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Author Topic: Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?  (Read 4242 times)

RPGPundit

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2020, 03:51:27 PM »
Lion & Dragon is medieval, and medieval-authentic.  Harn is more "Late dark ages", and "late dark ages semi-authentic".
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Kuroth

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2020, 04:32:47 AM »
The way Lion & Dragon handles faith is much closer to history too, much more so than Harn.  Ars Magica magus are extremely powerful, more or less on another plane of existence compared to regular people.  Ever play Mage?  Like that.  I think Ars Magica would be ok for a game where you want that, though.  I have thought that it would be neat to play Witcher's world with Ars Magica, where the players play sorceresses using Ars Magica, for example.  Generally prefer Lion & Dragon, which is very excellent.  Edit: It is important to note that you need players that actually really want to play Ars Magica, because playing a magus in that takes a fairly large amount of player involvement in a lot of things.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 04:48:55 AM by Kuroth »
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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2020, 02:21:54 AM »
Quote from: Kuroth;1130148
The way Lion & Dragon handles faith is much closer to history too, much more so than Harn.

That's the biggest reason why I describe Harn as "semi-authentic". It's certainly a lot more authentic as a dark-ages RPG than most RPGs out there, but it's still not really Authentic having gone the full-paganism route.
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estar

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2020, 02:42:47 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1130087
Lion & Dragon is medieval, and medieval-authentic.  Harn is more "Late dark ages", and "late dark ages semi-authentic".

Harn sits squarely in the 11th to 13th century range in its use of medieval elements It is very much a medieval rpg. Harn the region outside of religion is England 12th century from economic to many social more. Very much the same time period targeted by Lion & Dragon and Ars Magica. Where it differs is in its religions. But even there it strongly echoes medieval themes espeically with kingdoms like Kanday, Kaldor, Chybisa, and Melderyn due to how the Church of Larani and Peoni functions.

This is especially edivant at the level of individual characters as Harn spends a lot of time detailing the lives and doings of the lower social rungs compared to other RPG including Lion & Dragon.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1130269
but it's still not really Authentic having gone the full-paganism route.
It not fully pagan. A lot of thought in into how Harnic religion works and why it familiar medieval elements. By the original author N Robin Crossby, and the authors that followed him.

The most detailed work on the subject is the Summa Venâriva - A Social History of Venârivè. Venârivè being the region that Harn is part of.

https://www.kelestia.com/summa-venariva
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 02:47:24 PM by estar »

Kuroth

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2020, 07:42:32 PM »
Ya, the way Harn handles religion makes me feel like I may as well play in the Witcher's world or something.  It is a fine setting and all, but it doesn't make me think it is a historical focused game.  That said, I did set up a campaign plan for running Harn under Lion & Dragon.  One of the things I did was change all of the deities (cults) to denominations of one faith, well most of them.  Somewhat protestant rework of the setting, if you like. I also ignored all the magic suggestions for the setting, replacing them with those in Lion & Dragon.
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estar

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2020, 10:11:36 AM »
The metaphysics are different but in terms how society behaves there is little to distinguish four out of the seven harn kingdoms from their 12th century counterparts. In these four kingdoms, the chruch of Larani funciton much like the catholic church, Church of Peoni like one of the religous orders dedicated to the poor and poverty, and the Church of Save K'nor much like a monastic order.

The Vikings are still pagan, Thardic Republic is somewhat like a league of Itallan city state. Rethem is also it own kind of pagan dominated by the worship of a tyrannical god of fire and the remenent of religon centered on the god of the undead.

One can quibble over the details, but Harn and Harnmaster stand along with Chivarly & Socery, Lion & Dragon, Pendragon, Ars Magica where the focus is on medieval fantasy which character doing things that would make sense in Europe's Middle Ages. Some like Pendragon and Ars Magica are more focused on specific elements (Arthurian myth, and secret order of mag) but both have supplements and section dealing with medieval life and character doing things that is not out of place in a medieval setting.

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2020, 01:23:39 PM »
Quote from: estar;1129939
Likewise for HM


Yeah, but I never said HM was unplayable. Perhaps you'd like to back up your claim that C&S is?

