Quote from: droogYou might say that. No, I guess it's just that I want to play in a world that isn't about somebody else's writing.

Your statements are fair enough.  I guess I react differently to published worlds -- I see them as you do, yes, but I also see them as potential playgrounds.  I don't want to control them, as Harrison says, but to play in them.  To go wild and rampant inside that dream-world.  To find my own green-stoned city, blow up Star Destroyers, stuff like that.

But I getcha.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI think Decipher's LotR RPG handles the setting much, much better than MERP. I never cottoned to MERP. Some of the sourcebooks were very cool, but the game mechanics leave me cold.

The only thing that I'd say that Decipher LotR did better was the magic system. Better in the sense of "more tolkien-esque". Other than that, both don't try to capture the style of the original fiction, both are generic fantasy systems.

One would probably have to be quite familiar with Tolkien's particular style to get a good approximation through rules and organization...

Quote from: SosthenesThe only thing that I'd say that Decipher LotR did better was the magic system. Better in the sense of "more tolkien-esque". Other than that, both don't try to capture the style of the original fiction, both are generic fantasy systems.

One would probably have to be quite familiar with Tolkien's particular style to get a good approximation through rules and organization...

I thought Decipher's game really tried to incorporate the tropes and themes of LotR much better than MERP did, by a long shot. MERP's RM-style combat system, especially, with all its gruesome results, just stuck out like a sore thumb.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI thought Decipher's game really tried to incorporate the tropes and themes of LotR much better than MERP did, by a long shot.

In what way? It's basically a copycat D20 system, not much is done to particularly cater to Tolkienesque fantasy, at least rules-wise. The presentation does quite a good job, with lots of quotes. It doesn't hurt that they've got lots of pictures from the movie to help get in the mood...

Quote from: ColonelHardissonMERP's RM-style combat system, especially, with all its gruesome results, just stuck out like a sore thumb.

Really? They could've changed their crit tables to include more quotes and saga-like injuries, but LotR could get quite gruesome.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I guess I react differently to published worlds -- I see them as you do, yes, but I also see them as potential playgrounds.  I don't want to control them, as Harrison says, but to play in them.  To go wild and rampant inside that dream-world.  To find my own green-stoned city, blow up Star Destroyers, stuff like that.

Yeah - with me its not so much the creating a virtual world thing (although I know the attraction of that to) but just riffing on ideas I like - which is the way stories have always been - you have a set of stock characters and stories, but its the way you tell it that is important.

Everyone has seen IMPS right:-

http://impstherelentless.com/tek9.asp?pg=chapter1

Plus I do love that exploration thing and seeing interesting sights.

For instance, here we hear Sandy Petersen, creator of Call of Cthulhu, running a cthulu dungeon at a con -

http://www.yog-sothoth.com/docs/av-sandy-petersens-coc-game-06.mp3

Its illusionist, nothing really happens, theres no game element, but its got that roleplaying atmosphere, yknow?

I love that atmosphere.

The only IP worth converting for use in a TRPG are those that are dead.  A live series is one that is going to change over time, invalidating what RPG material hits the shelves, and causing problems because of it.  A savvy publisher can mitigate this somewhat by focusing on parts that are, for all intents and purposes, dead- being two or so seasons/series behind in a TV-based game and taking "as of this moment" snapshots, for example; this requires some collaboration with the IP producer, which is not guaranteed, to really make it work.

But dead IP is cheaper to buy licenses for (usually), easier to produce stuff for, and--if managed well--can lead to the IP's revival down the road.  (All of this, with the caveat that the publisher isn't doing anything that couldn't be done just as well as by making what in computer gaming terms is a "full conversion modification" module for an existing game; e.g. making a Firefly mod for Traveller, or a Final Fantasy mod for D&D.)

Wow... all this sound and fury without anyone touching upon an interesting point in more than passing.

Generally, Liscenced Games are not 'all new games' they are adaptions of existing rules and settings to the licensed product.  Nothing about Rolemaster is particultarly 'middle earthish', and the D6 rules by themselves do not scream 'Star Wars' except to diehard fans of the D6 Starwars game.

What sells liscenced games then is 'setting information'. Not everyone wants to see 9 hours of movie, or read 5000 pages of fiction to 'get into' a setting.  Firefly could be done in Gurps, Traveller, Soveriegn Stone, probably even L5R if you wanted to get into heavy conversion work... and be just fine.  So, we aren't buying/making/selling a game, we are selling 'setting guides'. We are buying Canon that has the advantage of being written out.

Nothing more, nothing less. Mating it to rules is a convienence, a labor saver.  Were I a fan I could rattle off half a dozen games I own that could handle 'Harry Potter', just fine.  Hell, I'm not a fan and I'm sure I could still do that, depending on how much GM's whimsy vs. Player controlled you want in magic.

From a GAMING aspect, liscenced products do little to nothing, sure. From a FAN aspect they are immeasurably useful in allowing us fan/gamers to play our version with less work 'converting' and more canon, allowing us to find new players easier, or new groups, because everyone will be using the same rules.

If they aren't for you, so be it.   I'm tempted to address Droog's essay, but I'm short on time, and I don't want to create an argument over literary tastes.  Needless to say, he didn't exactly sell me on 'Viriconium' as a book/series for me.

Quote from: SpikeGenerally, Liscenced Games are not 'all new games' they are adaptions of existing rules and settings to the licensed product.

Yes.  Ideally, the rules are adapted to fit.  I think the failure of many licensed setting rules is that they are just slapped on without much change so the rules don't give the right feel.

