I've seen theme in Burning Wheel and a Shadowrun 5E option book and am aware of them as a core feature of Traveller but what other games include this and where did it initially come from? I'm trying to explore this subsystem and it's variants and history but I don't know where to start beyond what I already know and I don't know that Traveller originated the idea. If anyone can help point me to other games, new and old, that include different takes on it If appreciate it as I try to delve into the topic.

Yeah, I'm no expert, but I would think it started with Traveller.

I would think it would have to be Traveller.  It's in the LBBs, which I have heard predate OD&D by a bit.  That's about as early as you can get for an actual RPG.

Edit - I just checked and "the internet" says OD&D was '74 and Traveller was '77.  That's pretty darn early.  (Irrelevant side note - I can'd believe Andre Norton isn't listed as an influence for Traveller.  The game seems absolutely made to play in her SF)

Classic Traveller had a proto-Lifepath system in that when character creation happened, your character went through prior careers where they learned their skills and got their starting money and benefits. You could infer a past from that, but it wasn't very exact. Mongoose Traveller made it an integral part of the character creation process and includes a much higher level of detail.

R. Talsorian Games really championed this idea starting with their Mekton game line and their Cyberpunk game line. Most of the details of which can be found in the RTG blog link below.
https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/10/16/cyberpunk-red-alert-lifepath/

A one-click generic Lifepath Generator can be found at these sites online.
https://www.pbegames.com/lifepath/
https://rpg.web-mage.ca/pages/lifepath.php
https://tangent-zero.com/mz_lifepath.htm

Mutant Chronicles also had a type of life path system (at least the first one did; haven't kept up with later editions of the game), though, I barely remember it, cuz I only read it decades ago and don't have the book with me.

EDIT: 1st edition PDF

Mutant Chronicles has a life path system.  Even the silly 2d20 version where the Brotherhood are good guys.

Anyhow, the first place I saw the term was Mekton.  Which is a points system with a fun series of tables that supply some narrative detail, rather than walking you through a life.

Rune Quest third edition determines the number of skill points a character has from their age and profession.  It's not quite a life path but it's close.

Rolemaster Standard System's training packages are stackable and increase the character's age as well as providing random possessions.  It's not quite a life path system but it's damn close.

Galaxies In Shadow has a full on life path system with careers and event rolls.

The Arcane Confabulation is a life path system / points tied to age system that is pretending to be a class and level system.

Beyond the Wall has lifepath/character history tables that both generate your character's attributes/skills but, in addition to creating your own history, establishes bonds with the other characters.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 09:31:18 AM
Classic Traveller had a proto-Lifepath system in that when character creation happened, your character went through prior careers where they learned their skills and got their starting money and benefits. You could infer a past from that, but it wasn't very exact. Mongoose Traveller made it an integral part of the character creation process and includes a much higher level of detail.

R. Talsorian Games really championed this idea starting with their Mekton game line and their Cyberpunk game line. Most of the details of which can be found in the RTG blog link below.
https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/10/16/cyberpunk-red-alert-lifepath/

A one-click generic Lifepath Generator can be found at these sites online.
https://www.pbegames.com/lifepath/
https://rpg.web-mage.ca/pages/lifepath.php
https://tangent-zero.com/mz_lifepath.htm

Read through the R.Talsorian link.  Skimmed through this part:

QuoteTheir Character's fathers, Victoria decides, worked in the motorpool for an Ethiopian company that specialized in exporting luxury goods to the Highriders in orbit

Huh?  Then got to this part:

QuoteOne of their Character's dads, they decide, was sick and required high-end, experimental therapy.

Oh, FFS!  Genuflect to the woke even in your sample lifepath?  Nope.  Screw that game...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 19, 2020, 02:23:35 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 09:31:18 AM
Classic Traveller had a proto-Lifepath system in that when character creation happened, your character went through prior careers where they learned their skills and got their starting money and benefits. You could infer a past from that, but it wasn't very exact. Mongoose Traveller made it an integral part of the character creation process and includes a much higher level of detail.

R. Talsorian Games really championed this idea starting with their Mekton game line and their Cyberpunk game line. Most of the details of which can be found in the RTG blog link below.
https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/10/16/cyberpunk-red-alert-lifepath/

A one-click generic Lifepath Generator can be found at these sites online.
https://www.pbegames.com/lifepath/
https://rpg.web-mage.ca/pages/lifepath.php
https://tangent-zero.com/mz_lifepath.htm

Read through the R.Talsorian link.  Skimmed through this part:

QuoteTheir Character's fathers, Victoria decides, worked in the motorpool for an Ethiopian company that specialized in exporting luxury goods to the Highriders in orbit

Huh?  Then got to this part:

QuoteOne of their Character's dads, they decide, was sick and required high-end, experimental therapy.

Oh, FFS!  Genuflect to the woke even in your sample lifepath?  Nope.  Screw that game...

Before you get all bent out of shape, Mike Pondsmith can hardly be considered a Social Justice Warrior and in the dystopian setting history of Cyberpunk, the ESA is the dominant space program group with launch facilities in Africa and thus used a lot of native Africans as employees.

