TheRPGSite

https://youtu.be/mPDc3DVHwKo?t=2946

Kyle can't wait for people who look like him (whites) leave the game.  Someone sent him to the Earnest Gary Gygax school of public speaking.

Does the "guys like me can't leave soon enough" mean like, companies that control stuff?  He was JUST talking about "white guys in a basement", so I think he's saying "...(white guys)... like me, can't leave soon enough", but I could easily be missing context here.  Is he really just making such a bold anti-white statement or was it just a bit of conversational flimflam confusion?

He was talking about diversity at first and then he segways into the race of the customer base and continues in the same moment stating he can't wait to get rid of guys who look like him.  He was talking immediately about the customer base and then went into a statement about how he wants to get rid of guys who look like him.  To me, that's his ugly subconscious rearing its ugly head.  White leftists are the only racial/political group that has negative in group preference.  And he let that negative ingroup preference be shown.

Ninjaed

Stop giving money to people that hate you.

Here's what I got of his actual words, for what it's worth.

QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?

Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.

These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.

Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.

And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.

I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.

the problem with that transcript, he answer the first question and then the last three lines he's moved on from talking about D&D employees and is instead now talking about the player base..  Then he Earnest Gary Gygaxed himself by stating "guys like me can't leave soon enough for the hobby".  He moved the subject away from hiring to talk about the player base and their race, which was a racist move on his part.  He's working for a company based in Seattle, the area is far to the left and white.  A study was done on racism by political orientation and race.  White leftists were the only group that had negative in group preference, he's a product of his environment on what is acceptable to state publicly.  And even then talking about hiring by race and not talent is how we've gotten a D&D that can't write a module or book that is worth buying or will be memorable.  They wrote an adequate ruleset using help from a number of OSR resources external from D&D.  There is no good way to spin and exec talking about how he wants less of a race.  At least he didn't grow a funny mustache w/ armband or put on a rainbow hood during the interview.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 07, 2023, 12:14:02 AM
the problem with that transcript, he answer the first question and then the last three lines he's moved on from talking about D&D employees and is instead now talking about the player base..  Then he Earnest Gary Gygaxed himself by stating "guys like me can't leave soon enough for the hobby".  He moved the subject away from hiring to talk about the player base and their race, which was a racist move on his part.  He's working for a company based in Seattle, the area is far to the left and white.  A study was done on racism by political orientation and race.  White leftists were the only group that had negative in group preference, he's a product of his environment on what is acceptable to state publicly.

Would it be any less horrible if he was talking about hiring?

Lets make an experiment, whenever he talks about white people/men substitute it for jews/women, done? If it makes you recoil at the racism the statement was racist/sexist from the start.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
Here's what I got of his actual words, for what it's worth.

QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?

Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.

These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.

Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.

And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.

I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.

So, white straight normal men can't leave the hobby fast enough for his tastes.

Are you gonna try and obfuscate as per usual?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:19:58 AM
Lets make an experiment, whenever he talks about white people/men substitute it for jews/women, done? If it makes you recoil at the racism the statement was racist/sexist from the start.

So in this experiment, there's a company where 100% of the top positions of power are all filled by women. (Something in child care or cute stuffed animals, maybe?) And the customer base was falsely assumed to be all female in the past, but has more and more men in the present.

So a woman executive says that she welcomes men into the company, and that people like her can't get out of the way fast enough.

It seems a little farfetched, but I think I could picture it.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:40:37 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:19:58 AM
Lets make an experiment, whenever he talks about white people/men substitute it for jews/women, done? If it makes you recoil at the racism the statement was racist/sexist from the start.

So in this experiment, there's a company where 100% of the top positions of power are all filled by women. (Something in child care or cute stuffed animals, maybe?) And the customer base was falsely assumed to be all female in the past, but has more and more men in the present.

So a woman executive says that she welcomes men into the company, and that people like her can't get out of the way fast enough.

It seems a little farfetched, but I think I could picture it.

Kyle works in the US where it is against the law to discriminate on a number of characteristics including race, its under Title IX.  What Kyle stated would make WotC liable for a discrimination in hiring practices to any white person Kyle was part of the hiring process or interview process.  Is it better for D&D to be sued under the law for him being a racist bonehead or would it be better for him to tell his customers he doesn't want white people?  What poisonous position do you want to defend, because that is what you are doing here.

https://www.justice.gov/crt/title-ix

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:40:37 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:19:58 AM
Lets make an experiment, whenever he talks about white people/men substitute it for jews/women, done? If it makes you recoil at the racism the statement was racist/sexist from the start.

So in this experiment, there's a company where 100% of the top positions of power are all filled by women. (Something in child care or cute stuffed animals, maybe?) And the customer base was falsely assumed to be all female in the past, but has more and more men in the present.

So a woman executive says that she welcomes men into the company, and that people like her can't get out of the way fast enough.

It seems a little farfetched, but I think I could picture it.

To be comparable it would need to be a company that has historically been full of women who were really good at the job, were attracted to the job because they love the industry, and spaces were always open to men, but men just weren't interested.

Then the industry suddenly attracts men that hate it, but want in anyway. So a shitheel exec goes on a tear about how the industry will be better once the people who always enjoyed and supported it make way for the fly-by-night male activists who want to burn it to the ground.

There, now your disingenuous comparison works better.

EDIT: And I just noticed how your example casually sidesteps the racism layered on the sexism.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 01:04:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:40:37 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:19:58 AM
Lets make an experiment, whenever he talks about white people/men substitute it for jews/women, done? If it makes you recoil at the racism the statement was racist/sexist from the start.

So in this experiment, there's a company where 100% of the top positions of power are all filled by women. (Something in child care or cute stuffed animals, maybe?) And the customer base was falsely assumed to be all female in the past, but has more and more men in the present.

So a woman executive says that she welcomes men into the company, and that people like her can't get out of the way fast enough.

It seems a little farfetched, but I think I could picture it.

To be comparable it would need to be a company that has historically been full of women who were really good at the job, were attracted to the job because they love the industry, and spaces were always open to men, but men just weren't interested.

Then the industry suddenly attracts men that hate it, but want in anyway. So a shitheel exec goes on a tear about how the industry will be better once the people who always enjoyed and supported it make way for the fly-by-night male activists who want to burn it to the ground.

There, now your disingenuous comparison works better.

EDIT: And I just noticed how your example casually sidesteps the racism layered on the sexism.

@Jhkim As noted above your example doesn't work for the reasons specified.

@Grognard GM It's Jhkim, he's gonna obfuscate like the good disngenuous leftist that he is.

I'm glad WOTC is putting their foot in it. Good opportunity for someone who doesn't hate the primary demographic that plays TTRPGs.

Quote from: Zelen on February 07, 2023, 01:43:54 AM
I'm glad WOTC is putting their foot in it. Good opportunity for someone who doesn't hate the primary demographic that plays TTRPGs.

If someone here wants to make some money, all they have to do is interview at D&D and if they get lucky, Kyle is part of the hiring process.  Now if you don't get the job, pay attention to linkedin at WotC and see who was hired for the position.  Were they a black quadriplegic gay furry?  Congratulations you got a lawsuit for discrimination in hiring practices.  Just bring up the quote in the lawsuit and have fun.  What Kyle did was fuck himself.  Either he openly discriminates in hiring so WotC can not allow him to take part in hiring OR he wants to get rid of white players and make way for the Great Replacement.  That last statement fucked Kyle in a number of ways outing him as being a racist.  He really needs a pink satin klan hood with a rainbow sewed on it.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Fucking outstanding! Now that we are trapped living in the insane, corrupt clownworld, these kinds of anti-white racism, race-hating, and nihilistic, self-loathing Marxist diarrhea proclamations are becoming the norm. GOOD! Let WOTC show everyone what racist, hateful assclowns they truly are. See the absolutely insulting, offensive philosophies and ideologies that are embraced and promoted by the leadership at WOTC? Suck it down. Savour the taste. Get used to more helpings of this BS.

This is what WOTC has become.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
So, white straight normal men can't leave the hobby fast enough for his tastes.

Are you gonna try and obfuscate as per usual?

I mean it really sounds to me like he said that normal straight white guys "can't leave the hobby fast enough", but it does sound like there are two conversational threads.

I will say that if he said it about Jews or women or whatever, he'd have backtracked that instant and made sure his statement was clear, to avoid any semblance of an -ism.  Here he did no such thing.

Quote from: Venka on February 07, 2023, 02:55:28 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
So, white straight normal men can't leave the hobby fast enough for his tastes.

Are you gonna try and obfuscate as per usual?

I mean it really sounds to me like he said that normal straight white guys "can't leave the hobby fast enough", but it does sound like there are two conversational threads.

I will say that if he said it about Jews or women or whatever, he'd have backtracked that instant and made sure his statement was clear, to avoid any semblance of an -ism.  Here he did no such thing.

He's also have been shredded by the people he was talking to, they'd have stopped the stream, and he'd have been fired before his headphones were off, then a gushing apology would follow from WOTC, pledging over the top reforms.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 07, 2023, 01:54:44 AM

Quote from: Zelen on February 07, 2023, 01:43:54 AM
I'm glad WOTC is putting their foot in it. Good opportunity for someone who doesn't hate the primary demographic that plays TTRPGs.

If someone here wants to make some money, all they have to do is interview at D&D and if they get lucky, Kyle is part of the hiring process.  Now if you don't get the job, pay attention to linkedin at WotC and see who was hired for the position.  Were they a black quadriplegic gay furry?  Congratulations you got a lawsuit for discrimination in hiring practices.  Just bring up the quote in the lawsuit and have fun.  What Kyle did was fuck himself.  Either he openly discriminates in hiring so WotC can not allow him to take part in hiring OR he wants to get rid of white players and make way for the Great Replacement.  That last statement fucked Kyle in a number of ways outing him as being a racist.  He really needs a pink satin klan hood with a rainbow sewed on it.

  The best thing an enemy can do for you is to openly tell you he is your enemy.  This allows you the moral fortitude to simply treat him as such.   My advice to all is to just let people telling you they are your enemy do so.  Then treat them as your enemy and be done.   I see way too much of people arguing back at folks who tell me they are my enemy (and I do it too).  I am done with that, if you state to me you are my enemy I believe you and treat you as such.  We should all start following that line of thinking.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 07, 2023, 05:45:22 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 07, 2023, 01:54:44 AM

Quote from: Zelen on February 07, 2023, 01:43:54 AM
I'm glad WOTC is putting their foot in it. Good opportunity for someone who doesn't hate the primary demographic that plays TTRPGs.

If someone here wants to make some money, all they have to do is interview at D&D and if they get lucky, Kyle is part of the hiring process.  Now if you don't get the job, pay attention to linkedin at WotC and see who was hired for the position.  Were they a black quadriplegic gay furry?  Congratulations you got a lawsuit for discrimination in hiring practices.  Just bring up the quote in the lawsuit and have fun.  What Kyle did was fuck himself.  Either he openly discriminates in hiring so WotC can not allow him to take part in hiring OR he wants to get rid of white players and make way for the Great Replacement.  That last statement fucked Kyle in a number of ways outing him as being a racist.  He really needs a pink satin klan hood with a rainbow sewed on it.

  The best thing an enemy can do for you is to openly tell you he is your enemy.  This allows you the moral fortitude to simply treat him as such.   My advice to all is to just let people telling you they are your enemy do so.  Then treat them as your enemy and be done.   I see way too much of people arguing back at folks who tell me they are my enemy (and I do it too).  I am done with that, if you state to me you are my enemy I believe you and treat you as such.  We should all start following that line of thinking.

Yep. This is simply an example of socially acceptable racism, and it's disgusting.

Quote from: Kyle BrinkAnd I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

It was never a correct assumption. But if the guy whose qualifications (https://www.linkedin.com/in/gamesmith/) to try to run the D&D brand are his previous work on Guild Wars wants to leave, we won't miss him.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 07, 2023, 05:53:36 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 07, 2023, 05:45:22 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 07, 2023, 01:54:44 AM

Quote from: Zelen on February 07, 2023, 01:43:54 AM
I'm glad WOTC is putting their foot in it. Good opportunity for someone who doesn't hate the primary demographic that plays TTRPGs.

If someone here wants to make some money, all they have to do is interview at D&D and if they get lucky, Kyle is part of the hiring process.  Now if you don't get the job, pay attention to linkedin at WotC and see who was hired for the position.  Were they a black quadriplegic gay furry?  Congratulations you got a lawsuit for discrimination in hiring practices.  Just bring up the quote in the lawsuit and have fun.  What Kyle did was fuck himself.  Either he openly discriminates in hiring so WotC can not allow him to take part in hiring OR he wants to get rid of white players and make way for the Great Replacement.  That last statement fucked Kyle in a number of ways outing him as being a racist.  He really needs a pink satin klan hood with a rainbow sewed on it.

  The best thing an enemy can do for you is to openly tell you he is your enemy.  This allows you the moral fortitude to simply treat him as such.   My advice to all is to just let people telling you they are your enemy do so.  Then treat them as your enemy and be done.   I see way too much of people arguing back at folks who tell me they are my enemy (and I do it too).  I am done with that, if you state to me you are my enemy I believe you and treat you as such.  We should all start following that line of thinking.

Yep. This is simply an example of socially acceptable racism, and it's disgusting.