Licensed rpgs can be valuable for the actual rules but they're usually not.  Rather than dithering "how would I model X" you can read how to model X and be on your way.  But most of the time, this part of the product is poorly done so you're back on your own.

QuoteNeedless to say, he didn't exactly sell me on 'Viriconium' as a book/series for me.

Fair enough. I'd like to see that discussion.

I agree with the points about the value of game systems in most licensed games I've seen.

Quote from: NicephorusYes.  Ideally, the rules are adapted to fit.  I think the failure of many licensed setting rules is that they are just slapped on without much change so the rules don't give the right feel.

Licensed rpgs can be valuable for the actual rules but they're usually not.  Rather than dithering "how would I model X" you can read how to model X and be on your way.  But most of the time, this part of the product is poorly done so you're back on your own.

Hm.  There are many enduring RPG rules which have come out of adaptations to licensed properties.  I think the process of adaptation is challenging, and if done correctly can result in major improvements.  

At least, a number of my favorite games came from adaptations: Call of Cthulhu (adapting RuneQuest and became the more definitive version of the rules), James Bond 007 (actually an original game system for the license), Star Wars (adapting the Ghostbusters system), and the Buffy RPG (adapting the Unisystem to it's much-changed cinematic form).

Quote from: NicephorusYes.  Ideally, the rules are adapted to fit.  I think the failure of many licensed setting rules is that they are just slapped on without much change so the rules don't give the right feel.

Quite true I think. If the writer doesn't take the time to find the game in the license, and then build the rules for that game then I don't think it's going to work out very well.

There are examples out there just like there are good, and even exceptional movies done from books. But they tend to be in the minority.  That brings up another possibility though, that the good licensed game to bad licensed game ratio isn't that far off from the good game to bad game ratio. It's just that the license allows a POS game to even get looked at, where as a bad game without a license just quietly crawls right past the bargin bin and right back into the pulping bin.

I think, overall, I've only found two licensed games that I actually found to be quite well done:  Star Wars D6, and Decipher Star Trek.  

Both brilliantly written, and captured the feel of their respective series brilliantly.

I have, on multiple occasions on RPGnet, gone on record as stating that the DecTrek books in particular are quite simply the greatest roleplaying books ever written.  THe system is a gorgeous match for Star Trek, the flavor material just perfect for giving enough to get going, and the overall text is absolutely chock full of adventure seeds.  

I seriously don't know how they did it, but it's like every tenth sentence has some little aside or mention that just feeds your imagination with all sorts of plot and adventure and world ideas.

Quote from: SosthenesIn what way? It's basically a copycat D20 system, not much is done to particularly cater to Tolkienesque fantasy, at least rules-wise.

First, so what if it's a copycat d20 system? MERP was a RM offshoot. The designers went out of their way to not just find really nice quotes from the novel to support their design decisions, but also made sure that what they designed really worked like their inspirations in the source material.

The designers go to great lengths to provide ways to create character archetypes familiar from the books. The magic seems to emulate that found in the books really well. Elements like Courage and Corruption also model what is found in the source material...Suffice to say, after reading the Lord of the Rings more than a dozen times since I was about 10, I was still surprised by how the designers could find something in a passage that was perfect inspiration for a game element, that I had never taken notice of before.

Quote from: RPGPunditFeel free to debate the point with me, or to just propose some other setting you feel that way about.

RPGPundit

I agree 100%  I have players that want to play in Middle Earth, but really what can you do there that's 1. Not epic (because you're playing with starting level PCs) and 2. "Feels" like LotR and not just another fantasy game.

Another setting I feel the same way about:  Dragonlance, for basically the same reasons.  

Pete

Quote from: RPGPundit"The Trouble" of playing as a campaign, that is.

I'll start: Middle Earth.  Yup. Its just too small and too focused on the characters from the movies; unlike say Star Wars (where there's a huge galaxy one can have all kinds of epic things in without stepping on the movie's feet, and various different time periods that would each have a very different feel to them), Middle Earth has always felt to me like you can't really be anything other than non-epic, because Tolkien already took all the good epicness.  Also, outside of the time of the war of the Ring, its a pretty dull place for a fantasy world.

Feel free to debate the point with me, or to just propose some other setting you feel that way about.

RPGPundit

Why not change stuff or rewrite things?

That may sound like a strange position coming from me, considering how much I bitch about what Rifts has become.  But the main difference between Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, or Robotech, and Rifts is that Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Robotech have all had their stories told.  There isn't another author out there intentionally trying to make cooler GM-PCs to rule the campaign world and make your PCs insignificant.  With Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Robotech you have a story and a template of how everything works.  You can either work with it, or adapt it to your needs.

I inevitably bring up playing and running Robotech for 10 years, and this post is no exception.  In those 10 years there was never any feeling that "the adventures of Rick Hunter are cooler than ours."  Even when the characters from the series appearred in guest roles, they never overshadowed the PCs.  There was never an attitude of "you can't do that!  Because you can't do anything better than the 'canon' characters!"

And the time eventually came when we realized that our Robotech was OURS.  We said "to hell with what happened in the show" and went off on a wild divergence.  We used the trappings of the show to do our own thing after using the show as a unified starting point.  One of the best things Palladium ever did was in making their RPG adapatation of Robotech a catalog of hardware stats from the show, while leaving out episode synopses and such.  In short, they gave you all the pieces and told you to go play.  And, like a giant lego set, you could build all sorts of interesting things.