all times and places as its words are a manifestation of creation itself. That Mitra purpose is teach the path and defend those who follow it. So Mitra is not GOD but an agent of an unnamed forces that brought the universe into being.

Much like the Romans on Earth, the Ghinorian established an empire that reached every corner of the known world bring their love of legal system and Mitra's word to multiple other cultures. However the empire experienced internal conflict and collapsed and the former colonies merged with local cultures to form successor kingdoms and still supporting the Church of Mitra. In the north, the local cultures I designed shared a lot with historical germanic tribes. Thus merged with Roman like Ghinorian to lay the grounds for the medieval culture of the present day in my setting.

Then I reinvented it for my Points of Light/Blackmarsh setting

In the loose shared setting I created there was a Bright Empire that spread across the known world. Originating in the city of Ramos. Like Rome, Ramos was a republic and transition into an empire. Then they had their version of the troubles of the 3rd century. The empire was reborn as the Bright Empire when philosophical revolution occurred that united four pagan church into one. Delaquain, justice; Veritas, truth; Thoth, knowledge;  and Sarrath war; Much like I did with Mitra, the United Church viewed the world was created by an unnamed creator. That was a universal truth to how one must live, that mankind was fallible and prone to sin. That the four deities of the church each represent an aspect of the truth. Each deity was an agent of the creator that taught their aspect of the truth. Unlike a pagan pantheon, the 'truth" was a fundamental aspect of creation not the deities themselves.

However the establishment of the Bright Empire and the spread of the United Church was only able to stave off collapse for two centuries. The Bright Empire became torn by conflict, and the surrounding barbarian cultures took advantage of this and invaded. This culminated in the Shattering a battle that destroyed the last legions capable of holding the entire empire together.

Afterwards the barbarians culture merged with that of the Ramosan particularly in the old northern provinces of the empire. Again these culture I depicted as basically Germanic. The United Church was also split. In the south, the Bright Empire never lost its continuity but the United Church hierarchy became dominated by those who followed Sarrath. Eventually the common name for the empire became the Ochre Empire.

In the north a variety of kingdoms arose based on the new fusion cultures. There the United Church became dominated by the followers of Veritas as the follower of Delaquain were gutted in the civil wars that led to the Shattering. By the "present" Delaquain only had a small following in the northern church.

Like I said the south with the Ochre Empire retained continuity with the Bright Empire so I generally borrow a lot from our world's Byzantine Empire. The north collapsed harder and a kaleidoscope of successor kingdoms emerged. Thus leading to a feudal economy and a medieval culture. In recent centuries a Grand Kingdom has emerged in the north and is now a rival to the Ochre Empire. I borrow a lot from Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire for ideas. There are still many independent feudal kingdoms.

While I don't have an Unconquered Sun or One God in either the Majestic Wilderlands or Blackmarsh, the medieval cultures are thoroughly dominated by churches teaching a universal truth with the forgiveness of sins. My workaround for multiple deities is that that they are agents in service of a higher truth. They and the lesser divinities function much like archangels and saints do in our history's medieval church. Supernatural beings that guide and intercede in the name of a higher truth.

I run both in campaigns and the players felt they were medieval although obviously not historical. They felt it was medieval because NPCs and PCs were expected to act and did act just like our world's medieval counterparts and acting for similar reasons fear for their souls in the afterlife. The impact of the church in both setting on their cultures  was also consistent with the impact of western and eastern christian churches on the cultures of our history.






Quote from: Jaeger;1130951
The main reason you don't see Monotheism that often in RPG settings is because all the writers just take the easy Fake "polytheism" cop-out and run with it.
My opinion because it touches too close to real life issues due to most RPGs being sold in western civilization.

Quote from: Jaeger;1130951

You would need to be imaginative, but a "fantasy monotheism" can be done.


