So I'm heading to Gary Con next month and would like to bring copies of an AD&D 1e module that I've written to pass around to anyone in the biz, as evidence of my writing prowess (or lack thereof). Any thoughts on how fast I could get sued for such an endeavor? I wouldn't sell it and wouldn't make any reference to TSR, WOTC, AD&D, D&D, etc., but I'd really hate to generalize the rule terms to the point that it doesn't resemble AD&D anymore. Think I could post it online for download (for free)?
Quote from: dndgeek;283420So I'm heading to Gary Con next month and would like to bring copies of an AD&D 1e module that I've written to pass around to anyone in the biz, as evidence of my writing prowess (or lack thereof). Any thoughts on how fast I could get sued for such an endeavor? I wouldn't sell it and wouldn't make any reference to TSR, WOTC, AD&D, D&D, etc., but I'd really hate to generalize the rule terms to the point that it doesn't resemble AD&D anymore. Think I could post it online for download (for free)?
I will hereby wager 1,000,000 US dollars that you will not be sued. Or even noticed.
1. Is all your material original? For instance, do you copy anything verbatim from the AD&D published works?
2. Do you use any logos? TSR? Trademarks like Advanced Dungeons & Dragons?
The first is copyright law, the second is trademark law. Both are reliant on the holder choosing to bring suit against you.
That said IANAL. Consult yours if you are concerned.
Abyssal is probably right on both accounts, though I am pretty charming...asswipe.
Quote from: HinterWelt;2834231. Is all your material original? For instance, do you copy anything verbatim from the AD&D published works?
All original, except for monsters and related stats, like weapons, etc., if that's verbatim.
Quote from: HinterWelt;2834232. Do you use any logos? TSR? Trademarks like Advanced Dungeons & Dragons?
No; none. All logos I've created myself and have no reference to TSR, AD&D, WOTC, etc.
I know it's been asked a million times, but I'm still not sure of the answer: are game mechanics copyrightable? I've seen a lot of games that use mechanics almost identical to other games, so I'm assuming no.
Quote from: dndgeek;283427All original, except for monsters and related stats, like weapons, etc., if that's verbatim.
Umm, that is a bit concerning. Did you take and type monster descriptions in exactly as they appeared in the MM?
Quote from: dndgeek;283427No; none. All logos I've created myself and have no reference to TSR, AD&D, WOTC, etc.
Remember, trade marks are not necessarily graphic. "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons" is a trademark. You cannot use it as though it was your own. You can use it to claim compatibility but even here can be a bit tricky.
Quote from: dndgeek;283427I know it's been asked a million times, but I'm still not sure of the answer: are game mechanics copyrightable? I've seen a lot of games that use mechanics almost identical to other games, so I'm assuming no.
No, you cannot copyright a mechanic. You can only copyright the expression of that mechanic. So, you would not be able to copyright "STR, CON, DEX, WIS, INT, and CHA" as a collection of stats ranged from 3-16. However, the text in the PH describing those stats is protected under copyright.
The part you need to watch for is that WoTC has some of its monsters Trademarked. How strong is that IP? Well, that is an entirely different thread and a whole lot of arguing.
In the end, consult your lawyer.
Quote from: HinterWelt;283431Umm, that is a bit concerning. Did you take and type monster descriptions in exactly as they appeared in the MM?
No, just some basics a la a 1e module; not the full run-down. The only thing that might look like a MM page is a new monster of my own creation, which doesn't happen until the 2nd module (of the 3-part series).
QuoteRemember, trade marks are not necessarily graphic. "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons" is a trademark. You cannot use it as though it was your own. You can use it to claim compatibility but even here can be a bit tricky.
As I've stated: no reference what-so-ever to AD&D. You'd have to have played it to know what it is.
QuoteNo, you cannot copyright a mechanic. You can only copyright the expression of that mechanic. So, you would not be able to copyright "STR, CON, DEX, WIS, INT, and CHA" as a collection of stats ranged from 3-16. However, the text in the PH describing those stats is protected under copyright.
That's what I thought.
QuoteThe part you need to watch for is that WoTC has some of its monsters Trademarked. How strong is that IP? Well, that is an entirely different thread and a whole lot of arguing.
Again, what I thought. Thanks for your posts; I appreciate it.
