So, for my Pulp game, I'm including vehicles in the equipment.

I'm of course including: Type, AC, Speed, Cost.

But I started thinking...

Should the vehicle count as armor for the occupants? I mean it might be easier to hit a sedan than you but the bullet might be stoped or deviate and not hit you.

Also, should the speed be a variable?

What about maneuverability?

Due to the time period I'm thinking of speeds from 30 to 120 miles per hour for land vehicles, would this be okay even for a roadster/sport car?

Once this is settled I'll build a table for the bonus/penalization due to SIZ (Size), AC & MAN (maneuverability).

Edited to add:

This of course is for non bullet proof vehicles

i started to think about this when looking over the rules for vehicles in Cyberpunk Red.

I came to the conclusion that while you might hit the CAR, in all likelyhood a bullet would just hit nothing important but air and pass through spending a minimum of its energy and just make a neat hole, doing 1 pt of damage.

If you want to truly stop a vehicle with a regular gun, you need to aim for the Engine, the Wheels or the Driver. All which counts as shots at a specific target location.

I guess you could make a hit location chart, but a regular car would be maybe 40% you hit something vulnerable and 60% it pass through harmlessly.

Of course, the more advanced technolgy of the vehicle, more parts could be considered vulnerable, A WW1 fight is made of string and canvas, with a engine and a driver. Most of it is just air.
With WW2 you could add fuel tanks in the wings but a hit there might only limit the range.
For modern jets I dont know if there is anwywhere you can hit it that doesnt fuck something important up if it wasnt for redundant systems.

But those things are a little outside of what you're asking for.

Should vehicle count as armor? Yes, unless it hits somewhere it doesnt protect, like the windows. But a shot through the car door might at least stop a little bit of damage if it hits a driver or passenger.

I cant tell what you mean by speed being a variable, but if you ask if it can be a dice rather than a number, yes. A car with a speed of D8 would have the same top speed as a car with D6+2, but the latter would have better acceleration since it has a higher average result.

I dont know why the same reasoning couldnt be used to simulate maneuverability as well. A truck would have d4, a car d6-d8, a sports car d10-d12.
And a tank would have d20 because it can spin in place by having the thread go in different directions

A quick google regarding speed of 1930s car yield the result that the fastest sports car in 1930s where the Duesenberg SJ with 140mph so that sounds about right.

Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 25, 2021, 08:05:16 PM
i started to think about this when looking over the rules for vehicles in Cyberpunk Red.

I came to the conclusion that while you might hit the CAR, in all likelyhood a bullet would just hit nothing important but air and pass through spending a minimum of its energy and just make a neat hole, doing 1 pt of damage.

If you want to truly stop a vehicle with a regular gun, you need to aim for the Engine, the Wheels or the Driver. All which counts as shots at a specific target location.

I guess you could make a hit location chart, but a regular car would be maybe 40% you hit something vulnerable and 60% it pass through harmlessly.

Of course, the more advanced technolgy of the vehicle, more parts could be considered vulnerable, A WW1 fight is made of string and canvas, with a engine and a driver. Most of it is just air.
With WW2 you could add fuel tanks in the wings but a hit there might only limit the range.
For modern jets I dont know if there is anwywhere you can hit it that doesnt fuck something important up if it wasnt for redundant systems.

But those things are a little outside of what you're asking for.

Should vehicle count as armor? Yes, unless it hits somewhere it doesnt protect, like the windows. But a shot through the car door might at least stop a little bit of damage if it hits a driver or passenger.

I cant tell what you mean by speed being a variable, but if you ask if it can be a dice rather than a number, yes. A car with a speed of D8 would have the same top speed as a car with D6+2, but the latter would have better acceleration since it has a higher average result.

I dont know why the same reasoning couldnt be used to simulate maneuverability as well. A truck would have d4, a car d6-d8, a sports car d10-d12.
And a tank would have d20 because it can spin in place by having the thread go in different directions

A quick google regarding speed of 1930s car yield the result that the fastest sports car in 1930s where the Duesenberg SJ with 140mph so that sounds about right.