  I would also stop using the word racism. It has ZERO meaning now it seems a word mostly used by my enemies to just mean white people need to die.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 02:58:25 AM

Quote from: Venka on February 07, 2023, 02:55:28 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
So, white straight normal men can't leave the hobby fast enough for his tastes.

Are you gonna try and obfuscate as per usual?

I mean it really sounds to me like he said that normal straight white guys "can't leave the hobby fast enough", but it does sound like there are two conversational threads.

I will say that if he said it about Jews or women or whatever, he'd have backtracked that instant and made sure his statement was clear, to avoid any semblance of an -ism.  Here he did no such thing.

He's also have been shredded by the people he was talking to, they'd have stopped the stream, and he'd have been fired before his headphones were off, then a gushing apology would follow from WOTC, pledging over the top reforms.

Unfortunately whats more likely is the useful idiots nodded sagely in agreement. Disgusted at their own horrible whiteness.

Well, I'm in agreement with him to be fair. I can't wait for 'guys like him' to leave the hobby. So good riddance to those self-flagellating sycophants.

At the end of the day, just I just ignore those insipid creeps and game away. Us 'real' honky cracka's are never going to leave the hobby.  ;D

Quote from: Omega on February 07, 2023, 06:07:30 AM
nodded sagely in agreement.

I found that utterly hilarious and deeply weird at the same time.  ;D

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on February 07, 2023, 05:55:43 AM
But if the guy whose qualifications (https://www.linkedin.com/in/gamesmith/) to try to run the D&D brand are his previous work on Guild Wars wants to leave, we won't miss him.

Come on, he graduated from a perfectly good online diploma factory after flunking out of Humboldt State (a.k.a. Ganja U, for those unfamiliar). Clearly we cannot comprehend his genius!

What a tool.

The Guild Wars background doesn't bother me. What astounds me is (a) it's an amazingly dumb thing to say out loud, and (b) as people have noted, this neatly puts WotC in the crosshairs for discrimination lawsuits.

(There's a weird kind of symmetry here. ArenaNet turfed Jessica Price for being a narcissistic cunt and picking a fight with one of their biggest streamers, Deroir. Brink went from ArenaNet to WotC, as did Price. Hm.)

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 07, 2023, 09:16:26 AM
The Guild Wars background doesn't bother me. What astounds me is (a) it's an amazingly dumb thing to say out loud, and (b) as people have noted, this neatly puts WotC in the crosshairs for discrimination lawsuits.

(There's a weird kind of symmetry here. ArenaNet turfed Jessica Price for being a narcissistic cunt and picking a fight with one of their biggest streamers, Deroir. Brink went from ArenaNet to WotC, as did Price. Hm.)

At DnD Beyond they are blocking any mention of that comment from him on the interview.  My favorite is how everyone is stating it was such a good interview there.   It's cute because its being posted on social media in a few places so far.  It's not a major blow up, but it does show perceived bias by Kyle against Whites.   

Use the lefts rules against them: "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."   DnD is anti-racist so let's make them explain publicly to the player base why Kyle making an anti-white statement isn't racist.  If enough pressure can be built, it will be quite entertaining listening to them try to make a statement to moderates/conservatives about how it wasn't racist for Kyle to be anti-white.

If "white guys like me can't leave fast enough", why didn't he immediately announce his resignation?

What a hypocritical racist scum.  If he doesn't deserve his position because he's white, why does he still have it?  I cannot take seriously anyone on the "Whiteness is Evil" grift.

I've played D&D of and on since 1974.  Yes, there were times when it was just white pre-teens and teens, all male in a basement...though TBH we definitely had more gays represented than in the general population.  But if a girl wanted to join us, we'd probably fall over ourselves welcoming her (even if she wasn't hot--I mean, none of us were exactly 10s).  And the town I grew up in was nearly 100% white.  So yeah, the stereotype sometimes is true--often is true.  But it wasn't some kind of conspiracy (even an unconscious one) to keep out non-whites or girls.

But I guess we can just all go to hell according to him.  So screw him and his company.

Marxist inclusivity makes no sense, does it.

The ultimate conclusion for that line of thought is that Kyle should commit suicide, as should every white guy that agrees with him.  When that's the logical outcome of your "thought", you are a poster child for "useful idiot". 

So while I agree with oggsmash as far as it goes, I'd say in this particular case the enemy is sitting behind the cannon fodder.  Doesn't change the suggested course of action, though.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
Here's what I got of his actual words, for what it's worth.

Quote
Kyle Brink:
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.

And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

I take it Kyle Brink has never been to a TTRPG convention.   

Kyle is a self-loathing racist? Color me shocked.

jhkim is being disingenuous? Color me shocked.

Why do I not *feel* shocked? Oh yeah... because reality is.

Quote from: tenbones on February 07, 2023, 10:41:34 AM
Kyle is a self-loathing racist? Color me shocked.

jhkim is being disingenuous? Color me shocked.

Why do I not *feel* shocked? Oh yeah... because reality is.

He should be made to apologize publicly.  If enough complaints were made about that comment, he'd have to.  And then you continue personal attacks on him till he's forced to resign.  How do you think the left rousted Matt Mearls and gave us super woke D&D vs woke light D&D?

You can't squeeze water out of rocks.

But if you're advocating that you just want to squeeze rocks to see if you can get some water out of it... well I think there are some unspoken desires at play here. LOL

Waiting to see if white males are over represented in 6e art.
That was the stated reason for people of color being kept out of RPGs after all.

As I see it, there is a division with 100% white male bosses -- then one of the bosses does an interview, and because of his phrasing in a two second bit, others conclude that white males are an oppressed class within the division.

I'd at least consider the possibility that Kyle is not telling the truth. That he is fine with his boss position and power, and he is going overboard in saying what he thinks the interviewer wants to hear. I don't know Kyle as a person, but I have very low trust in Hasbro/WotC in general.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 01:04:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:40:37 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:19:58 AM
Lets make an experiment, whenever he talks about white people/men substitute it for jews/women, done? If it makes you recoil at the racism the statement was racist/sexist from the start.

So in this experiment, there's a company where 100% of the top positions of power are all filled by women. (Something in child care or cute stuffed animals, maybe?) And the customer base was falsely assumed to be all female in the past, but has more and more men in the present.

So a woman executive says that she welcomes men into the company, and that people like her can't get out of the way fast enough.

It seems a little farfetched, but I think I could picture it.

To be comparable it would need to be a company that has historically been full of women who were really good at the job, were attracted to the job because they love the industry, and spaces were always open to men, but men just weren't interested.

Then the industry suddenly attracts men that hate it, but want in anyway. So a shitheel exec goes on a tear about how the industry will be better once the people who always enjoyed and supported it make way for the fly-by-night male activists who want to burn it to the ground.

There, now your disingenuous comparison works better.

EDIT: And I just noticed how your example casually sidesteps the racism layered on the sexism.

I'm fine with the underlined part. However, I completely disagree that the women playing D&D hate it but want to get in just to burn it to the ground -- or the same for non-white D&D players. White men were the core demographic in the early days, but there have been other demographics involved since long before the recent woke controversy.

So I don't think your revised comparison works as a parallel for D&D. Women and non-white people have always been involved in D&D, and have been playing and creating for it for decades because they enjoy it as a game.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 11:38:14 AM
As I see it, there is a division with 100% white male bosses -- then one of the bosses does an interview, and because of his phrasing in a two second bit, others conclude that white males are an oppressed class within the division.

I'd at least consider the possibility that Kyle is not telling the truth. That he is fine with his boss position and power, and he is going overboard in saying what he thinks the interviewer wants to hear. I don't know Kyle as a person, but I have very low trust in Hasbro/WotC in general.

jhkim, nobody believes he believes it. That's not the point.

  The defense appears to be that Brink is talking about the creative direction or the face of the game ... but in this hobby, the boundaries between those roles and 'standard' users/consumers have always been rather porous. Or is this another way to justify restricting the game to only WotC-created, properly diverse content? :)

   

Credit where it is due: Thanks to Jhkim for the direct quote.

At the least the OP should have thrown in a timestamp. IMHO...

Quote from: Mr. Brink: The whitest guy in the room on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
...
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

Actually, yes. Yes 'guys like you' are still very much the majority in the hobby.

Even out here in the SF bay area; go to any con, and guess what? The majority are still white dudes.

Granted, out here in the bay area they are mostly woke as fuck, but to their utter horror; they're still white.

Quote from: Mr. Brink: The whitest guy in the room on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
...there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

This guy is a Rhetorical Goldmine...

Brink/Wotzi will deserve every ounce of pounding that they will get for this quote.

It's just too good not to hammer Wotzi with.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 07, 2023, 12:39:56 PM
Credit where it is due: Thanks to Jhkim for the direct quote.

At the least the OP should have thrown in a timestamp. IMHO...

Quote from: Mr. Brink: The whitest guy in the room on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
...
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

When you click the link its set to start right at the moment the quote begins,.
Actually, yes. Yes 'guys like you' are still very much the majority in the hobby.

Even out here in the SF bay area; go to any con, and guess what? The majority are still white dudes.

Granted, out here in the bay area they are mostly woke as fuck, but to their utter horror; they're still white.

Quote from: Mr. Brink: The whitest guy in the room on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
...there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

This guy is a Rhetorical Goldmine...

Brink/Wotzi will deserve every ounce of pounding that they will get for this quote.

It's just too good not to hammer Wotzi with.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 11:38:14 AM
As I see it, there is a division with 100% white male bosses -- then one of the bosses does an interview, and because of his phrasing in a two second bit, others conclude that white males are an oppressed class within the division.

I'd at least consider the possibility that Kyle is not telling the truth. That he is fine with his boss position and power, and he is going overboard in saying what he thinks the interviewer wants to hear. I don't know Kyle as a person, but I have very low trust in Hasbro/WotC in general.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 01:04:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:40:37 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:19:58 AM
Lets make an experiment, whenever he talks about white people/men substitute it for jews/women, done? If it makes you recoil at the racism the statement was racist/sexist from the start.

So in this experiment, there's a company where 100% of the top positions of power are all filled by women. (Something in child care or cute stuffed animals, maybe?) And the customer base was falsely assumed to be all female in the past, but has more and more men in the present.

So a woman executive says that she welcomes men into the company, and that people like her can't get out of the way fast enough.

It seems a little farfetched, but I think I could picture it.

To be comparable it would need to be a company that has historically been full of women who were really good at the job, were attracted to the job because they love the industry, and spaces were always open to men, but men just weren't interested.

Then the industry suddenly attracts men that hate it, but want in anyway. So a shitheel exec goes on a tear about how the industry will be better once the people who always enjoyed and supported it make way for the fly-by-night male activists who want to burn it to the ground.

There, now your disingenuous comparison works better.

EDIT: And I just noticed how your example casually sidesteps the racism layered on the sexism.

I'm fine with the underlined part. However, I completely disagree that the women playing D&D hate it but want to get in just to burn it to the ground -- or the same for non-white D&D players. White men were the core demographic in the early days, but there have been other demographics involved since long before the recent woke controversy.

So I don't think your revised comparison works as a parallel for D&D. Women and non-white people have always been involved in D&D, and have been playing and creating for it for decades because they enjoy it as a game.

So why is there a need for racistg and sexist discriminaing hiring practices to have more "diversity"?

Mind you, IMHO there's NEVER a need for discrimination, but then again I'm not a progressive, you are the one on the side that has to deffend racism, sexism, discrimination and segregation (and anti miscegentaion too).

Quote from: oggsmash on February 07, 2023, 05:57:46 AM
  I would also stop using the word racism. It has ZERO meaning now it seems a word mostly used by my enemies to just mean white people need to die.

   They shifted the definition sometime in the 90s from "animus based on someone's skin color or ethnic background" to "being in a (putatively) socially privileged position and not aligned with progressive Newthink", but are still relying on the opprobrium attached to the older definition.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 07, 2023, 02:48:14 PM
   They shifted the definition sometime in the 90s from

Not quite.  Dictionaries still have a definition that is race-blind, though it has moved quite substantially from something about animus based on race to something meaningless like " The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability", mostly so that it can apply to all the potential enemies who might point to a graph or a statistic gathered impartially.  But the dictionary definition doesn't mean, for instance "prejudice plus power".

That second shifting definition isn't meant to accomplish "prejudice plus power", or anything like that- it's solely meant to mean "racism is something white people do to non-whites, and we're leaving the option open to call someone of Asian descent racist maybe if they are being racist to certain non-whites".  Whatever definition they give you is 100% absolute garbage, and the test is to simply find an exception and see if anyone will decry it as racist.  For instance, if a black woman is the CEO and shits all over some white worker based on race, you will see that suddenly, oh no, not that kind of power, we mean, uh, institutional power.  So then if you point to white farmers having their farms taken in Nigeria, uh no sweety, not that institution.  The definition is meaningless- it's just a word used to attack white people.

There's probably still some merit to using the term "racist" by a definition as still understood by most people (animus against a person based on their race), but it's only useful in explaining things to normal people.  A better term is "anti-white" because it cannot be misunderstood by anyone.  If someone points out that saying that whites can't get out of leadership positions fast enough, as this guy has probably stated, pointing out that this is racist will get the point across to someone who has a normal understanding of race politics and discussion, but provides an entire bonus thread by some pinhead anti-white zealot where they have a descending tree of arguments based on the status of the day.

Meanwhile, if you just call it anti-white, everyone understands what you mean, and it is actually more accurate- because it doesn't matter if a non-white country bans being white, that's somehow not going to count as racism, and whatever metric they claim to be in favor of today will shift to what it has to be tomorrow to continue aiming the word "racist" exclusively at white people, and never at someone looking to oppress a white person.

