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Author Topic: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e  (Read 5348 times)

dkabq

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Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« on: January 16, 2022, 08:06:48 AM »
This was pushed to me as an ad while I was watching Pundit's "OSR Magical Practices" video -- oh sweet irony.

Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
Comprehensive game mechanics for including Characters with Disabilities, Mental Illness, and Neurodivergence in Fifth Edition

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wyrmworkspublishing/limitless-heroics-better-worlds-via-dice-and-disabilities-5e?ref=6u86me&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoY-PBhCNARIsABcz772adWRcgZ6ebpKNaB36OVoz3JdwNLHx7MPPKXeQW5PT2vwMQEwUtRIaAopqEALw_wcB

It's an interesting juxtaposition of this and the 5e chargin methods that create above-average PCs.

And not that I am against a player playing a PC with a disability or diminished capacity in some regard. That said, if a player so chooses, the difficulties of those disabilities will be imposed on their PC. While it would be possible to offset them by magical means, it would be at great cost. Not something that a 1st level PC is going to have access to.

As always, no wrongbadfun, but not my cuppa.




« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 08:11:00 AM by dkabq »

VisionStorm

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2022, 08:37:18 AM »
I was OK with the features, and could sorta see this working as a valid RPG product (characters DO develop disabilities as a result of play sometimes, and they can serve as quirky character traits as well), till I got to the presumed "Real World Benefits" nonsense.

There's NO evidence that any of this stuff serves disabled people in any meaningful way, that they've been dying to play disabled characters all these years, but just couldn't, or that including this shit (which is NOT new; character disabilities have been around in RPGs for DECADES) will somehow bring greater acceptance and awareness of disabled people, or validate their existence somehow, because someone made an RPG product about extensive lists of character disabilities. And this will "teach" those game companies or some shit. Also: by backing this product you'll will make a difference in the world! Like you're donating to some disabled children's charity or something.

This shit is just asserted into existence, and if you see through the bullshit then you're obviously the bad guy, cuz how dare you hate on disabled people, you ableist bastard?!?

Ghostmaker

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2022, 08:46:55 AM »
Once again, for those who haven't heard this before:

No one is lining up to play a PC with a crippling disability, barring systems where they take it as a disadvantage to balance out being able to launch fireballs from their eyes.

This. Is. A. Fetish.

If you want to help people that badly, donate to a charity.

Omega

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2022, 10:43:47 AM »
Very.

The only reason I and a few others play out characters as likewise disabled is because either we have no frame of refference for "normal" and its just a tad uncomfortable. Or its what we are used to and why not play what you know? Maybe even both.

I actually surprised some professional game designers way back with having rules for various handicaps in my book. Why are they there? For players that want a challenge, and I did warn em that the more severe, the more its going to cause problems sooner or later, usually sooner. For players that are like me and dont quite feel comfortable playing some sense or ability we've never experienced. And for the rare few that just have a wild character idea that this fits.

But every iteration of this SJW disease has had those who either all but fetishize being disabled. Or romanticize it. Or think we should be put in our place and never seek cures or in the more loony fringe cases - not even seek workarounds. Or all to often are just trying to cash in at our expense.

The ones that romanticize being disabled I have alot less problem with really as often its just people trying to see the silver lining of the bad hand that has been dealt someone. Honestly nothing wrong with that and its something I've pep-talked others about before. Just dont go overboard ok?

As for the disabilities 5e thing... The timing and wording and presentation make me very suspicious right out the gate. On the other hand their example page says "Dont Force It" which is a good sign. I think their logic is a little off on finding cures, and uses congenital disabilities as a "proof".

Overall it could be an honest try at doing a gurps-esque laundry list of things characters might suffer from.

But personally I want to see how they address, or don't, the more pressing problem of what to do with characters that gain disabilities through accident. This is a nigh totally different problem on several levels.

Addendum: Another reason stuff like this can be useful is for NPCs. Especially if theres some pointers for DMs on how to play these things. Which is actually something my book lacked as it just never occurred to me that people would not know these things.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 10:46:11 AM by Omega »

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2022, 05:16:39 PM »
Omega puts it very well. Now here's my contribution.

Speaking as someone who has multiple disabilities, one of which would be fatal if not for modern medicine, disabilities are... complicated. Many disabilities, like that fatal one I have, are invisible and you wouldn't know I had it unless you read my medical history.

Ableism is a very complicated issue. The SJWs, as they are wont, do nothing to actually fix it and just make things worse while profiting off human suffering. What makes things difficult is that there are numerous disabilities, and disabled and able-bodied people have different frames of reference that makes it difficult to understand each other.

If there was a cure for my disabilities, then I would take it in a heartbeat. Not just so that I can survive without medical assistance, but just to fit in with the majority and not feel like a freak. (And the entire time I would secretly resent them for not liking the real me.) Other people with disabilities feel completely different.

And other times there is the Ashley Treatment. Parents sterilized their effectively braindead child, meaning that when (not if) she is sexually abused by a future caregiver, nobody will be the wiser. The only reason I would ever advocate curing disabled people against their will would be to protect them from that kind of abuse, or at least let them get bloody revenge on their abusers.

Don't even get me started on disabled superheroes. Most of the time they're effectively cured of their disability (e.g. a girl in a wheelchair bonding to a symbiote that can walk for her, professor X riding a hovercraft) or have other senses trivially compensate (e.g. blind superheroes with perfect echolocation, deaf superheroes with vibration sense that can perfectly understand speech without looking at someone or listen to music, etc).

Representation typically isn't done for the sake of disabled people (the exception being when disabled actors et al are employed for the production, so they're financially benefitting) but for white knights to virtue signal how progressive they are. The irony is that often disabled people can't even appreciate the full scope of the production anyway because it is ultimately made by and for those who aren't disabled. Media made by and for the disabled is... well, Hollywood obviously isn't investing in it with things like silent movies for the deaf, audio dramas for the blind, or acting intended to be enjoyed by the socially blind, so we know Hollywood doesn't really give a flying fuck.

