Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
ALL of those things - Marid, Dao etc. predate Islam. They're regional folklore. Which is an aside - since DnD has co-opted myths and monsters from everywhere. I mean people laugh when I tell them the Penanggalan is a Filipino vampire my uncles used to tell ghost stories to us about when I was growing up - and DnD pretty much did a great job with it in Fiend Folio (the original!). But I get your meaning. I'm just saying by that standard - everyone is ripping off DnD. I think that's a bit light of a standard, but okay.

The point stands that the Witcher game has DnD influences... well my question is where today is DnD being played as published, in terms of setting rigor where the assumptions of the Witcher work, in DnD? And how much content is being produced as such? Unless you do a lot of curtailing of a whole lot of 5e mechanics, you're not likely not playing DnD as it's *normally* engaged today.

The Witcher setting of course is influenced by DnD *in general*. You could draw that line to literally any fantasy RPG if you want to squint. But the games don't play the same. They don't feel the same for thematic and mechanical reasons.

It's not a light standard. There's a clear difference between drawing upon the same public domain sources that D&D did and drawing on conventions invented specifically by D&D. I know this because I researched it. Those Arabic words have completely different meanings in Arabic folklore compared to how D&D contorts them into something unrecognizable.

The word marid just means "ill" in Arabic. Marid are not water genies in actual folklore, that was invented by D&D. The Witcher uses D&D marid, which (along with other things) is very obvious evidence that Witcher is based specifically on D&D rather than the public domain sources that influenced D&D. The wiki page for marid recounts the folklore and there is nothing about water until the section on fantasy roleplaying games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marid I assume that "marid" was chosen for water genies based on very loose sound similarity to the word mermaid, as the prefix mer- has water connotations in English.

And dao? They're not in any folklore. I checked. Dao is just the Chinese word for "way." This is a monster invented by D&D to fill a quota. You could maybe argue it comes from Dushara of Petra, but there's no plausible way you could get the word "dao" from "Dushara" and Dushara's not an earth genie to begin with. I'm not the first person to ask this, dao genies literally didn't exist as a concept prior to D&D: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/c7hxff/what_is_the_mythological_inspirationetymology/

Sapkowski obviously played or at least read D&D books in the 90s when rpgs started being translated into Polish (I assume, but the timeframe isn't clear), and used those as a foundation when worldbuilding his own setting. There are way too many similarities between conventions that were invented by D&D and didn't exist before for it to be coincidence or Sapkowski drawing on public domain sources. Sapkowski uses monsters and variations thereof that were specifically invented for D&D and have no prior examples. Dao earth genies? Marid water genies? Chromatic dragons with breath weapons arranged by color? These are all D&D originals. I know because I researched it. You would be absolutely amazed by how much so-called "ancient folklore" was actually invented by D&D in the 70s and 80s.

If you don't believe me, then do the research yourself like I did. Here's a list of D&D monster origins: https://web.archive.org/web/20180810053344/http://rpg.crg4.com/origins.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20160322083505/http://rpg.crg4.com/originsD.html#dragon
https://web.archive.org/web/20180810051244/http://rpg.crg4.com/originsG.html#genie

Gygax explicitly states that he invented the concept of dragons having specific colors with associated breath weapons. That didn't exist in folklore and it didn't exist in fantasy fiction until he invented it. Or at least if it did exist before in any form, it was obscure enough that Gygax wasn't aware of it even after reading library books for inspiration.

You want an example of an author who wasn't influenced by D&D? J.K. Rowling. She got her inspiration by reading reference books at the library, just like Gygax did. That's why she depicts the basilisk as a giant snake rather than an eight-legged lizard, because Plato described it that way.

The Witcher wiki even admits it.
https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Black_dragon
https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/White_dragon

QuoteThe way they are described in Oko Yrrhedesa and Wiedźmin: Gra Wyobraźni, black dragons seem to be inspired by their D&D counterpart.

QuoteThe way they are described in The Bounds of Reason and in Wiedźmin: Gra Wyobraźni, white dragons seem to be inspired by their D&D counterpart.