By speed/maneuverability being a variable I meant to the AC of the vehicle and it's occupants. As in it gives a bonus or penalty to being hit.

Say you're in a car going at 100MH, you're swerving all over the highway, you already got +1/-1 to your AC from the car's body, should you also get something from the speed and the car moving all over the place from left to right? My instinct tells me yes, what do you think?

I'm going with the size of the vehicle makes it easier to hit, thanks for that approx of what you hit on a vehicle, hadn't thought of that. So lets say you start with a roll of =/< 40% to stop the vehicle, then you add/substract bonus/penalties from the size, speed and maneuverability and what the driver is doing and if the shooter is aiming (or trying to). Each gives you a +/- 5% but I will let it to the GM to judge on the spot, because fuck trying to do those tables.

Thanks, for the google-fu, that was my next step.

And thus Car Wars was invented... heh-heh.

Have a look at Autoduel Champions if you have not yet. Its a sort of conversion of gurps Autoduel to fit the Champions system.

If we are talking about just cars then unless moving really fast they tend to be fairly easy to target. But as was noted above. Hitting the car isnt the task. Its hitting something vital. Engine or wheels if trying to stop just the car. Or driver/passengers too if trying to hit them as well. and there is near always the chance of that anyhow.

Speed will make hitting a little harder. But I suspect looking up some military notes will tell better.

I can tell you that hitting things like aeroplanes from aeroplanes is anything but easy.

I think Palladium had the right idea that past a certain point small arms fire will have little to no effect on military grade vehicles.

Quote from: Omega on April 25, 2021, 10:54:03 PM
And thus Car Wars was invented... heh-heh.

Have a look at Autoduel Champions if you have not yet. Its a sort of conversion of gurps Autoduel to fit the Champions system.

If we are talking about just cars then unless moving really fast they tend to be fairly easy to target. But as was noted above. Hitting the car isnt the task. Its hitting something vital. Engine or wheels if trying to stop just the car. Or driver/passengers too if trying to hit them as well. and there is near always the chance of that anyhow.

Speed will make hitting a little harder. But I suspect looking up some military notes will tell better.

I can tell you that hitting things like aeroplanes from aeroplanes is anything but easy.

I think Palladium had the right idea that past a certain point small arms fire will have little to no effect on military grade vehicles.

LOL, sorta, kinda but not quite, I'm thinking that in a Pulp setting vehicle chases are innevitable, and so is firing into moving vehicles, so, besides the chase rules (that I still have to come with something I really like) I need to sort out the chances of bullets doing damage to both the vehicle and the ppl inside.

I'm not including military vehicles, I don't think those are really neccesary, but will include price and benefits of bullet proof armor for your vehicle.

Unless popular demand makes me include SOME military vehicles that is.

As for small arms, my guess would be a .22 has almost zero chance of stoping the vehicle unless it hits the tires, radiator or a hose. Need to check the derringer, see what caliber it was and since it's really short I'm guessing it doesn't hit/pierce the vehicle unles in short range?

But, would a .22 revolver pierce the vehicle? Enough to hit the ppl inside? Not through a window?

Being that here in México we don't own guns my knowledge of such things comes from movies, so not really accurate, but could be good for making the game like the pulp novels tho.

30s era vehicles are metal and heavy glass.  They gave good protection from pistol rounds.  The primary reason for the development of the .357 magnum was because the .38 and .45 were not powerful enough to penetrate.

.22 is too light and going to bounce right off unless maybe penetrating a window and that brings up bullet deflection.  Heavier bullets are deflected less by penetrating objects.  Unless you are going for a really granular system I wouldn't worry about deflection and just treat the whole vehicle as a unit.

Generally speaking they were looking for 1000 fps muzzle velocity to penetrate cars.  You should be able to look up whatever early 20th century firearm you want and find the ammo specs.  If it is less than the speed barrier then just class it as completely ineffective.

