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Author Topic: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs  (Read 1135 times)

GeekyBugle

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Re: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs
« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2021, 12:16:04 AM »
Guns need kewl names.

Beyond that, the granularity only matters in terms of game stats. Attack bonus, damage, armor penetration, effective range, extreme range, price.

Yeah, limiting the granularity but including a list of kewl names related to the granularity.
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Spinachcat

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Re: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs
« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2021, 12:21:07 AM »
just as any DM can have an invisible magic-user fireball the party.

Don't knock that! One of my favorite convention games STARTS with the PCs chilling in their favorite Ye Olde Tavern when it gets nuked by an invisible mage. They were 5th level and it was 22 damage, 11 if saved so even the Mage survived-ish.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs
« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2021, 09:19:55 AM »
Some statistics might be of interest here.

Even cops mostly miss [pdf link, lengthy, below is from pp14-15].

Quote
Officers involved in gunfights fired, on average, 7.6 rounds, compared with an average of 3.5 for officers who fired against subjects who did not return fire.

Between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate was 18 percent for gunfights.

Between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate in situations in which fire was not returned was 30 percent.

Accuracy improves at close range, with officers hitting their targets 37 percent of the time at distances of seven yards or less; at longer ranges, hit rates fall off sharply, to 23 percent.
Against a suspect firing back, 18% of 7.6 rounds struck, or 1.37 rounds on average. Against suspect not firing back, 30% of 3.5 rounds struck, or 1.05 rounds on average. So essentially they're firing until they get one hit, maybe two.

As for survival rates, the Brady United guys tell us,

34,566 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive, 14,062 are murdered - which is a 71% survival rate.

They also tell us that 521 are killed by legal intervention, and 1,376 are shot by legal intervention and survive, which is a 72% survival rate.

As well, 23,437 die from gun suicide, and 3,554 survive an attempted gun suicide - so even attempted suicide with a firearm has a 13% survival rate.

Going to the warfare side of things, about 90% of Americans who do die from combat wounds (not all or even mostly gunshot) do so before reaching medical care. Overall 92% of those wounded will survive. If the medic can keep you alive long enough to reach the hospital, you'll very probably make it.

In Conflict (which has now been published, see sig), if shot unarmoured then 78% of hits will be nonlethal; if armoured, 92% will be nonlethal. And "lethal" is just if you're untreated - treatment may save you, and if it's a proper physician with a trauma ward, very probably save you.

Honestly, the odds are better than for a 1st level AD&D character.
That's because contrary to popular belief, most police departments are not 'highly trained' in accuracy and firearm handling. At one point, one department (I want to say NYPD but I could be mistaken) was issuing ONE BOX of ammo to each officer to practice PER YEAR. As in, fifty rounds.

I'd also be very hesitant to take any data from Brady at face value. They have a vested interest in crapping all over legal firearms and self defense.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs
« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2021, 09:53:49 AM »
You don't need desperate amounts of training to hit a man-sized target at under 7 yards 100% of the time on the range. Essentially anyone strong enough to hold up a pistol can do that. That's just adrenaline messing them up - plus, you know, it puts you off a bit when the other guy is trying to kill you. A wee bit distracting.

Soldiers get even worse hit rates, since their ranges are greater, and there are more people shooting back at them.

All I'm interested in here are survival rates from being shot. They've no reason to lie about that. And I'm not here to talk about firearms control, take your American politics elsewhere.

The point is simply that in combat people miss far, far more often than they hit with firearms, and that a surprising number of people survive gunshots, because modern medicine is awesome. And calibre etc really are not significant factors except when it comes to body armour.

Here is the most basic and realistic system for handgun combats,

Roll 1d6 for initiative.
+1 if you have extensive (2+ years) training, not just on the range.
+1 if you were lying in wait for him
+1 if there are more of you than the other guy

Roll 1d6 to hit. You hit on 6+
+0 if you've never fired in combat before
+1 if he is not shooting at you
+1 if you have extensive (2+ years) training, not just on the range
+0 at under 7 yards
- 1 at 7-14 yards, -2 at 15-21 yards, etc
-1 if he is wearing body armour.

Whoever is hit falls down and loses interest in proceedings. Go to hospital. Roll 1d6, on 1-2 you die, on 3-6 you live. Now roll 1d6 for how many months before you can return to duty - if you roll 6, roll again and add, and so on. If it's more than 12 months you retire with a disability pension.

