Quote from: 1of3;642794Wait... didn't you just explain oh how experienced you are and that everyone who might like "level" is surely newb?

?

So you think that when I say:

"Levels offer benefits, especially for novices."

I really mean:

"LOL. Ignorant newbs heart teh levels! FAIL. Plusly, I am tehz masta!"

Yeah, I'm gonna disagree with you, there. Simple grammar indicates you're mistaken.

And, not to poke the wound, but my post was correct. Levels do have benefits. (Nearly all design options do.) They also have drawbacks, some of which I elucidated.

Seriously, was my language that serpentine and opaque?

Quote from: Drohem;642731I like chocolate...

I like peanut butter...

I like chocolate and peanut butter together.

Oh sure but it wouldn't be much of a thread if we were alll singing from the same hymn sheet. The cut and thrust of vigorous debate isn't ragefighting, my friend! Usually.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642732I think OHT is correct: Class/Levels offer some very real benefits, especially to novice players and DM's.

Whoa hold on there, I said nothing about classes and they are not inextricably bound to levels. Skill bundles, professions and so on can help build logical intuitive structure into games, you'd expect a policeman to have a certain set of skills, some of which are unique.

With that said arbitrary class restrictions are worse than levels, as you said yourself.
"I pick up this sword and stick someone with it"
"You can't"
"Okay how about this crossbow, look it's already drawn, all I have to do is squeeze the trigger"
"No, sorry"
"Why not?"
"It, eh, messes with your, um, magical...mojo..."
"Okay, can I throw it at wizards when they are casting spells to mess them up, or maybe hang it round my neck to ward off evil magicks?"
"..."

or

"So I'm physically able to carry three sets of chainmail without interfering with spellcasting, but I can't wear one?"

Once class mechanics make sense it can be great. WFRPG did a fine job with its career paths for example, serving also as a highly entertaining introduction to the setting.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642732• Clear goals and rewards for play.

Non level based systems have that too, even clearer since you aren't trying to game for mysterious advancements, you're trying to game as the character would want to act. Levels are a big immersion buster.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642732• Easy to judge relative power of PC's and monsters.

Two points here - if the system is so predictable that looking up two stats and comparing them can give you a very good idea how a combat will turn out, it seems a bit ... predictable. Secondly of course is that if a system makes it that difficult to judge relative power, it's probably too convoluted.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642732• Reducing cognitive load (i.e. fewer choices) — you get what the class offers at that level. (Research on why this is valuable.)

Class based skill structures offer the same advantage. Or even low quantities of skills of any sort.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642732• Easier to balance than skill systems.

True but that's a designer's load to bear, by the time it hits the table the group and GM should have no idea it exists. Frontloaded and mostly invisible.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642732• (wrt OSR products) Known and tested starting point makes development simpler (as a lot of decisions have already been made).

Again, meaningless at the table.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642732• Campaign color is easily implemented with classes. (See Arcana Evolved.)

Again, classes are not intrinsically bound to levels, far from it.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642732In other words, what makes them great for novices, is what makes them bad for me.

Skill bundled classes are even easier to understand and don't hazard immersion. The original level based D&D games weren't neccessarily designed with full knowledge of the other options, there's been a lot of development in the interim.

Quote from: jhkim;642788In my experience, level-based systems (following D&D) tend to center character creation only on making 1st level characters.  Making higher level characters is often unsupported or very cumbersome to support - i.e. you have to create a 1st level character and then go through the process of leveling them up one level at a time, which makes the creation process long and cumbersome.  

I think this is a good point. To ram the point home that you can choose anywhere along the zero to hero axis to play your game, it does need to be explicitly stated in the game, along with examples on how to do it.

Quote from: The Traveller;642816Whoa hold on there, I said nothing about

I was referencing OHT — One Horse Town, not yourself. Apologies for the confusion.

Quote from: The Traveller;642816Levels are a big immersion buster.

Levels have drawbacks, too. Which is why I don't like them. But they have strengths and drawbacks, my entire point.

Quote from: The Traveller;642816Again, classes are not intrinsically bound to levels, far from it.

I can think of some class systems without levels, but the converse is harder to come by; care to name some? I can only think of 2 of any significance, but one is sort of bad in character generation (d20 CoC), and the other is a bit of a stretch calling it level based (M&M).

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;642829I can think of some class systems without levels, but the converse is harder to come by; care to name some? I can only think of 2 of any significance, but one is sort of bad in character generation (d20 CoC), and the other is a bit of a stretch calling it level based (M&M).