Again, if you don't believe me then I challenge you to do your own research and provide evidence that refutes my claim. But I don't think you'll succeed. I think this is all clear evidence that Sapkowski specifically read and took inventions from D&D books, or if not D&D directly then another work that used its inventions. I don't believe he got any of these ideas from public domain sources independently of Gygax's influence, the similarities are too great for that to be the case.

What are you debating with me about precisely? I fully admit it's influenced by DnD, you've convinced me! But it's not influenced by 5e the way DnD is currently played.

I actually do not care if Ifrit, Dao, Githyanki, Orcs or whatever were fictional or not. I'm talking about the presentation of the setting as it's played vs. what modern DnD assumes in most games today as presented by WotC and its ecosphere of players.

The Witcher is tighter in its presentation and focus, how its magic works vs. what it allows players to play, and yes there is a bunch of Polish mythological (and fake ass DnD reskins) shit in there to back that tone up. I don't see Samurai, and Tieflings and Aasimar Warlocks, Barbarian Cat Folk Monks and other stupid shit in there for setting demands.

That's all I'm really saying.

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 12:18:28 PM
What are you debating with me about precisely? I fully admit it's influenced by DnD, you've convinced me! But it's not influenced by 5e the way DnD is currently played.

I actually do not care if Ifrit, Dao, Githyanki, Orcs or whatever were fictional or not. I'm talking about the presentation of the setting as it's played vs. what modern DnD assumes in most games today as presented by WotC and its ecosphere of players.

The Witcher is tighter in its presentation and focus, how its magic works vs. what it allows players to play, and yes there is a bunch of Polish mythological (and fake ass DnD reskins) shit in there to back that tone up. I don't see Samurai, and Tieflings and Aasimar Warlocks, Barbarian Cat Folk Monks and other stupid shit in there for setting demands.

That's all I'm really saying.

Ok, sorry, I missed that. Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that he was influenced by 5e. I don't know how I gave that impression, but I apologize. Witcher is obviously influenced by AD&D 1e or thereabouts, since that's what was popular when the short stories and books were being written. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 21, 2022, 12:24:53 PM
Ok, sorry, I missed that. Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that he was influenced by 5e. I don't know how I gave that impression, but I apologize. Witcher is obviously influenced by AD&D 1e or thereabouts, since that's what was popular when the short stories and books were being written. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that.

No worries! We all know DnD is the sky under which all TTRPG's are played. It's ridiculously hard to not find its DNA in *any* game.

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
The *real* shame is that I do understand the Euro-centric fatigue in fantasy and the desire for other flavors - whether it's Asian or Middle-eastern established fantasy tropes remain as viable options...

The *problem* is the SJW morons have so demonized any and all forms of playing with cultural analogs outside of the European veneer, and have done so with such rabidness, that any attempts to do so are now suspect by us as consumers.

It's a hurdle to consider as a developer - because people get scared of being called racists by the actual racists, but as this is a cottage industry, it starts to look like you *might* just be burning money in order to get a kick in the balls by the usual suspects. (note - I say it starts to appear - this doesn't mean it's a reality).

Lastly - the only offerings apparently free of this reality that are high-production affairs (I'm sure I'm probably wrong about this somewhere so I'm speaking generally) are the shit being served up by SJW's themselves.

There is the added fact that it's very real that while some/many people feel a little Euro-centric fatigue, that the vast majority of players are *not* tired of Euro-centric fantasy. Much more the fact that "Euro-centric" fantasy typically means DnD fantasy which is not really fair to the entirety of the real European cultures that are largely ignored in the DnD Fantasy milieu.

There are some fantastic Euro-inspired settings out there that *need* more GM's pushing them. Symbaroum, The Witcher, are among two that come to mind. I believe with all my heart there is room for fun non-Euro content in DnD... but likely not outside the OSR, with the SJW's controlling the DnD brand.