Then just fine tune for open top vehicles like roadsters or shooting out tires.  (some sort of to hit modifier)

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 25, 2021, 11:30:06 PM
30s era vehicles are metal and heavy glass.  They gave good protection from pistol rounds.  The primary reason for the development of the .357 magnum was because the .38 and .45 were not powerful enough to penetrate.

.22 is too light and going to bounce right off unless maybe penetrating a window and that brings up bullet deflection.  Heavier bullets are deflected less by penetrating objects.  Unless you are going for a really granular system I wouldn't worry about deflection and just treat the whole vehicle as a unit.

Generally speaking they were looking for 1000 fps muzzle velocity to penetrate cars.  You should be able to look up whatever early 20th century firearm you want and find the ammo specs.  If it is less than the speed barrier then just class it as completely ineffective.

Then just fine tune for open top vehicles like roadsters or shooting out tires.  (some sort of to hit modifier)

As a total ignoramus regarding firearms I need to ask this: How sure are you of that? I'm getting very diferent opinions from other people.

For the gun nut, if you're out by a grain of powder it's not good enough.

For the combat veteran, if you don't model battlefield psychology it's not good enough

For the action movie fan, if you can be killed by a bullet or mooks can't it's not good enough.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 11:45:32 PM
For the gun nut, if you're out by a grain of powder it's not good enough.

For the combat veteran, if you don't model battlefield psychology it's not good enough

For the action movie fan, if you can be killed by a bullet or mooks can't it's not good enough.

LOL, that's correct, which is why I want the more accurate info to do whatever I damn well please and whoever likes it good and whoever doesn't good too.

I'm aiming for a good enough simulation from my POV. Which I'm sure won't be good enough for most, but you can't please everybody so I'm okay with that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:44:48 PM
As a total ignoramus regarding firearms I need to ask this: How sure are you of that? I'm getting very different opinions from other people.

I once told Doc Sammy that I sent him some firearms info in a PM because OSR arguments are nothing compared to firearms arguments. 

Most people have emotional ties to one round or another and that can clutter stuff up. 
One thing to watch out for is using modern velocities. 
Muzzle velocities increased dramatically after WWII.
Since barrel length affects muzzle velocity, handguns specifically were really improved with modern powders.

There is a reason the cops used BARs when they ambushed  Bonnie and Clyde...

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 26, 2021, 12:04:03 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:44:48 PM
As a total ignoramus regarding firearms I need to ask this: How sure are you of that? I'm getting very different opinions from other people.

I once told Doc Sammy that I sent him some firearms info in a PM because OSR arguments are nothing compared to firearms arguments. 

Most people have emotional ties to one round or another and that can clutter stuff up. 
One thing to watch out for is using modern velocities. 
Muzzle velocities increased dramatically after WWII.
Since barrel length affects muzzle velocity, handguns specifically were really improved with modern powders.

There is a reason the cops used BARs when they ambushed  Bonnie and Clyde...

Well, if it's not too much to ask, would you send me that info? It would help me a lot in the making of the game.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 08:41:36 PM
By speed/maneuverability being a variable I meant to the AC of the vehicle and it's occupants. As in it gives a bonus or penalty to being hit.

Say you're in a car going at 100MH, you're swerving all over the highway, you already got +1/-1 to your AC from the car's body, should you also get something from the speed and the car moving all over the place from left to right? My instinct tells me yes, what do you think?

I'm going with the size of the vehicle makes it easier to hit, thanks for that approx of what you hit on a vehicle, hadn't thought of that. So lets say you start with a roll of =/< 40% to stop the vehicle, then you add/substract bonus/penalties from the size, speed and maneuverability and what the driver is doing and if the shooter is aiming (or trying to). Each gives you a +/- 5% but I will let it to the GM to judge on the spot, because fuck trying to do those tables.

Oh I see. Yes. I think so.

In fact, when I made my own vehicle combat house rules for Star wars D20 the players announced the speed they were going at and then they rolled against a difficulty of twice that speed. So faster=harder maneuver.
But speed also added to the AC of their craft. So faster=harder to be hit

A Xwing at speed of 7 would roll at a difficulty of 14 and add +7 to its AC while the Tie fighter at speed 8 would roll at difficulty 16 and increase AC by +8

lastly, simply comparing speed at the end of turn decided if the two fighters moved closer or more apart.