I'm not sure Mr Brink's been to a convention or an FLGS recently or maybe I only go to the wrong ones, but the "face of the hobby" as I've seen it is still white dudes.  Those are the folks at the conventions and the ones running the FLGSes.  I know that it's trendy now to dunk on whites, but you'd think someone trying to sell a product wouldn't go out of their way to offend their customer base.  Maybe with the OGL dust up the powers that be at WoTC are trying to do a reset and just dump all the OSR gamers to cleanse the culture of their VTT space.


I never cared for 5e so I'm in the set of old white guys who've left already.

Quote from: JackFS4 on February 07, 2023, 03:11:40 PMI know that it's trendy now to dunk on whites, but you'd think someone trying to sell a product wouldn't go out of their way to offend their customer base.

The cultural zeitgeist is that if you're a white guy, you just gotta suck it up.
I think the reason he is saying this sort of stuff is for the self-validation brownies and ESG points.

"Oh man, im working on something SOOO diverse! For realz! Give me money and praise!"

Well now Clownfish is covering this thread..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H42EYmHCmwU

Quote from: Osman Gazi on February 07, 2023, 09:32:54 AM
If "white guys like me can't leave fast enough", why didn't he immediately announce his resignation?

Exactly - why doesn't he lead by example and fuck off. As usual it is 'rules for you but not for me' in typical leftist fashion.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 07, 2023, 02:48:14 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 07, 2023, 05:57:46 AM
  I would also stop using the word racism. It has ZERO meaning now it seems a word mostly used by my enemies to just mean white people need to die.

   They shifted the definition sometime in the 90s from "animus based on someone's skin color or ethnic background" to "being in a (putatively) socially privileged position and not aligned with progressive Newthink", but are still relying on the opprobrium attached to the older definition.

Yeah, I avoid using the term "racist" because there is no agreement on what it means. For example, I had a number of discussions with user Alathon here on this forum. He's openly ethno-nationalist, and claims that "separate but equal" single-ethnic societies are better for all races. He stated that the United States should be white for white people, while China should be Chinese for Chinese people, etc. Is that racist? He didn't express any hatred or attack me simply for my race, so if we define racism solely based on animus, then maybe he shouldn't be considered racist.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 02:33:57 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 11:38:14 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 01:04:15 AM
Then the industry suddenly attracts men that hate it, but want in anyway. So a shitheel exec goes on a tear about how the industry will be better once the people who always enjoyed and supported it make way for the fly-by-night male activists who want to burn it to the ground.

I don't think your revised comparison works as a parallel for D&D. Women and non-white people have always been involved in D&D, and have been playing and creating for it for decades because they enjoy it as a game.

So why is there a need for racistg and sexist discriminaing hiring practices to have more "diversity"?

I don't know WotC's hiring practices, past or present, and never made any claims about it. It might have been discriminatory in the past. It might be discriminatory now. I don't know.

Kyle Brinks makes some statements in the interview, but I don't trust or endorse anything he says.

The most I could say is conditional. If there was bias at WotC in the past in favor of white men, which lead to the current 100% white male management, then I think some sort of corrective action might be appropriate. But that depends on the specific situation.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 05:40:10 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 07, 2023, 02:48:14 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 07, 2023, 05:57:46 AM
  I would also stop using the word racism. It has ZERO meaning now it seems a word mostly used by my enemies to just mean white people need to die.

   They shifted the definition sometime in the 90s from "animus based on someone's skin color or ethnic background" to "being in a (putatively) socially privileged position and not aligned with progressive Newthink", but are still relying on the opprobrium attached to the older definition.

Yeah, I avoid using the term "racist" because there is no agreement on what it means. For example, I had a number of discussions with user Alathon here on this forum. He's openly ethno-nationalist, and claims that "separate but equal" single-ethnic societies are better for all races. He stated that the United States should be white for white people, while China should be Chinese for Chinese people, etc. Is that racist? He didn't express any hatred or attack me simply for my race, so if we define racism solely based on animus, then maybe he shouldn't be considered racist.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 02:33:57 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 11:38:14 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 01:04:15 AM
Then the industry suddenly attracts men that hate it, but want in anyway. So a shitheel exec goes on a tear about how the industry will be better once the people who always enjoyed and supported it make way for the fly-by-night male activists who want to burn it to the ground.

I don't think your revised comparison works as a parallel for D&D. Women and non-white people have always been involved in D&D, and have been playing and creating for it for decades because they enjoy it as a game.

So why is there a need for racistg and sexist discriminaing hiring practices to have more "diversity"?

I don't know WotC's hiring practices, past or present, and never made any claims about it. It might have been discriminatory in the past. It might be discriminatory now. I don't know.

Kyle Brinks makes some statements in the interview, but I don't trust or endorse anything he says.

The most I could say is conditional. If there was bias at WotC in the past in favor of white men, which lead to the current 100% white male management, then I think some sort of corrective action might be appropriate. But that depends on the specific situation.

So you adhere to the "You only can fix past discrimination with present day discrimination" school of thought.

No Jhkim, the ONLY fix is to stop discriminating.

Now, since you strike me (I might be wrong) as the type to buy the social constructivist shit let me point out that the experiment has been done, the more you flatten the societal forces the more the differences in career choices accentuate.

Unless of course you think India is more igualitarian than the nordic countries like sweden. If you do believe that I have a bridge in Shit Fransycko for sale dirt cheap.

There was no bias in the past. Companies chase after the costumers. Initially it was mostly white nerds that were willing to risk the social stigma of wargaming or role playing so companies marketed to them. Then when the stigma was almost entirely gone johnny come lately complain that they were ignored and things must be adjusted to right wrongs.

If you want more people of color and women and gays to play that is fine. Do what it takes to draw in those audiences. Certainly something must attract them other than attacking the white male audience that has been with the game for decades. Do a poll, figure out what might draw them in, chase the customers.

(Looks at cratering sales and mass migration of the masses to other rpg systems)
"I know!  I'll say something stupid!  That'll get 'em back!"

-good Christ, this whole fiasco is going to wind up in a college business textbook in a few years methinks.

I agree with him.  Guys like him should exit this hobby as fast as possible.  The less douchebags around, the better.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 05:47:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 05:40:10 PM
The most I could say is conditional. If there was bias at WotC in the past in favor of white men, which lead to the current 100% white male management, then I think some sort of corrective action might be appropriate. But that depends on the specific situation.

So you adhere to the "You only can fix past discrimination with present day discrimination" school of thought.

No Jhkim, the ONLY fix is to stop discriminating.

I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

Greetings!

Clownfish is awesome. Kneon made some outstanding commentary. With WOTC, this is all a reflection and consequence of them embracing Woke politics. As an RPG company, if they were truly committed to the gaming hobby, their customers, and demonstrating genuine leadership, everyone should be welcomed as customers and gamers. WOTC shouldn't be talking about politics, sex, or race. AT ALL. WOTC and its executives should be talking about campaigns, gaming, adventure modules, DM's, and an assortment of gaming-related topics.

They can't do that, however. Woke ideology an Woke activists--being rooted in Marxism--are constantly embracing and agitating for conflict and "revolution". Criticize, complain, protest, march--this is what their daily lives revolve around. ACTIVISM. This is what the Woke Marxists are involved with, and activism is what consumes their lives.

Understanding that dynamic, it is easy then to see how that kind of ideological corruption just consumes companies and absolutely ruins them. It really does make them incapable of creating anything--because everything must serve the Narrative, the mission. Everything must be involved, somehow, in activism, in spreading and promoting the narrative.

This is why WOTC has failed, and will continue to fail spectacularly, and decline. Certainly as a genuine RPG company.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 07:08:42 PM
Greetings!

Clownfish is awesome. Kneon made some outstanding commentary. With WOTC, this is all a reflection and consequence of them embracing Woke politics. As an RPG company, if they were truly committed to the gaming hobby, their customers, and demonstrating genuine leadership, everyone should be welcomed as customers and gamers. WOTC shouldn't be talking about politics, sex, or race. AT ALL. WOTC and its executives should be talking about campaigns, gaming, adventure modules, DM's, and an assortment of gaming-related topics.

They can't do that, however. Woke ideology an Woke activists--being rooted in Marxism--are constantly embracing and agitating for conflict and "revolution". Criticize, complain, protest, march--this is what their daily lives revolve around. ACTIVISM. This is what the Woke Marxists are involved with, and activism is what consumes their lives.

Understanding that dynamic, it is easy then to see how that kind of ideological corruption just consumes companies and absolutely ruins them. It really does make them incapable of creating anything--because everything must serve the Narrative, the mission. Everything must be involved, somehow, in activism, in spreading and promoting the narrative.

This is why WOTC has failed, and will continue to fail spectacularly, and decline. Certainly as a genuine RPG company.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

WOTC happily caved to woke activists to fire Mearls and WotC immediately went down hill.  WOTC believed that if they put up the BLM and LGBTABC123 flag that the left would quit hurting and the right never would.  Well, the right has money and are spending money elsewhere and you bet your bippy conservatives chimed in and made the OGL controversy 10X's worse than it would have been.  And you know Brink making classic leftwing racist comments directed towards white is getting bosted by conservatives sick of D&D spewing this crap.  The left turned D&D against its customer base, ok, the customer base leaves and what is left burns D&D down by making D&D play by its own rules.  It took the left about 5 years of concerted effort to turn public D&D woke.  Lets see how many years of concerted rebellion against D&D when it puts out woke and racist talking points does to D&D's bottom line.

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 07:08:42 PM
Greetings!

Clownfish is awesome. Kneon made some outstanding commentary. With WOTC, this is all a reflection and consequence of them embracing Woke politics. As an RPG company, if they were truly committed to the gaming hobby, their customers, and demonstrating genuine leadership, everyone should be welcomed as customers and gamers. WOTC shouldn't be talking about politics, sex, or race. AT ALL. WOTC and its executives should be talking about campaigns, gaming, adventure modules, DM's, and an assortment of gaming-related topics.

They can't do that, however. Woke ideology an Woke activists--being rooted in Marxism--are constantly embracing and agitating for conflict and "revolution". Criticize, complain, protest, march--this is what their daily lives revolve around. ACTIVISM. This is what the Woke Marxists are involved with, and activism is what consumes their lives.

Understanding that dynamic, it is easy then to see how that kind of ideological corruption just consumes companies and absolutely ruins them. It really does make them incapable of creating anything--because everything must serve the Narrative, the mission. Everything must be involved, somehow, in activism, in spreading and promoting the narrative.

This is why WOTC has failed, and will continue to fail spectacularly, and decline. Certainly as a genuine RPG company.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

WOTC happily caved to woke activists to fire Mearls and WotC immediately went down hill.  WOTC believed that if they put up the BLM and LGBTABC123 don't hurt me flag that the left would quit hurting them and the right never would.  Well, the right has money and are spending money elsewhere and you bet your bippy conservatives chimed in and made the OGL controversy 10X's worse than it would have been.  And you know Brink making classic leftwing racist comments directed towards white is getting boosted by conservatives sick of D&D spewing this crap.  The left turned D&D against its customer base, ok, the customer base leaves and what is left burns D&D down by making D&D play by its own rules.  It took the left about 5 years of concerted effort to turn public D&D woke.  Lets see how many years of concerted rebellion against D&D when it puts out woke and racist talking points does to D&D's bottom line.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 05:47:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 05:40:10 PM
The most I could say is conditional. If there was bias at WotC in the past in favor of white men, which lead to the current 100% white male management, then I think some sort of corrective action might be appropriate. But that depends on the specific situation.

So you adhere to the "You only can fix past discrimination with present day discrimination" school of thought.

No Jhkim, the ONLY fix is to stop discriminating.

I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.

Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.

For example, men way overrepresented in tech? Well men and women are interchangeable, so men must be keeping women out! All the money and effort you threw at getting women in to tech, and it's barely moved the needle?  Let's start artificially blocking men and only accepting women, even if the men have better scores or skills. For the sacred tenet of equity must be honored!

"Diversity" is just codeword for Anti-Whiteness, just like "Equity" is codeword for communism and "Inclusion" is just codeword for "Kick out Whites".

But is any of this really a surprise? The left believes they can win a race war.

It's why crime news reports have been slanted only one way for years now, regardless of how many Whites are murdered simply out of racial hate. It's why open borders is the defacto policy of Western nations controlled by leftists. This isn't an accident and the Brink Bitch is just saying the quiet part out loud, which is the new normal. In the left's delusion, their SJW Utopia can only be achieved after Whites - especially White men - are broken.

As I've posted many times, it's high time for a National Divorce.

One of the key aspects of pre-secession is the development of a Parallel Economy. AKA, we have businesses on our side who we support instead of the leftist mainstream.

The OGL led to three Parallel Economies in the D&D-adjacent RPG world as exemplified by Pathfinder, the OSR and the 5e 3PPs - each with their own audiences. As the OGL 1.2 debacle appears to be settled with the 5.1 SRD becoming part of Creative Commons, those Parallel Economies will continue onward increasingly separate from WotC as they launch 6e.

I personally will not support WotC in the future, as they had already lost me years ago.

And my gaming will only benefit.

Quote from: Skullking on February 07, 2023, 04:45:20 PM

Quote from: Osman Gazi on February 07, 2023, 09:32:54 AM
If "white guys like me can't leave fast enough", why didn't he immediately announce his resignation?