But I say regardless of what the SJW zombie-hordes out there want, we should all be playing/designing/publishing/homebrewing whatever the fuck we want for those that want to have fun. I *dislike* the fact I'm so suspect of non-Euro themed settings nowadays because of the political lens everyone uses to inform their designs (whether on purpose or not in order to avoid the slings and arrows). We simply have to continue to find those souls willing to create high-quality games and support the shit out of them.

This. Pay attention, folks. When you grumble about everything being generic Eurofantasy, this is why.

Nothing less than abject kneeling before the woke altars will protect you if you try and stray off the beaten path. It's another mutation of the 'cultural appropriation' cancer.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2022, 02:42:59 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
The *real* shame is that I do understand the Euro-centric fatigue in fantasy and the desire for other flavors - whether it's Asian or Middle-eastern established fantasy tropes remain as viable options...

The *problem* is the SJW morons have so demonized any and all forms of playing with cultural analogs outside of the European veneer, and have done so with such rabidness, that any attempts to do so are now suspect by us as consumers.

It's a hurdle to consider as a developer - because people get scared of being called racists by the actual racists, but as this is a cottage industry, it starts to look like you *might* just be burning money in order to get a kick in the balls by the usual suspects. (note - I say it starts to appear - this doesn't mean it's a reality).

Lastly - the only offerings apparently free of this reality that are high-production affairs (I'm sure I'm probably wrong about this somewhere so I'm speaking generally) are the shit being served up by SJW's themselves.

There is the added fact that it's very real that while some/many people feel a little Euro-centric fatigue, that the vast majority of players are *not* tired of Euro-centric fantasy. Much more the fact that "Euro-centric" fantasy typically means DnD fantasy which is not really fair to the entirety of the real European cultures that are largely ignored in the DnD Fantasy milieu.

There are some fantastic Euro-inspired settings out there that *need* more GM's pushing them. Symbaroum, The Witcher, are among two that come to mind. I believe with all my heart there is room for fun non-Euro content in DnD... but likely not outside the OSR, with the SJW's controlling the DnD brand.

But I say regardless of what the SJW zombie-hordes out there want, we should all be playing/designing/publishing/homebrewing whatever the fuck we want for those that want to have fun. I *dislike* the fact I'm so suspect of non-Euro themed settings nowadays because of the political lens everyone uses to inform their designs (whether on purpose or not in order to avoid the slings and arrows). We simply have to continue to find those souls willing to create high-quality games and support the shit out of them.

This. Pay attention, folks. When you grumble about everything being generic Eurofantasy, this is why.

Nothing less than abject kneeling before the woke altars will protect you if you try and stray off the beaten path. It's another mutation of the 'cultural appropriation' cancer.

Yeah, when wondering what caused this particular incident, and the cultural zeitgeist that it reflects, this stuff is relevant as hell.

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
[...] I mean people laugh when I tell them the Penanggalan is a Filipino vampire my uncles used to tell ghost stories to us about when I was growing up - and DnD pretty much did a great job with it in Fiend Folio (the original!).

You know, total aside, but...

I just learned about the Penanggalan this summer, which came from delving into Philippine mythology a bit, and then I went deeper. Am reading books by Jocano, Demetrio, and Ramos. I had been looking for new inspiration for a Call of Cthulhu scenario I am writing, and wow, what a motherlode. Not just Philippine folklore, but also Malay, Laotian, et al.

That monster is a nightmare on, well...what's the word for not having a waist and two legs?

Quote from: anthologos on September 21, 2022, 08:21:58 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
[...] I mean people laugh when I tell them the Penanggalan is a Filipino vampire my uncles used to tell ghost stories to us about when I was growing up - and DnD pretty much did a great job with it in Fiend Folio (the original!).

You know, total aside, but...

I just learned about the Penanggalan this summer, which came from delving into Philippine mythology a bit, and then I went deeper. Am reading books by Jocano, Demetrio, and Ramos. I had been looking for new inspiration for a Call of Cthulhu scenario I am writing, and wow, what a motherlode. Not just Philippine folklore, but also Malay, Laotian, et al.

That monster is a nightmare on, well...what's the word for not having a waist and two legs?

Bisect?