I bet that if you looked at the lifepath for Mekton, which is only structurally similar to the one for Cyberpunk, you wouldn't have these objections.

I'm attaching a PDF of Atomik Lifepath which is derived from RTG's Lifepath system and should be able to give a better example that won't cause people's panties to get bunched up.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 03:05:03 PM
Before you get all bent out of shape, Mike Pondsmith can hardly be considered a Social Justice Warrior

Yeah, well, I saw his Black Criminals Lives Matter statements.  He may not be a full Kool-Aid drinker, but he's at least woke adjacent.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 03:05:03 PMand in the dystopian setting history of Cyberpunk, the ESA is the dominant space program group with launch facilities in Africa and thus used a lot of native Africans as employees.

Which makes the whole thing even more stupid.  Native Africans tend to be the least tolerant of "alternative" lifestyles!  Even the more "Westernized" cultures transplanted there are incredibly "regressive" (there are more conservative Christian denominations in Africa than in the US, and it's African bishops that are pushing back against the pope's leftward drift).  So, it's even more wedged in than usual...

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 03:05:03 PM
I bet that if you looked at the lifepath for Mekton, which is only structurally similar to the one for Cyberpunk, you wouldn't have these objections.

I'm attaching a PDF of Atomik Lifepath which is derived from RTG's Lifepath system and should be able to give a better example that won't cause people's panties to get bunched up.

I've got no quarrel with the lifepath mechanics, per se.  I'd rather have them focused on the events and skills learned than on stuff like goals and personality (I'd rather do that myself), but they can definitely be a spark for creativity.  When you have to take me to some other game's iteration of it to show me how good it can be without stupid woke stuff in it, that's hardly an endorsement of the game.  Why would any game company decide to forgo potential customers by putting stuff like that in their promotional materials?

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 19, 2020, 04:46:52 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 03:05:03 PMand in the dystopian setting history of Cyberpunk, the ESA is the dominant space program group with launch facilities in Africa and thus used a lot of native Africans as employees.

Which makes the whole thing even more stupid.  Native Africans tend to be the least tolerant of "alternative" lifestyles!  Even the more "Westernized" cultures transplanted there are incredibly "regressive" (there are more conservative Christian denominations in Africa than in the US, and it's African bishops that are pushing back against the pope's leftward drift).  So, it's even more wedged in than usual...

Cyberpunk RPG 1st edition came out in 1988 and the setting background didn't seem that unrealistic. When Cyberpunk 2020 came out in 1990, the setting background still didn't seem that unrealistic.

Woke wasn't even a concept back then.
(And nobody ever thought of the Pope becoming a Leftist back then either.)

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 19, 2020, 04:46:52 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 03:05:03 PM
I bet that if you looked at the lifepath for Mekton, which is only structurally similar to the one for Cyberpunk, you wouldn't have these objections.

I'm attaching a PDF of Atomik Lifepath which is derived from RTG's Lifepath system and should be able to give a better example that won't cause people's panties to get bunched up.

I've got no quarrel with the lifepath mechanics, per se.  I'd rather have them focused on the events and skills learned than on stuff like goals and personality (I'd rather do that myself), but they can definitely be a spark for creativity.  When you have to take me to some other game's iteration of it to show me how good it can be without stupid woke stuff in it, that's hardly an endorsement of the game.  Why would any game company decide to forgo potential customers by putting stuff like that in their promotional materials?

Are you determined to keep your panties in a bunch? I'm not endorsing the game, or wokeness, or Mike Pondsmith (although I admit to liking Mike Pondsmith's game related work). I'm not an advertising agency and I am already tired of giving a fuck about your opinion of Cyberpunk.

I've shown you and any of the curious reading this what a Lifepath is and attached samples.
Go be pissed off about them, why don't you?

Honestly, I'm more upset at hearing that Pondsmith and co. removed all the little background details that made the setting come alive from the equipment list than I am at knowing he's Woke.  If I tried to cut all the entertainers I disagreed with on some political topic or other I'd be stuck staring at cave paintings and wondering if the stick figure spearing the bison was queer or not.  Besides, in general people who make money by entertaining other people (that includes game designers) are universally stupid... just as Sir Anthony Hopkins, he'll happily tell you.

Honestly though: The removal of the brand names and trivial but not inconsequential differences between various guns etc in Cyberpunk Red (as reported... I realized that nothing I'd seen or heard meant I needed to replace my nearly identical 2020 library...), proves to me that Mad Mike was never a brilliant game designer... he's just a guy who stuck lightning in a bottle that one time and has been living on the grift ever since.



But then: I've made equipment (including weapons) as the hallmarks of culture my hobby hobbyhorse for over a decade now, so this shouldn't be a shock to anyone.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 05:57:18 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 19, 2020, 04:46:52 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 03:05:03 PMand in the dystopian setting history of Cyberpunk, the ESA is the dominant space program group with launch facilities in Africa and thus used a lot of native Africans as employees.

