I rather like the idea of cyberpunk as cool people with command of technology - basically as opposed to to the kinda Boffin or Back Room Boy or Former Nazi Rocket Scientist image of the scientist/engineer.

I'm a criminally minded bohemian with a computer and all that.

Quoteliving the thug life and festooning oneself with magical bling.

Quote from: BalbinusCool.

I thought we were saying the same thing in different words

Quote from: BalbinusFrankly, something as simple as having in the cyberwear/tech section of a game book a brief two liner on the societal impact of each piece would make a difference.  Also, some serious thought on how these people are viewed by the various groups in society.

Cyberpunk 2020 tended to gloss over that stuff, but it's where the intersection of cool toys and meaningful play occurs.

I agree entirely.  Just throwing some ideas out here:

All things being equal skill level also indicates the level of technology that the character has access to.  A professional assassin would own a top-of-the-range sniper rifle; a wanabee runner would use a deck he got in Radio Shack

A pistol is a pistol is a pistol (ok, so there are also heavy pistols and hold-out pistols, but you get the general idea).  In other words all weapons of the same class have the same game statistics.  However branding is really important (I'd suggest that this is one of the features of the genre).  This means that there would be a list of suggested brand names for each level of skill.  The Street Samurai would use an "Ares Predator II" (or whatever) while his less experienced team-mate would use a cheap Eastern European knock-off of the same gun.  This means that, when the gun-fondler puts the Firearm skill of his character up a point they get the option of rubbing out it's brand name on their character sheet and choosing a cooler one.  This should go some way to satisfying their need for cool-sounding toys

Quote from: Hastur T. Fannon
A pistol is a pistol is a pistol (ok, so there are also heavy pistols and hold-out pistols, but you get the general idea).  In other words all weapons of the same class have the same game statistics.  However branding is really important (I'd suggest that this is one of the features of the genre).  This means that there would be a list of suggested brand names for each level of skill.  The Street Samurai would use an "Ares Predator II" (or whatever) while his less experienced team-mate would use a cheap Eastern European knock-off of the same gun.  This means that, when the gun-fondler puts the Firearm skill of his character up a point they get the option of rubbing out it's brand name on their character sheet and choosing a cooler one.  This should go some way to satisfying their need for cool-sounding toys

Sounds like you want to but the Hardwired supplement which IIRC has pretty much this idea. No long list of guns, just big, small etc and suggestions for names

Quote from: BalbinusHow would you do cyberpunk?  Not necessarily mechanically, though that too if you have thoughts on it, but if you were looking to run or play in one what would you see as the key elements?

  It depends upon what you're asking me...

  Over the past week or so I've kind of reached the conclusion that roleplaying is so tightly conceptually tied to fantasy through the desire for immersion that, in truth, roleplaying as a medium will struggle when asked to do anything else.  Whether it's SF, Pulp or Cyberpunk I think that roleplaying is chiefly in the business of doing pastiches of other genres through the lens of fantasy.

  (though weirdly, I don't think that D&D does fantasy immersion anymore, I think it's a boardgame where the onus isn't on immersion but on tactical skill)

  If you're asking me mechanically then, as I said further up, I'd strip out all the technoporn completely and make it as rules light as possible.  If you're going to emulate a genre that's all about mood then rules you have to think about just won't serve any purpose.

  As for the content of the cyberpunk I seriously would set it now.  A noir technothriller set in the modern day would be functionally identical to cyberpunk.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonHowever branding is really important (I'd suggest that this is one of the features of the genre).  This means that there would be a list of suggested brand names for each level of skill.

  I completely disagree.  The plothammering piece of tech in Neuromancer is an unbranded piece of Chinese military ice.  The focus on brand names is a construction of the RPG hobby so as to replace talk of "+3/+6 Firebrand Bastard swords" with talk of an "Ares predator with a laser sight and military-grade recoil reduction software".

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalOver the past week or so I've kind of reached the conclusion that roleplaying is so tightly conceptually tied to fantasy through the desire for immersion that, in truth, roleplaying as a medium will struggle when asked to do anything else.  

That is so wrong it goes beyond wrong and into some alternate dimension where it's still wrong.

Quote from: StumpydaveThat is so wrong it goes beyond wrong and into some alternate dimension where it's still wrong.

  I over stated it partly in the hope of making everyone gasp but I do think there's some truth in it as there is in the idea that there are some things that really shouldn't be gamed.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt depends upon what you're asking me...

  Over the past week or so I've kind of reached the conclusion that roleplaying is so tightly conceptually tied to fantasy through the desire for immersion that, in truth, roleplaying as a medium will struggle when asked to do anything else.  Whether it's SF, Pulp or Cyberpunk I think that roleplaying is chiefly in the business of doing pastiches of other genres through the lens of fantasy.

Seems odd, how does that relate to your Te Deum game say?  I'm not sure I would see that as a genre pastiche through a fantasy lens, there was nothing particularly fantasy-esque in it and I would struggle to name a genre (historical fiction maybe?).

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI over stated it partly in the hope of making everyone gasp but I do think there's some truth in it as there is in the idea that there are some things that really shouldn't be gamed.

