Finally, I can sit down with a coffee and review this complete post. Thanks again for your time Lunamancer.

I re-read it, and I have some follow up questions:

Quote from: Lunamancer;1078651That covers step 1. Once the physical ring is created, then it must be enchanted. This is where powers are activated on the ring. The following Enchantment powers are required for making an Extraordinary object:
1. Amalgamate Vegetable Energies
2. Bestow Animal Energies
3. Combine Mineral Energies
4. Imbue with Extraordinary Power Capacity
5. Imbue With Spirit Entity
6. Implant Power Node
7. Renewing Extraordinary Energization

For this item specifically, there are no animal of vegetable components, so #1 and #2 are not needed. #3 is. Since this item does not store Extraordinary Powers (spells) #4 is not needed. Since it won't contain a spirit, #5 is not necessary. Since it won't store AEPs, #6 is not needed. And since it will not have charges or need to recharge, #7 is not needed. So of those 7 powers, only #3 is necessary. A check will be required to activate this power as would for any power. However, the second check, the one with the penalty mentioned in the power description in LR4AP, that will wait until after the ring is enchanted by those powers most closely resembling the item's final function.

So, these 3 powers (Amalgamate Vegetable Energies, Bestow Animal Energies, Combine Mineral Energies) affect only 1 pint / 1 pound of material. For the ring, one successful cast should be enough.

My confusion starts here:

Imbue with extraordinary Power Capacity (p79): Strong, VII:  Allows to hold additional power. Does not explain what means by additional (1 or more).  It lasts only 1 day. To my understanding, this is the activation that allows holding extraordinary powers. (This reminds me AD&D 2nd, btw).

Implant Power Node (p79): Strong, VII: Holds a power permanently. It requires a second check at the end. Of course, at this point we need 2 second-check at the end... which is confusing

Renewing Extraordinary Energization (p90): Strong, VII: The object can work more than once. Requires "Implant Power Node." This might not be required.

QuoteThe closest power in my estimation is Personal Armor 1-5/Personal Shielding 1-5. I adjudicate as follows. Personal Armor 1 provides 1 AP to the ring, Personal Armor 2 provides 2, and so on. Personal Shielding 1 provides 6, personal Shielding 2 provides 7, and so on. Whichever power is chosen, it must be successfully activated once per opponent the ring will defend against. 5 times if the ring will defend against all. So to continue with my example of the Good grade Shielding Ring, it requires Personal Armor 5 be activated successfully 3 times.

This section is really interesting way to solve it.

QuoteOnce that is done, THEN the second check from Combine Mineral Energies is made. Since this is a Good grade item (Grade V), the activator will have to succeed in an enchantment check with a -25 penalty. If this results in failure, you may go back and attempt Combine Mineral Energies again, and once again activate Personal Armor 5 three times, provided you have enough AEPs left to do so.

This is where we might need a second, second-check (:confused:) for Implant Power Node.

QuoteOnce all the casting is done, then the infusement check is made. This is the one I'd previously been referring to as Step 2. I suppose I should have called it Step 3. But this is the one that is made at 10% of Metallurgy plus 5% Enchantment, 5% Learning, and 5% Evaluation. Note, a failure on this one botches the entire thing. But if it succeeds, you've done it!!

This might be me and my english as second language, but on this part what it means is 10% of Metallurgy skill plus 5% (Enchantment, Learning, Evaluation and Mechanics): That 5% is from the skill, or is a set 5%? For example if you have 50% learning, do you ad 2.5% or 5% to the roll?

As an additional comment, create an activation is much easier than create an extraordinary object. Not a complaint. On the contrary, I think is by design.

QuoteRustic would be analogous to Mechanics in my above example. It's not going to be used in the casting or in the infusing. But it is used in preparing the herbs, oinments, ambrosia, etc to be enchanted.

Makes perfect sense. No need to include it in the cration roll. Thank you

This is what I think of the whole create an extraordinary object:

If you are doing only a preternatural weapon, with additional damage, or armor with extra protection, you just need "Combine Mineral Energies."
But if this is a ring that emulates a protection spells, you would need the additional activations:

"Imbue with extraordinary Power Capacity" -> hold that power (one day)
"Implant Power Node" -> hold that power (permanently)
"Renewing Extraordinary Energization" -> To use that power more than once. How many times? I see the LML has several variations on this rule

Some swords have a permanent effect of fire damage, while some other objects can create effects once every 24 hrs or 7 days.
Having 2 second checks and how to limit the time of the uses (or how to determine the number of charges), Is part of the challenge. What do you think?