Exactly - why doesn't he lead by example and fuck off. As usual it is 'rules for you but not for me' in typical leftist fashion.

Because, and it should be blindingly obvious by now, progressives have always believed that minorities are incapable of governing themselves, incapable of looking after themselves, and need to be led into the promised land by white liberals.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM

I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

So if a dude won't bake a gay wedding cake, he should lose his business, right?

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 05:47:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 05:40:10 PM
The most I could say is conditional. If there was bias at WotC in the past in favor of white men, which lead to the current 100% white male management, then I think some sort of corrective action might be appropriate. But that depends on the specific situation.

So you adhere to the "You only can fix past discrimination with present day discrimination" school of thought.

No Jhkim, the ONLY fix is to stop discriminating.

I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

Where do I say anything about society-wide anything?

You can't prove discrimination, and differences in outcome don't prove discrimination (might point to it but by themselves don't prove it)

Without a lawsuit how do you propose wotzi fixes the "discrimination" that hasn't been proven to exist?

So, without a lawsuit what should be the "consequences"?

Why would you come out with "consequences" when we're talking about wotzi potentially discrimionating hiring practices TODAY against white straight males?

Are those white straight males "guilty" of whatever your feverish brain imagines wotzi did in the past?

How is it discriminating in the present against innocent people "fix" any discrimination in the past (granting you it did occur when you can't prove it)?

Quote from: Brad on February 07, 2023, 08:11:05 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM

I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

So if a dude won't bake a gay wedding cake, he should lose his business, right?

The dude was willing to bake the cake, he wasn't willing to write on it what the activists wanted him to. There's a HUGE difference.

 :'( But I already flipped my table and declared WotC dead to me Jan 2023... I can't keep flipping my table and declare WotC dead to me every single month of 2023!  ??? It's redundant and exhausting.  ;) Huh, just like WotC... touché WotC, touché.

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 07, 2023, 08:22:31 PM
:'( But I already flipped my table and declared WotC dead to me Jan 2023... I can't keep flipping my table and declare WotC dead to me every single month of 2023!  ??? It's redundant and exhausting.  ;) Huh, just like WotC... touché WotC, touché.

Flip it back up. You get to express your rage while tidying up from the last rage.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 08:19:55 PM
The dude was willing to bake the cake, he wasn't willing to write on it what the activists wanted him to. There's a HUGE difference.

He deserves to be burned at the stake for daring to have any sort of morals, you bigot.

Quote from: Brad on February 07, 2023, 08:32:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 08:19:55 PM
The dude was willing to bake the cake, he wasn't willing to write on it what the activists wanted him to. There's a HUGE difference.

He deserves to be burned at the stake for daring to have any sort of morals, you bigot.

I'll drag myself to the nearest re-education camp ASAP comrade!  ;D

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 08:19:55 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 07, 2023, 08:11:05 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM
If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

So if a dude won't bake a gay wedding cake, he should lose his business, right?

The dude was willing to bake the cake, he wasn't willing to write on it what the activists wanted him to. There's a HUGE difference.

This is pretty off-topic, but I agree with GeekyBugle on this principle. There is a huge difference between refusing to make any sort of cake for someone just because they're gay, and refusing to write a particular message.

That's why I support the Ashers Baking Company in their case, where they refused to write "Support Gay Marriage" on a cake. They shouldn't have to write a message they disagree with.

When it's discriminatory is if they're willing to make a cake for non-gay customers, but won't make the exact same cake design for gay customers.

I'd like to critically dissect this statement.

QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?

Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.

First off, what an absurdly irrelevent question. Why not ask about religious diversity, or political diversity, in high-ranking positions? The question wasn't even related to gaming, it was just a softball meant only to open a wedge to virtue signal about "omg, look how open and inclusive we are." The answer (at least in this snippet) is nothing short of expected from these types of lunatics.

QuoteThese are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.

Taken by itself, this part sounds perfectly reasonable. It sounds like WotC hires/promotes based of merit. "You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire," however, sounds like he's admitting they hire based on diversity quotas. I mean, of course they do, but they rarely admit it so openly.

QuoteGuys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.

Ohh, the thinly-veiled racism!
"Lived experience" is OBVIOUSLY tied to "looks" (i.e., skin color), right? Because their aren't poor white folk living in economically depressed areas without easy access to the opportunities available to them. I think the Welfare statistics put the lie to that.

QuoteAnd I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

Two points here.
1) There's always been girls and people of other ethnicities interested in gaming. Not a lot, but they were there. Some people just aren't interested in certain things, AND THAT'S OKAY. When I was in automotive shop in school, there was one girl in my class. Meanwhile the hairdressing shop had zero boys. Hmmm... I wonder why that was...?

This idea that people of particular demographics need to be injected into hobbies, and that other people need to "leave" or be forcably ejected is just disgusting. It's one step short of classism: "you belong here, because I said so."

2) He's conflating DnD with the hobby in general. It's probably true that "cis, white men" are leaving DnD, but they aren't leaving the hobby. Fucktards like Kyle live in a bubble where they think only the things they see is the entire world. He's only looking at it through a lens of race & gender (white men are leaving; other demographics are going up)... I'd be interested to see the split along political /cultural lines, which I suspect paints a much clearer picture.

QuoteAnd we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.

Blah blah, bullshit, blah blah blah.

QuoteI always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach.

Oh, how interesting! So if there are people "smarter" than you, and you promote based on merit like you claim, then maybe step down and let those smarter people take over. Oh, wait... he doesn't actually believe that. It's just false humility because he thinks these people he hires are idiots. It's just soft-bigotry.

QuoteSo as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.

Coming Soon: Dungeons & Dragons: Oops! All Orcs edition.

Greetings!

The MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE WHITE MEN. If Brink doesn't like that fact, or anyone else, too bad. SUCK IT.

I'm so sick of these racist fuckers. Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.

Despite the large increase in popularity for attracting women and minority gamers--the majority are still WHITE MEN. At every game convention I have been to, and at my local game store, on the various game nights, the majority are still WHITE MEN.

GOOD! These game company executives need to be worried about creating good games, writing good books--and not worried about the sex or ethnicity of who gamers are. There are various games and interests that appeal to a majority of "X"--whether that is basketball, or quilting. Who cares? Noone cares that many such interests have few white men attending them or participating. Gaming is no different. It is what it is. Let the people interested in the hobby play, and don't worry about whether they are women or men, or what colour their skin is.

These morons at WOTC are disgusting. Oh, and yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps, I had LOTS of gamers participate. Many were minorities, too. Black, Asian, Hispanic. Strange thing though--none of them ever said we need to have fewer white guys playing, and get more minority gamers! None of them EVER aid anything like that. They were all glad to have anyone join up and play D&D. Every Marine was welcoming to others wanting to play, regardless of their race.

I guess all of the different Marines I gamed with--from different races, all over the fucking country, from New York, Chicago, Miami, Texas, Colorado, to Alaska, Hawaii, and California, and everywhere in between, didn't get the same memo that thisclownat WOTC has gotten.

I also had some Marines from Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Philippines! Imagine that? They game too! They all liked D&D. And none of them, or any of the white Marine gamers, were racist against anyone. Fuck this clown at WOTC. This moron is so insulting. Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 11:27:21 PM
Greetings!

The MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE WHITE MEN. If Brink doesn't like that fact, or anyone else, too bad. SUCK IT.

I'm so sick of these racist fuckers. Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.

Despite the large increase in popularity for attracting women and minority gamers--the majority are still WHITE MEN. At every game convention I have been to, and at my local game store, on the various game nights, the majority are still WHITE MEN.

GOOD! These game company executives need to be worried about creating good games, writing good books--and not worried about the sex or ethnicity of who gamers are. There are various games and interests that appeal to a majority of "X"--whether that is basketball, or quilting. Who cares? Noone cares that many such interests have few white men attending them or participating. Gaming is no different. It is what it is. Let the people interested in the hobby play, and don't worry about whether they are women or men, or what colour their skin is.

These morons at WOTC are disgusting. Oh, and yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps, I had LOTS of gamers participate. Many were minorities, too. Black, Asian, Hispanic. Strange thing though--none of them ever said we need to have fewer white guys playing, and get more minority gamers! None of them EVER aid anything like that. They were all glad to have anyone join up and play D&D. Every Marine was welcoming to others wanting to play, regardless of their race.

I guess all of the different Marines I gamed with--from different races, all over the fucking country, from New York, Chicago, Miami, Texas, Colorado, to Alaska, Hawaii, and California, and everywhere in between, didn't get the same memo that thisclownat WOTC has gotten.

I also had some Marines from Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Philippines! Imagine that? They game too! They all liked D&D. And none of them, or any of the white Marine gamers, were racist against anyone. Fuck this clown at WOTC. This moron is so insulting. Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well put hermano but you forget one very important thing:

In the Marine corps there's no "White" or "Black" there is only two colors, light and dark green.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 11:35:27 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 11:27:21 PM
Greetings!

The MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE WHITE MEN. If Brink doesn't like that fact, or anyone else, too bad. SUCK IT.

I'm so sick of these racist fuckers. Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.

Despite the large increase in popularity for attracting women and minority gamers--the majority are still WHITE MEN. At every game convention I have been to, and at my local game store, on the various game nights, the majority are still WHITE MEN.

GOOD! These game company executives need to be worried about creating good games, writing good books--and not worried about the sex or ethnicity of who gamers are. There are various games and interests that appeal to a majority of "X"--whether that is basketball, or quilting. Who cares? Noone cares that many such interests have few white men attending them or participating. Gaming is no different. It is what it is. Let the people interested in the hobby play, and don't worry about whether they are women or men, or what colour their skin is.

These morons at WOTC are disgusting. Oh, and yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps, I had LOTS of gamers participate. Many were minorities, too. Black, Asian, Hispanic. Strange thing though--none of them ever said we need to have fewer white guys playing, and get more minority gamers! None of them EVER aid anything like that. They were all glad to have anyone join up and play D&D. Every Marine was welcoming to others wanting to play, regardless of their race.

I guess all of the different Marines I gamed with--from different races, all over the fucking country, from New York, Chicago, Miami, Texas, Colorado, to Alaska, Hawaii, and California, and everywhere in between, didn't get the same memo that thisclownat WOTC has gotten.

I also had some Marines from Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Philippines! Imagine that? They game too! They all liked D&D. And none of them, or any of the white Marine gamers, were racist against anyone. Fuck this clown at WOTC. This moron is so insulting. Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well put hermano but you forget one very important thing:

In the Marine corps there's no "White" or "Black" there is only two colors, light and dark green.

And regardless of which shade of green, they're all sea-going bellhops...  ;D

Now that *that's* out of the way...

I think that we're starting to see the tail end of the DEI nonsense in corporate settings because of the negative impact to the bottom line. It just happens to be that a consumer game company is the type of business that won't see the negative impact as quickly as, say, Disney or Netflix where you can see it in the form of cancelled subs and fewer amusement park visits.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 11:35:27 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 11:27:21 PM
Greetings!

The MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE WHITE MEN. If Brink doesn't like that fact, or anyone else, too bad. SUCK IT.

I'm so sick of these racist fuckers. Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.

Despite the large increase in popularity for attracting women and minority gamers--the majority are still WHITE MEN. At every game convention I have been to, and at my local game store, on the various game nights, the majority are still WHITE MEN.

GOOD! These game company executives need to be worried about creating good games, writing good books--and not worried about the sex or ethnicity of who gamers are. There are various games and interests that appeal to a majority of "X"--whether that is basketball, or quilting. Who cares? Noone cares that many such interests have few white men attending them or participating. Gaming is no different. It is what it is. Let the people interested in the hobby play, and don't worry about whether they are women or men, or what colour their skin is.

These morons at WOTC are disgusting. Oh, and yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps, I had LOTS of gamers participate. Many were minorities, too. Black, Asian, Hispanic. Strange thing though--none of them ever said we need to have fewer white guys playing, and get more minority gamers! None of them EVER aid anything like that. They were all glad to have anyone join up and play D&D. Every Marine was welcoming to others wanting to play, regardless of their race.

I guess all of the different Marines I gamed with--from different races, all over the fucking country, from New York, Chicago, Miami, Texas, Colorado, to Alaska, Hawaii, and California, and everywhere in between, didn't get the same memo that thisclownat WOTC has gotten.

I also had some Marines from Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Philippines! Imagine that? They game too! They all liked D&D. And none of them, or any of the white Marine gamers, were racist against anyone. Fuck this clown at WOTC. This moron is so insulting. Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well put hermano but you forget one very important thing:

In the Marine corps there's no "White" or "Black" there is only two colors, light and dark green.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Yes, Hermano! That's right! There is only Light Green and Dark Green!

We labeled everyone as that, too. You know, that reminds me of an episode. In my Infantry Company, our Company 1st Sergeant was a very tall, lanky Dark Green Marine. (Company 1st Sergeants are like, next to being *God*. They answer only to the Company Commander, and Battalion higher ups). Company 1st Sergeant called us out to a formation. He said he had gotten word that some in the company were starting to hang out in racial cliques. He yelled at us, "Bullshit!" All you motherfuckers in this goodamn infantry unit just better well be hanging out together. There are no Marines of different races. There is only ONE motherfucking colour--MARINE GREEN. Y'all are either Light Green, or Dark Green. Y'all need to always be hanging out together. Like ferocious goddamn wolfpacks. TOGETHER, GOT IT? Let me fucking hear about any racial cliques going on any further, and I don't give a fuck who you are, you will answer to ME. And gentlemen, I wear a mighty big boot, and I will personally put my boot so far up your ass you will be speakig Chinese. All y'all best put a stop to this kind of activity and attitude, RIGHT NOW. And make no mistake. I get around. I will be going through the barracks, the gym, the chow hall, every goddamn place, watching and listening. I will know everything about what the fuck is going on with my Marines. I damn well better see all my Marines hanging out together. I'll have none of that exclusionary bullshit. Do I make myself clear?

