Quote from: PsyXypher on October 31, 2021, 11:43:41 PMI don't think that last part is accurate (since I don't know how scopes would cause jamming) but I'll take your word for all the info you gave me.

It's going on the reports of the soldiers involved. I can easily see it - basically, each accessory is more shit to take care of. The more pieces you have the more things can go wrong, and while you're busy fiddling with one piece, something else goes wrong.

QuoteAnd I love rule of cool. Luckily TTRPGs aren't reality and rule of cool can be applied.

Exactly. If you want a game where everyone gets blinged up in all the Gucci gear, you can do that.

QuoteThe biggest problem I found with writing a system of gun mods is that 1, there's no good reason to NOT use mods, 2, how many mods can fit into one gun and how to determine that.

Just look at the real reasons. For those who are permitted to carry firearms daily, why don't they have silencers, scopes and lights on them all? Because that shit gets in the way, and the chances of it fucking up something basic and simple you want to do is much greater than the chances of it being useful. But games don't simulate that "gets in the way and fucks up" thing, so players will inevitably bling it up.

What you can do is give things relative or situational advantages. For example, rifles are more deadly, and are more likely to get through any body armour. So why don't all cops carry rifles? And why do soldiers sometimes carry pistols or SMGs?

Well, rifles will go through everything - but that can be a disadvantage when there are a lot of noncombatants around, and the chances of coming across a criminal with body armour are much, much lower than the chances of putting a round through drywall and taking out grandma living next door to the meth lab. So for the cops it's handguns or SMGs.

As for the soldiers, well rifles penetrate better, but SMGs and handguns are quicker to bring to bear, and don't take up as much space. So if you're out on the moors of the Falklands, okay rifles - but if you're going through a close jungle or urban area, you don't need something with an effective fire range of 600 metres. In Conflict I have put it as adjusting the chances when initiative (d6 vs d6 with some modifiers) is tied:

Ranged combat ties are resolved in favour of ascending order of weapon size, thus for example fist, then knife, then handgun, and finally longarms.
Melee and brawling combat [everything closer than 6m] ties are resolved in reverse order of weapon size.
In mixed combat, ranged fire wins initiative over 6m, and melee and brawling under 6m.

Thus, about 1 in 6 times your choice of weapon will matter, with longarms going before handguns and others at 6+m, and handguns before rifles at under 6m, and indeed the guy with the knife before the guy with the handgun - when close.

Of course, other things will matter, too - like rules of engagement. If you're not meant to fire unless fired upon, then whatever weapon you have, a combatant you only encounter at closer than 6m has a very good chance of acting first, achieving surprise. And he goes whack, whack, or stab, stab, or blam, blam - and well I hope your personal affairs are in order.

I am very sure that the main reason people don't use silencers with regularity is that there's an extreme amount of paperwork as well as a $200 stamp to get what is essentially a muffler for your gun. Otherwise they'd be a ton more popular.

Generally, I split guns into the following categories: Handguns, Rifles, Shotguns, Submachineguns, Launchers (stuff like Flamethrowers and Rocket Launchers) and Lasers. Rifles is by far the most extensive category as it involves most machine guns and stuff like Coilguns and Railguns.

Shotguns tend to deal wildly variably damage (2d20), while all the others deal damage in multiples of 1d6. Handguns are considered "Holdout" weapons, meaning they can be used in melee range without issue. Everything else, bar a few things like a Laser Pistol, can be knocked away if used in melee range.

Lasers deal more damage and use interchangeable batteries as ammunition (which has caused so many problems by its own) but basically lack any sort of armor piercing.

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 01, 2021, 12:23:45 AM
I am very sure that the main reason people don't use silencers with regularity is that there's an extreme amount of paperwork as well as a $200 stamp to get what is essentially a muffler for your gun.

Soldiers don't, either, including the special forces who commonly can pick and choose what they use - at least as a unit.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 01, 2021, 12:33:24 AM

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 01, 2021, 12:23:45 AM
I am very sure that the main reason people don't use silencers with regularity is that there's an extreme amount of paperwork as well as a $200 stamp to get what is essentially a muffler for your gun.

