Hi, Kyle,

In your sig, you cite snacks before setting. Can you clarify? Seems to me that setting would come first. Looking back on my gaming over the years, I remember my buddies first, of course -- me and my gaming group had some great times. Second, I think of setting. We stomped all over the Forgotten Realms, shot our way through Chi-Town, and bled all over Arkham.

But what did we eat? I have no idea. Doritos? Pretzels?

So -- why snacks before setting?

If this has been discussed elsewhere, please feel free to point me to that thread.

Thanks!

It's about trying to tap into our monkey brains. "Breaking bread" and sharing food is usually a social bond making thing.

I personally don't rate it nearly as high as Kyle as my experience tells me it isn't even close to essential. Although maybe that's more when meeting on neutral ground? When inviting to someone to your home it tends to be socially expected in nearly all cultures to provide food, possibly for the visitor to bring food. I know it is considered very impolite in a number of cultures if the visitor doesn't stuff themselves like a pig. My mother-in-law (slavic) is very openly disapointed if I don't eat thirds and turning down alcohol is just inconceivable. So I don't think it's got much at all to do with gaming, just where a lot of the gaming occurs.

Quote from: blakkieWhen inviting to someone to your home it tends to be socially expected in nearly all cultures to provide food, possibly for the visitor to bring food. [...] So I don't think it's got much at all to do with gaming, just where a lot of the gaming occurs.

This is basically it.

Sharing food is part of the social experience. There's a reason that people have dates over dinner, visit families once a week to have dinner, and that some sort of food-sharing is a part of many religious rituals.

Whether we had Doritos or Cheetos or whatever isn't important, and as RC said, won't be remembered. The very act of sharing food binds people together.

The thing is that I think of it as a social creative hobby, and the social comes first. You can have a good game session with a crap setting and rules if the people are good and the snacks are, too. You cannot have a good game session with a marvellous setting and rules, but people you don't get along with and bad food.

Now, for a campaign of more than a few sessions, that's where setting comes in as very important, because the players and GM will be more interested in it, more enthusiastic, if the setting is good. And over time if the rules are really good or really bad it'll have an effect.

But session-to-session, the most important thing is the people, and after that, the snacks. I find that gamers are in general quite tolerant of a wide variety and quality of settings and systems, but not so tolerant of bad company or bad food.

It's a social creative hobby.

Probably matters how long you play for too (session length). If it is a short period, if you are time constrained, food just gets in the way of gaming. Longer period? People need energy. Something to drink tends to be more important, you are often talking a lot during the game.

Liking the people you play with though? That is a huge thing. And it's like the game and setting. Yeah people will put up with a lot for a session or two. But longterm all the Cheetos in the world isn't going to gloss over a crap game, crap setting, or some dick sitting across the table.

P.S. One group I play with, and have played with for years, is less and less having food at the table during the game. We only meet for 3 hours, it has become normal not to have anything there. Although there are always glasses and a selection of beverages (usually no alcohol). I notice this mainly because the few times there is it really gets in the way.

When you put it that way, it makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!

Quote from: blakkieProbably matters how long you play for too (session length). If it is a short period, if you are time constrained, food just gets in the way of gaming. Longer period? People need energy.

I must have low energy reserves, we meet up after 7pm and go until 11pm, most of the food is gone by 8:30, though

Quote from: blakkieLiking the people you play with though? That is a huge thing.

I dunno, you don't even have to like them, just get along with them. Works better if you do like 'em, and after a year or two you might stop gaming with them, but "we get along" is usually enough for quite a while. I mean, I genuinely like most of the people I game with, but some there's never quite that "click" - not a clash, but no click either. And that's okay.

Quote from: blakkieYeah people will put up with a lot for a session or two. But longterm all the Cheetos in the world isn't going to gloss over a crap game, crap setting, or some dick sitting across the table.

No snacks will make up for "some dick" because people come before everything else. I'm not sure what you mean by a "crap game" - you mean game session? In this little model of mine, we have


The session isn't some thing strangely off by itself apart from the people, snacks, setting and system - the session is all those things mixed together in a big soup. So if your session's crap, it's because one or more of those four was crap - usually something to do with the people, someone was sleepy or a couple of people didn't get along or whatever.

Quote from: blakkieOne group I play with, and have played with for years, is less and less having food at the table during the game. We only meet for 3 hours, it has become normal not to have anything there. Although there are always glasses and a selection of beverages (usually no alcohol). I notice this mainly because the few times there is it really gets in the way.

Well, in my little model, "snacks" includes drinks. We shouldn't be too pedantic and semantic about some words in a sig, "oh but "snacks" can't possibly mean drinks, how can you have a session without drinks?" this isn't the fucking Forge.

The drinks are addressing a physical limitation of the human body. Especially where I live, in winter single digit relative humidity indoors is common.

'Snacks' are all about the people, a subset of social grease. And still frankly it isn't even close to a universal truism that they help that much or are needed at all. You'd do a lot better just to group it with people and call it 'socialable group of people' or something. Sure it isn't as much a catchy gimick name. :rolleyes: But it would be a lot more instructive and universal.

EDIT: Or better yet 'social/physical atmosphere', keeping it seperate from people. Then people might think about replacing their crappy chairs, think about physical arrangement, environmental noise, getting curtains for that window so I don't have the damn sun in my eyes, etc.

By "crap game" I mean the game system. Of course there are degrees and there is rewritting the game system. EDIT: Same thing with setting. And people can hone their personalities, to a degree. The people I game with now are definately not the same people I started gaming with several years ago, even though they have the same names. I'm not the exact same person either.

P.S.  The people I find longterm tolerable locked in a room with for hours interacting with directly is how I define 'people I like'.

Quote from: blakkie'Snacks' are all about the people, a subset of social grease.