Kuroth

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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2020, 07:27:25 PM »
I have Harn and  Chivalry & Sorcery 1st (well 1.5 in a way), and I can say they are both playable.   Chivalry & Sorcery 1 is only a problem for those that attempt to use all of it at once in their first campaign or running it with new players.    Harn's thing is the problem of what to buy to make a campaign plan. ha  Focus on a single nation or even a portion of a nation and nothing more for that first campaign. Still, Harnworld and say 5 region focused items will still set you back a bit. ha
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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2020, 12:43:44 AM »
Quote from: estar;1130320
Harn sits squarely in the 11th to 13th century range in its use of medieval elements It is very much a medieval rpg. Harn the region outside of religion is England 12th century from economic to many social more. Very much the same time period targeted by Lion & Dragon and Ars Magica. Where it differs is in its religions. But even there it strongly echoes medieval themes espeically with kingdoms like Kanday, Kaldor, Chybisa, and Melderyn due to how the Church of Larani and Peoni functions.

I could have been mistaken, I'm going from memory. I just recall it being closer to 9th/10th century.

Quote
This is especially edivant at the level of individual characters as Harn spends a lot of time detailing the lives and doings of the lower social rungs compared to other RPG including Lion & Dragon.

Well, I remember the almost-unmanageable Encyclopeida Harnica or whatever.  "more (badly-organized extremely pedantic minutiae-obsessed non-adventuring-related) trivia about peasant farm life!" is not necessarily the game advantage you seem to think it is.

Quote
It not fully pagan. A lot of thought in into how Harnic religion works and why it familiar medieval elements. By the original author N Robin Crossby, and the authors that followed him.

There isn't a single universal catholic and apostolic church that governs the whole of the civilized world in the name of one all-encompassing omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity, is there?


Quote
The most detailed work on the subject is the Summa Venâriva - A Social History of Venârivè. Venârivè being the region that Harn is part of.

https://www.kelestia.com/summa-venariva

See, another downside.  Obviously, anyone who wants to run a medieval-authentic game is going to just HAVE to read at least a bit of (hopefully carefully organized and usable and easy to digest) material about the medieval world, medieval culture and medieval life. But if he's going to have to do that, why not learn about the REAL medieval world, instead of a made up place with funny accents on all the place names?
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2020, 12:46:31 AM »
Quote from: Kuroth;1130383
Ya, the way Harn handles religion makes me feel like I may as well play in the Witcher's world or something.  It is a fine setting and all, but it doesn't make me think it is a historical focused game.  That said, I did set up a campaign plan for running Harn under Lion & Dragon.  One of the things I did was change all of the deities (cults) to denominations of one faith, well most of them.  Somewhat protestant rework of the setting, if you like. I also ignored all the magic suggestions for the setting, replacing them with those in Lion & Dragon.


A good compromise! And your "witcher" analogy is probably very apt. Witcher is "medieval-esque" and sort of "slavic-esque", but it can't really be called fully medieval-authentic or "just like playing in historical poland".
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


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ARROWS OF INDRA
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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2020, 12:48:20 AM »
Quote from: estar;1130454
The metaphysics are different but in terms how society behaves there is little to distinguish four out of the seven harn kingdoms from their 12th century counterparts. In these four kingdoms, the chruch of Larani funciton much like the catholic church, Church of Peoni like one of the religous orders dedicated to the poor and poverty, and the Church of Save K'nor much like a monastic order.

The Vikings are still pagan, Thardic Republic is somewhat like a league of Itallan city state. Rethem is also it own kind of pagan dominated by the worship of a tyrannical god of fire and the remenent of religon centered on the god of the undead.

One can quibble over the details, but Harn and Harnmaster stand along with Chivarly & Socery, Lion & Dragon, Pendragon, Ars Magica where the focus is on medieval fantasy which character doing things that would make sense in Europe's Middle Ages. Some like Pendragon and Ars Magica are more focused on specific elements (Arthurian myth, and secret order of mag) but both have supplements and section dealing with medieval life and character doing things that is not out of place in a medieval setting.


No one is saying it's like the Forgotten Realms in terms of inauthenticity or anything.

What I'm saying is that if we take that list you just made and order it by Most Authentic to Least Authentic it would go:
1. Lion & Dragon
2. Pendragon
3. C&S
4. Ars Magica
5. Harn
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


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ARROWS OF INDRA
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estar

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Lion & Dragon vs. Ars Magica?
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2020, 08:21:02 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1130542
No one is saying it's like the Forgotten Realms in terms of inauthenticity or anything.