Soldiers don't, either, including the special forces who commonly can pick and choose what they use - at least as a unit.

Soldiers tend to be in a different boat than people who don't want to blow their ears out when defending against a home invasion. Civilians also don't usually have automatic weapons, but we can't say if that's by preference because for all intents and purposes, those are illegal for a civilian to have.

I just twisted around my setting and said anything less up to a rocket launcher is street legal, to avoid all this. It's more fun that way, IMO.

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 01, 2021, 02:03:23 AM
Soldiers tend to be in a different boat than people who don't want to blow their ears out when defending against a home invasion.

Yes. Civilians will fire a few rounds and then spend the next two years of their lives without a firearm and churning through the legal system. Soldiers will fire buckets of bullets, and end up with permanent partial hearing loss.

But they still don't bother with silencers.

It's like how in the 1980s in the movies every weapon had a laser on it. Because lasers are cool. Now? No, because it's this much clutter and shit to take care of, and this much use.

Now, if you want the players to be running around with lasers and scopes and silencers strapped to them, and bayonets on their pistols, put rules for it, go for it. But if it's based on reality?

Well... in reality:-
inexperienced people will have all sorts of useless junk,
experienced people will have whatever the brass issue them, and
special forces will have the absolute minimum, and all of that useful.

Quote from: PsyXypher on October 31, 2021, 06:40:59 PM
One thing I've never seen done too well with guns is gun modification. Scopes, stocks, underbarrel grenade launchers. I think it's because there's only so many different effects of weapon mods.

Also really hate that "Smartgun" crap that cyberpunk games tend to have. It strains my suspension of disbelief that the technology would become popular in a world overrun with criminals. There's a reason there's no significant push for smartguns from any gun owner.

Smartgun systems in cyberpunk genres are something entirely different from what they're pushing IRL.

In Cyberpunk and Shadowrun, a smartgun system consists of an integrated module that tracks your ammo and targeting, projecting it onto your field of vision (via eyewear or cybereyes). One player I know humorously refers to it as 'FPS-vision'.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 01, 2021, 12:14:20 AM
Just look at the real reasons. For those who are permitted to carry firearms daily, why don't they have silencers, scopes and lights on them all? Because that shit gets in the way, and the chances of it fucking up something basic and simple you want to do is much greater than the chances of it being useful. But games don't simulate that "gets in the way and fucks up" thing, so players will inevitably bling it up.

I found the same thing when researching various attachments. I didn't want to get too granular, so I came up with a pretty simple way to try to show that.

Basically in Space Dogs weapons are either light/normal/heavy - which affects how fast they are to draw and how much equipment space they take up. (A character 6 weapon slots total' a pair of light weapons take 1 slot, and heavy weapons take 2.) Each addition you add to a weapon increases the level by 1. So you add a bayonet or an underslung grenade launcher to an assault rifle? It becomes a heavy weapon. If you add a scope to a pistol? It goes from light to normal. And if you add them to weapons that are already heavy you start taking accuracy penalties.

It makes adding a single attachment to be situationally useful, but it's a bad idea to go crazy with it. And more often than not you're better off having no attachments.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 21, 2021, 11:55:39 AM
@Erik Diaz & Chris24601

Modifiers to hit : Untrained, Trained, Expert, range & RoF

Mofifiers to range: Calliber (not getting into 100's of guns/ammo) ex. Small, Medium, Large

Modifiers to Dmg: RoF, Calliber, Training & Range

Small guns are everything from .22 to .25, Medium .32 to .38s, Large .45 and up. Thinking of adding a "Magnum" type of gun, but it needs to be available to several callibers, so it would increase the price of the gun and ammo and the Dmg it does.

Might include "stingy" guns, this would be your derringer type guns with one or two shots before reloading.