You can reasonably argue that everything is a subset of the social. Then we get into all that "social contract" nonsense and end up spending six weeks preparing for some indie game that never happens because the GM is incapable of just sitting down and playing and sends us essays of Uncle Ronny to read.

Quote from: blakkieAnd still frankly it isn't even close to a universal truism that they help that much or are needed at all.

Well, I've been to game groups where nobody brought any snacks, or where each person brought their own and hunched over them protectively through the session. Those groups didn't last.

Quote from: blakkieOr better yet 'social/physical atmosphere', keeping it seperate from people.

No, then we'd be getting into the longer words which when combined with other longer words which emerge as we debate "what is setting, anyway?" and so on, end up making people's eyes glaze over.

Quote from: blakkieThen people might think about replacing their crappy chairs, think about physical arrangement, environmental noise, getting curtains for that window so I don't have the damn sun in my eyes, etc.

Which is why I write something longer in Cheetoism, about Why Game Groups Fuck Up.

Quote from: blakkieThe people I find longterm tolerable locked in a room with for hours interacting with directly is how I define 'people I like'.

You're locked in the gaming room? Wow, that explains a lot

Quote from: Kyle AaronWell, I've been to game groups where nobody brought any snacks,

Me too. And life and the game went on mysteriously. Huh.

Quoteor where each person brought their own and hunched over them protectively through the session. Those groups didn't last.

Well duh, because the ranks were sown with one or more dicks and/or didn't trust each other. Or it was their supper.  Hey, they were eating snacks! Eating in front of each other (communal eating). Do you really think that throwing down a bowl of chips in front of them would have gotten rid of all the baggage they brought? Because apparently nobody was in a sharing mood (you didn't share?)

Of course I've seen that too, in college. People show up with their supper. I don't expect people to give up their damn supper for me.

QuoteNo, then we'd be getting into the longer words which when combined with other longer words which emerge as we debate "what is setting, anyway?" and so on, end up making people's eyes glaze over.

Dude, my eyes glaze over when you start going on and on about the importance of snacks. Which is actually just a code word for something else. Only you slip back and forth between code word and it being real.

QuoteWhich is why I write something longer in Cheetoism, about Why Game Groups Fuck Up.

*eyes glaze over* Damn man, you makes Ron look on the ball and that's pretty hard to do.

But you've got that one-word, a snappy, empty, "regular joe", misleading word, going for you.

Always serve dinner to your guests.  I'm the GM, and that's what I do.  It's a thing.  

If you bring your own snacks and I perceive you are hunching over them, not only do I snake some (also pirate them) but you won't be back.  Thankfully, the only person that ever did this was a fat ugly chick one of the guys brought.  Neither have ever come back.

I'm not exactly sure what Blakkie is getting at, but I agree completely with Kyle.

There's no doubt food is important. But it really is a subset of the whole social infrastructure. I don't think you can elevate it above, or separate it from, other elements of friendship and trust.

People come first (and I realize this is rather unpopular around here) than system. I realize you can have a fun time with your mates with a bad (for whatever reason) system, but I'd rather be doing something else with them if that's the case.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RPeople come first (and I realize this is rather unpopular around here) than system. I realize you can have a fun time with your mates with a bad (for whatever reason) system, but I'd rather be doing something else with them if that's the case.

Exactly.

I play games I like with people I like. I'll try out new games and new people on fairly broad speculation but in the end it becomes a requirement that I like both. If the people I like really want to play a game I don't like I bow out of the game and do something else with those people, because they are people I like. If I still feel the desire to play I wait till they are ready to switch to a game I [might] like and/or I find new people [that hopefully I'll like] that are playing a game I [might] like.

And sometimes the new people and the old people join up with me and we all play a game, and new friendships result.

Yeah, RPGs are definately a "social game" but I don't lose sight of what the noun is in that phrase.


EDIT: Once upon a time I didn't realize this. I played games I liked with people I didn't like. I played games I didn't like with people I liked. Woe was I.

I game with my closest friends, lifelong buddies since we were kids. Gaming is only one of the things we do together. It probably doesn't even crack the top three. We go to pubs, go hiking, watch hockey, and play in bands. Have dinners and barbeques together with our families.

And we eat before we play. One guy scarfs down some fast food at the beginning of the session, and that irritates the rest of us who ate before the session. It's tough enough to get any gaming done in a 4 hour session on a weeknight without spending half the time serving out food and eating it over our gaming material.

Come to think of it, we rarely eat together unless we're having a sit-down dinner or a barbeque. We don't eat at the pub. Or when we're watching hockey. Or when we're playing music. I guess we're all three meals a day kind of guys.

Of course we always have beer.

Quote from: HaffrungIt's tough enough to get any gaming done in a 4 hour session on a weeknight without spending half the time serving out food and eating it over our gaming material.

In my case, I host the game and each of us contributes some munchies - one player brings the chips, another the dips, another something sweet, while my contribution is the dinner itself.

So at 7pm people arrive, I serve up dinner and we chat and catch up on the events of the week.

By 7:20pm people are usually finished eating and I pass out character sheets as someone collects the dishes and puts them in the sink. Then we break out the munchies and put most of them in dishes in the middle of the table. It's at this time people will be rolling for skill improvement, spending xp or whatever, depending on the system.

About 7:30-7:45pm the game proper begins. As GM I'll point to one player and say, "Hey, tell us what happened last session."

We eat and drink the munchies throughout the session, which usually ends just before 11pm so that any players taking the train can take the one just after that, and those driving and working tomorrow can be home before midnight and sleep.

So while the session is over 4 hours, in practice we get 3 hours of actual gaming. I run a relatively fast-paced game so quite a bit usually gets done in that time, so long as there are no clueless obstructionist players - and those are only maybe one in twenty players, and they never last long.