Quote from: dndgeek;283435No, just some basics a la a 1e module; not the full run-down. The only thing that might look like a MM page is a new monster of my own creation, which doesn't happen until the 2nd module (of the 3-part series).
O.k. I am not getting through to you. It doe not matter how much, it matters if you looked at a copyrighted work, then turned to your manuscript and wrote precisely what you just read. It does not matter if you read 10 sentences, then only reproduced 5 or if your read ten, then added another ten. What matters is if you COPIED any amount from the copyrighted material.
I just am trying to be clear. I might be misunderstanding you but it seems like you are thinking it would be o.k. to copy some. Not so. You cannot copy out of a copyrighted work for distribution, paid or not.
A, You're not making any money on this, and
B, It's going to be GaryCon of all places.
Nobody's going to give you any trouble. If you do want to switch over to selling something, that's when OSRIC comes in. Read up on how it works, and look at some for-money OSRIC material to see what licenses you need to include in the work. But for GaryCon, knock yourself out handing around free 1E material.
By the way, if you want to show off your prowess, have you considered publishing it as a free pdf file? If you don't have your own webspace or the technical skills, the Dragonsfoot site can turn your material into a pretty good-looking shape and host it for you.
Quote from: HinterWelt;283441O.k. I am not getting through to you. It doe not matter how much, it matters if you looked at a copyrighted work, then turned to your manuscript and wrote precisely what you just read. It does not matter if you read 10 sentences, then only reproduced 5 or if your read ten, then added another ten. What matters is if you COPIED any amount from the copyrighted material.
I just am trying to be clear. I might be misunderstanding you but it seems like you are thinking it would be o.k. to copy some. Not so. You cannot copy out of a copyrighted work for distribution, paid or not.
I understand everything you've been saying, but you haven't been definitive on the stats. As you stated before, you can't copyright the abilities, as an example, so I'm following that example by saying I'm using a similar run-down for new monsters (as in the MM): HD, AC, MV, etc. These new monsters have never before been published. As far as the rest of the monsters (that TSR have previously used), I'm saying that I might list a troll as having HD x, AC y and MV z (some of which might be the same as in the MM), but I'm not relisting the troll with all of his stats, like it was straight out of the MM. If I can't use stats in that fashion, then I think the answer would be: yes you can copyright game mechanics. After all, trolls were around a long time before TSR came along and just because TSR and I agree that trolls should have a certain paramater of stats, that shouldn't indicate that I copied it straight out of their publication. Now, if they came up with a new monster named TheAbyssalAssWiper, that no one had ever heard of before, I could see that being their IP. Are we on the same page now?
And to be clear again about logos: I'm using my own company name, not anything to do with TSR or AD&D.
Quote from: Premier;283444A, You're not making any money on this, and
B, It's going to be GaryCon of all places.
Nobody's going to give you any trouble. If you do want to switch over to selling something, that's when OSRIC comes in. Read up on how it works, and look at some for-money OSRIC material to see what licenses you need to include in the work. But for GaryCon, knock yourself out handing around free 1E material.
I tend to agree with you. I just didn't want to walk in there with a pile of lawsuits-in-the-making without at least discussing it with some folks that may have researched the same thing before, as I'm fairly legally-dense. I've only read about the subject to a moderate extent over the years.
QuoteBy the way, if you want to show off your prowess, have you considered publishing it as a free pdf file? If you don't have your own webspace or the technical skills, the Dragonsfoot site can turn your material into a pretty good-looking shape and host it for you.
I do have the ability to post it online, have webspace (not quite ready to announce it yet, though things are coming along nicely) and do plan to publish material in the near future. I only found out about Gary Con less than two weeks ago, though, and so am scrambling to get things ready. Thanks for your thoughts; appreciated.
Quote from: dndgeek;283420So I'm heading to Gary Con next month and would like to bring copies of an AD&D 1e module that I've written to pass around to anyone in the biz, as evidence of my writing prowess (or lack thereof). Any thoughts on how fast I could get sued for such an endeavor? I wouldn't sell it and wouldn't make any reference to TSR, WOTC, AD&D, D&D, etc., but I'd really hate to generalize the rule terms to the point that it doesn't resemble AD&D anymore. Think I could post it online for download (for free)?