Already did the research for the real range of all the firearms and bows, it's way larger than what you usually find on games that have modern firearms. What you usually find is ~1/10th of the real range and some times less than that (WTAFF!?).

The gun porn will maybe be an apendix.

This.  I would urge anyone who wants to use firearms in their games to go spend some time looking through Twilight:2000 forums. 

I've got the first 3 versions of the game and prefer the Twilight:2013 rules because they are "realistic" without being unwieldy (one of the designers shared the firearms building rules which are based on actual ballistics calculations - give me any firearm from a little pocket .25 to a .50 anti-material rifle and I can stat it up in the TW:2013 rules.  *Most* firearms have nearly the same stats if they have similar bullet mass and muzzle velocity - to the point that a generic "9mm handgun" and a "Glock 17L" and a "Browning HP-35" are going to essentially have the same stats. 

I also recommend their combat and damage rules.  No "100% effective anywhere from 100 down to 1 hp and then suddenly you shut down at 0 hp." Wound levels/locations that affect mental/physical abilities, shock, death due to blood loss are all in there and it's not unwieldy.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 01, 2021, 07:49:51 AM

Quote from: PsyXypher on October 31, 2021, 06:40:59 PM
One thing I've never seen done too well with guns is gun modification. Scopes, stocks, underbarrel grenade launchers. I think it's because there's only so many different effects of weapon mods.

Also really hate that "Smartgun" crap that cyberpunk games tend to have. It strains my suspension of disbelief that the technology would become popular in a world overrun with criminals. There's a reason there's no significant push for smartguns from any gun owner.

Smartgun systems in cyberpunk genres are something entirely different from what they're pushing IRL.

In Cyberpunk and Shadowrun, a smartgun system consists of an integrated module that tracks your ammo and targeting, projecting it onto your field of vision (via eyewear or cybereyes). One player I know humorously refers to it as 'FPS-vision'.

Everything I've heard about it was "Make sure your gun only fires when you want it to" which to me sounded like it would mess up at the worst possible time. If it doesn't effect the firing mechanism, that's completely different. Thanks.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on November 01, 2021, 09:51:00 AM
It makes adding a single attachment to be situationally useful, but it's a bad idea to go crazy with it. And more often than not you're better off having no attachments.

That's a neat solution, very good.

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 01, 2021, 06:06:19 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 01, 2021, 07:49:51 AM

Quote from: PsyXypher on October 31, 2021, 06:40:59 PM
One thing I've never seen done too well with guns is gun modification. Scopes, stocks, underbarrel grenade launchers. I think it's because there's only so many different effects of weapon mods.

Also really hate that "Smartgun" crap that cyberpunk games tend to have. It strains my suspension of disbelief that the technology would become popular in a world overrun with criminals. There's a reason there's no significant push for smartguns from any gun owner.

Smartgun systems in cyberpunk genres are something entirely different from what they're pushing IRL.

In Cyberpunk and Shadowrun, a smartgun system consists of an integrated module that tracks your ammo and targeting, projecting it onto your field of vision (via eyewear or cybereyes). One player I know humorously refers to it as 'FPS-vision'.

Everything I've heard about it was "Make sure your gun only fires when you want it to" which to me sounded like it would mess up at the worst possible time. If it doesn't effect the firing mechanism, that's completely different. Thanks.

I have commented myself on the irony of a half-assed biometric lockout system (which, I might add, has not been successfully sold to police yet -- which should tell you a lot) being called the same thing as the fictional system which effectively makes you a better shooter in most cyberpunk-genre RPGs.

I dunno about the Cyberpunk systems, but 'advanced safety' was an option in SR4 onward and acted like the aforementioned biometric system.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:27:35 PM
What the tin says, how granular would you make/like/prefer your gun tables?

Pistol
Rifle
Shotgun
Machinegun

And what their best combat range use is (rifles probably don't work well in personal range combat), along with what their maximum shooting range is.

Using a particular weapon is just a skill roll, rolling equal or over a difficulty number to succeed in hitting a target.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on November 01, 2021, 11:22:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:27:35 PM
What the tin says, how granular would you make/like/prefer your gun tables?