Quote from: ponta1010 on September 21, 2022, 11:23:44 PM

Quote from: anthologos on September 21, 2022, 08:21:58 PM
That monster is a nightmare on, well...what's the word for not having a waist and two legs?

Bisect?

Or "purely platonic relationship."

Quote from: KindaMeh on September 21, 2022, 03:44:16 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2022, 02:42:59 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
The *real* shame is that I do understand the Euro-centric fatigue in fantasy and the desire for other flavors - whether it's Asian or Middle-eastern established fantasy tropes remain as viable options...

The *problem* is the SJW morons have so demonized any and all forms of playing with cultural analogs outside of the European veneer, and have done so with such rabidness, that any attempts to do so are now suspect by us as consumers.

It's a hurdle to consider as a developer - because people get scared of being called racists by the actual racists, but as this is a cottage industry, it starts to look like you *might* just be burning money in order to get a kick in the balls by the usual suspects. (note - I say it starts to appear - this doesn't mean it's a reality).

Lastly - the only offerings apparently free of this reality that are high-production affairs (I'm sure I'm probably wrong about this somewhere so I'm speaking generally) are the shit being served up by SJW's themselves.

There is the added fact that it's very real that while some/many people feel a little Euro-centric fatigue, that the vast majority of players are *not* tired of Euro-centric fantasy. Much more the fact that "Euro-centric" fantasy typically means DnD fantasy which is not really fair to the entirety of the real European cultures that are largely ignored in the DnD Fantasy milieu.

There are some fantastic Euro-inspired settings out there that *need* more GM's pushing them. Symbaroum, The Witcher, are among two that come to mind. I believe with all my heart there is room for fun non-Euro content in DnD... but likely not outside the OSR, with the SJW's controlling the DnD brand.

But I say regardless of what the SJW zombie-hordes out there want, we should all be playing/designing/publishing/homebrewing whatever the fuck we want for those that want to have fun. I *dislike* the fact I'm so suspect of non-Euro themed settings nowadays because of the political lens everyone uses to inform their designs (whether on purpose or not in order to avoid the slings and arrows). We simply have to continue to find those souls willing to create high-quality games and support the shit out of them.

This. Pay attention, folks. When you grumble about everything being generic Eurofantasy, this is why.

Nothing less than abject kneeling before the woke altars will protect you if you try and stray off the beaten path. It's another mutation of the 'cultural appropriation' cancer.

Yeah, when wondering what caused this particular incident, and the cultural zeitgeist that it reflects, this stuff is relevant as hell.

Agreed.

There's a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation. Something like the deer skull headed cryptid on creepypasta pages called "wendigo" is blatant cultural appropriation of the name of a monster from Ojibwe religion that is completely different in its true form and isn't appreciated. I'm not gonna give you the complete history because there are books about it, but basically the real wendigo is a shapeless personification of greed and gluttony, particularly capitalist excess in modern contexts. In ancient times it was associated with winter and cannibalism due to the lack of food available then, but this aspect is no longer relevant in modern times when heating and food is widely available year round. Tribes of the Pacific Northwest used to hold potlucks where they would burn their possessions to symbolize how they don't let the wendigo corrupt them... naturally the settlers outlawed this practice because it conflicted with EuroAmerican values of accumulating wealth. Nobody appreciates the original monster or the message behind it, which is now more relevant than ever in our clickbait dystopia, while a bland lie with zero symbolism behind it has traveled around the world via internet. That's the tragedy of cultural appropriation.

SJWs confuse cultural appreciation with appropriation and ruin appreciation for everyone else. The world is full of cultures that go unappreciated outside of their own cultural bubbles. It's a huge loss for humanity

Quote from: anthologos on September 21, 2022, 08:21:58 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
[...] I mean people laugh when I tell them the Penanggalan is a Filipino vampire my uncles used to tell ghost stories to us about when I was growing up - and DnD pretty much did a great job with it in Fiend Folio (the original!).

You know, total aside, but...