If you confine yourself to the list presented in the d20 SRD and state that the stats you are using are on under the OGL there is little chance that Wizards will have any problem with what you are doing. There are professional companies (Goodman Games, Kenzer Co, Expeditous Retreat, and others) that have 1e modules out for years.
There is also OSRIC which has been expressly put together to for people wanting to release 1e material.
http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/
Quote from: dndgeek;283446I understand everything you've been saying, but you haven't been definitive on the stats. As you stated before, you can't copyright the abilities, as an example, s
Everything you need for most (but not all) of the original AD&D monsters has been released as part of the d20 OGL. This is what OSRIC and the other retro clones use. Stick with that list and you will be ok. For module writing this means no mind flayers, carrion crawlers, beholders, the named artifacts, etc.
Quote from: dndgeek;283447I do have the ability to post it online, have webspace (not quite ready to announce it yet, though things are coming along nicely) and do plan to publish material in the near future. I only found out about Gary Con less than two weeks ago, though, and so am scrambling to get things ready. Thanks for your thoughts; appreciated.
You will also want to check out some of the old school sites to promote your module.
http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/
http://odd74.proboards76.com/
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/
among others.
Excellent info, estar; thanks much!
Quote from: dndgeek;283446I understand everything you've been saying, but you haven't been definitive on the stats. As you stated before, you can't copyright the abilities, as an example, so I'm following that example by saying I'm using a similar run-down for new monsters (as in the MM): HD, AC, MV, etc. These new monsters have never before been published. As far as the rest of the monsters (that TSR have previously used), I'm saying that I might list a troll as having HD x, AC y and MV z (some of which might be the same as in the MM), but I'm not relisting the troll with all of his stats, like it was straight out of the MM. If I can't use stats in that fashion, then I think the answer would be: yes you can copyright game mechanics. After all, trolls were around a long time before TSR came along and just because TSR and I agree that trolls should have a certain paramater of stats, that shouldn't indicate that I copied it straight out of their publication. Now, if they came up with a new monster named TheAbyssalAssWiper, that no one had ever heard of before, I could see that being their IP. Are we on the same page now?
And to be clear again about logos: I'm using my own company name, not anything to do with TSR or AD&D.
To be clearer, you cannot copyright words. That would be trademark law. A word like "Strength" is not copyrightable. I could try and trademark it but then I need to have defend it and most likely I would lose as it falls under common usage.
With using a monster stat block, you need to be mindful of trade dress. Does your product look like the source you pulled the stats from? Yes, then you have a problem. No, then you probably don't. Note: You probably don't anyway but you can ALWAYS be sued.
As to your point of the stats, sorry but it is a touchy point. Some lawyers will tell you that is copyrighted material since it is their IP;i.e.:
Monster: Troll
HD: 3+1
MV: 12
AC: 2
And you put it in your work as:
Monster: Troll
HD: 3+1
MV: 12
AC: 2
However if you do it so:
Troll, regenerating creature
3+1 HD
2 AC
12 MV
Then some lawyers would say no. The problem being you are dealing with "Substantively different".
So, make your own trade dress, use the stats given, and make up your own description. You should be fine but, and I cannot say this enough times, IANAL. I am just a small press guy who has had entirely too long of talks with my lawyer. She is a great friend but she is also pretty conservative (read plays it safe).
Some practical advice, I would just be mindful of who you give copies too. If you give it to a WoTC person make sure to include a letter of introduction explaining your purpose for giving it to them and it is meant to showcase potential works you could do for them.
Any ways, good luck. I hope I have not scared you off or anything. As I said (and other posters) I doubt you will garner the ire of WoTC if you are just handing out a few free copies at a con. It costs them money to sue you as well. ;)
Quote from: estar;283452Everything you need for most (but not all) of the original AD&D monsters has been released as part of the d20 OGL. This is what OSRIC and the other retro clones use. Stick with that list and you will be ok. For module writing this means no mind flayers, carrion crawlers, beholders, the named artifacts, etc.
These were the critters I was thinking of. However, keep in mind that then you need to include the OGL license, a section 15 and all the copyright notices.
More great info, HinterWelt. I can cetainly get creative with the stat block (and anything else that hints at IP) and I'll be sure to include the OGL stuff. Once I get back from the con, I'll post the module on my site too, if anyone's interested.
