The mention of Pathfinder's imminent 'bloat' brought to mind something I've often wondered: why does every edition of D&D seem to undergo system drift and bloat when lots of other games don't? The whole BRP family of games are pretty close to the same and none have moved much from Runequest ca. 1978. You could say the same for GURPs, which has editions but they are pretty much the same game, and no edition really bloated when it comes to systems mechanics. I wonder if there is something structural about the way D&D works that drives system metastasis.

Quote from: Larsdangly;747036The mention of Pathfinder's imminent 'bloat' brought to mind something I've often wondered: why does every edition of D&D seem to undergo system drift and bloat when lots of other games don't? The whole BRP family of games are pretty close to the same and none have moved much from Runequest ca. 1978. You could say the same for GURPs, which has editions but they are pretty much the same game, and no edition really bloated when it comes to systems mechanics. I wonder if there is something structural about the way D&D works that drives system metastasis.

I think "Inc." is the problem more than the game system. Are those other systems you mentioned seen as cash cows that have to keep generating profits for a corporation (whether TSR, Inc. or Hasbro, Inc.)?

Quote from: Larsdangly;747036The mention of Pathfinder's imminent 'bloat' brought to mind something I've often wondered: why does every edition of D&D seem to undergo system drift and bloat when lots of other games don't? The whole BRP family of games are pretty close to the same and none have moved much from Runequest ca. 1978. You could say the same for GURPs, which has editions but they are pretty much the same game, and no edition really bloated when it comes to systems mechanics. I wonder if there is something structural about the way D&D works that drives system metastasis.

Although I am not sure that would be the prime reason of rules bloat, yes there are structural matters in the system that push it to go there.
The game presents limits as it gives very specific themed options of what players can do. And thus it gives a lot of space for more and more options to cover for it.

Quote from: Larsdangly;747036The mention of Pathfinder's imminent 'bloat' brought to mind something I've often wondered: why does every edition of D&D seem to undergo system drift and bloat when lots of other games don't? The whole BRP family of games are pretty close to the same and none have moved much from Runequest ca. 1978. You could say the same for GURPs, which has editions but they are pretty much the same game, and no edition really bloated when it comes to systems mechanics. I wonder if there is something structural about the way D&D works that drives system metastasis.

Lots and lots of other games undergo drift and bloat, even if the rules don't change.  A fan of Champions, from 1980, would drown in the number of "supplements" for Champions 4e.  Or 5e.

GURPS?  Don't get me started.

As systems become more popular gamers want more options and more people (designers) to tell them it's OK to play Mechwarrior with Hero System or Call of Cthulhu with GURPS or a 17th-century pirate game with D&D.  Games with tiny (by comparison) fan-bases who play just the core game, and rarely, don't get that kind of churn because they don't buy the game to support that kind of staff and output on behalf of the mfg.  I mean no disrespect; I love Twilight:2000 1e, but there's not exactly a Pathfinder level of stuff for it (actual supplemental rules are The Last Battle, for large scale conflicts and some stuff for air-to-air and air-to-ground combat), otherwise it's modules and a US sourcebook.  Mekton-II is a beautiful love letter to the giant robot combat genre, and I can count on one hand the amount of "stuff" that came out for it and have fingers left over - and I knew exactly nobody who ever played it.

When your player base is huge and has [strike]huge guts![/strike] and has widespread tastes and wants, there's a call for ways to fill that niche.  D&D had players who wanted arabian nights kind of stuff, so Al Qadim came along.  People wanted more of the gothic horror in I6, so Ravenloft got its own whole thing.  People wanted D&D-meets-mad-max so Dark Sun, and on and on.

I mean, likewise, look at D&D's chief foe in the 90s, Vampire.  That whole game system invented the term "splatbook".

Quote from: bryce0lynch;746989The Origins event list is out.

There is 1 BASIC D&D game.
There are about 23 1st ed games.
There are 7 3.5 games.
There are 4 4e games.
There are 206 Pathfinder games.

Maybe it's my browser, but I don't see any events listed on Origins' web site.  Do you have another link somewhere that has the breakdown?

Quote from: bryce0lynch;746989The Origins event list is out.

There is 1 BASIC D&D game.
There are about 23 1st ed games.
There are 7 3.5 games.
There are 4 4e games.
There are 206 Pathfinder games.