Chris24601

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Re: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs
« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2021, 01:01:32 PM »
The only suggestion I’d make is to throw an extra +1 to hit if the target has no cover they can use (they call situations like that turkey shoots for a reason).

Ghostmaker

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Re: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs
« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2021, 01:44:48 PM »
Well, are we talking cover or concealment? I admit D&D did make a good point of distinguishing those two. I would argue cover grants a hard bonus or even immunity unless your weapon's penetrating capability exceeds its durability (at which point it becomes concealment). Concealment might grant a -1 or more to hit depending on how much of the person is concealed.

oggsmash

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Re: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs
« Reply #66 on: Today at 09:41:30 AM »
You don't need desperate amounts of training to hit a man-sized target at under 7 yards 100% of the time on the range. Essentially anyone strong enough to hold up a pistol can do that. That's just adrenaline messing them up - plus, you know, it puts you off a bit when the other guy is trying to kill you. A wee bit distracting.

Soldiers get even worse hit rates, since their ranges are greater, and there are more people shooting back at them.

All I'm interested in here are survival rates from being shot. They've no reason to lie about that. And I'm not here to talk about firearms control, take your American politics elsewhere.

The point is simply that in combat people miss far, far more often than they hit with firearms, and that a surprising number of people survive gunshots, because modern medicine is awesome. And calibre etc really are not significant factors except when it comes to body armour.

Here is the most basic and realistic system for handgun combats,

Roll 1d6 for initiative.
+1 if you have extensive (2+ years) training, not just on the range.
+1 if you were lying in wait for him
+1 if there are more of you than the other guy

Roll 1d6 to hit. You hit on 6+
+0 if you've never fired in combat before
+1 if he is not shooting at you
+1 if you have extensive (2+ years) training, not just on the range
+0 at under 7 yards
- 1 at 7-14 yards, -2 at 15-21 yards, etc
-1 if he is wearing body armour.

Whoever is hit falls down and loses interest in proceedings. Go to hospital. Roll 1d6, on 1-2 you die, on 3-6 you live. Now roll 1d6 for how many months before you can return to duty - if you roll 6, roll again and add, and so on. If it's more than 12 months you retire with a disability pension.


 I agree about how many people survive is surprising and find it odd people use homicide as a metric of violent crime in the USA when people survive HORRIBLE injuries all the time (largely because the USA probably has the absolute best trauma doctors in the world, with a combination of experience a wealth of wartime tested methods and 1st world medicine) because of ever advancing medical tech.

   What I find really surprising is how many people survived gunshots in the civil war era and afterwards given the medical care they often got.  I think humans are incredibly resilient, and at the same time oddly fragile.  Which is hard to present in a game sometimes, but I think your mechanics are capturing the idea violence is very dangerous, but if lucky and good you can come out alright (which also makes for a very entertaining after game story). edited to add...A story I remember reading years ago was about how "Wild Bill" got his reputation cemented in the west.  He was in a gunfight with several men in a bar (I think 3 but memory is imperfect) and was shot several times and survived.  All three of the other men died, because Bill only shot for the head or the heart, and even under duress didnt miss.  He used a .36 navy, which was considered a pea caliber, but Bill liked it because he was accurate with it, and had balls of carbon steel. 
« Last Edit: Today at 09:44:18 AM by oggsmash »

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs
« Reply #67 on: Today at 10:46:44 AM »
My Conflict rules are more complex than that, since they must cover more than "cop meets suspect who is keen to die" scenarios, and the odds are slightly more generous than reality, since when I squished things to make a d6,d6 chart with unarmoured, armour vs frag and armour vs firearm columns, and when I made the first aid and physician rules to fit a 2d6 resolution mechanic, at each step I had to round odds up or down to fit the scale, and I rounded the death odds down in each case.

Nonetheless it's fairly deadly, though as I said less deadly than being a 1st level AD&D1e character. In both cases the player's choices can alter things.

An interesting video came out recently. It was an attempted heist (nobody in the video is physically harmed, though there is some profanity) on an armoured cash vehicle, which was foiled not by gunfire, but by aggressive driving from the driver. The driver is in fact a former police officer who instruct other police; his partner's name and experience has not been made public, but he is obviously younger and less experienced.

As the video goes on, you can see that he is obviously experienced and competent, nonetheless he becomes more erratic and agitated as his adrenaline builds up. He would be experiencing numbness, deafness, altered perception of distance etc - and tunnel vision. This explains his running the vehicle off the road and getting it stuck. His sidekick doesn't get amped up because he's obviously less experienced and doesn't know what to do - but he does exactly what he should do in this situation, which is not to bother the more experienced guy, and to do exactly what that guy tells him.