Quote from: Rithuan;1079995So, these 3 powers (Amalgamate Vegetable Energies, Bestow Animal Energies, Combine Mineral Energies) affect only 1 pint / 1 pound of material. For the ring, one successful cast should be enough.

That is correct, and since the ring is only mineral composition, it only requires that one, not the other two.

QuoteImbue with extraordinary Power Capacity (p79): Strong, VII:  Allows to hold additional power. Does not explain what means by additional (1 or more).  It lasts only 1 day. To my understanding, this is the activation that allows holding extraordinary powers. (This reminds me AD&D 2nd, btw).

1 or more. One activation is sufficient. Then you have a 24 hour window (1 day) to place as many additional powers into it as you can. A couple months ago, my Mage Avatar acquired a Preternatural Wand that contained 5 powers. So to create that wand, you'd have to use Imbue with Extraordinary Power Capacity, then successfully activate the 5 powers within the 24 hour time frame--that limits how much you can rest up to recover AEPs to retry or to load on additional powers.

QuoteImplant Power Node (p79): Strong, VII: Holds a power permanently. It requires a second check at the end. Of course, at this point we need 2 second-check at the end... which is confusing

The wand I found didn't need this power because the powers the wand holds vanish once used. The wand then needs to be re-loaded by activating the 5 powers into the wand, presumably during down time. If I don't have the activation, I can't reload the power. It kind of works like spell memorization in D&D. So Impland Power Node would be needed if you wanted to create a wand where the powers don't disappear and have their own AEP supply within the wand. This would make it similar to the wands in D&D, where they have a limited number of charges, and when they run out the wand needs to be re-charged.

QuoteRenewing Extraordinary Energization (p90): Strong, VII: The object can work more than once. Requires "Implant Power Node." This might not be required.

A lot of the items that require charges in Lejendary Adventure re-charge themselves. This power is required to create items like that. My Avatar also has a Wand of Shooting Stars, this has 7 charges which renew daily. This power was needed to create that wand.

QuoteThis section is really interesting way to solve it.

That part is not necessarily in the rules. It's where the Lejend Master must use judgment.  There's nothing in the rules saying Personal Armor or Personal Shielding is required to make a shielding ring. I like this sort of idea because  different Mages will be able to create different items depending upon which powers they know. In this case, it's usually going to take more powerful mages to create the more powerful items due to failed checks and AEP limitation.

QuoteThis is where we might need a second, second-check (:confused:) for Implant Power Node.

It's just one second-check. The reason it has to come later in the example I used is because we have to know what Grade the item will be to know what the penalty on the second check will be. It might be that I set out to make a Good grade ring but botched a lot of the personal armor V rolls, and so it defends against fewer opponents making it a lower grade. That would mean a lesser penalty here. Another point in delaying the second check until this point is, if the second check fails, it means having to recast all those Personal Armors again. The prudent mage thus will not make the most powerful items they can possibly muster. They will be more humble in their endeavors. If this check fails, they have enough AEPs to give it another try.

QuoteThis might be me and my english as second language, but on this part what it means is 10% of Metallurgy skill plus 5% (Enchantment, Learning, Evaluation and Mechanics): That 5% is from the skill, or is a set 5%? For example if you have 50% learning, do you ad 2.5% or 5% to the roll?

2.5%. I should note, LA does not instruct you what to do with fractional points. I usually just round down. Some generous LMs might round up. Others might keep all fractions, rounding only after they are totaled. And I've even heard of a few LMs who keep the fraction as well and roll an extra d10 to dice it.