Like Hentai you mean?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI over stated it partly in the hope of making everyone gasp but I do think there's some truth in it as there is in the idea that there are some things that really shouldn't be gamed.

There are a couple of things tied to roleplaying in a group, in person, but I'm not certain that I can agree with Fantasy being one of them.

However, different concepts in literature require different concepts in roleplaying and rules. Neuromancer or Ghost in the Shell seem fairly similar in a lot of ways to me, but they're certainly no D&D. 'And then', I thought, 'very little is.' So I don't know.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI over stated it partly in the hope of making everyone gasp but I do think there's some truth in it as there is in the idea that there are some things that really shouldn't be gamed.

Are you saying anything more than "bad movies make good games", or perhaps an observation you made on an earlier thread (I forget which) tha RPGs don't do introspection? Not having a go, just curious if there's something more.

I mean, it's obviously much easier to do D&D with cyberwear than a game that captures some of the subtler currents of cyberpunk fiction, but is there something else that renders it impossible?

On a more general note, I'm beginning to wonder if cyberpunk as a literary movement really exists as anything more than a bunch of writers of similar vintage who were all pissed off with Number of the Beast and Foundation's Edge.

Ned

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI completely disagree.  The plothammering piece of tech in Neuromancer is an unbranded piece of Chinese military ice.  The focus on brand names is a construction of the RPG hobby so as to replace talk of "+3/+6 Firebrand Bastard swords" with talk of an "Ares predator with a laser sight and military-grade recoil reduction software".

 I see it the other way. 'Illegal', 'Chinese' and 'Military' are all brands and more unique than say an Ares Mark 4 Icebreaker which anyone might be able to purchase. For Armitage to have access to that tells people he has got some heavy shit behind him and an investment in getting the job done.

It was the secrecy of the run that prohibited showing off the tech not its anonymity.

Quote from: BalbinusSeems odd, how does that relate to your Te Deum game say?  I'm not sure I would see that as a genre pastiche through a fantasy lens, there was nothing particularly fantasy-esque in it and I would struggle to name a genre (historical fiction maybe?).

  Te Deum's an interesting case in point because the game is about history.  In researching it I went off and read books about the period that talked about the economics and the social dynamics and the political situation and I tried to make a game about those things.  Whether I was successful or not is another issue.

  If you look at the Te Deum game as written and as supported in their published adventures it's all about whose camp you're in and what types of clothing you wear, the actual stuff that drives history isn't really present... just the stuff that fills it... a bit like the difference between my view of cyberpunk and Hastur's.  Things.

  Te Deum was my attempt to produce an RPG that was about ideas, which is kind of why the whole plot with the bloke trying to set people against you got slightly less than equal time than just doing the kind of stuff that nobles and their staff did in their days.

  I'm not totally sure that that came across because it's difficult to control what people engage with.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalTe Deum's an interesting case in point because the game is about history.  In researching it I went off and read books about the period that talked about the economics and the social dynamics and the political situation and I tried to make a game about those things.  Whether I was successful or not is another issue.

  If you look at the Te Deum game as written and as supported in their published adventures it's all about whose camp you're in and what types of clothing you wear, the actual stuff that drives history isn't really present... just the stuff that fills it... a bit like the difference between my view of cyberpunk and Hastur's.  Things.

  Te Deum was my attempt to produce an RPG that was about ideas, which is kind of why the whole plot with the bloke trying to set people against you got slightly less than equal time than just doing the kind of stuff that nobles and their staff did in their days.

  I'm not totally sure that that came across because it's difficult to control what people engage with.

Gamers like doing more than being as a rule, but actually we spent a lot of time on pure contextual stuff.  The party, in which for example Dan spent a fair while engaged with things like the way he interacted with the actors, none of which advanced the plot at all - it was as the Forge would put it mere colour.

Plot I see as something to maintain pace when colour fades, as it will from time to time, but the colour is where the fun is.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyI mean, it's obviously much easier to do D&D with cyberwear than a game that captures some of the subtler currents of cyberpunk fiction, but is there something else that renders it impossible?

  I think what I'm trying to say is that it's not easy to sit down and write an adventure that's about exploring an idea, whether it's a home truth about the human condition or some aspect of the works of Faulkner.  You couldn't for example, do an RPG version of the Singing Detective.

  What informed my piece of agitprop further up is that fact that RPGs do immersion quite well.  They're all about putting yourself in the place of a certain kind of character and getting to do what they do.  The problem is that there's a lot of writing that isn't really about immersion or identification or anything like that.  I think this partly explains why good SF games are so thin on the ground, RPGs can do "you're the commander of a starship, what do you do?" but it can't do "no matter how advanced the human race becomes, it will never escape its weaknesses".

  As examples of this there's Vampire which said to be all about the duality of man and the best within but was, in fact, about killing people with kewl powerz.  Then there's Cthulhu... great game but as much as we'd like it to be about the cold and unforgiving and utterly alien nature of the universe, it's ultimately about solving puzzles and killing cultists.  That's why D20 Cthulhu works SO well... it's not so much a reinvention of the game as a "welcome home" party.

  However, I say this but it could equally be just me moaning about not knowing how to write subtext.