Hi all,
Will be playing Hommlet to kick off an AD&D campaign (but using C&C rules).  Been a long time since I played/ran this adventure and want to give my PCs the option to go to ToEE and eventually do Giants/Drow - if they want.  I think it would be cool, without railroading in any way, if my PCs do the boathouse and then follow up all the way to depths clicking that Lolth has been behind the scenes the entire time.

In light of that I would like to have Lareth more integrated into the over all plot of the temple without just making him a servant of Zugtomy, I like the idea he is working for Lolth and he is (likely) the only male cleric that isn't a drow and above 4th level.  But the original adventures really didn't connect these well.  I even recall being surprised that Zugtomy was the big-bad instead of Lolth as a kid.

So what is Lareth doing? He serves Lolth, and isn't subtle about it, but is providing treasure and slaves to the temple? Seems contradictory and Lolth and Zugtomy are not friends.  He seems like an outlier.

Thanks.

He was a cleric of Zuggtmoy but maybe Lolth got him fatally addicted to some drug made from exotic spider-venom and she's using him to pervert and infiltrate Zuggtmoy's operations on the material plane perhaps opening the festering swamps to an army of Yochlol on the theory that  Zuggtmoy shares a plane with Juiblex(Jubilex) who is an aspect or perhaps descendent or product of Ghaunadaur and Lolth might use access to the foulest of bogs to somehow deal with the ancient Elder Eye who sometimes pitches his tent beneath her demon-web pit, so to speak, but not in the dirty way it sounds like. Well it IS dirty in terms of being a foul malodorous gelatinous puddles of cosmic corruption but it's not prurient.

You might check out Greyhawk Grognard's blog.  Dude is really into the lore and even self-published an expansion to ToEE.  He'll likely have ideas you can crib.  He also has a youtube channel.

I'm making Lareth an anti-paladin, using the original Dragon magazine version from the 80s. I'm also swapping two of the factions in the temple to fit it into my own setting. Zuggtmoy becomes an as-yet-undetermined serpent creature of similar power, and Iuz is replaced by St. Kargoth, also from Dragon in the 80s.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 16, 2022, 08:16:59 AM
You might check out Greyhawk Grognard's blog.  Dude is really into the lore and even self-published an expansion to ToEE.  He'll likely have ideas you can crib.  He also has a youtube channel.

Seconded.

Quote from: solomani on January 16, 2022, 04:20:56 AM

So what is Lareth doing? He serves Lolth, and isn't subtle about it, but is providing treasure and slaves to the temple? Seems contradictory and Lolth and Zugtomy are not friends.  He seems like an outlier.

Thanks.

What if Lareth is somehow unaware Zugtomy is involved? Such as Zug posing as some spokesthingy for Lolth, or just never mentioning that theres some friction going on just to reap the benefits. And of course thats going to get this fellow in trouble with Lolth which will either get em dead, or maybe cause them to turn to Zug for help and/or power. Win-win situation for Zugtomy.

Or what if he is doing this under orders/influence from Lolth? What if hes really adding cursed items to the treasure or spies to the slaves. Or slaves magiced into walking time bombs waiting to go off later. Preferrably at the worst possible time for Zug.

Or even all of the above! Zugs pulling a fast one. But Lareth sees through it and as revenge is passing off bad items and slaves thats going to cause trouble for Zug later.

Quote from: RandyB on January 16, 2022, 10:00:04 AM
I'm making Lareth an anti-paladin, using the original Dragon magazine version from the 80s. I'm also swapping two of the factions in the temple to fit it into my own setting. Zuggtmoy becomes an as-yet-undetermined serpent creature of similar power, and Iuz is replaced by St. Kargoth, also from Dragon in the 80s.

St. Kargoth was a Death Knight, right? IIRC, maybe "King of the Death Knights?"

I've always wondered who was supposed to be more badass: Lord Soth or St. Kargoth.

The sad thing is, my copy of the Fiend Folio is sitting four feet away from me, but I've got a broken ankle and I'm damned if I'm getting up again to grab it and look it up. The laziness!! 

Also, which volume of Dragon had the anti-paladin again?

Quote from: jmarso on January 16, 2022, 11:59:06 AM

Quote from: RandyB on January 16, 2022, 10:00:04 AM
I'm making Lareth an anti-paladin, using the original Dragon magazine version from the 80s. I'm also swapping two of the factions in the temple to fit it into my own setting. Zuggtmoy becomes an as-yet-undetermined serpent creature of similar power, and Iuz is replaced by St. Kargoth, also from Dragon in the 80s.

St. Kargoth was a Death Knight, right? IIRC, maybe "King of the Death Knights?"