QuoteIf you are doing only a preternatural weapon, with additional damage, or armor with extra protection, you just need "Combine Mineral Energies."
But if this is a ring that emulates a protection spells, you would need the additional activations:

That is entirely up to the LM. I require the additional activations to make it more difficult and to differentiate Joe the Mage from Fred the Mage in that, if they know different powers, they can create different items. I would probably require activations of Acuity and Strength to create an extraordinary weapon, with additional AEP investment to match Precision and Harm bonuses the Avatar hopes to achieve. For the lowest grade preternatural weapons, a mere Weapon Wizard might suffice. Alternatively, you might also simply require multiple Weapon Wizard activations rather than Acuity and/or Strength. It's entirely up to the LM.

Quote"Imbue with extraordinary Power Capacity" -> hold that power (one day)
"Implant Power Node" -> hold that power (permanently)
"Renewing Extraordinary Energization" -> To use that power more than once. How many times? I see the LML has several variations on this rule

Some swords have a permanent effect of fire damage, while some other objects can create effects once every 24 hrs or 7 days.

A flame sword immediately springs to mind the Geourgy power Unquenchable Flambeau. That one is spot on. So I might require Geourgy Ability to create a flame sword. If so done, it would not require any of those three powers. It would merely be an extra step in the process of making an extraordinary sword (see my immediate preceding comment on hos this is left entirely up to the LM).

As to how often an item created with Renewing Extraordinary Energization self-charges, I generally assume items being crafted will be one of the ones found in Lejend Masters Lore, and so whatever is listed there is what I go with. If the activator is doing something different, I look for the most similar item. If there's nothing similar, I consider three things. What is appropriate for the game? I don't want it to be useless, but also don't want it to be world-breaking. Somewhere within that range, then, I'm asking what is most thematically appropriate for the item? And what is appropriate for the item Grade? If I find there are multiple appropriate answers, I might tweak the process of creating it, adding power requirements, so more powerful mages can create a version that regenerates more quickly (and/or holds more charges in the first place), while lesser mages create lesser versions of the item.

As always, an interesting post.
With these 3 examples, I guess my problem remains how to rule specific steps and conciliate others spells.

Without "Implant Power Node," I would consider that the "Preternatural Wand that contained 5 powers" would lose their powers after 24 hrs. With the "Implant Power Node," it could retain the powers permanently. With "Renewing Extraordinary Energization" it could regain the powers after some days or hours.
Of course, this open unanswered questions for me as well (I don't have this figure out):

1.- For a "Preternatural Wand that contained 5 powers", how do you rule how many powers can hold? "Imbue with Extraordinary Power Capacity" does not specify how many can be stored.
2.- For the "Wand of Shooting Stars, this has 7 charges" that renew daily. If you use Renewing "Extraordinary Energization," How do you rule if it takes 7 days per charge or 24hrs per charge?

I guess point one and two will be in the hands of the Lejend Master. From that point, I completely agree with your assessment. This excerpt is gold:

QuoteAs to how often an item created with Renewing Extraordinary Energization self-charges, I generally assume items being crafted will be one of the ones found in Lejend Masters Lore, and so whatever is listed there is what I go with. If the activator is doing something different, I look for the most similar item. If there's nothing similar, I consider three things. What is appropriate for the game? I don't want it to be useless, but also don't want it to be world-breaking. Somewhere within that range, then, I'm asking what is most thematically appropriate for the item? And what is appropriate for the item Grade? If I find there are multiple appropriate answers, I might tweak the process of creating it, adding power requirements, so more powerful mages can create a version that regenerates more quickly (and/or holds more charges in the first place), while lesser mages create lesser versions of the item.

The gears in my head are still working on this, but in the meantime, I have a follow-up question. You mentioned in this thread that you favor the creation of temporary extraordinary objects. What rules do you apply? I'm interested in alchemia and the Alchemist Order depicted in Lejends magazine.

I have reviewed some of the one-use items in the LML, and there are several interesting objects that could be replicated by an Alchemist.
Flashy Performance Sphere LML p57 (potions for boost stats)
Preternatural Fungi LMLp58
Garage's Eggs LML p59 (bombs)
Hand Ammunition Crystals, LML p62

Quote from: Rithuan;1080824Preternatural Fungi

That is so going to be the name of a band I start.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1081022That is so going to be the name of a band I start.

LOL. Indeed the names in this game are out of this world.

