What the tin says, how granular would you make/like/prefer your gun tables?

Lets talk about ammo for instance (only the more common calibers tho)

Handguns:
.22
.22 long/rifle
.22 Magnum
.32
.32 Magnum? does it exist?
.38 short
.38
.38 super
9mm
.45
.45 Magnum

Shotguns:
.410
28
20
16
12
10

Rifles.... You get it.

So how much granularity would you rather have in your games?

In my western game I had considered listing the various calibers available at the time for revolvers and rifles, but I didn't want to fill up my pages with list upon list just for a couple of groups of weapons. I chose instead to simply group the weapons as Small and Large caliber. I gave a range of .22 to .36 caliber as Small and .38 and up as Large for revolver rounds. Rifles, I didn't really differentiate because I only listed a Repeater, and most of them during the time period were large caliber. You could get .22s and such back then, but for the game I figured folks wouldn't be looking for a rifle unless it made a big bang. For shotguns I just listed some different types of damage and effects you can do with various shells; bird shot, rock salt, slugs. The main damage listing in the equipment section was for buck shot, and I listed the variances in the weapon description.

Quote from: Jamfke on April 25, 2021, 11:54:37 PM
In my western game I had considered listing the various calibers available at the time for revolvers and rifles, but I didn't want to fill up my pages with list upon list just for a couple of groups of weapons. I chose instead to simply group the weapons as Small and Large caliber. I gave a range of .22 to .36 caliber as Small and .38 and up as Large for revolver rounds. Rifles, I didn't really differentiate because I only listed a Repeater, and most of them during the time period were large caliber. You could get .22s and such back then, but for the game I figured folks wouldn't be looking for a rifle unless it made a big bang. For shotguns I just listed some different types of damage and effects you can do with various shells; bird shot, rock salt, slugs. The main damage listing in the equipment section was for buck shot, and I listed the variances in the weapon description.

That's the thing isn't it? How much can you put without being clutter that no one will use.

At most, I would accept category ammo. For example, heavy pistol ammo, light pistol ammo, light rifle ammo, heavy rifle ammo, shotgun ammo. A few weapons might have specialized or unique ammo, but most could easily fit into one of those categories.

Is there clearly one better option? At that point, any granularity you add will be moot because everyone will pick the best option. From a game standpoint, it's less about granularity and more about the range of effective/optimal options.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:27:35 PM
What the tin says, how granular would you make/like/prefer your gun tables? [...]

So how much granularity would you rather have in your games?

In Conflict I'm putting no granularity at all. The only difference between firearms - and indeed knives, etc - is whether the particular armour you're wearing offers any reduction of chance of serious wound.

Okay, there are two basic approaches. If you want to simulate each and every shot fired, then calibre etc probably matter to wound level... somewhat. Not as much as people think - I mean, I'd rather have a 7.62 in the meaty part of the thigh than a 5.56 in the eye. Where you're hit is a much bigger deal than exactly what you're hit with. I mean, assuming smallarms, obviously being hit with a rocket-propelled grenade or something is rather different. But within smallarms, and even with melee and brawling - doesn't matter much, where it hits is more important. Still, the calibre matters somewhat if you're simulating each and every shot.

But here's the thing. In an actual firefight, almost nobody fires just one shot. They keep shooting until they get enough hits that the guy falls down. In one big study of police-suspect shootings, the cops fired something like 5-6 rounds if the suspect was unarmed, and 10-14 rounds if he was armed. About 1 in 3 rounds hit when the guy was unarmed, and about 1 in 6 when he was armed. Either way it's 1-3 hits and he goes down.

This leads to the second possible approach, pioneered by D&D: relatively lengthy combat rounds where you're not rolling dice for each and every blow or shot, you're rolling dice for a hit which takes him down. You don't care about the ballistic trajectory of blah blah, you just care - what was the effect of all that noise? Whether that effect represents 1 round or 6 doesn't really matter.

Supporting this approach is the observation of every leader in combat, that if combatants have smaller calibre rounds, they fire more of them, and if they have larger magazines, they fire more, too. People just chuck stacks of lead at each-other until someone falls over.

