Can we acknowledge that for some gamers, the (fairly common) old-school game experience of having to go through several abortive characters who die-off at low level (before managing to get to a character that survives long enough to have a decent chance of hitting higher levels) is a turn off without just being a matter of them being whining little pussies?

How would you constructively approach this issue, if you have a gamer (whether it be a newbie, or someone who has been "brought up" with more new-school RPGs where there is much greater low-level survival odds) in your group who is experiencing a problem of disenchantment with your game on account of characters he really likes dying off prematurely?  What would you say or do to try to deal with the issue? Or is it just "them's the breaks, kid"?

RPGPundit

QuoteHow would you constructively approach this issue, if you have a gamer (whether it be a newbie, or someone who has been "brought up" with more new-school RPGs where there is much greater low-level survival odds) in your group who is experiencing a problem of disenchantment with your game on account of characters he really likes dying off prematurely? What would you say or do to try to deal with the issue? Or is it just "them's the breaks, kid"?

In this scenario, it sounds like there's a disconnect between the player and the kind of game he wants to play.  You should probably talk to him about that first.  If this is really bumming him out, I might start the whole party out at level three or so to give them a little more survivability.

While I would never just blow it off, like "them's the breaks"; to a certain extent, I feel that the higher mortality rate should be acceptable. To lessen the blow, things like actually roleplaying the funerary process might help; as well as maybe a family member (eg the player's new character) could appear to inherit their gear and say to carry out vengeance or such, which would make for good character motivation.

I was 'brought up' with old school basic/expert D&D but these days I play a game without levels, where you usually finish with as many hit points as you started with.

It's a bracing experience that leads to a more thoughtful kind of gamer. You normally can't just bull your way through battles, tactics and strategies become vital tools in the players' skillset. The group working as a team is a prerequisite, and they quickly become a well oiled machine.

The focus also moves more to the character and character development. Achieving game, campaign, character and group goals is a key element in the enjoyment of such RPGs when there isn't a metagame level target to aim at.

So I guess what I'm saying is some of us prefer the low level experience and don't enjoy being medieval godlings.

Well, the answer is "talk to them."  I make it clear what kind of game I run.

However, I also love curve balls.  One thing that always happens when a new player group starts is that they see a bunch of peasants bringing a dead peasant to the temple to be buried.  The Patriarch says, "One day... and this day may never come... the Temple of Cuthbert will need a favor."  and then he raises the dead peasant.

So, the players know that even for a first level character, resurrection is possible... for a price.

One new player in amongst a bunch of experienced ones doesn't tend to be as much of a problem; my players are good at integrating, and we all convey the idea of "this is dangerous but we'll give you all the help we can, but there are no guarantees."

Also, my usual players have learned how to survive low levels pretty reliably after forty years.

Also also, the fact that I use 3d6 in order means it takes about 5 min. to make a character.

tl;dr It hasn't been much of a problem for me, but I would pay attention to the new player and talk to them as the game goes on.

Also, I did have a TPK developing with some new players with new 1st level characters all because I happened to roll surprise.  So the director called "CUT" and we restaged the scene and ran it again.  I did this because they were all new to D&D, and frankly I didn't want them to say "This game sucks!" and never play again.  But we talked about it afterwards and I told them it was because I rolled surprise and half the party was dead before they had a chance to even react, and that they should not expect such mercy again.

But one other group got a TPK to kobolds in their first session and said "Let's roll new characters and get those little fuckers!" and did.

tl;dr  Read the situation and act accordingly.

I think the issue is being able to lose through no fault of your own. The punishing computer games (Most recently Dark Souls and Monster Hunter, but also roguelikes and the recent spate of roguelikelikes) present fair challenges; they kill you for rushing in unprepared, they are incredibly harsh on players who play stupid, but you can get a long way by just using the basic defensive moves, taking your time, and observing what's going on. They're not trying to kill you, but presenting an environment where it is very easy to kill yourself.

There's a feature in Dark Souls that lets you see how other players have died. The amount of players I've seen who have died, walking off the stairs in the first area of the main game world, before they even meet a monster...