Quote from: Rithuan;1080824Without "Implant Power Node," I would consider that the "Preternatural Wand that contained 5 powers" would lose their powers after 24 hrs. With the "Implant Power Node," it could retain the powers permanently. With "Renewing Extraordinary Energization" it could regain the powers after some days or hours.

Here is the description of Imbue With Extraordinary Power Capacity,

"This is a supernatural Power necessary for the use of Metallurgy and/or Alchemia Ability when creating an Extraordinary item. When successfully accomplished, the object can then accept and hold additional Powers. However, the enchantment lasts only for one day, and unless some other Power has been placed in the object, this energy then dissipates, and another like enchantment must be successfully placed upon it at a later date if it is to become extraordinary."

So what this power does is allow you to place Extraordinary Powers ("spells") onto an item. This power lasts 24 hours. So that's the window you have in which to place "some other Power". If you don't do that, then this magic itself dissipates. But if you do place "some other Power" then you're good. There's no 24 hour time limit then. So if you're creating a wand, you can activate Imbue and then, say, 5 additional powers within the 24 hour window, and then those are the additional powers the wand will keep. No time limit. However, without an Implant Power Node, the powers will vanish once used as they have no "permanent housing", and without Renewing Extraordinary Energization, the user of the wand must provide the AEPs. The wand itself is essentially little more than a tool, providing an activation bonus when one of the 5 powers are activated using the wand, much like using a sword may provide a precision bonus to hit.

You can certainly require that a wand also requires Implant Power Node, so even those powers are spent, they have that permanent housing to be recharged. I choose to make it easier for stylistic reasons. I want Mages to use wands as their main go-to's. Take the 15-20 powers you begin with and boil that down to about 5 that you will use most frequently. When you have to make a quick decision, you're thinking of which of 5 things to use. And gain a 20% bonus to activating them. Why not? Your Noble counterpart is getting a 20% bonus if he's using a Thrusting Sword. And he's probably only carrying 5 different weapons at most to choose from in a fight. Fair is fair.

Quote1.- For a "Preternatural Wand that contained 5 powers", how do you rule how many powers can hold? "Imbue with Extraordinary Power Capacity" does not specify how many can be stored.

It's limited by what the mage can successfully activate within the 24 hour window. Consider an enchanter who attempts to place 5 "Good" grade activations onto the wand. That's 30 AEPs right there. If half of the activations fail and must be activated, that actually brings the cost to 60. Plus 8 AEPs to activate Imbue. 16 if you are only successful on the second try. That's 76 AEPs right there. That's about the limit of what most mages will possess until they get very powerful. (My own Mage who possesses the wands has an Enchantment Ability of 68, Arcana of 50, and Speed BR of 17, for an AEP total of 79.)

Quote2.- For the "Wand of Shooting Stars, this has 7 charges" that renew daily. If you use Renewing "Extraordinary Energization," How do you rule if it takes 7 days per charge or 24hrs per charge?

If you were creating a wand of Shooting Stars in my campaign, I'd rule it recharges daily rather than weekly simply because the Wand of Shooting Stars listed in the LML recharges daily rather than weekly. It only becomes a question if you're making a totally unique item.

QuoteI guess point one and two will be in the hands of the Lejend Master. From that point, I completely agree with your assessment. This excerpt is gold:

Glad you liked that. I could have just as easily said it's LM's discretion. But I attempted to introspect upon my own thought process when I make these judgment calls. After I posted that excerpt, I realized something. It correlates really well, albeit a bit loosely, to an excerpt from Gary Gygax's afterword in the 1E DMG:

"BY ORDERING THINGS AS THEY SHOULD BE, THE GAME AS A WHOLE FIRST, YOUR CAMPAIGN NEXT, AND YOUR PARTICIPANTS THEREAFTER, YOU WILL BE PLAYING ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS AS IT WAS MEANT TO BE."

Some people have balked at this--DMs who consider their own house rules superior to the standards set forth in the rulebook. And fair enough. They're within their rights. It's just like, okay, now that you have that right to house rule any way you choose, how are you going to use it so that the end result is actually something good that people will want to play, and that will be playable again and again? Obviously it takes sound judgment. And sound judgment just happens to look a hell of a lot like the "holy trinity" Gary spells out. That's what sound judgment looked like even when I was playing a totally different RPG over which AD&D's rules have zero sway or relevance. It's simply a good guide, period.