Quote from: dndgeek;283463More great info, HinterWelt. I can cetainly get creative with the stat block (and anything else that hints at IP) and I'll be sure to include the OGL stuff. Once I get back from the con, I'll post the module on my site too, if anyone's interested.
It should be noted that if you use the OGL then you CAN copy directly from the source. This means the source must be released using the OGL and that the section 15 does not specifically list the stat blocks as PI. Ester seems to have a better handle on the specific material here (I am just a D20 guy ;)).
Quote from: HinterWelt;283464It should be noted that if you use the OGL then you CAN copy directly from the source. This means the source must be released using the OGL and that the section 15 does not specifically list the stat blocks as PI. Ester seems to have a better handle on the specific material here (I am just a D20 guy ;)).
Note that under the OGL there is a distinction between the open material and product identity. If you want to have as much as possible under your copyright then make a layout that clearly sets off the stat blocks for characters, treasure, traps, and creatures. Declare those OGL and the rest of your module product identity. Luckily the stat blocks for AD&D are minimal compared to D20. Use OSRIC as the list of what you are permitted to use.
If you are still not sure then buy a goodman game 1e module or a expeditous retreat module and look at how they do it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_use
Short version: You can say "This is for Dungeons & Dragons" as long as you don't use their logo or imply that it's official.
Hi!
Hinter is spot on. The only thing I want to add is:
It doesn't matter if you are charging or not. Lawyers need to promote a few ideas (legally)
1) That they do care about their copyright. Meaning, even if you do not make money or even charge money for your material, if it uses copyrighted materials, you are still vulnerable to suit. And it would not be thrown out as a frivolous lawsuit as the ip holder has to show that it is interested in defending its copyright from all violators.
2) Trademarks need to defended in every case that the holder is aware of. Although this can nominally be avoided with a disclaimer (e.g., no use of trademark "x" is intended as a challenge to trademark holder "y").
Also, by giving these to people in the industry, even for free, you are setting your material up to be more noticeable by the ip holder.
Also, IANAL, but I just wanted to be clear that no money has to be transacted in any way in order for there to be an actionable situation. Although, typically, you will receive cease and desist before you get sued. Only after you fail to Cease and Desist, will you have to go to court. Also, I think OGL only applies to 3.5, so it might not be too helpful for AD&D 1e...
Quote from: dindenver;283495And it would not be thrown out as a frivolous lawsuit as the ip holder has to show that it is interested in defending its copyright from all violators
I don't believe that to be the case in the US (& it's certainly not the case in the UK, where I teach copyright law) - you don't lose copyright by not enforcing it. Trademarks, by contrast, can be lost if not enforced against infringing use (use indicating origin). However "Compatible with the 1st edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons ruleset formerly published by TSR" is a nominative (descriptive) use of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons , not an infringing use.
Quote from: HinterWelt;283461Monster: Troll
HD: 3+1
MV: 12
AC: 2
I don't believe that to be a substantial work such as would attract copyright protection. By contrast, a 3rd edition D&D monster stat block does look substantial enough to be copyright-protected. Note however that it is the presentation that is protected under copyright, not the data itself.
S'mon,
You are probably right.
What I do know is. It doesn't matter if you are charging money or not in order for it to be an actionable copyright violation.
It should also be remembered that in many jurisdictions some of the rights copyright owners possess relate only to materials being distributed to the public. Where the line between "privately circulated" and "distributed to the public" lies is, of course, a matter of debate. But (and please note I am not a qualified IP lawyer of any kind) I would say that if you are just privately showing a few publishers your work rather than whipping it out in public for all to see you should be fine, especially when you consider that none of the publishers are likely to have any interest in reporting you to Wizards, and if you're not putting the module on the open market Wizards may choose not to give a fuck.
Of course, if you want to actually publish the thing then that pretty much definitely counts as making it available to the public, so you will need to be pretty careful about copyright at that point. If you have convinced a publisher to put out your work, they can probably help you with this.
Of course, if you show some understanding of the requirements of copyright at this stage, it will make it more likely a publisher will pick you up in the first place.
So, my advice would be to look at how Goodman and OSRIC and others pull this off, listen to the advice on this thread, and err on the side of caution. You are not likely to get sued so long as you don't put this stuff on the open market. But it never hurts to look professional when you're asking publishers to take the financial risk of publishing your work.