Pistol
Rifle
Shotgun
Machinegun

And what their best combat range use is (rifles probably don't work well in personal range combat), along with what their maximum shooting range is.

Using a particular weapon is just a skill roll, rolling equal or over a difficulty number to succeed in hitting a target.

Too broad.  A .25 pocket pistol and a .44 Magnum have vastly different effective ranges.  Likewise an M4 is not taking out targets at a half-mile like a dedicated sniper rifle in the hands of a skilled marksman.

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 02, 2021, 06:54:40 AM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on November 01, 2021, 11:22:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:27:35 PM
What the tin says, how granular would you make/like/prefer your gun tables?

Pistol
Rifle
Shotgun
Machinegun

And what their best combat range use is (rifles probably don't work well in personal range combat), along with what their maximum shooting range is.

Using a particular weapon is just a skill roll, rolling equal or over a difficulty number to succeed in hitting a target.

Too broad.  A .25 pocket pistol and a .44 Magnum have vastly different effective ranges.  Likewise an M4 is not taking out targets at a half-mile like a dedicated sniper rifle in the hands of a skilled marksman.

I'm using:

Small Arms:
Assault Rifle
Chain Gun
Hand cannon
Heavy Machine-Gun
Hold-Out Pistol
Large Bore Rifle
Machine Pistol
Pistol
Rifle
Shotgun
Sniper Rifle
Target Pistol

Specialty:
AA (Anti-Aircraft) Launcher
AM (Anti-Mecha) Rifle
Flamethrower
Grenade Launcher
Rocket Launcher


I feel like I could cut a few, but they all play pretty differently - in large part due to different weapons using different attack dice. (Ex: Assault Rifle: 2d10 / Pistol: 2d8 / Shotgun: 4d6 / Rocket Launcher: 2d6 - all with different range penalties & Brawn requirements.)

And I definitely don't want to go full-on gun porn like a lot of 90s cyberpunk games seemed to.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on November 02, 2021, 09:46:27 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 02, 2021, 06:54:40 AM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on November 01, 2021, 11:22:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:27:35 PM
What the tin says, how granular would you make/like/prefer your gun tables?

Pistol
Rifle
Shotgun
Machinegun

And what their best combat range use is (rifles probably don't work well in personal range combat), along with what their maximum shooting range is.

Using a particular weapon is just a skill roll, rolling equal or over a difficulty number to succeed in hitting a target.

Too broad.  A .25 pocket pistol and a .44 Magnum have vastly different effective ranges.  Likewise an M4 is not taking out targets at a half-mile like a dedicated sniper rifle in the hands of a skilled marksman.

I'm using:

Small Arms:
Assault Rifle
Chain Gun
Hand cannon
Heavy Machine-Gun
Hold-Out Pistol
Large Bore Rifle
Machine Pistol
Pistol
Rifle
Shotgun
Sniper Rifle
Target Pistol

Specialty:
AA (Anti-Aircraft) Launcher
AM (Anti-Mecha) Rifle
Flamethrower
Grenade Launcher
Rocket Launcher


I feel like I could cut a few, but they all play pretty differently - in large part due to different weapons using different attack dice. (Ex: Assault Rifle: 2d10 / Pistol: 2d8 / Shotgun: 4d6 / Rocket Launcher: 2d6 - all with different range penalties.)

And I definitely don't want to go full-on gun porn like a lot of 90s cyberpunk games seemed to.

>small arms
>chain gun
>heavy machine gun

Yeah, I'm not sure that works.

I'd use:

Small Arms:
Light pistol
Heavy pistol
SMG
Rifle and Shotgun

Support Arms:
Machine Gun (SAW, LMG)
Grenade Launcher
Chemical Projector (flamethrower or other weirdness)
Heavy Launcher (covers man portable or semi-portable missile weapons)

Gunnery can cover vehicle-mounted or heavier weapons.