QuoteThe gears in my head are still working on this, but in the meantime, I have a follow-up question. You mentioned in this thread that you favor the creation of temporary extraordinary objects. What rules do you apply? I'm interested in alchemia and the Alchemist Order depicted in Lejends magazine.

I would keep the process as simple as possible. Like with Preternatural Fungi, the trick would be preparing the environment that allows the fungi to grow. This is going to require some extraordinary power. But it's going to rely more heavily on odd ingredients. So these are the sorts of things lower level mages would be putting together. Their power isn't so great that they're above the menial task of gathering odd ingredients. Old crones and forest hags who have little else to do with their time will be able to create this items without having to be great mages. Since there isn't a high skill requirement, these items will be as common as needed to meet player demand, and the demands of your NACs as well.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1081022That is so going to be the name of a band I start.

You should have held out for the specific names of the individual fungi. Like Blue Speed Fungus would make a great band name.

Thanks for the additional examples. Now I understand the logic behind Imbue With Extraordinary Power Capacity. It makes perfect sense what you explained

Quote from: Lunamancer;1081179I would keep the process as simple as possible. Like with Preternatural Fungi, the trick would be preparing the environment that allows the fungi to grow. This is going to require some extraordinary power. But it's going to rely more heavily on odd ingredients. So these are the sorts of things lower level mages would be putting together. Their power isn't so great that they're above the menial task of gathering odd ingredients. Old crones and forest hags who have little else to do with their time will be able to create these items without having to be great mages. Since there isn't a high skill requirement, these items will be as common as needed to meet player demand, and the demands of your NACs as well.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I was wondering for an Avatar who wants to create expendable or consumable extraordinary items. The process is really tough, especially the roll for creating an object: If you take 10% of Metallurgy (or Alchemy for consumable items) skill plus 5% Enchantment, Learning, Evaluation, and Metallurgy (not considering Mechanics), you have a base possibility of 30% if you have 5 skills at 100%. I understand this could apply for a permanent and powerful object, but I think it is an overkill for an expendable item. What do you think about it?

Also, it does not consider the Rustic skill, but you already mentioned that it was involved early in the process of selection of the components.

Quote from: Rithuan;1081784Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I was wondering for an Avatar who wants to create expendable or consumable extraordinary items. The process is really tough, especially the roll for creating an object: If you take 10% of Metallurgy (or Alchemy for consumable items) skill plus 5% Enchantment, Learning, Evaluation, and Metallurgy (not considering Mechanics), you have a base possibility of 30% if you have 5 skills at 100%. I understand this could apply for a permanent and powerful object, but I think it is an overkill for an expendable item. What do you think about it?

What if instead of just one at a time, you get several at once? Remember, LML's random item table is organized by grade and for many of the limited use items, the LML often assumes several will be found at one time, and I think that plays a role in the item's grade. If you're making fewer than suggested in the LML, it would constitute a lower grade item. I don't necessarily want to make these easy for Avatars. A lot of the limited-use items in LA are very potent.

QuoteAlso, it does not consider the Rustic skill, but you already mentioned that it was involved early in the process of selection of the components.

Right. But that can still play a bigger role. An Avatar is going to have to run around getting all sorts of exotic ingredients to make the items. A herbalist/healer NAC who makes health boluses often will probably have put together an herb garden that will produce 80% of the ingredients they need. Of the remaining 20%, I'd assume 80% of those can be obtained through trade. So it's only the final 4% that needs to be sought out. Making them in some sense 25 times more efficient than Avatars at making limited-use items. However, to have the garden requires a certain amount of up-front investment and would certainly require Rustic ability to maintain.

I noticed the number of items encountered. It's an interesting way to balance the hard difficulty with a low grade and a high number of items. Maybe an alchemist in question could choose to create fewer boluses of health (with the same amount of resources) for a small bonus (in LA, a -% to the roll. I know. it's hard to keep track)

Regarding the idea of keeping a herb garden, that's an interesting way to invest gold. Every Avatar may want to invest a few coins on that.