So... granularity? None at all - all we want to know is: does it hit? and if it does hit, does the armour make any difference? Apart from that, we don't care.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 26, 2021, 12:28:57 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:27:35 PM
What the tin says, how granular would you make/like/prefer your gun tables? [...]

So how much granularity would you rather have in your games?

In Conflict I'm putting no granularity at all. The only difference between firearms - and indeed knives, etc - is whether the particular armour you're wearing offers any reduction of chance of serious wound.

Okay, there are two basic approaches. If you want to simulate each and every shot fired, then calibre etc probably matter to wound level... somewhat. Not as much as people think - I mean, I'd rather have a 7.62 in the meaty part of the thigh than a 5.56 in the eye. Where you're hit is a much bigger deal than exactly what you're hit with. I mean, assuming smallarms, obviously being hit with a rocket-propelled grenade or something is rather different. But within smallarms, and even with melee and brawling - doesn't matter much, where it hits is more important. Still, the calibre matters somewhat if you're simulating each and every shot.

But here's the thing. In an actual firefight, almost nobody fires just one shot. They keep shooting until they get enough hits that the guy falls down. In one big study of police-suspect shootings, the cops fired something like 5-6 rounds if the suspect was unarmed, and 10-14 rounds if he was armed. About 1 in 3 rounds hit when the guy was unarmed, and about 1 in 6 when he was armed. Either way it's 1-3 hits and he goes down.

This leads to the second possible approach, pioneered by D&D: relatively lengthy combat rounds where you're not rolling dice for each and every blow or shot, you're rolling dice for a hit which takes him down. You don't care about the ballistic trajectory of blah blah, you just care - what was the effect of all that noise? Whether that effect represents 1 round or 6 doesn't really matter.

Supporting this approach is the observation of every leader in combat, that if combatants have smaller calibre rounds, they fire more of them, and if they have larger magazines, they fire more, too. People just chuck stacks of lead at each-other until someone falls over.

So... granularity? None at all - all we want to know is: does it hit? and if it does hit, does the armour make any difference? Apart from that, we don't care.

Thanks for your input, yes, where you're hit matters A LOT, but in some cases also with what you're hit, even with handguns, it's not the same getting a .38 in the shoulder as getting a .44 Magnum in the shoulder.

And even with "armor", even if the bullet doesn't penetrate, it will hurt a lot more a bigger caliber than a small one.

Yes, we care if we killed the other guy, but we also need to be able to immerse in the game, IMHO some ammount of, lets call it "realism" helps with the immersion by allowing the suspension of disbelief to kick in.

At least that's my take, but IF I interpret you correctly you would be happy with Small, Medium and Large as the distinction between handguns.

I've got distinctions simply based on how likely they are to penetrate armour. In the link, see the Wounding article. Basically: weapons are rated +1 to +4, and armour +0 (clothing) to +3 (modern gear with plates etc). Technically EOD gear would be AC+4 but nobody's fighting in that.

Category 1 = very light rifles, light pistols, and all melee weapons including fist, etc.
Category 2 = heavy pistols, submachineguns and shotguns
Category 3 = rifles and machineguns
Category 4 = rifles with armour-piercing ammunition, or anti-material fire.

If the weapon class > armour class, then the victim is treated as unarmoured, throw for wounding effect in that column. If weapon class <= armour class, the victim is treated as armoured, throw for wounding effect in the frag or bullet/knife column.

Wounds are of three types, basically triage categories of how soon they have to be treated: immediate, delayed or minor. Immediate may kill you, delayed usually incapacitates you, minor you can fight on with a malus. Any of them gets worse eventually if untreated.

If you're unarmoured and you're hit you always get one of the three, if you're armoured then the worst results are less likely and you may suffer no effect at all.

If you're hit, though, you always lose an action, even if it has no wounding effect.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 26, 2021, 12:58:51 AM
I've got distinctions simply based on how likely they are to penetrate armour. In the link, see the Wounding article. Basically: weapons are rated +1 to +4, and armour +0 (clothing) to +3 (modern gear with plates etc). Technically EOD gear would be AC+4 but nobody's fighting in that.

Category 1 = very light rifles, light pistols, and all melee weapons including fist, etc.
Category 2 = heavy pistols, submachineguns and shotguns
Category 3 = rifles and machineguns
Category 4 = rifles with armour-piercing ammunition, or anti-material fire.