As for maneuverability, in my rules it was used more to decide if the other ship was in front of your forward facing lasers and you could shoot or if the other guy was to your side or your rear in which case you might need turrets.

that would not suit a pulpgame with characters leaning out of windows with tommy guns so I think maneuver would be better as a fixed bonus to driving rolls. However, a driving roll for evasive maneuvers might give a small dodge bonus for that round, I guess.

Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 26, 2021, 02:42:33 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 08:41:36 PM
By speed/maneuverability being a variable I meant to the AC of the vehicle and it's occupants. As in it gives a bonus or penalty to being hit.

Say you're in a car going at 100MH, you're swerving all over the highway, you already got +1/-1 to your AC from the car's body, should you also get something from the speed and the car moving all over the place from left to right? My instinct tells me yes, what do you think?

I'm going with the size of the vehicle makes it easier to hit, thanks for that approx of what you hit on a vehicle, hadn't thought of that. So lets say you start with a roll of =/< 40% to stop the vehicle, then you add/substract bonus/penalties from the size, speed and maneuverability and what the driver is doing and if the shooter is aiming (or trying to). Each gives you a +/- 5% but I will let it to the GM to judge on the spot, because fuck trying to do those tables.

Oh I see. Yes. I think so.

In fact, when I made my own vehicle combat house rules for Star wars D20 the players announced the speed they were going at and then they rolled against a difficulty of twice that speed. So faster=harder maneuver.
But speed also added to the AC of their craft. So faster=harder to be hit

A Xwing at speed of 7 would roll at a difficulty of 14 and add +7 to its AC while the Tie fighter at speed 8 would roll at difficulty 16 and increase AC by +8

lastly, simply comparing speed at the end of turn decided if the two fighters moved closer or more apart.

As for maneuverability, in my rules it was used more to decide if the other ship was in front of your forward facing lasers and you could shoot or if the other guy was to your side or your rear in which case you might need turrets.

that would not suit a pulpgame with characters leaning out of windows with tommy guns so I think maneuver would be better as a fixed bonus to driving rolls. However, a driving roll for evasive maneuvers might give a small dodge bonus for that round, I guess.

And if you got the skill or feat then you get a +1 to evasive driving.

Yeah, it's taking shape finally, thanks again.

Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 26, 2021, 02:42:33 AM
In fact, when I made my own vehicle combat house rules for Star wars D20 the players announced the speed they were going at and then they rolled against a difficulty of twice that speed. So faster=harder maneuver.

The original James Bond RPG did something similar. The speed a player chose to go would determine the difficulty of performing a maneuver. This would probably be the simplest system; having a base target number determined by your speed with a maneuvering and size modifier based on the specific vehicle.

One other thing the James Bond did was have a player's speed determine his initiative. So the faster character determined the pace of the chase. Speed was selected by the PCs and the GM secretly so there was a "push your luck" element to using them.

Of course, this is really just about vehicle vs vehicle chases. Using vehicles against a person on foot would be a different story (and, IMO, much more difficult to manage).

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 26, 2021, 08:12:31 AM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 26, 2021, 02:42:33 AM
In fact, when I made my own vehicle combat house rules for Star wars D20 the players announced the speed they were going at and then they rolled against a difficulty of twice that speed. So faster=harder maneuver.

The original James Bond RPG did something similar. The speed a player chose to go would determine the difficulty of performing a maneuver. This would probably be the simplest system; having a base target number determined by your speed with a maneuvering and size modifier based on the specific vehicle.

One other thing the James Bond did was have a player's speed determine his initiative. So the faster character determined the pace of the chase. Speed was selected by the PCs and the GM secretly so there was a "push your luck" element to using them.

Of course, this is really just about vehicle vs vehicle chases. Using vehicles against a person on foot would be a different story (and, IMO, much more difficult to manage).

I actually own a copy of the James Bond system you're talking about