Yes First Sergeant!--we all replied, in unison. We knew he was pissed. He was dead fucking serious. At that time, he had been a veteran for like, 20 years I wanna say. Decorations like crazy. Yeah, we took whatever the fuck the 1st Sergeant said as important. Everybody paid attention to whatever his priorities were. Even the Platoon Commanders, and the Company Commander would often reference, "As when the 1st Sergeant told you "X"" and so on. Top Sergeant, the backbone of training, discipline, and fucking OOH RAH morale and motivaion. If you got on his bad side, you were fucked. But we all knew he went to bat for us in anything, like a stern and rightoeus father that would die to protect us, as well as beat our ass when we needed it. So, that certainly set the tone on Light Green and Dark Green Marines!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: 3catcircus on February 08, 2023, 12:46:41 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 11:35:27 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 11:27:21 PM
Greetings!

The MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE WHITE MEN. If Brink doesn't like that fact, or anyone else, too bad. SUCK IT.

I'm so sick of these racist fuckers. Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.

Despite the large increase in popularity for attracting women and minority gamers--the majority are still WHITE MEN. At every game convention I have been to, and at my local game store, on the various game nights, the majority are still WHITE MEN.

GOOD! These game company executives need to be worried about creating good games, writing good books--and not worried about the sex or ethnicity of who gamers are. There are various games and interests that appeal to a majority of "X"--whether that is basketball, or quilting. Who cares? Noone cares that many such interests have few white men attending them or participating. Gaming is no different. It is what it is. Let the people interested in the hobby play, and don't worry about whether they are women or men, or what colour their skin is.

These morons at WOTC are disgusting. Oh, and yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps, I had LOTS of gamers participate. Many were minorities, too. Black, Asian, Hispanic. Strange thing though--none of them ever said we need to have fewer white guys playing, and get more minority gamers! None of them EVER aid anything like that. They were all glad to have anyone join up and play D&D. Every Marine was welcoming to others wanting to play, regardless of their race.

I guess all of the different Marines I gamed with--from different races, all over the fucking country, from New York, Chicago, Miami, Texas, Colorado, to Alaska, Hawaii, and California, and everywhere in between, didn't get the same memo that thisclownat WOTC has gotten.

I also had some Marines from Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Philippines! Imagine that? They game too! They all liked D&D. And none of them, or any of the white Marine gamers, were racist against anyone. Fuck this clown at WOTC. This moron is so insulting. Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well put hermano but you forget one very important thing:

In the Marine corps there's no "White" or "Black" there is only two colors, light and dark green.

And regardless of which shade of green, they're all sea-going bellhops...  ;D

Now that *that's* out of the way...

I think that we're starting to see the tail end of the DEI nonsense in corporate settings because of the negative impact to the bottom line. It just happens to be that a consumer game company is the type of business that won't see the negative impact as quickly as, say, Disney or Netflix where you can see it in the form of cancelled subs and fewer amusement park visits.

Greetings!

Hey 3catcircus! *Laughing* Yeah, yeah. Sea going Bellhops! We look so stylish in our pretty uniforms!

As for WOTC, they just keep stepping in shit, don't they? It is so much now, so mind-numbingly offensive, that it is laughable now. Way to torpedo the fucking brand that just six months ago was at the absolute peak of success and popularity. Mind numbingly pathetic and disgusting, too though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Everyone is able to play the game.  The only gatekeeping, is caused by the execs at WOTC; who keep opening their mouths, and spewing out anti-white racist stupidity.  What a dumpster fire, 2023 is turning out to be for WOTC!!!

I'm not upset.  This is glorious stupidity, by a company trying to offend their customers and self destruct.  You couldn't make this stuff up, if you tried.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 07:20:30 PM
You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.

Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.

For example, men way overrepresented in tech? Well men and women are interchangeable, so men must be keeping women out! All the money and effort you threw at getting women in to tech, and it's barely moved the needle?  Let's start artificially blocking men and only accepting women, even if the men have better scores or skills. For the sacred tenet of equity must be honored!

Eh, no, in the 21st century we still had, for example, senior professors of computer science who would tell young female students that *because they were women* they weren't well suited for a career in tech.

That's 15-20 years, not 50, and I have little reason to believe it's reversed since I left academia.

It's a tangent to this thread, but there's pretty good data showing that young 20-year-old guys can *completely unintentionally* drive young 20-year-old women out of the career, and that changing how we teach introductory computer science and even doing some sex-segregated classes can radically improve the young womens' success & mastery.

... I wouldn't be surprised if the same sort of thing happens at our RPG tables: the dumb extremes of "male culture" can be pretty obnoxious. I believe I've lost players of colour over cultural issues; it's been years since I lost any female players, and not clear what drove them off then.

Senior professors in tech and science always said all sorts of off the wall shit to people.  Every one I had possessed the personality of a brick and about the same level of social skills.  So coming across one or two that said something like that about women (who we know for fact MUCH prefer jobs and careers where they interact with people and not things) out loud is not a surprise at all.   Saying Academia discourages women to do anything when colleges are bursting at the seams with women though just sounds like bullshit to me. 

    I wish all cis-gendered hetero normative white men would immediately leave any WOTC product.    Not complain, not raise hell, just leave and never buy another thing.  Then mr "fellow white guy" would get the lesson he needs.

  I also agree men acting like meatheads or being oafs and carrying out "extremes" of male culture can be pretty annoying to lots of people.  Pushing to feminize more men and tone down those annoying things is going to have some pretty serious repercussions down the road though.   But males as children need a bit of a firm hand to be gentlemen capable of controlled violence rather than crybabies or rampaging oafs as they grow into adults.  We have lost a firm hand and openly celebrate having just one parent raise boys/men and always want to feminize them.  That is going to be a whole lot worse down the road than dudes acting like "bros".   

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 08, 2023, 03:42:37 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 07:20:30 PM
You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.

Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.

For example, men way overrepresented in tech? Well men and women are interchangeable, so men must be keeping women out! All the money and effort you threw at getting women in to tech, and it's barely moved the needle?  Let's start artificially blocking men and only accepting women, even if the men have better scores or skills. For the sacred tenet of equity must be honored!

Eh, no, in the 21st century we still had, for example, senior professors of computer science who would tell young female students that *because they were women* they weren't well suited for a career in tech.

That's 15-20 years, not 50, and I have little reason to believe it's reversed since I left academia.

It's a tangent to this thread, but there's pretty good data showing that young 20-year-old guys can *completely unintentionally* drive young 20-year-old women out of the career, and that changing how we teach introductory computer science and even doing some sex-segregated classes can radically improve the young womens' success & mastery.

... I wouldn't be surprised if the same sort of thing happens at our RPG tables: the dumb extremes of "male culture" can be pretty obnoxious. I believe I've lost players of colour over cultural issues; it's been years since I lost any female players, and not clear what drove them off then.

Maybe the obnoxious 'men of color' drive off the women? I'm not sure if we're allowed to ask that question, though.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 11:38:14 AM
As I see it, there is a division with 100% white male bosses -- then one of the bosses does an interview, and because of his phrasing in a two second bit, others conclude that white males are an oppressed class within the division.

I'd at least consider the possibility that Kyle is not telling the truth. That he is fine with his boss position and power, and he is going overboard in saying what he thinks the interviewer wants to hear. I don't know Kyle as a person, but I have very low trust in Hasbro/WotC in general.

I would consider that no only possible, but absolutely certain. The proof is that he hasn't resigned yet.

Pundits previous video was about WotC maybe going less woke, then this. Imagine if both are right and Kyle would rather blow things up than work for a company that was non-woke.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 10:08:50 PM
When it's discriminatory is if they're willing to make a cake for non-gay customers, but won't make the exact same cake design for gay customers.

Okay but why should this be illegal? No one has ever given me a good reason that it should be illegal to act like a dick. The GOVERNMENT isn't allowed to discriminate, but why can't individuals? There is no valid reason.

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 08, 2023, 03:42:37 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 07:20:30 PM
You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.

Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.

For example, men way overrepresented in tech? Well men and women are interchangeable, so men must be keeping women out! All the money and effort you threw at getting women in to tech, and it's barely moved the needle?  Let's start artificially blocking men and only accepting women, even if the men have better scores or skills. For the sacred tenet of equity must be honored!

Eh, no, in the 21st century we still had, for example, senior professors of computer science who would tell young female students that *because they were women* they weren't well suited for a career in tech.

That's 15-20 years, not 50, and I have little reason to believe it's reversed since I left academia.

It's a tangent to this thread, but there's pretty good data showing that young 20-year-old guys can *completely unintentionally* drive young 20-year-old women out of the career, and that changing how we teach introductory computer science and even doing some sex-segregated classes can radically improve the young womens' success & mastery.

... I wouldn't be surprised if the same sort of thing happens at our RPG tables: the dumb extremes of "male culture" can be pretty obnoxious. I believe I've lost players of colour over cultural issues; it's been years since I lost any female players, and not clear what drove them off then.

Women are subject oriented and Men are object oriented.  You can't force women to code when the majority of them would rather interact directly with human beings than a computer terminal all day.  Go to the Nordics where they have the highest level of freedom and people who think like you who push women to go into coding - guess what women choose the medical and legal professions over programming because they like working with human beings and men choose engineering because they like working with objects.  You can't change someones genetic predilection for what they find enjoyable.  Its why you are seeing a massive increase in the US in medical schools where women outnumber men.  Women in the past chose computer science because it was a new field and they were able to make inroads because the field wasn't blocked to them like many jobs were in the 1940's especially during war time when they could not be blocked for the war effort.  Today you see a low number of women in computer science related fields because to most women, but not all, its not an enjoyable field.  Interacting with a human being to most women is significantly more enjoyable.

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 08, 2023, 03:42:37 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 07:20:30 PM
You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.

Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.

For example, men way overrepresented in tech? Well men and women are interchangeable, so men must be keeping women out! All the money and effort you threw at getting women in to tech, and it's barely moved the needle?  Let's start artificially blocking men and only accepting women, even if the men have better scores or skills. For the sacred tenet of equity must be honored!

Eh, no, in the 21st century we still had, for example, senior professors of computer science who would tell young female students that *because they were women* they weren't well suited for a career in tech.

That's 15-20 years, not 50, and I have little reason to believe it's reversed since I left academia.

It's a tangent to this thread, but there's pretty good data showing that young 20-year-old guys can *completely unintentionally* drive young 20-year-old women out of the career, and that changing how we teach introductory computer science and even doing some sex-segregated classes can radically improve the young womens' success & mastery.

... I wouldn't be surprised if the same sort of thing happens at our RPG tables: the dumb extremes of "male culture" can be pretty obnoxious. I believe I've lost players of colour over cultural issues; it's been years since I lost any female players, and not clear what drove them off then.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence or, to put it another way, that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence too, or in old timey internet slang: Pics or it didn't happen.

Loser Mindset: "Someone somewhere made a comment that expressed general truths and it made me feel uncomfortable. That's why I never pursued and achieved my goal."

Winner Mindset: "Fuck you Kyle Brink. I don't care if you or any of the other corporate CEOs at billion dollar corps hate White Men and want to see us ground into dust. I'm going to do my thing and kick your ass."

All the griping about systemic this and privilege that is just desperate cope of losers who never seriously tried to do what they claim their goal was.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 08, 2023, 10:14:14 AM

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 08, 2023, 03:42:37 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 07:20:30 PM
You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.

Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.

For example, men way overrepresented in tech? Well men and women are interchangeable, so men must be keeping women out! All the money and effort you threw at getting women in to tech, and it's barely moved the needle?  Let's start artificially blocking men and only accepting women, even if the men have better scores or skills. For the sacred tenet of equity must be honored!

Eh, no, in the 21st century we still had, for example, senior professors of computer science who would tell young female students that *because they were women* they weren't well suited for a career in tech.

That's 15-20 years, not 50, and I have little reason to believe it's reversed since I left academia.

It's a tangent to this thread, but there's pretty good data showing that young 20-year-old guys can *completely unintentionally* drive young 20-year-old women out of the career, and that changing how we teach introductory computer science and even doing some sex-segregated classes can radically improve the young womens' success & mastery.

... I wouldn't be surprised if the same sort of thing happens at our RPG tables: the dumb extremes of "male culture" can be pretty obnoxious. I believe I've lost players of colour over cultural issues; it's been years since I lost any female players, and not clear what drove them off then.

Women are subject oriented and Men are object oriented.  You can't force women to code when the majority of them would rather interact directly with human beings than a computer terminal all day.  Go to the Nordics where they have the highest level of freedom and people who think like you who push women to go into coding - guess what women choose the medical and legal professions over programming because they like working with human beings and men choose engineering because they like working with objects.  You can't change someones genetic predilection for what they find enjoyable.  Its why you are seeing a massive increase in the US in medical schools where women outnumber men.  Women in the past chose computer science because it was a new field and they were able to make inroads because the field wasn't blocked to them like many jobs were in the 1940's especially during war time when they could not be blocked for the war effort.  Today you see a low number of women in computer science related fields because to most women, but not all, its not an enjoyable field.  Interacting with a human being to most women is significantly more enjoyable.

