Quote from: robiswrong;830585The typical difference is that the "hooks" lead to linear adventures - mini railroads.

Are you saying that the difference between table top sandboxes and videogames is that the hooks in videogames lead to linear adventures that are mini railroads?

Quote from: Bren;830589Are you saying that the difference between table top sandboxes and videogames is that the hooks in videogames lead to linear adventures that are mini railroads?

Personally, I disagree with that statement, (not you, Bren, you're asking a question), linear adventures are not railroads.  They just have a beginning and an end.

A railroad is when there's only ONE path to progression.  No matter what happens, you hit station A,B,C and D in that order, and nothing anyone can do, including the conductor can change it.

A linear adventure is like a road trip. Sure, you're heading to Las Vegas from Cleveland, but unless there's a time restraint, there's a lot of stuff you can do between the cities.

Quote from: Bren;830589Are you saying that the difference between table top sandboxes and videogames is that the hooks in videogames lead to linear adventures that are mini railroads?

I think that's parsing it a bit too much. If you're doing a Sandbox and the NPC's are working towards a goal, and the PC's are working on a conflicting goal - is that linear?

"Linear" to me is achieving some predestined goal as prescribed by the GM or by ends that the PC's endeavor towards without consequence.

The moment you as a GM put the PC's through an adventure where the outcome is predestined because you decided to put them there - you're on the rails. If the players choose to kick off events that lead to a natural outcome - well that's on them.

A hook is just that - something that get the PC's moving in a particular direction. What happens is up to them. This is not to say other factors aren't involved that are beyond the PC's knowledge. If you're setting up the events like dominos to be knocked down without much in the way of dynamic decision making on your NPC's part... yeah you're probably railroading or mailing it in.

Quote from: Bren;830589Are you saying that the difference between table top sandboxes and videogames is that the hooks in videogames lead to linear adventures that are mini railroads?

No I mean that an "amusement park" is has a number of hooks that individually lead to mini railroads, as opposed to a "pure" sandbox where hooks don't lead to railroads.

Why do they call it a sandbox? A sandbox is an enclosed space with a limited scope of activity. Who started using that as a term for freeform adventure gaming?

The essence of a 'sandbox', in the sense people generally mean it, is players having real power to decide what comes next. Not the fake agency that happens when you present players with an either/or choice (most of which end up circling back to the same point end...), or by giving them a menu of several plots they are allowed to act out. Real agency means they are actively part of defining the plot at the highest level; maybe even mostly in charge. Basically, if you sit down knowing what plot points are out there and what lines connect them, you are the conductor of a rail road.

Hogwash

Quote from: Matt;830611Why do they call it a sandbox? A sandbox is an enclosed space with a limited scope of activity. Who started using that as a term for freeform adventure gaming?

I would guess it originally comes from 'sandtable' in wargaming and has mutated through wargames, tabletop rpgs, computer rpgs and back into tabletop as a description of an approach. 'Griffin Mountain' for RuneQuest is called one of the best sandbox campaigns, but the term used back then was "wilderness campaign", it's only in retrospect it got labelled a sandbox.

Quote from: Matt;830611Why do they call it a sandbox? A sandbox is an enclosed space with a limited scope of activity. Who started using that as a term for freeform adventure gaming?

Because as a little kid that was your entire world.  Just like a game world.  It's enclosed by the system chosen to play, whether it's Exalted, D&D, HERO, Gurps, RuneQuest, Basic Roleplaying, whatever.  That's the box.  The sand are the rules, what they allow you to make.

But within that box, you can drive your little Tonka trucks and shovels and pails to make castles, roads, mountains and whatever else your little mind dreams up.

Let me reiterate:  The Game System is the Sandbox, NOT the world, or where the players can go in it.

Quote from: Matt;830611Why do they call it a sandbox? A sandbox is an enclosed space with a limited scope of activity. Who started using that as a term for freeform adventure gaming?

The 1e AD&D Dungeoneer's Survival Guide called the Wilderlands style 'Open' campaigns, and contrasted Open with Linear and Matrix (open, but deliberately interconnected) campaigns. Maybe Open is a better term than Sandbox. Also notable that I haven't seen much discussion of Matrix campaign design since the '80s, even though it seems like a potential best of both worlds approach. It's particularly suited to conspiracy & investigation genres like Call of Cthulu, but also suits political campaigns (Game of Thrones stuff), and can be used effectively in dungeon fantasy - Necromancer's Vault of Karin Larr mini-campaign took a reasonably effective matrix approach.

Could you explain what Matrix campaign is? Never heard of it.

Quote from: Matt;830611Why do they call it a sandbox? A sandbox is an enclosed space with a limited scope of activity. Who started using that as a term for freeform adventure gaming?

Just my best guess but most of the time when I see "Freeform role playing" used it refers to systemless role playing.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;830657Could you explain what Matrix campaign is? Never heard of it.

I think you can get an idea from these links:

http://www.gamegrene.com/node/615 (Search on "matrix".) EDIT: on rereading, either the writer or their source has some terminological drift going on.

http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/nonlinear-sandbox-games/ (Comments by BryanB)

The open style as described seems to be a fairly static sandbox seeded with locales and lairs.

The matrix style overlays a major plot, not as a scripted set of encounters or scenes, but a single overriding issue that the PCs will deal with. I guess it may include a timeline of what will happen without their intervention.

FURTHER EDITS:

The Vreegian "world in motion" is step or two beyond the basic "matrix" in terms of complexity, to the extent that it doesn't channel play along a single plot. Clash's "situational play" seems to be more exclusively focused on factions. Clash has claimed not to run sandbox, but I don't know if everyone would see it that way. Depends on whether sandbox is seen purely as a type of setting description (as Rob has clarified on several occasions), or exclusively as a static map seeded with encounters and hooks, or as something that requires a map but could be more, etc.

Quote from: Larsdangly;830633The essence of a 'sandbox', in the sense people generally mean it, is players having real power to decide what comes next. Not the fake agency that happens when you present players with an either/or choice (most of which end up circling back to the same point end...), or by giving them a menu of several plots they are allowed to act out. Real agency means they are actively part of defining the plot at the highest level; maybe even mostly in charge. Basically, if you sit down knowing what plot points are out there and what lines connect them, you are the conductor of a rail road.

The underlying foundation is Player Agency.
Within the bounds of the setting, you can build and create..as a player... as you will.  I would not say defining the plot, but in the same way as 'perception is reality', they players are free to act and perceive things as they will.  

Often, A GM makes the mistake of ruining player agency by ruining character perception.  Telling the PC's an idea is wrong or when they are on the wrong track is just as bad as how you build a plot.  Not to mention encouraging OOC perspective.

Quote from: Arminius;830686The matrix style overlays a major plot, not as a scripted set of encounters or scenes, but a single overriding issue that the PCs will deal with. I guess it may include a timeline of what will happen without their intervention.

Yes - think of Call of Cthulu 'Onion' style. The Great Old Ones are at the centre, around them a periphery of lesser entities, servitor races. An outer layer of human sorcerors and mostly mundane cult activity.

In matrix play the PCs investigate cult nodes (of their choice) on the outer layer, working inward but also free to move from node to node, towards the centre of the vast conspiracy.

Matrix play is about interconnectness & choice within a nodal framework, often with an 'all roads lead to Cthulu' type centre & finale.