Quote from: S'mon;283581I don't believe that to be a substantial work such as would attract copyright protection. By contrast, a 3rd edition D&D monster stat block does look substantial enough to be copyright-protected. Note however that it is the presentation that is protected under copyright, not the data itself.
And this is what I was trying to get across. It is more about what the judge would think then some hard and fast rule. My lawyer always advises me to try and avoid such issues. I was merely trying to illustrate the issue of trade dress.
Quote from: S'mon;283581I don't believe that to be a substantial work such as would attract copyright protection. By contrast, a 3rd edition D&D monster stat block does look substantial enough to be copyright-protected. Note however that it is the presentation that is protected under copyright, not the data itself.
S'mon is probably right about a single stat block. But it's important to note that similarities in terms of presentation can be cumulative. That's a major risk to anyone not using the OGL.
On the other hand, as a practical matter, AS LONG AS YOU DIDN'T VIOLATE TRADEMARKS (use the disclaimer about "not affiliated with...etc" the chance for being tagged with anything beyond a cease and desist (which is no problem if you don't plan on distributing it again) is vanishingly small. Lawsuits cost WotC money, so they wouldn't likely initiate one over a small circulation that wouldn't be repeated.
There's no guarantee of that, but there are many more people out there that they'd go after before you, if they were going to get draconian. Right now, WotC is following a pretty loose enforcement policy over 0e/1e. That may change, and they're not as lax as they look, but again, if it's a one-time distribution the PRACTICAL likelihood of enforcement against you for violating copyright by cumulative similarities is very small.
If you plan on longer term distribution, using the OGL through OSRIC is the safest bet - and those with enough legal savvy to evaluate their documents for the risk of cumulative similarity could even rely solely on the fact that mechanics aren't copyrightable, either using the OGL without OSRIC or going completely commando and asserting compatibility without the OGL disclosure. I wouldn't advise that for ANYONE who's a non-lawyer. It's one thing for Kenzer to do it, it's another thing entirely to do it without understanding the risks. Kenzer's a lawyer.
Quote from: dindenver;283495...I think OGL only applies to 3.5, so it might not be too helpful for AD&D 1e...
Here's my understanding:
The OGL is a license; it isn't tied to 3.5. The 3.5 SRD uses the OGL, and declares the information as open content under the terms of OGL. (Similarly, the 3.0 SRD used the OGL and declared its content as open.) Per the OGL (emphases added):
Quote4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.
Quote...(g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content....
Quote...(b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted;...
Thus, you can take terms, text, descriptions, etc. that are released as open content and edit, format, modify, add, extend, abridge, recast, transform, and adapt them, provided you abide by the whole of the license (such as respecting Product Identity, trademarks, etc.). So you could take the SRD description and stats of a goblin, for example, and modify and re-present them in a manner that's compatible with 1e. An original presentation coupled with the the OGL's permission to use and modify the open content terms and text of the SRD makes this possible. (Also important is the fact that game rules aren't subject to copyright -- only the presentation of the rules is subject to copyright.)
Quote from: Mythmere;283640Kenzer's a lawyer.
And isn't he an intellectual property lawyer, at that?
Thanks to everyone posting in this thread; I really appreciate your opinions. I have a better handle on the semantics of the issue now, I think, though I believe the module was okay to begin with (as much of what has been said I sort of assumed, perhaps subconciously). The module has changed, though, as I've added a few elements to it to make it a true Gygax tribute module. I'm giddy over the progress so far, but I have some new mapping to do, so I gotta run...
Oh, but please keep the discussion going, if anyone else has more to impart!
Quote from: S'mon;283581I don't believe that to be a substantial work such as would attract copyright protection. By contrast, a 3rd edition D&D monster stat block does look substantial enough to be copyright-protected. Note however that it is the presentation that is protected under copyright, not the data itself.
In the U.S. it is the
creative expression that is protected. You could copy the listing of phone numbers and addresses from a phonebook verbatim and it would be OK, however, doing the same for the advertisements and other creative expression would not.
I understand the EU has (or had) protection for compilations of information (under the Database Directive I believe) which would be different than the U.S. approach.
The U.S. Copyright Office has a decent FAQ on the basics.