I just learned about the Penanggalan this summer, which came from delving into Philippine mythology a bit, and then I went deeper. Am reading books by Jocano, Demetrio, and Ramos. I had been looking for new inspiration for a Call of Cthulhu scenario I am writing, and wow, what a motherlode. Not just Philippine folklore, but also Malay, Laotian, et al.

That monster is a nightmare on, well...what's the word for not having a waist and two legs?

Yeah! Southeast Asian mythology and folklore is ripe for some Cthulhu/horror RPG mining!

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
Yeah it bums me out RTS crew pantomimes woke bullshit in their private lives... but these days it's almost the norm for such virtue signaling. I don't find that their games themselves have much woke bullshit in them that isn't contextual (Cyberpunk for example). Thankfully.

Emphasis mine: how easily we give ground!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 22, 2022, 11:30:46 AM

Quote from: KindaMeh on September 21, 2022, 03:44:16 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2022, 02:42:59 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
The *real* shame is that I do understand the Euro-centric fatigue in fantasy and the desire for other flavors - whether it's Asian or Middle-eastern established fantasy tropes remain as viable options...

The *problem* is the SJW morons have so demonized any and all forms of playing with cultural analogs outside of the European veneer, and have done so with such rabidness, that any attempts to do so are now suspect by us as consumers.

It's a hurdle to consider as a developer - because people get scared of being called racists by the actual racists, but as this is a cottage industry, it starts to look like you *might* just be burning money in order to get a kick in the balls by the usual suspects. (note - I say it starts to appear - this doesn't mean it's a reality).

Lastly - the only offerings apparently free of this reality that are high-production affairs (I'm sure I'm probably wrong about this somewhere so I'm speaking generally) are the shit being served up by SJW's themselves.

There is the added fact that it's very real that while some/many people feel a little Euro-centric fatigue, that the vast majority of players are *not* tired of Euro-centric fantasy. Much more the fact that "Euro-centric" fantasy typically means DnD fantasy which is not really fair to the entirety of the real European cultures that are largely ignored in the DnD Fantasy milieu.

There are some fantastic Euro-inspired settings out there that *need* more GM's pushing them. Symbaroum, The Witcher, are among two that come to mind. I believe with all my heart there is room for fun non-Euro content in DnD... but likely not outside the OSR, with the SJW's controlling the DnD brand.

But I say regardless of what the SJW zombie-hordes out there want, we should all be playing/designing/publishing/homebrewing whatever the fuck we want for those that want to have fun. I *dislike* the fact I'm so suspect of non-Euro themed settings nowadays because of the political lens everyone uses to inform their designs (whether on purpose or not in order to avoid the slings and arrows). We simply have to continue to find those souls willing to create high-quality games and support the shit out of them.

This. Pay attention, folks. When you grumble about everything being generic Eurofantasy, this is why.

Nothing less than abject kneeling before the woke altars will protect you if you try and stray off the beaten path. It's another mutation of the 'cultural appropriation' cancer.

Yeah, when wondering what caused this particular incident, and the cultural zeitgeist that it reflects, this stuff is relevant as hell.

Agreed.

There's a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation. Something like the deer skull headed cryptid on creepypasta pages called "wendigo" is blatant cultural appropriation of the name of a monster from Ojibwe religion that is completely different in its true form and isn't appreciated. I'm not gonna give you the complete history because there are books about it, but basically the real wendigo is a shapeless personification of greed and gluttony, particularly capitalist excess in modern contexts. In ancient times it was associated with winter and cannibalism due to the lack of food available then, but this aspect is no longer relevant in modern times when heating and food is widely available year round. Tribes of the Pacific Northwest used to hold potlucks where they would burn their possessions to symbolize how they don't let the wendigo corrupt them... naturally the settlers outlawed this practice because it conflicted with EuroAmerican values of accumulating wealth. Nobody appreciates the original monster or the message behind it, which is now more relevant than ever in our clickbait dystopia, while a bland lie with zero symbolism behind it has traveled around the world via internet. That's the tragedy of cultural appropriation.