My wife is the exception to the rule then. She's been a computer programmer for more than 30 years....and she can't stand most people. She doesn't female friends, because she can't stand their bullshit. The only real female friend is my best friend's wife, and she's basically a carbon copy of my wife, personality speaking.

Quote from: Brad on February 08, 2023, 09:49:48 AM
Okay but why should this be illegal? No one has ever given me a good reason that it should be illegal to act like a dick. The GOVERNMENT isn't allowed to discriminate, but why can't individuals? There is no valid reason.

Under Federal law, unless you served food for consumption on the premises, you could tell anyone you didn't care to serve to piss off for any reason at all.
If you served food on the premises, you could still refuse to serve dirty hippies and queers, but not colored people or other ethnic people.
However many States came up with their own nutty laws that infringed on the rights of shopkeepers to discriminate.

Quote from: blackstone on February 08, 2023, 01:47:33 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 08, 2023, 10:14:14 AM

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 08, 2023, 03:42:37 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 07:20:30 PM
You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.

Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.

For example, men way overrepresented in tech? Well men and women are interchangeable, so men must be keeping women out! All the money and effort you threw at getting women in to tech, and it's barely moved the needle?  Let's start artificially blocking men and only accepting women, even if the men have better scores or skills. For the sacred tenet of equity must be honored!

Eh, no, in the 21st century we still had, for example, senior professors of computer science who would tell young female students that *because they were women* they weren't well suited for a career in tech.

That's 15-20 years, not 50, and I have little reason to believe it's reversed since I left academia.

It's a tangent to this thread, but there's pretty good data showing that young 20-year-old guys can *completely unintentionally* drive young 20-year-old women out of the career, and that changing how we teach introductory computer science and even doing some sex-segregated classes can radically improve the young womens' success & mastery.

... I wouldn't be surprised if the same sort of thing happens at our RPG tables: the dumb extremes of "male culture" can be pretty obnoxious. I believe I've lost players of colour over cultural issues; it's been years since I lost any female players, and not clear what drove them off then.

Women are subject oriented and Men are object oriented.  You can't force women to code when the majority of them would rather interact directly with human beings than a computer terminal all day.  Go to the Nordics where they have the highest level of freedom and people who think like you who push women to go into coding - guess what women choose the medical and legal professions over programming because they like working with human beings and men choose engineering because they like working with objects.  You can't change someones genetic predilection for what they find enjoyable.  Its why you are seeing a massive increase in the US in medical schools where women outnumber men.  Women in the past chose computer science because it was a new field and they were able to make inroads because the field wasn't blocked to them like many jobs were in the 1940's especially during war time when they could not be blocked for the war effort.  Today you see a low number of women in computer science related fields because to most women, but not all, its not an enjoyable field.  Interacting with a human being to most women is significantly more enjoyable.

My wife is the exception to the rule then. She's been a computer programmer for more than 30 years....and she can't stand most people. She doesn't female friends, because she can't stand their bullshit. The only real female friend is my best friend's wife, and she's basically a carbon copy of my wife, personality speaking.

Outlier
noun
-One that lives or is located outside or at the edge of a given area.
-One that exists outside or at an extreme of a category, pattern, or expectation; an extreme case or exception.
-A value far from most others in a set of data.

If only we knew which demographic actually bought their products and services .... oh wait, it's the very people they don't want around anymore.

Virtue signaling can only last until board members' pockets start hurting. D&D is getting close to a full shake up.  People typically virtue signal with other people's money.  I predict that the board will start demanding real business types at WotC's highest levels, not guys like in this video. The business types will then gut D&D and spread it thin for full profit.

Between this and the Bank of America report on Hasbro stumbling, I suspect the course correction is coming sooner rather than later.

This is potentially getting far off from RPGs, which Pundit has said is a no-no for this forum. Keeping this on Wizards of the Coast, the relevance is about how apparently the D&D upper management is 100% white men.

It seems weird to me that Brinks has somehow spun there being 100% white male D&D management into posters suggesting that WotC is representative of the height of wokeness, and that what he says demonstrates what progressives are like.

I'd want to make clear that as a non-white person and as a progressive, I don't for a second think that WotC is on my side.  Just a few weeks ago, it seemed like there was unity that WotC is a soulless corporation - and everyone, woke and non-woke alike, rejected their OGL license nonsense. And now WotC is deliberately trying to drive a wedge into that.

-----

EDITED TO ADD: Cross-posted with Pen and Ghostmaker's comments. The stuff off-topic from RPGs was about women coding, discrimination lawsuits, and similar.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 08, 2023, 02:54:35 PM
Between this and the Bank of America report on Hasbro stumbling, I suspect the course correction is coming sooner rather than later.

Wouldn't a course correction right now be intrinsically associated with the OGL fiasco and the D&D beyond loss of subscribers? They might do it before the q1 2023 report, but I don't think it will be that fast.

Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 03:16:41 PM
This is potentially getting far off from RPGs, which Pundit has said is a no-no for this forum. Keeping this on Wizards of the Coast, the relevance is about how apparently the D&D upper management is 100% white men.

It seems weird to me that Brinks has somehow spun there being 100% white male D&D management into posters suggesting that WotC is representative of the height of wokeness, and that what he says demonstrates what progressives are like.

I'd want to make clear that as a non-white person and as a progressive, I don't for a second think that WotC is on my side.  Just a few weeks ago, it seemed like there was unity that WotC is a soulless corporation - and everyone, woke and non-woke alike, rejected their OGL license nonsense. And now WotC is deliberately trying to drive a wedge into that.

-----

EDITED TO ADD: Cross-posted with Pen and Ghostmaker's comments. The stuff off-topic from RPGs was about women coding, discrimination lawsuits, and similar.

Would it surprize you that some progressives on the twatters ARE throwing themselves in front of the train to protect Wotzi?

Going as far as to call me racist for saying (and I quote): "Exactly, just like I wouldn't buy from a white supremacists I will also not buy from any other type of racist".

Now, if that makes me a racist then I'll wear the badge with pride.

What did you think the morality clause was all about? To point to ALL that opposed Wotzi and call them istophobes and enlist the woke as their shield and cudgel.

Yes, Kyle Brink is a complete sociopath....but he's only saying what his bosses have told him to say. That worm is just following orders. He was GIVEN ORDERS to openly engage in blatant anti-white demoralization tactics. He was ordered to engage in psychological warfare against Hasbro's white male customers for D&D. This only seems insane if you don't understand why they're doing it. Most of Hasbro's shares are held by large financial institutions like Blackrock and Vanguard. I guarantee you that the owners of the giant asset management firms are giving orders to the corporate worms at Hasbro to push anti-white/CRT/DEI initiatives. This is not something new; it's happening at all billion dollar western corporations.

Hasbro is NOT controlled by gaming nerds. ::)

A black employee at Hasbro was already punished for revealing that Hasbro is deliberately targeting children with weaponized CRT propaganda. The men who control the giant asset management firms do not care about making money. Why would they? After all, the giant asset management firms are controlled by the same people who print the money for our corrupt western system of fiat currency. In other words, they care about something else....and that's power.

What's happening here should not surprise anyone. ::)

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 08, 2023, 03:29:27 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 03:16:41 PM
I'd want to make clear that as a non-white person and as a progressive, I don't for a second think that WotC is on my side.  Just a few weeks ago, it seemed like there was unity that WotC is a soulless corporation - and everyone, woke and non-woke alike, rejected their OGL license nonsense. And now WotC is deliberately trying to drive a wedge into that.

Would it surprize you that some progressives on the twatters ARE throwing themselves in front of the train to protect Wotzi?

Going as far as to call me racist for saying (and I quote): "Exactly, just like I wouldn't buy from a white supremacists I will also not buy from any other type of racist".

Now, if that makes me a racist then I'll wear the badge with pride.

What did you think the morality clause was all about? To point to ALL that opposed Wotzi and call them istophobes and enlist the woke as their shield and cudgel.

I agree that WotC were using the morality clause to try to enlist progressives to their OGL v1.2. I also note that it failed miserably. Woke creators all immediately abandoned WotC - including all the red list companies. And woke gamers were completely against it as well - dropping their D&DBeyond subscriptions in droves.

Here they're trying again, and I'm not surprised that some people fell for it. It's trivially easy to get people to fight left/right partisanship.

Quote from: DocJones on February 07, 2023, 10:25:29 AM
I take it Kyle Brink has never been to a TTRPG convention.

Now, if we were talking about CCGs, then at least in gender terms his perception of the game's audience would be correct. I went to check out a place the other day where I could revive my old open game tables, it was a decent space, the owners friendly - they had a CCG tournament on, and it was a total sausage-fest. At least 60 people there, all male.

But the males included a variety of ethnic groups. I didn't enquire about their sexualities, there are things man was not meant to know.

Perhaps that's where his perception comes from, the CCG half. Of course, this is what a good marketing department is supposed to do, give you a good idea of your current customer demographic. Evidently their marketing department is failing in this.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on February 08, 2023, 05:13:59 PM\Evidently their marketing department is failing in this.

He IS doing the marketing. "Our geeky looser product is diverse and hip and for all of those up-and-coming girl bosses!".

Quote from: DocJones on February 07, 2023, 10:25:29 AM
I take it Kyle Brink has never been to a TTRPG convention.

Now, if we were talking about CCGs, then at least in gender terms his perception of the game's audience would be correct. I went to check out a place the other day where I could revive my old open game tables, it was a decent space, the owners friendly - they had a CCG tournament on, and it was a total sausage-fest. At least 60 people there, all male.

But the males included a variety of ethnic groups. I didn't enquire about their sexualities, there are things man was not meant to know.

Perhaps that's where his perception comes from, the CCG half. Of course, this is what a good marketing department is supposed to do, give you a good idea of your current customer demographic. Evidently their marketing department is failing in this.

Quote from: NaisomethingIt's a tangent to this thread, but there's pretty good data showing that young 20-year-old guys can *completely unintentionally* drive young 20-year-old women out of the career, and that changing how we teach introductory computer science and even doing some sex-segregated classes can radically improve the young womens' success & mastery.

I can see that. What I will say is that previously in game clubs what I saw was that the demographics of the game table simply reflected the demographics of the local universities, more or less. The friendly welcoming game table with the individual gamers reaching out to people to bring them in is how a lot of us got introduced to the hobby, generally some time between the middle of high school and the start of university, if we did uni.

My own game table slanted older and male, but that was because of the focus we had on older game systems, and because in the 30+ age group people have work and families, and the systemic sexism of our society means that it's more likely men will take an evening out away from the kids to game (or play tennis, or whatever) than it is that women will. However, we had all ethnicities, sexualities etc.

Bear in mind that most entertainers and entertainment companies are far more accustomed to the far left Twitterati causing corporations grief than the actual clientele. I'm not actually surprised by what Brink said because I am well aware that pandering left is a well tuned reflex. We all know he didn't actually believe what he said. He just has absolutely no idea what else to say. That said, a lie everyone can see through is still a lie.

It just goes to show that no one should associate with WotC anymore.

It is impressive of them to refocus the debate and shift the battleground. Presto, the conversation is no longer about WotC trying to demolish the market and strongarm competitors and fans alike into a way more precarious position just a few weeks ago, which united fans, industry players, and the wider media against them in an unprecedented way. It is now a battle on a much more favourable ground where they hold strategic advantage, and the enemy will be divided and fighting among itself. This is how the fate of great battles that seem already won is turned.

If it was intentional, I must congratulate Kyle Brink, who has steered the conversation in an expert way with a few off-hand remarks. That's a textbook example of how you wedge a coalition aligned against you. If it was just a gaffe, it could not have happened at a better moment. Either way, he has earned his keep from his paymasters. In their place, I would give this man a hefty bonus.

   Against WOTC, I do not care if a progressive feels they are also against them since the progressives have long since stated they are 100 percent on board with the less white men ideology.  I do not pick a side when 2 enemies fight, I just let them fight and hope they both expire. 

   WOTC has made it clear where they stood for a long time, I find it refreshing they have decided to just play the game with the mask off.  I said it earlier and it bears repeating, once someone has been thoughtful (or maybe thoughtless) enough to openly state I am their enemy I am clear to respond in kind.  No more looking for common ground or stupidity around "we mostly want the same things".   WOTC is run by people who want men in women's bathrooms and to see zero white people working in RPGs.  No need for anyone to be mad.  Just leave them. Forever.  Done.

Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 03:16:41 PM
I'd want to make clear that as a non-white person and as a progressive, I don't for a second think that WotC is on my side.  Just a few weeks ago, it seemed like there was unity that WotC is a soulless corporation - and everyone, woke and non-woke alike, rejected their OGL license nonsense. And now WotC is deliberately trying to drive a wedge into that.

I'm genuinely curious when you came to that realization? We've only been saying it for years here. But I can't remember when you've ever uttered those words before. So what was it that brought you to this conclusion?

Their games are representative of the corporations agenda, and the people they've hired to be the games custodians. It's *been* this way for a long time. I used to be "Ride or Die" for D&D... but after freelancing with them, it was glaringly apparent what they were about. I was skeptical when Pundit and Zak was brought on as consultants for 5e, not because I thought they didn't have good things to contribute, but because I never believed Mearls had the clout with the higher-ups to take anything useful from them to make 5e what it could have been in the long-run, and the progressive pogrom would ruin anything good that could have come of it.