What I'm saying is that if we take that list you just made and order it by Most Authentic to Least Authentic it would go:
1. Lion & Dragon
2. Pendragon
3. C&S
4. Ars Magica
5. Harn

My personal order of authencity runs

1 Harn
2 Ars Magica
3 C & S
4 Lion & Dragon
5 Pendragon


And I would swap the order of C & S and Lion & Dragon when Lion & Dragon gains supplemental material that expands some of the details found in the core book. Perhaps even to #2 due to its playability compared to C & S and Ars Magica.

estar

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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2020, 08:55:44 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1130539
Well, I remember the almost-unmanageable Encyclopeida Harnica or whatever.  "more (badly-organized extremely pedantic minutiae-obsessed non-adventuring-related) trivia about peasant farm life!" is not necessarily the game advantage you seem to think it is.

The current state of how Harn articles are written is represented well by the fan made Harn Pottage series on Lythia. At first Harn was tersely written by NRC, over the years the style has loosend up to include more details on individual personalities including adventure hooks.

A more recent example is the Tashal Royal Amphitheater also fan made. It tersely sums of the details of how a medieval theater works as well as giving some adventuring hooks.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1130539
There isn't a single universal catholic and apostolic church that governs the whole of the civilized world in the name of one all-encompassing omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity, is there?
No however from the viewpoint of individuals in most Harnic cultures it might as well be.

From Harnworld 1st edition Page 5
Quote
THE GODS OF HARN
The inhabitants of Harn are pantheistic; they believe in teh existence of the ten major (and hundreds of minor) deitis., but most Harnians will worship only one of these.

From On Divinity Page 5
Quote
Polytheism & Belief
Hârnians believe in multiple gods, but most worship one (or sometimes two or three) at most. A follower of Laráni believes in Môrgath the same way that a medieval Christian believes in Satan. There is a considerable difference between belief and adherence.

Mix in the details of the religion that surrounds Larani, Peoni, and other dieties the result feel medieval authentic.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1130539
See, another downside
No you don't HAVE to read it, the medievalness of the Harnic religions is quite apparent from the core material. But is one is to nit pick the details are there explaing why the things are the way they are.

However there a more approachable work called On Divinity a 22 page essay by N. Robin Crossby on how he view religion and how he applies to Harn and his campaign. Again it is nothing one has to have but there if one is interested.


Quote from: RPGPundit;1130539
Obviously, anyone who wants to run a medieval-authentic game is going to just HAVE to read at least a bit of (hopefully carefully organized and usable and easy to digest) material about the medieval world, medieval culture and medieval life. But if he's going to have to do that, why not learn about the REAL medieval world, instead of a made up place with funny accents on all the place names?


The REAL Medieval World spans from Charlemagne to Columbus at the very least. Which one is more real medieval? England? France? Germany? Poland? Spain? Italy? My view all are equally medieval although each have very different situation based on the reigon and specific time period. So an author writing a RPG targeting the medieval era has to be an editor and pick and choose which details to talk about and represent with mechanics. Some like the dominance of the church will be a common theme irregardless of region or time period. Other like manoralism and feudalism will be dependent on specifics.

I found doing historical roleplaying to be messy as source material and details are incomplete or inconsistent when boiled down to the level of the individual that RPGs focus on. Messy in the sense that I have to do just as much work to flesh out those missing details for historical materials as I would do for a fictional setting. Since there only so far I can bend a historical setting to setup a situation I am interested in running as a campaign, I find it easier to do that with a fictional setting.

So when one combines picking which medieval culture one is depicting with incompleteness of source material the result is that creating a fictional setting like Harn is just as valid as far as runing a Medieval Authethic campaign goes.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 09:01:40 AM by estar »

Kuroth

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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2020, 06:23:55 PM »
You love Harn!  That is cool.  The Lady of the Flowing Red in Angcaradina brandishing Avarkiel before Hyvrik was roused.

Since I know you are here Robert, I would like to say that I really like the map you made for Gabor Lux's Castle Xyntillan!  Love that adventure module by aka Milan.


Edit: In your guys' somewhat short list of medieval focused games, I would put Ars Magica at 5, since magus are off the chart powerful.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 06:31:19 PM by Kuroth »
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Anselyn

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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2020, 06:40:58 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1130542
Most Authentic to Least Authentic

I remember the exact point that Harn lost me. I was reading it (not quite sure exactly what) and it proudly explained that for authenticity and realism all city walls are circular in Harn to maximise the area enclosed for the length of wall. I just thought: "Bollocks! You don't actually know anything about medieval cities do you".