If the weapon class > armour class, then the victim is treated as unarmoured, throw for wounding effect in that column. If weapon class <= armour class, the victim is treated as armoured, throw for wounding effect in the frag or bullet/knife column.

Wounds are of three types, basically triage categories of how soon they have to be treated: immediate, delayed or minor. Immediate may kill you, delayed usually incapacitates you, minor you can fight on with a malus. Any of them gets worse eventually if untreated.

If you're unarmoured and you're hit you always get one of the three, if you're armoured then the worst results are less likely and you may suffer no effect at all.

If you're hit, though, you always lose an action, even if it has no wounding effect.

I prefer more granularity in any sort of military/spy oriented game, but for rules-lite OSR type stuff this is excellent.

Looking at my own game, a 9mm is the "standard" with a damage value of 6, but lighter guns can go down to as low as 2, which is moderately better than punching someone, I guess.
.45s and magnums would go up to around 9 with only truly heavy pistols breaking into the double digits.

Double digits like the low 10s are for rifles and high tens for elephant guns. Once the gun hits the 20s, its more like a anti-material/monster rifle at that point.

Not gonna go into detail on what the numbers mean or how they are calculated but:
Pistol= you can take a few shots before dying even if unarmored.
Rifle= you can die from one shot if you're unlucky. Light armor ups the odds of only getting seriously injured
Elephant rifle =better hope you maxed out your armor
Anti-material= you maxing out your armor is the reason they brought this...

I will say, I kinda like how Palladium does damage tied to caliber, and not directly to the weapon.

And then we have games that either goes:
"If you buy a box of ammunition for This gun it can only be used in This gun and not That gun, despite them being very similar in range and damage. And just forget about that Other gun that have the exact same stats"
(How hard is it to say that This gun is a .38. That gun is 9mm and the Other gun is .40 anyway?)

On the Other side we have games where "All Light pistols use the light ammo and all medium pistols use medium pistol ammo"
Government mandated standardization, I guess.

Long lists of firearms with authentic names and fiddly stats make my eyes glaze over, but I do like a variety with meaningful differences.  Depends on genre, but I'd probably go with a list like this, and yes I do realize some of these are based off different ammunition rather than the weapon itself:

Sidearms - light (.22), medium(9mm), heavy(desert eagle)
Rifle - light(.22), heavy (elephant gun)
Shotgun - sawed-off, bird gun, heavy pellets, slug
SMG - light (Uzi), heavy (grease gun)
Sniper - light (antipersonnel), heavy (anti-LAV)
Assault weapon - carbine, rifle
Machine gun - medium (bipod), heavy (crew-served)

It depends on the game. Something lighthearted or less than serious, like Feng Shui? Probably not a big deal.

Twilight 2000 though... yeah, you're gonna wanna track every bullet you have.

I have to say, in 37 years of gaming, running out of ammo - bullets, arrows - has never really been a thing for me. I suppose it may have come up, but I don't recall. By the time we've fired 12 arrows the combat is over - the enemy are all dead or surrendered, or we are. And then we bugger off and resupply.

Perhaps I've just not had enough grand epic battles.

Magic, yeah, we've run out of that. But not mundane ammo.

Quote from: moonsweeperI prefer more granularity in any sort of military/spy oriented game, but for rules-lite OSR type stuff this is excellent.

This is a military/spy-oriented game. I just don't believe it's that significant. And I've had a lot of discussions about these rules with an emergency physician and a couple of paramedics, and a number of military guys I know - and none of them think it's that significant, either.

It's kind of like distinguishing between all the different kinds of small city car. If you're repairing them then the differences are important, that Toyota radiator won't fit in the Honda. If you're driving them around town they're not just not different enough to justify having different numbers.

That study of the cops and how many shots they fired - it just didn't mention calibre. If you're not wearing body armour it doesn't matter, really. Or rather, over like 10,000 people being hit there'll be clear statistical trends, sure. But the variation between calibres etc are going to be more than swamped by the variation of hit placement and victim build etc - as expressed in-game by the random variation of the dice.

Years ago I used to be witness to fervent online arguments about .45 vs 9mm. It made me want to shoot them with one of each. Just to compare.

It's like those splatbooks nobody uses. Pure fanservice.