And you, in particular, have been pretty vocal in your rationalization for their behavior. What changed?

Quote from: Fheredin on February 08, 2023, 05:58:00 PM
Bear in mind that most entertainers and entertainment companies are far more accustomed to the far left Twitterati causing corporations grief than the actual clientele. I'm not actually surprised by what Brink said because I am well aware that pandering left is a well tuned reflex. We all know he didn't actually believe what he said. He just has absolutely no idea what else to say. That said, a lie everyone can see through is still a lie.

It just goes to show that no one should associate with WotC anymore.

The thing is, are we the current WoTC clientele? At my LGS I only see people with pink or blue hair wearing D&D merch, running a table or buying books. I think that the majority of "the old guard" spends a lot less than the "twitterati" on new products, since most of us are mature enough to avoid the hype of a new book, or as we see more and more the anti-consumer practices of WoTc, we don't buy their product's at all. I'd say people that have been playing RPGs for a long time are malso ore likely to try new stuff and stick with it (or never let go of older stuff, like me and 3.5).


WoTC for sure has insight on their consumer demographics, and as they see older people not buying, they gonna go all out on the new consumers. Publicly saying that white people are unwanted is just the next step on what I believe is WotC main marketing strategy.

Quote from: ZeroZero on February 09, 2023, 12:11:46 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on February 08, 2023, 05:58:00 PM
Bear in mind that most entertainers and entertainment companies are far more accustomed to the far left Twitterati causing corporations grief than the actual clientele. I'm not actually surprised by what Brink said because I am well aware that pandering left is a well tuned reflex. We all know he didn't actually believe what he said. He just has absolutely no idea what else to say. That said, a lie everyone can see through is still a lie.

It just goes to show that no one should associate with WotC anymore.

The thing is, are we the current WoTC clientele? At my LGS I only see people with pink or blue hair wearing D&D merch, running a table or buying books. I think that the majority of "the old guard" spend a lot less than the "twitterati" on new products, since most of us are mature enough to avoid the hype of a new book, or as we see more and more the anti-consumer practices of WoTc, we don't buy their product's at all. I'd say people that have been playing RPGs for a long time are malso ore likely to try new stuff and stick with it (or never let go of older stuff, like me and 3.5).


WoTC for sure has insight on their consumer demographics, and as they see older people not buying, they gonna go all out on the new consumers. Publicly saying that white people are unwanted is just the next step on what I believe is WotC main marketing strategy.

Much like with twitter, this is an iceberg situation.

Any space where danger-hairs infest, they drive out anyone that isn't a danger-hair, either through coercion, or merely being there. The people who used to be on Twitter, and go to the game store, didn't cease to exist, they simply went elsewhere.

Old white guys don't game at stores anymore, because they're as welcome there as Jesse Jackson at a Klan BBQ. They play at home, or find a group online that aren't lunatics.

Old white guys are the RPG iceberg, with a tip of clowns showing above the water.

Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 03:16:41 PM
This is potentially getting far off from RPGs, which Pundit has said is a no-no for this forum. Keeping this on Wizards of the Coast, the relevance is about how apparently the D&D upper management is 100% white men.

It seems weird to me that Brinks has somehow spun there being 100% white male D&D management into posters suggesting that WotC is representative of the height of wokeness, and that what he says demonstrates what progressives are like.

I'd want to make clear that as a non-white person and as a progressive, I don't for a second think that WotC is on my side.  Just a few weeks ago, it seemed like there was unity that WotC is a soulless corporation - and everyone, woke and non-woke alike, rejected their OGL license nonsense. And now WotC is deliberately trying to drive a wedge into that.

Funny how being the height of wokeness involves 'cis' white guys saying
"I can't wait until all the people like me have left!" *stays put*
;D
I think WoTC can definitely be both 'the height of wokeness' and a bunch of exploitative scumbags. I noticed Brink was trying to spin diversity hire *writers* - who are paid peanuts - as somehow indicative that WoTC was just about to replace all the cisgender straight white men like him in well paid senior positions with Diversity. Yeah right.
BTW John, Diversity does not mean you. A half Chinese female writer friend of mine sometimes gets a bit peeved that she and people like her do all the actual writing work while 'properly Diverse' POCs are put front & centre and given all the credit. Not that the Properly Diverse get actual power or (much) money, they are there to POC-wash the Corporate image.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PMBTW John, Diversity does not mean you. A half Chinese female writer friend of mine sometimes gets a bit peeved that she and people like her do all the actual writing work while 'properly Diverse' POCs are put front & centre and given all the credit. Not that the Properly Diverse get actual power or (much) money, they are there to POC-wash the Corporate image.

Is she not fully woke? In which case she's only half-White.

If she were woke, she'd be half-Chinese.

In a world where white guys can call black guys White Supremacists, this all makes sense.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 02:16:05 PM
Is she not fully woke? In which case she's only half-White.

If she were woke, she'd be half-Chinese.

She gets along with everyone, she's very zen, but is definitely on the left-liberal side in her own views.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 02:37:20 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 02:16:05 PM
Is she not fully woke? In which case she's only half-White.

If she were woke, she'd be half-Chinese.

She gets along with everyone, she's very zen, but is definitely on the left-liberal side in her own views.

"So she's a Nazi." - A Wokist.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PM
...
BTW John, Diversity does not mean you. A half Chinese female writer friend of mine sometimes gets a bit peeved that she and people like her do all the actual writing work while 'properly Diverse' POCs are put front & centre and given all the credit. Not that the Properly Diverse get actual power or (much) money, they are there to POC-wash the Corporate image.

^This^

As far as the Properly Diverse are concerned, they are just putting the 'asian' in caucasian.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PM
I think WoTC can definitely be both 'the height of wokeness', and a bunch of exploitative scumbags.

It's funny how often these two things go hand in hand.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PM
I noticed Brink was trying to spin diversity hire *writers* - who are paid peanuts - as somehow indicative that WoTC was just about to replace all the cisgender straight white men like him in well paid senior positions with Diversity. Yeah right.

Wotzi should pay so that they actually attract the creatives that would otherwise go into the videogame industry.

They can afford to pay very well, but choose not to. They pay contractors no better than Baizuo.

All they have going for them now is the D&D brand name, and that is slowly being tarnished now...

Nah, saying they don't want white people is going to fix everything. All the people who went to try out Pathfinder are going to come roaring back.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 08:28:55 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 07, 2023, 08:22:31 PM
:'( But I already flipped my table and declared WotC dead to me Jan 2023... I can't keep flipping my table and declare WotC dead to me every single month of 2023!  ??? It's redundant and exhausting.  ;) Huh, just like WotC... touché WotC, touché.

Flip it back up. You get to express your rage while tidying up from the last rage.

I just don't have the energy of Sisyphus. ;) It's redundant and exhausting to flip that table back up just to flip it back down again in rage.

:o Ooh, I know! Why don't I conserve energy and just flip my pupils whenever I hear about Hasbro/WotC doing another stupid thing?  ::) That way I can bring my eyes back to rest easily when I need to do it all over again. So instead of rolling a table, I will be rolling my eyes. Yes, I will call it 'rolling my eyes' at WotC.  ::) 8) Ingenious. Much energy conservation. I am doing my part for climate change.

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 09, 2023, 03:10:05 PMI just don't have the energy of Sisyphus. ;) It's redundant and exhausting to flip that table back up just to flip it back down again in rage.

What you need is a domineering Greek with a whip to motivate you.

Let me check my contacts.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 09, 2023, 02:55:08 PM
Wotzi should pay so that they actually attract the creatives that would otherwise go into the videogame industry.

They can afford to pay very well, but choose not to. They pay contractors no better than Baizuo.

All they have going for them now is the D&D brand name, and that is slowly being tarnished now...

A recent video I watched talked about all the reasons the OneD&D tabletop was going to fail and one of the main reasons given was the observation "WotC is a bunch of cheapskates."

His specific observation was to note that third parties with less economy of scale were delivering stitched bound hardcovers at the same price as WotC delivers glue bound ones with the same page count.

They have economy of scale advantages so could easily deliver the same higher quality product, but they don't. They'd rather skimp on product quality to maximize profits. And if they'll do it with book binding, they'll cut corners EVERYWHERE (including developing their VTT).

So, yeah, they deliver crap writing because they won't actually pay for anything better than schlock quality and bind it in the cheapest way that will look attractive on a shelf (who cares how well it holds up, they want to resell you everything in five years anyway).

It has crap management too because it's a cheapskate and won't actually pay for better talent in leadership. They aren't looking for the best... they're looking for the cheapest that can meet minimum capability.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2023, 03:49:25 PM

A recent video I watched talked about all the reasons the OneD&D tabletop was going to fail and one of the main reasons given was the observation "WotC is a bunch of cheapskates."

His specific observation was to note that third parties with less economy of scale were delivering stitched bound hardcovers at the same price as WotC delivers glue bound ones with the same page count.

They have economy of scale advantages so could easily deliver the same higher quality product, but they don't. They'd rather skimp on product quality to maximize profits. And if they'll do it with book binding, they'll cut corners EVERYWHERE (including developing their VTT).

So, yeah, they deliver crap writing because they won't actually pay for anything better than schlock quality and bind it in the cheapest way that will look attractive on a shelf (who cares how well it holds up, they want to resell you everything in five years anyway).

It has crap management too because it's a cheapskate and won't actually pay for better talent in leadership. They aren't looking for the best... they're looking for the cheapest that can meet minimum capability.

The video was by Dave Thaumavore? If it its, I found the reasons he gave for a possible fail pretty on point, which is kinda unusual...

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2023, 03:49:25 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on February 09, 2023, 02:55:08 PM
Wotzi should pay so that they actually attract the creatives that would otherwise go into the videogame industry.

They can afford to pay very well, but choose not to. They pay contractors no better than Baizuo.

All they have going for them now is the D&D brand name, and that is slowly being tarnished now...

A recent video I watched talked about all the reasons the OneD&D tabletop was going to fail and one of the main reasons given was the observation "WotC is a bunch of cheapskates."

His specific observation was to note that third parties with less economy of scale were delivering stitched bound hardcovers at the same price as WotC delivers glue bound ones with the same page count.

They have economy of scale advantages so could easily deliver the same higher quality product, but they don't. They'd rather skimp on product quality to maximize profits. And if they'll do it with book binding, they'll cut corners EVERYWHERE (including developing their VTT).

So, yeah, they deliver crap writing because they won't actually pay for anything better than schlock quality and bind it in the cheapest way that will look attractive on a shelf (who cares how well it holds up, they want to resell you everything in five years anyway).

It has crap management too because it's a cheapskate and won't actually pay for better talent in leadership. They aren't looking for the best... they're looking for the cheapest that can meet minimum capability.

I remember that video in my feed. It made a lot of good points about their dysfunctional corporate culture, and why smaller competitors can produce better product at lower prices. Although AIR he didn't mention Kickstarter, which I think has hugely boosted the quality of what small companies can put out.

Quote from: tenbones on February 09, 2023, 10:28:57 AM
I'm genuinely curious when you came to that realization? We've only been saying it for years here. But I can't remember when you've ever uttered those words before. So what was it that brought you to this conclusion?

Their games are representative of the corporations agenda, and the people they've hired to be the games custodians. It's *been* this way for a long time. I used to be "Ride or Die" for D&D... but after freelancing with them, it was glaringly apparent what they were about. I was skeptical when Pundit and Zak was brought on as consultants for 5e, not because I thought they didn't have good things to contribute, but because I never believed Mearls had the clout with the higher-ups to take anything useful from them to make 5e what it could have been in the long-run, and the progressive pogrom would ruin anything good that could have come of it.

And you, in particular, have been pretty vocal in your rationalization for their behavior. What changed?

Thanks for the genuine question, tenbones!

First as a caveat, in general, I see soulless corporations as a sometimes necessary evil. Lots of my purchases come from soulless corporations (food, appliances, etc.), because life is just too expensive otherwise.  Minimizing costs and maximizing profit has some benefits for society.

Also, I've never been "Ride or Die" for D&D. I've mostly played other RPGs since I was a teenager. I've always hated alignment and the homeless tomb robber premise, and have been ambivalent about classes and Vancian magic.

---

I'd given 5E a try and found it my favorite of D&D editions, though that didn't make it one of my favorite games. I didn't pay much attention to WotC as an RPG company.

I started looking closer at WotC about 3 years ago, after Pundit said that Candlekeep Mysteries had the combat wheelchair rules in it and that every dungeon since has been wheelchair accessible. I was so incredulous that I bought a copy of Candlekeep Mysteries, and found that there were no wheelchairs in any illustrations or text - and none of the dungeons were accessible (though one had an Egyptian style tomb that had ramps like Egyptian tombs often did).

That put me into defending WotC, simply because the claim against them was so ridiculous. I wasn't a WotC fan, but I thought Candlekeep was decent. The adventures were of mixed quality, but I liked the anthology approach much better than the early 5E modules I had tried, which were terrible quality adventure paths (IMO).

I ended up buying three more WotC books since then, with similar results. The claims against them here mostly didn't match up with what I read. They're not among my favorite RPG products, but they're at least middle of the road -- and the claims against them were completely over-the-top.