With a stuck vehicle, the driver gets out at the end ready to make a "last stand" - but the robbers had given up and fucked off. The driver was thus following the classic AD&D1e PHB advice: "Avoid unnecessary encounters."

Good life advice, really.



« Last Edit: Today at 10:48:30 AM by Kyle Aaron »

oggsmash

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Re: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs
« Reply #68 on: Today at 10:50:51 AM »
My Conflict rules are more complex than that, since they must cover more than "cop meets suspect who is keen to die" scenarios, and the odds are slightly more generous than reality, since when I squished things to make a d6,d6 chart with unarmoured, armour vs frag and armour vs firearm columns, and when I made the first aid and physician rules to fit a 2d6 resolution mechanic, at each step I had to round odds up or down to fit the scale, and I rounded the death odds down in each case.

Nonetheless it's fairly deadly, those as I said less deadly than being a 1st level AD&D1e character. In both cases the player's choices can alter things.

An interesting video came out recently. It was an attempted heist (nobody in the video is physically harmed, though there is some profanity) on an armoured cash vehicle, which was foiled not by gunfire, but by aggressive driving from the driver. The driver is in fact a former police officer who instruct other police; his partner's name and experience has not been made public, but he is obviously younger and less experienced.

As the video goes on, you can see that he is obviously experienced and competent, nonetheless he becomes more erratic and agitated as his adrenaline builds up. He would be experiencing numbness, deafness, altered perception of distance etc - and tunnel vision. This explains his running the vehicle off the road and getting it stuck. His sidekick doesn't get amped up because he's obviously less experienced and doesn't know what to do - but he does exactly what he should do in this situation, which is not to bother the more experienced guy, and to do exactly what that guy tells him.

With a stuck vehicle, the driver gets out at the end ready to make a "last stand" - but the robbers had given up and fucked off. The driver was thus following the classic AD&D1e PHB advice: "Avoid unnecessary encounters."



   I watched that last week, and it looked to me like the younger guy was doing all he could to control his breathing to not have a panic attack (which is natural).   The driver was a damned boss.  I would also say the version of "pull over" the hijackers used was pretty cold blooded (just opening up fire) in that they seemed to just be willing to murder the guys right off the bat.   I do not think the driver got out to make a last stand, I think he got out to take cover with his bullet proof van and kill the poor idiots who thought they were robbing a 7-11.  But I think the balls he showed stand up regardless of what was on his mind when he hopped out to meet his or their fates.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Lets talk guns and granularity in RPGs
« Reply #69 on: Today at 10:52:47 AM »
My Conflict rules are more complex than that, since they must cover more than "cop meets suspect who is keen to die" scenarios, and the odds are slightly more generous than reality, since when I squished things to make a d6,d6 chart with unarmoured, armour vs frag and armour vs firearm columns, and when I made the first aid and physician rules to fit a 2d6 resolution mechanic, at each step I had to round odds up or down to fit the scale, and I rounded the death odds down in each case.

Nonetheless it's fairly deadly, though as I said less deadly than being a 1st level AD&D1e character. In both cases the player's choices can alter things.

An interesting video came out recently. It was an attempted heist (nobody in the video is physically harmed, though there is some profanity) on an armoured cash vehicle, which was foiled not by gunfire, but by aggressive driving from the driver. The driver is in fact a former police officer who instruct other police; his partner's name and experience has not been made public, but he is obviously younger and less experienced.

As the video goes on, you can see that he is obviously experienced and competent, nonetheless he becomes more erratic and agitated as his adrenaline builds up. He would be experiencing numbness, deafness, altered perception of distance etc - and tunnel vision. This explains his running the vehicle off the road and getting it stuck. His sidekick doesn't get amped up because he's obviously less experienced and doesn't know what to do - but he does exactly what he should do in this situation, which is not to bother the more experienced guy, and to do exactly what that guy tells him.

With a stuck vehicle, the driver gets out at the end ready to make a "last stand" - but the robbers had given up and fucked off. The driver was thus following the classic AD&D1e PHB advice: "Avoid unnecessary encounters."

Good life advice, really.


I saw that elsewhere.

My buttocks are still clenched so tight you couldn't hammer a straightpin up my ass with a sledgehammer. Jesus. Full credit to those guys.