But in an RPG, you can't do that; you're at the whims of the dice, and there is only so much you can do to even the odds in your favour, especially when a fight starts.

I'd say just give 'em a WFRP fate point or two, or a couple of free "the blow leaves you at one hit point" advantages for the group (Never tell them how many)... or even just let them survive the first adventure automatically. The enemies happen to carry exactly enough healing potions to keep you all going! What joy. Gloves off next week.

I don't understand. Have these people never played a videogame?

Quote from: TristramEvans;699317I don't understand. Have these people never played a videogame?

You don't "lose" a character in the great majority of videogames, they just respawn, good as new, maybe minus a life or some XP or something. You don't mis-judge a Goomba and then never get to play Mario again.

Quote from: TristramEvans;699317I don't understand. Have these people never played a videogame?

Videogames let you save and reload.

I think part of this issue can be linked to how long character generation takes in the system you are using.

I don't think high attrition is as big a deal in a game where you can make a replacement in 5-10 minutes and are allowed to rejoin the fray immediately.

High early mortality is a bigger turn off in games that have lengthier character generation systems. If I spend an hour or more looking through books for classes, feats, talents, etc. and/or rolling on a zillion tables for my random background, then I am much more likely to be ticked off if I die the first time a kobold gnaws on my ankle.

In my experience it is best to explain to the players the possibility of high mortality  before the campaign begins. I did this last year when I introduced the group to the Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG. I told them about the zero level "character funnel" and the imbalanced nature of magic beforehand. This helped with the player's expectations.

Quote from: Ladybird;699315But in an RPG, you can't do that; you're at the whims of the dice, and there is only so much you can do to even the odds in your favour, especially when a fight starts.

Funny, I see it just the opposite way; in a computer game I'm limited to what's been programmed in, but in a RPG I can do everything I can think of to alter the odds in my favor.

However, I've found in recent years a lot of players just don't think of things like giving the second rank polearms so they can fight with the front ranks, using spears in the front rank so you can set vs charge or else throw them, if you know the enemy are coming putting a small detachment hidden to your own left to hit the enemy in the unshielded flank, and all the other stuff that we did.

Quote from: Ladybird;699319You don't "lose" a character in the great majority of videogames, they just respawn, good as new, maybe minus a life or some XP or something. You don't mis-judge a Goomba and then never get to play Mario again.

I'd probably, given the same stats, play Malio the Plumber, or the closest name the GM will vet.

How much of this is player expectation? I think a lot of people, especially those new to RPGs are expecting and wanting more "Fiction Emulation" than the old school gaming can deliver. I know one of the newest additions to our gaming group wants to emulate the D&D fiction (Forgotten Realms books) he's enamored with at the moment. That's why he doesn't like the older editions of D&D, because you really cant emulate Fiction very well with it.

Quote from: Old Geezer;699327Funny, I see it just the opposite way; in a computer game I'm limited to what's been programmed in, but in a RPG I can do everything I can think of to alter the odds in my favor.

However, I've found in recent years a lot of players just don't think of things like giving the second rank polearms so they can fight with the front ranks, using spears in the front rank so you can set vs charge or else throw them, if you know the enemy are coming putting a small detachment hidden to your own left to hit the enemy in the unshielded flank, and all the other stuff that we did.

I wonder if part of this has to do with the current generation of gamers having no wargaming background, for the most part anyway. It seems like that kind of thinking comes more naturally to players who have a wargaming background, kind of informing their expectation of combat. While most gamers I know now have their expectations informed by Final Fantasy and movies.

I could be way off base, just a thought.

Quote from: Old Geezer;699327Funny, I see it just the opposite way; in a computer game I'm limited to what's been programmed in, but in a RPG I can do everything I can think of to alter the odds in my favor.

I think they were referring to situations where they dice just screw you. Like the surprise you wrote about earlier where half the party members were dead before they even had a chance to react.

I don't mind getting killed because my character did something stupid, and I don't mind that death can occur due to bad dice rolls, but I'll be honest, I have no interest in games where I'm expected to lose multiple characters before I get one to even level.