Quote from: Jaeger;1130951

IMHO it is because they lack any real understanding of the historical effect Monotheistic Christianity had on Europe before and after the fall of the Roman Empire.
I am quite aware of the effect and thought it through when designing my take. I feel like the debate between the Pundit and I and now you has elements of what happened over the Filioque. How important it was for a time and how unimportant it seems now centuries later compared to other religious issues.

There needs to be universal truth, however you don't need a omnipotent, omniscience, divine creator that is worshipped to make it work. In both of my takes there is the One, who is similar to God of the Bible. However in both the Majestic Wilderlands and Blackmarsh, he elected not reveal himself to be worshipped, instead he appointed others to guide and intercede. Now as to why he seem to be chill with these being being worshipped as deities is an answer that nobody knows. Only that in both settings, after centuries, one or more cultures figured out that the deities were agents of a unnamed higher power and a religion grew from their insight that over time encompassed other cultures much like the monotheistic religions of our own world did.

Quote from: Jaeger;1130951

Pundits argument of Broken pantheism still holds.

Again don't link to pirated PDfs. In the Kingdoms of Kaldor, Melderyn, Kanday, and Chybisa. The churches of Larani, Peoni, and Save K'nor function in their respective society much in the same way the religions I described do in my culture. They dominate the culture of all four kingdom. They all teach a higher truth and so on. The Church of Larani is dominate, the churches of Peoni and Save K'nor are their own corner much like various order of monks and shrines dedicated to saints.

The exception in Harn are Orbaal which are pagan Vikings. The Elves and Dwarves which have their own thing. Tharda which is a relic of an older empire and a religous melting pot. And Rethem which was once a barbarian kingdom carved out of the empire that Thara formed out of.

The religion articles don't come off medieval, however when you read the location articles for Harn it become apparent how religion work within the setting.  Hence to me, Harn feels and play medieval authentic but it very much it not historical. I opted for my own setting to be more overt with the monothestic elements.

Snowman0147

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« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2020, 01:42:14 PM »
Okay ignoring estar's complete denial of reality I do have a question for Pundit.

What kind of setting is it that has one true pagan religion, has medieval to renaissance level of tech for most people, and most nations are republics?

Jaeger

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« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2020, 04:12:49 PM »
Quote from: Snowman0147;1130991
Okay ignoring estar's complete denial of reality I do have a question for Pundit....

He is correct about the pirate PDF's though.

 I linked from ignorance because after a brush with Harn Lore over a decade ago I pay ZERO attention to who owns or does what with the IP and just linked to one of the top searches that had a breakdown of Harn religions.

I take Estar at his word on this issue, and I will amend my post.
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« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2020, 06:24:39 PM »
I tried ars magicka once and couldn't pull it off, I liked mythical europe enough but the troop of characters playstyle was too far afield of what i was used to, I could not grasp the everyone has a mage character and additional characters that serve that character thing. I also did not like the magic system. Never tried Lion & Dragon though I dig its cover art in a big way. But given that I hear that it's basically oldschool d&d for the most part I would recommend that over ars magicka. For me ars magicka was like Rifts, kickass setting, poor rules construction.

I personally use D6 Fantasy exclusively and run a twilight zone/ravenloft type of world where time and space are only consistent out to the kingdoms edge, out to the edge of the collective perception of a community, beyond which only ether and hell are consistent features of the wilderness. One might leave arthurian england, arrive in prehistoric france, and return to 16th century england if one survives the trip through the demon haunted and largely uninhabited regions between. It's a sort of anachronistic prison, a purgatory of fractured multiverse pocket realms caused by time and space being rent asunder by the scythe of a vengeful Chronos, freed from tarterus , now a starved, skeletal grim reaper of an entity locked in perpetual war with the legions of hell he inadvertently released in his escape, and which prowl the chronal fog between the edges of kingdoms seeking to corrupt or destroy everything. At least, this was my solution to the problem of all the coolest historical places/cultures being separated by time periods. This way we can do classic rome for a few games, then ancient greece followed by holy roman empire with the odd lost and confused ww2 bomber pilot thrown in. I dunno what you would call it, Fustercluck I suppose.