Which makes the whole thing even more stupid.  Native Africans tend to be the least tolerant of "alternative" lifestyles!  Even the more "Westernized" cultures transplanted there are incredibly "regressive" (there are more conservative Christian denominations in Africa than in the US, and it's African bishops that are pushing back against the pope's leftward drift).  So, it's even more wedged in than usual...

Cyberpunk RPG 1st edition came out in 1988 and the setting background didn't seem that unrealistic. When Cyberpunk 2020 came out in 1990, the setting background still didn't seem that unrealistic.

Woke wasn't even a concept back then.
(And nobody ever thought of the Pope becoming a Leftist back then either.)

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 19, 2020, 04:46:52 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 03:05:03 PM
I bet that if you looked at the lifepath for Mekton, which is only structurally similar to the one for Cyberpunk, you wouldn't have these objections.

I'm attaching a PDF of Atomik Lifepath which is derived from RTG's Lifepath system and should be able to give a better example that won't cause people's panties to get bunched up.

I've got no quarrel with the lifepath mechanics, per se.  I'd rather have them focused on the events and skills learned than on stuff like goals and personality (I'd rather do that myself), but they can definitely be a spark for creativity.  When you have to take me to some other game's iteration of it to show me how good it can be without stupid woke stuff in it, that's hardly an endorsement of the game.  Why would any game company decide to forgo potential customers by putting stuff like that in their promotional materials?

Are you determined to keep your panties in a bunch? I'm not endorsing the game, or wokeness, or Mike Pondsmith (although I admit to liking Mike Pondsmith's game related work). I'm not an advertising agency and I am already tired of giving a fuck about your opinion of Cyberpunk.

I've shown you and any of the curious reading this what a Lifepath is and attached samples.
Go be pissed off about them, why don't you?

Maybe you should take a Midol and practice some deep breathing.  You've got anger issues.

When it comes to lifepaths, as I pointed out before, lifepaths with skills and events (think Traveller) tend to be more useful and less restrictive than "Your character likes cats and has daddy issues."  Who needs that?

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 19, 2020, 06:56:33 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 05:57:18 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 19, 2020, 04:46:52 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 03:05:03 PMand in the dystopian setting history of Cyberpunk, the ESA is the dominant space program group with launch facilities in Africa and thus used a lot of native Africans as employees.

Which makes the whole thing even more stupid.  Native Africans tend to be the least tolerant of "alternative" lifestyles!  Even the more "Westernized" cultures transplanted there are incredibly "regressive" (there are more conservative Christian denominations in Africa than in the US, and it's African bishops that are pushing back against the pope's leftward drift).  So, it's even more wedged in than usual...

Cyberpunk RPG 1st edition came out in 1988 and the setting background didn't seem that unrealistic. When Cyberpunk 2020 came out in 1990, the setting background still didn't seem that unrealistic.

Woke wasn't even a concept back then.
(And nobody ever thought of the Pope becoming a Leftist back then either.)

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 19, 2020, 04:46:52 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 03:05:03 PM
I bet that if you looked at the lifepath for Mekton, which is only structurally similar to the one for Cyberpunk, you wouldn't have these objections.

I'm attaching a PDF of Atomik Lifepath which is derived from RTG's Lifepath system and should be able to give a better example that won't cause people's panties to get bunched up.

I've got no quarrel with the lifepath mechanics, per se.  I'd rather have them focused on the events and skills learned than on stuff like goals and personality (I'd rather do that myself), but they can definitely be a spark for creativity.  When you have to take me to some other game's iteration of it to show me how good it can be without stupid woke stuff in it, that's hardly an endorsement of the game.  Why would any game company decide to forgo potential customers by putting stuff like that in their promotional materials?

Are you determined to keep your panties in a bunch? I'm not endorsing the game, or wokeness, or Mike Pondsmith (although I admit to liking Mike Pondsmith's game related work). I'm not an advertising agency and I am already tired of giving a fuck about your opinion of Cyberpunk.

I've shown you and any of the curious reading this what a Lifepath is and attached samples.
Go be pissed off about them, why don't you?

Maybe you should take a Midol and practice some deep breathing.  You've got anger issues.

Not anger issues, just really tired of people who are more interested in looking at personal politics than Actual Play.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 19, 2020, 06:56:33 PM
When it comes to lifepaths, as I pointed out before, lifepaths with skills and events (think Traveller) tend to be more useful and less restrictive than "Your character likes cats and has daddy issues."  Who needs that?

In Your Humble Opinion

Traveller lifepaths are different from RTG lifepaths. The only real similarity they have is that they are both tools used to backfill a character's past and help the Player create the character he wants. Different approaches will appeal to different people or even to the same people depending on what result they wanted to achieve.

Would it surprise you that after rolling up a Noble family using MgT 1e that I was able to further flesh out the family by rolling on the RTG lifepath for Mekton Zeta for each of them? It was awesome! Like something straight out of Dune.

You'd understand this if you weren't so invested with being butthurt over it.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2020, 07:15:32 PM
Not anger issues, just really tired of people who are more interested in looking at personal politics than Actual Play.

On this one point, jeffy and I agree on something. When talking about a game, do that.