And this is just going to get worse once we do develop practical "cures" for people lacking particular senses, because this will interact in weird ways with giving new senses to able-bodied people. Humans can't normally see ultraviolet light, but a bionic implant might give you the ability to. Wouldn't a person with ultraviolet vision be considered more able-bodied than other people? What about effective telepathy via internal radio transceiver? Able-bodied people would be effectively deaf compared to radio-talkers. Artists with these new senses will naturally produce art that only people with those senses can fully appreciate. Ultrasonic symphonies, ultraviolet paintings, whatever only people whose primarily sensory modalities are sonar and electroreception would appreciate. Companies will discriminate against disabled applicants who refuse to get implants unless they're legally forced not to. You won't even be allowed to retire anymore if you can afford life extension treatments and there aren't enough young workers to replace you due to our projected falling population.

The SJW-made cyberpunk games completely miss this. They demonize bioconservatives (i.e. people who are severely socially/medically disabled in such a setting) while treating disability as a fashion accessory.

If we can't sort this shit out now, then we're screwed once our current cyberpunk dystopia actually develops the "cyber" part to match our fiction.

So whoever wrote that book can kindly go to hell.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2022, 08:12:40 PM »
It's not that characters with disabilities are badwrongfun per se. It's that the "progressives" pushing this shit fetishize disability to an unhealthy degree.

The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Wiseblood

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2022, 09:05:46 PM »
Misread the title as Limited Heroics. Subtitle confirmed bias.

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2022, 03:05:09 PM »
I think last nights Inappropriate Characters gave a boost to the kickstarter. It's like the sjdubs that were watching went "I'm gonna throw my hard earned money (or mommy and daddy's hard earned money) at something that will never see table play just to spite Pundit and Co."
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Dark Train

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2022, 03:46:03 PM »
As someone who tends to enforce 3d6 in order, I have seen a lot of PCs with disabilities and/or diminished capacity over the years.

While perhaps well-meaning*, the kickstarter proposes the product as potentially world-changing, which indicates a certain naiveté.

On a wider note, as others have said, there is a trend to fetishize disability-and any abnormality, really-which is slightly disturbing. 

*It could also be a completely cynical move to get money from slacktivists.

THE_Leopold

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2022, 04:32:17 PM »
If it helps you make villains for your game like Sand Dan Glokta from Joe Abercrombie's First Law series I'm all for it.



NKL4Lyfe

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2022, 06:34:38 PM »
Don't even get me started on disabled superheroes. Most of the time they're effectively cured of their disability (e.g. a girl in a wheelchair bonding to a symbiote that can walk for her, professor X riding a hovercraft) or have other senses trivially compensate (e.g. blind superheroes with perfect echolocation, deaf superheroes with vibration sense that can perfectly understand speech without looking at someone or listen to music, etc).


Thing is. More than a few superheroes with disabilities got their powers or widgets trying to find cures or workarounds. Or were selected to have the whatever because they were disabled. This very mirrors real world developments. People have been coming up with some ingenious solutions, or even just simple workarounds for a long long time.

One example that always impressed me from real life was Jay J. Armes. Who lost both hands in an accident and went on to become a private investigator with various trick prosthetic hands. And as a teen after the accident apparently crafted simple prosthetics to participate in school sports.



Others like say Daredevil are just amplifications of existing things and originally he was not as over the top as many current iterations show him. And his powers can be turned against him. As for Professor X. For the majority of his career he has been in a relatively normal wheelchair and spent 99% of his time back at base because a wheelchair in the X-Men's line of work is a liability. Or worse. Take note that in the new x-men movies they had him not handicapped for a fair portion. Whereas in the original movies he is sidelined pretty much every movie because hes that vulnerable.

Sometimes a power or disability spark a character idea.

But now alot of these characters have zero nuance or drawback more oft than not. Daredevil being a good example if this. Theres several others. Sometimes its just that the powers really do provide a sort of cure. Nothing more to it than that. As noted in another thread on this. One of the playtesters for my RPG way back created a character who had lost both arms and legs and could only move via telekinesis. The character could move around and also handle objects with their powers. But if they for whatever reason blew off all their energy they were totally helpless.

But more often now a disabled character is disabled just to have a disabled character. A check box on the SJW list.

Omega

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2022, 06:38:10 PM »
It's not that characters with disabilities are badwrongfun per se. It's that the "progressives" pushing this shit fetishize disability to an unhealthy degree.

Some here treat any sort of RPing the disabled as verboten unfortunately. And a few village idiots here push that disabled players should not be allowed to play disabled characters.

Omega

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2022, 06:39:48 PM »
I think last nights Inappropriate Characters gave a boost to the kickstarter. It's like the sjdubs that were watching went "I'm gonna throw my hard earned money (or mommy and daddy's hard earned money) at something that will never see table play just to spite Pundit and Co."

I have said this so many times. Pundit is these woke RPGs best advertiser.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2022, 12:04:43 PM »
Cyborgs are apparently considered disability representation now, but if I understand correctly only if they got their bionics as a result of congenital conditions or violent accidents.

Omega

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Re: Limitless Heroics: Better worlds via Dice & Disabilities 5e
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2022, 06:36:52 PM »
Cyborgs are apparently considered disability representation now, but if I understand correctly only if they got their bionics as a result of congenital conditions or violent accidents.

Remember. Its bad only till these cultists want to make buck off it.

Remember kids. Giving Steve Austin new limbs and an eye was being ABELIST! He should have been HAPPY to live the rest of his life in a bed!