I'm running out of questions here! I have one regarding Panprobability (for our readers, it's like extraplanar knowledge skill for LA). Have you ever use it in a game? I have found one example in one adventure from Gary, where he mentioned that it might be used to open a portal to another pan (or plane) in a particular magic place. What the adventure explain is that the portal exists, but require this specific skill to open it.

It's a strange skill that, as far as I understand, is not magical by nature (since it provides Health instead of Speed bonus). I think it might work similar to Legend of Zelda when you cross to the Dark World.

Quote from: Rithuan;1082847I noticed the number of items encountered. It's an interesting way to balance the hard difficulty with a low grade and a high number of items. Maybe an alchemist in question could choose to create fewer boluses of health (with the same amount of resources) for a small bonus (in LA, a -% to the roll. I know. it's hard to keep track)

Yes, the LM is always free to apply a modifier, positive or negative. Activating a power under very favorable conditions is good for a 30 to 50 point bonus. For purposes of enchanting items, I'd make the exact bonus dependent upon the quality of the laboratory. It should be a far out, laboratory-of-your-dreams to get the 50 point bonus. But one that meets adequate guidelines (and here I'd look to the AD&D 1E DMG for guidance--the mandatory labs there are still very expensive) is always can always justify a 30 point boost.

QuoteRegarding the idea of keeping a herb garden, that's an interesting way to invest gold. Every Avatar may want to invest a few coins on that.

It's possible. I imagine this more for NACs. They are more able to tend to the garden due to not being dragged off on adventures every couple of weeks. But in any case, keep in mind my statement above. The quality of such a garden may determine a bonus chance to help the Alchemist out.

QuoteI'm running out of questions here! I have one regarding Panprobability (for our readers, it's like extraplanar knowledge skill for LA). Have you ever use it in a game? I have found one example in one adventure from Gary, where he mentioned that it might be used to open a portal to another pan (or plane) in a particular magic place. What the adventure explain is that the portal exists, but require this specific skill to open it.

It's a strange skill that, as far as I understand, is not magical by nature (since it provides Health instead of Speed bonus). I think it might work similar to Legend of Zelda when you cross to the Dark World.

I'm not going to name which one so that I may utter spoilers freely, but there is an adventure where the first player to guess the topography of the alternate dimension they got sent to gets a few free points of Panprobability--gaining it as a new Ability if not previously possessed.

Beyond that, it's absolutely needed for "independent travel to any other-dimensional matrix not guided by a specific device for transportation there"--in other words, portals MAY transport individuals freely. But if an Avatar uses a power that allows them to travel to an alternate dimension, they absolutely need this Ability to do so successfully. As for portals that require the ability, magic portals are part of the world and you can make any rule for them you like.

In wilderness travel, you might require the occasional "survival" check (based on hunt, ranging, or savagery perhaps). If you wish to require similar checks while plane-hopping, Panprobability is your go-to.

I also allow it to help detect and identify dimensional anomalies. I think of that episode of the Twilight Zone when the little girl gets trapped in the wall and her father calls over his mathematician friend who knows how these things work. That guy's got panprobability.

I wrote an adventure that featured a Void Spider. Its webs are anchored in alternate dimensions. Nodes allow access to alternate worlds. My adventure included some very harsh destinations that would straight out kill Avatars. So to give a fair fighting chance, i allowed Panprobability to give the Avatar some hint or guess that the note leads someplace inhospitable.

Thanks again for your reply.
I know it is lazy to ask this kind of questions, but did you ever had a player with an Avatar using two weapons for attack or block? Does slow things down to much? I really like the damage reduction granted by block, even if you fail blocking the attack (but you have success in the "block" action).

Quote from: Rithuan;1083491Thanks again for your reply.
I know it is lazy to ask this kind of questions, but did you ever had a player with an Avatar using two weapons for attack or block? Does slow things down to much? I really like the damage reduction granted by block, even if you fail blocking the attack (but you have success in the "block" action).

Yeah, the parrying rules are really cool. I remember my very first impression of them is that it solves the great flaw I saw in the parrying rules of most other RPGs--namely, that no matter how good you are, sooner or later an attack is going to get through, so it's a losing strategy in a duel. LA fixes it by inserting the probability for counter attacks. I've also begun applying the parry rule to giants for the purposes of catching siege missiles directed at them. A partial parry indicates some harm mitigation. But a full parry indicates the giant has caught the missile and then can hurl it back on their next turn.