So, all editions of D&D combined are inconsequential compared to Pathfinder?  And B/X, BECMI, and AD&D 2e are all abject failures which no one plays?

Ok, if that's what you want to say.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;747041Mekton-II is a beautiful love letter to the giant robot combat genre, and I can count on one hand the amount of "stuff" that came out for it and have fingers left over

Mekton II did have at least five:

Mekton II
Roadstriker II
Mekton Empire
Mekton Techbook
Mekton: Operation Rimfire

And two more if you want to count:

Jovian Chronicles
Europa Incident

::end nitpick::

Pathfinder is centred around backwards compatibility, so I suspect a 2nd ed will be (a) slow in coming and (b) look much like 2e AD&D, or 3.5 D&D, initially little more than a clean up & tweak of the core rulebook that leaves all the splats still useable.

I can't really see 5e challenging PF for dominance, short of Lisa Stevens falling under a bus (James Jacobs is talented, but not wise - he says a lot of silly things, whereas Stevens never puts a foot wrong that I can tell. Erik Mona seems with-it, Vic Wertz seems a safe pair of hands). 5e will make some initial spike sales on brand strength, but longer term I'm not even sure they can beat the Pathfinder Beginner Box as an intro game, never mind beat full PF for the gearhead hobbyist market.

Quote from: Marleycat;747017I think you're partially correct because Pathfinder has a lock on the 3E market but 5E isn't really looking to directly compete with that segment anyway. I think they're trying to grow the market and aim for lasped gamers and gamers looking for something a little less daunting than Pathfinder. More like 2E modernized and supported in a way the OSRIC crowd can't do.

Pretty much. WotC have recognized if they want a game with any sort of wide appeal (and casual gamers can be lapsed 42 year old D&D players with families, or brand new 20 year old players), it has to play fast and be about the story in the game world, not the system-crunch on the character sheet.

Quote from: S'mon;747054I can't really see 5e challenging PF for dominance, short of Lisa Stevens falling under a bus (James Jacobs is talented, but not wise - he says a lot of silly things, whereas Stevens never puts a foot wrong that I can tell. Erik Mona seems with-it, Vic Wertz seems a safe pair of hands). 5e will make some initial spike sales on brand strength, but longer term I'm not even sure they can beat the Pathfinder Beginner Box as an intro game, never mind beat full PF for the gearhead hobbyist market.

Pathfinder is way too difficult to DM and intimidating to new players to really draw new blood into the hobby. The Pathfinder Beginner Box is crippleware that is sold under the premise that everyone who plays it will want to move on to full-blown Pathfinder. WotC is betting that the casual audience for RPGs is a more attractive market than the gearhead hobbyists.

If 5E really does flop and Pathfinder remains the top dog in the RPG world, I expect the hobby will go the way of hex and counter wargames and shrink to a niche market of ultra-hardcore hobbyists.

Quote from: Haffrung;747073The Pathfinder Beginner Box is crippleware that is sold under the premise that everyone who plays it will want to move on to full-blown Pathfinder.

If that box is "crippleware", then I wonder what the boxed sets WotC have put out in the last twenty years are called.

Quote from: Marleycat;747011When they stopped producing 4E 2 years ago. Once 5E is out then tell me the numbers. My guess is Pathfinder will be thinking of Pathfinder 2.0 by then.

Interesting thought

Quote from: Benoist;746990D&D Next is imminent. It's just a matter of time, now, and the RPGA will follow.

As far as I can see, the rpga is dead.  Around here anyway...

Quote from: Gabriel2;747053Mekton II did have at least five:

Mekton II
Roadstriker II
Mekton Empire
Mekton Techbook
Mekton: Operation Rimfire

And two more if you want to count:

Jovian Chronicles
Europa Incident

::end nitpick::

I forgot about Empire, and was really only considering what the RTal put out themselves...but, yeah.

Quote from: Endless Flight;747084If that box is "crippleware", then I wonder what the boxed sets WotC have put out in the last twenty years are called.

I heartily endorse that Pathfinder beginner box. Yes, it's not the "full game", but there's tons of play value and pure fun in it.

Wow. maybe I should attend Origins this year and run a few 0D&D pickup games. It's only an hours drive...