Still, I could clearly see a pattern that WotC advertised to liberal gamers with press releases or social media to play up a handful of liberal touches in the books. Those made little difference to the gameplay, but they enraged some posters here, and presumably won a few purchases from liberal gamers. It's similar to how Disney will play up its "we included a gay background character for 3 seconds in one of our movies". Token advertising like that definitely annoyed me, but I have a low opinion of most advertising in general.

-----

The biggest shift was of course the OGL fiasco, which pushed all my buttons. I'd already been vocal about how current IP restrictions are ridiculous -- and unethically pushing them even harder was a huge issue for me.

Now they're trying similar insincere advertising to try to make up for their OGL fiasco, and I'm finding it even less palatable now. It's still a problem that I can feel defensive when posters point to the Brink interview and say "see, this is what liberals think". But I'm trying to push past that.

(mistaken post)

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2023, 07:45:33 PM
It's still a problem that I can feel defensive when posters point to the Brink interview and say "see, this is what liberals think". But I'm trying to push past that.

WoTC do still seem to be trying very hard to win back left wing players with their "How do you do, fellow radicals?" thing. They clearly expected a chunk of the community to buy into their "We're cancelling the OGL to Stop Hate! Like, y'know, those straight white old cis male OSR players we attacked on PBS!" and they seem genuinely surprised that didn't work. But they keep on trying. Brink riles up conservatives & classical liberals, they get the Pavlovian response from the Left rushing to his defence.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PMNot that the Properly Diverse get actual power or (much) money, they are there to POC-wash the Corporate image.

Would you trust them after you hired them just to fill a slot? Nine times out of ten, they're shit-flinging morons who you couldn't trust to pour piss out of a boot with instructions written on the heel. All they have to do is show up to meetings, act like they're involved and keep their mouths shut while the actual creative staff does the heavy lifting. At best they represent a paycheck given to a midwit to keep that filthy DEI lucre rolling in.

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2023, 07:45:33 PM
Thanks for the genuine question, tenbones!

First as a caveat, in general, I see soulless corporations as a sometimes necessary evil. Lots of my purchases come from soulless corporations (food, appliances, etc.), because life is just too expensive otherwise.  Minimizing costs and maximizing profit has some benefits for society.

Also, I've never been "Ride or Die" for D&D. I've mostly played other RPGs since I was a teenager. I've always hated alignment and the homeless tomb robber premise, and have been ambivalent about classes and Vancian magic.

Ironic since those have been gripes of mine forever too.

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2023, 07:45:33 PM
I'd given 5E a try and found it my favorite of D&D editions, though that didn't make it one of my favorite games. I didn't pay much attention to WotC as an RPG company.

I started looking closer at WotC about 3 years ago, after Pundit said that Candlekeep Mysteries had the combat wheelchair rules in it and that every dungeon since has been wheelchair accessible. I was so incredulous that I bought a copy of Candlekeep Mysteries, and found that there were no wheelchairs in any illustrations or text - and none of the dungeons were accessible (though one had an Egyptian style tomb that had ramps like Egyptian tombs often did).

That put me into defending WotC, simply because the claim against them was so ridiculous. I wasn't a WotC fan, but I thought Candlekeep was decent. The adventures were of mixed quality, but I liked the anthology approach much better than the early 5E modules I had tried, which were terrible quality adventure paths (IMO).

I've noticed this specifically - you would always mention that specific instance. But I've always felt that while you're not wrong, you weren't addressing the *fact* that the game *was* indeed moving into these woke concepts. To me, it was you staring at the tree and not looking at the forest springing up around you. You're never going to get Pundit to admit he was publicly wrong about this instances, but he, and many others here, were right about WotC in the big picture. I liken this instance of using DM's Guild as their testbed for inserting their bullshit into the game, like an anaconda slowly gaining position on its prey with its coils.

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2023, 07:45:33 PMI ended up buying three more WotC books since then, with similar results. The claims against them here mostly didn't match up with what I read. They're not among my favorite RPG products, but they're at least middle of the road -- and the claims against them were completely over-the-top.

Still, I could clearly see a pattern that WotC advertised to liberal gamers with press releases or social media to play up a handful of liberal touches in the books. Those made little difference to the gameplay, but they enraged some posters here, and presumably won a few purchases from liberal gamers. It's similar to how Disney will play up its "we included a gay background character for 3 seconds in one of our movies". Token advertising like that definitely annoyed me, but I have a low opinion of most advertising in general.

Exactly! It's inches into miles. While you think each token aggression is a piffle, it all adds up like the adage "No raindrop thinks its responsible for the flood." Until we find ourselves here.

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2023, 07:45:33 PM
The biggest shift was of course the OGL fiasco, which pushed all my buttons. I'd already been vocal about how current IP restrictions are ridiculous -- and unethically pushing them even harder was a huge issue for me.

Now they're trying similar insincere advertising to try to make up for their OGL fiasco, and I'm finding it even less palatable now. It's still a problem that I can feel defensive when posters point to the Brink interview and say "see, this is what liberals think". But I'm trying to push past that.

But the "liberal" view is now exactly that - Brink wants to see representation at all costs, even if it means white men leave the hobby. While we both agree the OGL debacle is a problem, you're acting as if all the woke stuff is not part of the same pogrom.

*We* are D&D consumers. Very few people here did not grow up playing D&D, or consume it in some fashion. Even if you take the OGL issue out of it, these same people have made it clear they hate us. I find it a little strange that you wish to look past that in lieu of the legalisms that also do not affect your game on any level, anymore than combat wheelchairs affect us from non-core material. It's the reason they exist at all is the problem. It doesn't take mind-reading to know their motives - they're literally telling us.

The hosts of the "3 Black Halflings" podcast are clearly BLM crybabies. Watch the Matt Mercer interview for even more delicious BS. The whole podcast is an attack on a game about elves, dragons and magic -- while they sometimes also play that game. Because they're duplicitous imbeciles.

Quote from: Theory of Games on February 10, 2023, 01:07:43 PM
The hosts of the "3 Black Halflings" podcast are clearly BLM crybabies. Watch the Matt Mercer interview for even more delicious BS. The whole podcast is an attack on a game about elves, dragons and magic -- while they sometimes also play that game. Because they're duplicitous imbeciles.

Did you think they would go to a neutral or right wing podcast?

Sweet summer child.

Kyle Brink spills the beans in another woke podcast:

https://archive.is/lZ4rL (https://archive.is/lZ4rL)

"The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate."

Translation from corporate:

Wotzi is discriminating against straight white normal men.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 10, 2023, 11:34:00 PM
Kyle Brink spills the beans in another woke podcast:

https://archive.is/lZ4rL (https://archive.is/lZ4rL)

"The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate."

Translation from corporate:

Wotzi is discriminating against straight white normal men.

First, they look at the color of a person's skin...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 11, 2023, 04:57:20 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 10, 2023, 11:34:00 PM
Kyle Brink spills the beans in another woke podcast:

https://archive.is/lZ4rL (https://archive.is/lZ4rL)

"The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate."

Translation from corporate:

Wotzi is discriminating against straight white normal men.

First, they look at the color of a person's skin...

Quote from: DannyalcatrazMod Note:

You're not going to win people over with that position. We've actually got actual USA case law- some involving my own law school- that explicitly states that considering race to rectify past racism is not itself racism. Considering the harmed does not harm others; giving someone a hand up to your level after they been denied that progress doesn't push you down.

So you've played this card, but it isn't a winning one. You gambled and lost; all of your poker chips are gone. And so you must leave this particular table.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 11, 2023, 08:02:46 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 11, 2023, 04:57:20 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 10, 2023, 11:34:00 PM
Kyle Brink spills the beans in another woke podcast:

https://archive.is/lZ4rL (https://archive.is/lZ4rL)

"The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate."

Translation from corporate:

Wotzi is discriminating against straight white normal men.

First, they look at the color of a person's skin...

Quote from: DannyalcatrazMod Note:

You're not going to win people over with that position. We've actually got actual USA case law- some involving my own law school- that explicitly states that considering race to rectify past racism is not itself racism. Considering the harmed does not harm others; giving someone a hand up to your level after they been denied that progress doesn't push you down.

So you've played this card, but it isn't a winning one. You gambled and lost; all of your poker chips are gone. And so you must leave this particular table.

I did not see the moderation text. I humbly apologize for my ignorant remark, and beg my peers to forgive me.

If anyone's interested in my serious take, that mod reply is pure rationalization bullshit. *insert your favorite link to Thomas Sowell here*

Quote from: DannyalcatrazMod Note:
You're not going to win people over with that position. We've actually got actual USA case law- some involving my own law school- that explicitly states that considering race to rectify past racism is not itself racism.

False appeal to legal authority on a point of morality. Racist judges being racist doesn't make their decisions or position not-racist. It just makes the racism legal.

It's looking like we'll all be wiping our asses with that case law later this year. The universities don't think affirmative action is going to survive, and are currently working out how they're going to continue their practice of racial discrimination in admissions.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 11, 2023, 05:22:49 PM
It's looking like we'll all be wiping our asses with that case law later this year. The universities don't think affirmative action is going to survive, and are currently working out how they're going to continue their practice of racial discrimination in admissions.

Yep. The law can be in error, and can be changed through process...

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 11, 2023, 08:02:46 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 11, 2023, 04:57:20 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 10, 2023, 11:34:00 PM
Kyle Brink spills the beans in another woke podcast:

https://archive.is/lZ4rL (https://archive.is/lZ4rL)

"The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate."

Translation from corporate:

Wotzi is discriminating against straight white normal men.

First, they look at the color of a person's skin...

Quote from: DannyalcatrazMod Note:

You're not going to win people over with that position. We've actually got actual USA case law- some involving my own law school- that explicitly states that considering race to rectify past racism is not itself racism. Considering the harmed does not harm others; giving someone a hand up to your level after they been denied that progress doesn't push you down.

So you've played this card, but it isn't a winning one. You gambled and lost; all of your poker chips are gone. And so you must leave this particular table.

Dredd Scott was also case law.

Quote from: rusty shackleford on February 11, 2023, 10:07:51 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 11, 2023, 08:02:46 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 11, 2023, 04:57:20 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 10, 2023, 11:34:00 PM
Kyle Brink spills the beans in another woke podcast:

https://archive.is/lZ4rL (https://archive.is/lZ4rL)

"The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate."

Translation from corporate:

Wotzi is discriminating against straight white normal men.

First, they look at the color of a person's skin...

Quote from: DannyalcatrazMod Note:

You're not going to win people over with that position. We've actually got actual USA case law- some involving my own law school- that explicitly states that considering race to rectify past racism is not itself racism. Considering the harmed does not harm others; giving someone a hand up to your level after they been denied that progress doesn't push you down.

So you've played this card, but it isn't a winning one. You gambled and lost; all of your poker chips are gone. And so you must leave this particular table.

Dredd Scott was also case law.

You don't even need to go back that far. The same people saying "a Judge said so, so it's settled" were calling for ignoring the ruling of the 'activist' Judges that overturned Roe vs Wade. As with all things, they do a 180 whenever it suits them.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on February 10, 2023, 04:05:33 AM

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PMNot that the Properly Diverse get actual power or (much) money, they are there to POC-wash the Corporate image.

Would you trust them after you hired them just to fill a slot? Nine times out of ten, they're shit-flinging morons who you couldn't trust to pour piss out of a boot with instructions written on the heel. All they have to do is show up to meetings, act like they're involved and keep their mouths shut while the actual creative staff does the heavy lifting. At best they represent a paycheck given to a midwit to keep that filthy DEI lucre rolling in.

THIS is the core problem of any affirmative action.

In an organization where everyone is hired for merit, co-workers know their fellows have been hired for what they can bring to the table and are thus respected.

In DEI organizations, any non-White employee is immediately suspected to be a diversity hire (and often is) and thus the organization creates distrust, disrespect and animosity among its teams.

That's not the path to long term success.

For neither a company nor a nation.

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 12, 2023, 12:13:16 AM

THIS is the core problem of any affirmative action.

Usually AA does mean lower ability, due to a limited pool of talent. There are exceptions, eg black British actors are grotesquely over represented in both UK & US TV shows and films, partly for AA reasons. But in terms of acting talent they tend to be at least as good as any of the other actors on screen, often better. I've not watched Rings of Power, but I have seen comments "I hate they have a black female dwarf queen in Tolkien, I don't like the actress' political opinions - but she is a very good actor". ie the problem is the inappropriate casting for the setting, the actress herself is good and in a more stylised medium than film or TV, eg opera or stage play, might not be a problem.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 11, 2023, 10:13:20 PMAs with all things, they do a 180 whenever it suits them.

Well, if it weren't for double standards they'd have no standards at all....

Quote from: Ruprecht on February 07, 2023, 06:03:22 PM
There was no bias in the past. Companies chase after the costumers. Initially it was mostly white nerds that were willing to risk the social stigma of wargaming or role playing so companies marketed to them. Then when the stigma was almost entirely gone johnny come lately complain that they were ignored and things must be adjusted to right wrongs.

If you want more people of color and women and gays to play that is fine. Do what it takes to draw in those audiences. Certainly something must attract them other than attacking the white male audience that has been with the game for decades. Do a poll, figure out what might draw them in, chase the customers.

Therein lies a foundation of this cult. The only way to attract more new customers is to drive off your existing customers. And it is a one way street and it only applies to someone else. Someone else has to be put to the sword. Not themselves.