It's a favorite tactic for Noble Avatars. Which Chivalry and Weapons as their first two abilities, they have very high probabilities of parry and riposte. The trick is to win initiative so you can have the parry option--or else get Minstrelsy ability (or Swashbuckling if you have that expansion) at 31+ with adjusted Speed 13+ so you can take the parry option even when losing initiative. One way to help winning initiative is to use a pole arm so you can gain first strike on the first ABC, deferring your attack to parry. It's almost like you're using the pole arm to keep the enemy at bay.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1083518I've also begun applying the parry rule to giants for the purposes of catching siege missiles directed at them. A partial parry indicates some harm mitigation. But a full parry indicates the giant has caught the missile and then can hurl it back on their next turn.

That's just awesome.

QuoteIt's a favorite tactic for Noble Avatars. Which Chivalry and Weapons as their first two abilities, they have very high probabilities of parry and riposte. The trick is to win initiative so you can have the parry option--or else get Minstrelsy ability (or Swashbuckling if you have that expansion) at 31+ with adjusted Speed 13+ so you can take the parry option even when losing initiative. One way to help winning initiative is to use a pole arm so you can gain first strike on the first ABC, deferring your attack to parry. It's almost like you're using the pole arm to keep the enemy at bay.

That's an excellent overview of the process of how parry and riposte work with different abilities. The thing I didn't know (or frankly, I didn't understand) was how the long weapons gain first strike. Could you elaborate more on that? I recall when I read it, it explained that longer weapons attack and shorter counter attacks, but it always sounds to me more a flavor text than an actual mechanic.

Quote from: Rithuan;1083740The thing I didn't know (or frankly, I didn't understand) was how the long weapons gain first strike. Could you elaborate more on that? I recall when I read it, it explained that longer weapons attack and shorter counter attacks, but it always sounds to me more a flavor text than an actual mechanic.

May as well do a whole bit on initiative. So here are the bits on weapon length:

Quote from: LR4AP, pg 187The Game Master may wish to consider the length of the weapons involved and other details of circumstance.

Quote from: LR4AP, pg 195The weapon with the higher rating (length) strikes first when at maximum range from the opponent and last in the event the shorter weapon is within striking range--this indicating the shorter-ranged weapon wielder has closed the range. However, the wielder of the longer weapon can, after striking second, move back to extend the range again. This provides a pattern of combat along these lines:
Long weapon attacks and short weapon counterattacks; short weapon attacks and long weapon counter-attacks while moving back; long weapon now attacks again, and so forth.

Quote from: LML, pg 124Of course a weapon set to impale will strike automatically upon the opponent's attack, regardless of the initiative and before the attack, if of longer reach than the attacker's weapon(s).

So here's the big picture on initiative in LA. First, officially, it's entirely up to the LM. The LM is instructed to use any system appropriate to the style of the campaign. But there is a "default" system laid down as follows.

The simple version is, it's "group" initiative determined by each side rolling d10. You can either go with higher is better or lower is better. Speed BR is the tie-breaker.

The suggested system for large groups is each side rolls d10. If you're playing higher is better, each individual adds their Speed BR to their side's initiative roll. If you're playing lower die roll is better, the winning side (with the lower die roll) adds the positive difference of the two initiative rolls to Speed BR. Whether high is good or low is good for the roll, initiative counts down from highest (adjusted) speed to lowest.

In single combat between humans or human-like creatures, weapon speed is a factor. It is deducted from the Avatar's speed.

Weapon length trumps these systems I have outlined per the above quotes. Namely:
1. When combatants are at the longer weapon's maximum range,
2. When the longer weapon is set to impale,
3. Any other circumstance where the GM feels it's appropriate to account for weapon length

As for timing, the "better" initiatives act on the first second of the ABC, the "worse" ones act on the last second of the ABC. The middling results act on the second second. How exactly to determine this is left to the GM. A couple of possible ways that come to my mind is you can say the fastest third go on the first second, the next fastest third on the second second, and the slowest third go on the last second. Or you could do it by initiative number rather than relative ordinal value.

Where activations are concerned, they are assumed to begin "on initiative" and end as determined by their activation time.