SJWs confuse cultural appreciation with appropriation and ruin appreciation for everyone else. The world is full of cultures that go unappreciated outside of their own cultural bubbles. It's a huge loss for humanity

I'll take it a step further (and you may not agree).

People are not entitled to decide what degree someone appreciates a "thing". That is the heart of all of this nonsense. I'm TOTALLY guilty of it. We all are. The only difference is while I might call you a fucking monster for drinking Starbucks, and be vitriolic, I'm always doing in it in fun - because while I think you might not know better, I *know* I've been in that boat on a LOT of things.

Do I care that many Anime lovers todays have never watched Akira? Or that people now think there were tons of female ninjas around "back in the day"? Or that Chinese food here in America is actually Chinese? No. And while I know the nuance of all these things - that for that individual these things are fun and True(tm) it doesn't mean they *hate* what I know is larger in scope.

The problem with SJW's is they believe *they* know the One True Way about anything "Non-white" (whatever that means) and pretending to speak for entire cultures that aren't theirs (real or imagined) for the sole purpose of censoring anyone that believes different because they have pathologically attached their own unease at "The Others" upon anything and everything that differs from them.

This applies to gaming, movies, speech, anything that requires interpersonal communication. They make up these fancy terms to give themselves some legitimacy for their pathological views, and then of course, insist you use them too.

I want people to have fun. It's funny I see this even among OSR people too (Pundit does this a little bit) - where they will shit on books like Oriental Adventure or Al-Qadim for not being "authentic" enough to those respective cultures... BUT most of the time (and this includes Pundit) they have the good graces to put an asterisk on those views by saying "Well look, this is what we had at the time, we didn't know better." And this is very true.

I *love* Oriental Adventures. LOVE IT. YES because it's Black Belt theater. I'm Asian, and I don't love it *just* because it's "Asian". It's completely chuckle-worthy as American-circa-early-80's view of Asian cultures by way of D&D. Because if we're being **HONEST** D&D's take on "European" cultures is equally silly.

Al-Qadim is a wonderful Americanized Sinbad and Arabian Nights sendoff. Shitting on it, would be like shitting on MtG's "Arabian Nights" sendoff which was largely inspired by a single copy of 'Ramadan' from the Sandman comic (which alone is guilty of the same thing - but it's BEAUTIFUL in its presentation).

This mind-reading thing for the purpose of determining the intent of the author is fucking retarded. The bottom line should always be: is it fun? Do your players enjoy what you're presenting? Do you enjoy what you're presenting? If so - GOOD. Do More of That.

Otherwise we're gonna have to cancel Taco Bell for appropriating "Mexican Food" and McDonalds for desecrating "Irish cuisine" culture. (but we'll be watching you while you eat that Burrito Grande after a late night-binge.)

Quote from: Zalman on September 22, 2022, 11:50:46 AM

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
Yeah it bums me out RTS crew pantomimes woke bullshit in their private lives... but these days it's almost the norm for such virtue signaling. I don't find that their games themselves have much woke bullshit in them that isn't contextual (Cyberpunk for example). Thankfully.

Emphasis mine: how easily we give ground!

I'm calling it as it is. I have a marginal tolerance level of the shit that stains our hobby - and everything else we consume. I *game*, but there has never been a time where I don't curate the shit out of what I consume. This was true in the 70's, same is true now.

Cyberpunk as my example apparently requires some context (I trust you never played it?). Part of the context of cyberpunk is that is PREDICTED *all* of this Woke Identitarian bullshit as part of the reason why the United States society collapsed.



The entirety of the game is littered with elements of post-apocalyptic tribalism - including things that Woke cultists today would claim they want: Transhumanism, gender reassignment, among other things - as part of the game. The difference is - even in the Cyberpunk game it's looked upon as arbitrary to the realities of what matters in the game. Most of that shit is satirical. But there is plenty of racial tribalism and class tribalism as a genre conceit.

You won't find any of that shit in my fantasy games because it's not appropriate to my genre needs. But if I'm running Cyberpunk and you want to put a cyber-vagina on your male character, be prepared to have it filled by unwanted guests when you make the wrong enemies. Hazards of the genre.