I've always wondered who was supposed to be more badass: Lord Soth or St. Kargoth.

The sad thing is, my copy of the Fiend Folio is sitting four feet away from me, but I've got a broken ankle and I'm damned if I'm getting up again to grab it and look it up. The laziness!! 

Also, which volume of Dragon had the anti-paladin again?

Kargoth is "Patron saint of the death knights". By definition he should be more powerful than Soth. Kargoth was introduced in Dragon #79. The anti-paladin is ftom Dragon #39.

Quote from: jmarso on January 16, 2022, 11:59:06 AM
I've always wondered who was supposed to be more badass: Lord Soth or St. Kargoth.

Kargoth of course! He is the first of his kind.

I like the idea he is just shipping them cursed, botched items and spy/faulty slaves. Thanks all, will also check out Greyhawk Grognard's blog.

I just ran T-1  Village of Hommlet, and I made Larety a worshipper of Tharizdun and an age t of Eclavdra(From G-3: Hall of the Fire Giant King).

The last time I ran T1, et cetera, I made some notes about how I approached Lareth. The notes follow:

First, I'm excising the Lareth/Lolth connection. Lareth serves Zuggtmoy and is associated with the Greater Temple. (Thus, the Greater Temple/Zuggtmoy symbol on the cached uniforms at the Moathouse, et cetera).

Second, I'm trying to make Lareth more than just an "end boss" in the Moathouse. In fact, I'm hoping he goes undiscovered for a while. He has been trying to subvert the people of Hommlet.

One way he's doing that is encouraging ill feelings between the original Old Faith locals and the "intruding" Cuthbert followers. He's trying to associate the Cuthbert followers with "intruders" who support the meddling Viscount of Verbobonc, coming in with taxes and demands.

Another (related) way he's doing that is creating a black market in Hommlet. The area is damp and wooded, and he's been creating a market for rare fungi and spreading knowledge of how and where to grow these delights, which can bring a lot of money. It starts off with culinary delicacies, but after the farmers get a taste of the money, more exotic fungi can be introduced as well. All of these are sold through illicit channels controlled by Lareth (and associated with the Temple, although that connection isn't known to the townsfolk), and it's all under-the-table and tax-free. This tax-free income is one reason certain families in Hommlet have quite a bit of wealth squirreled away. And it helps drive another wedge between Hommlet and the forces of Verbobonc.

I also have the Traders associated with the Greater Temple (I noticed they had a scarab). Zert, however, I've associated with the Earth Temple. I should mention that the party has employed Zert as a man-at-arms, and he's won their trust.

So the party has made some contacts in Hommlet. They are friendly with Jaroo, but on even better terms with the Church of St. Cuthbert. They haven't dealt with the Traders, yet, nor have they met Rufus and Burne. They're having some downtime, now, while the Illusionist is raised and recovers, as well as the others who had near-death wounds (weeks, certainly -- I need to figure out exactly how long).

Duing that time, Larteth will have plenty of time to figure out who attacked the moathouse. He'll certainly take note that the group included a Votary of St. Cuthbert (i.e., the Paladin) and a cleric of St. Cuthbert, as well as both an elf and a dwarf.

The PCs moved a bunch of rubble and rubbish to uncover the hidden rooms with the cached armor, uniforms, and weapons, but didn't take them. Lareth is going to move that stuff. He's also going to create more zombies from the dead brigands, and recruit additional troops from the Nulb area. However, at this point one of his main goals is to keep the secret section of the moathouse dungeons a secret; he won't re-populate the areas the PCs explored -- at least not with regular troops. His reinforcements will be kept in the secret areas.

He's going to make it seem that whatever survivors there were from the PCs first attack on the moathouse have fled with the cached equipment the PCs found.

He's almost certain to discover that Zert is with the PCs, and will contact him and promise him advancement and wealth for his assistance, hoping to bind Zert to him, personally. Zert is currently serving his own interests and those of the Earth temple, in that order. However, he's likely to find Lareth persuasive and become a more direct agent for the New Master of the Moathouse.

Through Zert, Lareth can discover a wealth of information about the PCs, and their strengths and weaknesses. Lareth is also thinking about ways to kill the PCs without open battle. Poison mushrooms in a meal is a possibility. He probably won't pursue such a course unless he has a reasonable chance of success (perhaps looking to subvert a potboy at the Welcome Wench); he'd rather convince the PCs that the moathouse is explored and empty.

Lareth is also going tell the people involved in his black market that the PCs are agents of the Viscount, and to not tell them anything about the under-the-table fungi sales going on in the area.