Any game where creator creation using points is a level only game by another name. In HERO for example you can build a character with say 50 points. That could also be called a 50th level character.

Level is just a measurement system, any game that has one can be viewed in such terms.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642825I was referencing OHT — One Horse Town, not yourself. Apologies for the confusion.

I don't think he said anything about classes either.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642825Levels have drawbacks, too. Which is why I don't like them. But they have strengths and drawbacks, my entire point.

Yes, but as I attempted to detail above, non level based systems either have the same strengths or do it better. The only advantage from your list over skill based advancement is ease of threat assignment, and it's debatable whether or not that indicates a strength in the overall system. My take on it is 'not really'.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI can think of some class systems without levels, but the converse is harder to come by; care to name some? I can only think of 2 of any significance, but one is sort of bad in character generation (d20 CoC), and the other is a bit of a stretch calling it level based (M&M).

Cyberpunk 2020 is the definitive example, there are others. My own system doesn't use levels, except to a very slight extent in broad magical competence, which can be excused by saying well it's magic, it doesn't have to be realistic or intuitive, it's in the blood or whatever.

In real life every level based measure is in fact a measurement of skills. Belts in martial arts, the degrees of third level education, all of these indicate higher levels of skills in that profession, earned by exercising those skills. It's a lot more intuitive to track skill competence than it is to go wandering down the endless garden path of what XP should be awarded for then boosting an arbitrary collection of abilities based on actions that might never have used those abilities.

Quote from: gleichman;642831Any game where creator creation using points is a level only game by another name. In HERO for example you can build a character with say 50 points. That could also be called a 50th level character.

Level is just a measurement system, any game that has one can be viewed in such terms.

I wouldn't call that a level based system but a point based one. Hero 4e was a little level-ish in that it established limits on dice and attack modifiers. But still, character progression is blatantly not level-based.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;642836I wouldn't call that a level based system but a point based one. Hero 4e was a little level-ish in that it established limits on dice and attack modifiers. But still, character progression is blatantly not level-based.

Level is only a term that groups abilities. HERO has abilities and the point total group them.

We often as, "so what level characters for this campaign?"

And answer "75 points"

There's little magical about the term 'Level'. You're correct about common usage, but I think common usage blinds one to what it's actually doing.

ADDED: Age of Heroes has an unpublished classless Class that is basically just Level that I'm playing with for an expansion. Don't know if I will actually use it however.

Quote from: The Traveller;642834Cyberpunk 2020 is the definitive example, there are others.
In real life every level based measure is in fact a measurement of skills. Belts in

It's been a while since I played, but that doesn't match my recollection of the system. As I recall, CP 2020 had linear point based initial buy (with life path strapped on and option for rolled ability scores) and escalating cost skills during play with no underlying character level. That's not what I mean when I say level-based, and I'd wager the same is true of most forum-members.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;642843It's been a while since I played, but that doesn't match my recollection of the system. As I recall, CP 2020 had linear point based initial buy (with life path strapped on and option for rolled ability scores) and escalating cost skills during play with no underlying character level. That's not what I mean when I say level-based, and I'd wager the same is true of most forum-members.

Sorry I misread what you were saying, I thought you were asking for class systems without levels.

I'm not sure why you'd want a level system without classes?

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;642829I can think of some class systems without levels, but the converse is harder to come by; care to name some?

I'm pretty sure one of the Gamma Worlds, maybe 4th?

Probably Silverlion can illuminate some more.

Quote from: The Traveller;642846Sorry I misread what you were saying, I thought you were asking for class systems without levels.

I'm not sure why you'd want a level system without classes?

Me neither, but that may be my more general taste/ bias speaking. I generally prefer some sort of class/template/"skill cluster" sort of thing whether I'm using levels or not.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642849I'm pretty sure one of the Gamma Worlds, maybe 4th?

Makes sense. The one context I don't find classes to helpful are those in which powers define the character more than skills/training.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;642732I think OHT is correct: Class/Levels offer some very real benefits, especially to novice players and DM's.

Also to casual players of any level of experience. I define casual players as those who aren't interested in reading (let alone studying and mastering) a lot of rules to create a character or to play the game. Selecting (in D&D terms) either a fighter, a cleric, a mage, or a thief requires much less rules knowledge and time than creating any of those characters with a skill-based system.