TheRPGSite

"Last week, we were rightfully called out for culturally insensitive ideas presented in Complete Kobold Guide to Game Design, a title in our back catalog.
Since the collection of essays was published, we have grown and changed our design ethos to ensure that characters are from the areas they adventure in, as opposed to being tourists. We wholeheartedly agree: real-world cultures are not playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.
We have amended the offending essay and replaced it on our website and on DriveThruRPG.com.
We are incredibly sorry for the hurt our essay has caused."

So, two questions:

1. Does that mean no modern world games and no games whose culture draws from any real-world culture, past or present?
2. If the answer to #1 is no, what can we use to build game world cultures from?

Exactly, PulpHerb.  It makes zero sense.  Every culture would have to be totally alien and I don't think there's a GM around that could do that, and maintain it, for every possible culture out there.  One or two, sure, but everything but be completely unique/not-of-this-world?

This is where it goes to straight up lunacy.  And what "hurt" does this cause?  I mean, if someone uses their game platform to mock a certain culture, ok, call them out on it and make them stop or don't play.

But the mere suggestion that certain game places could be based on real world cultures?  This inflicts hurt on someone?  We need a term that is more fragile than "snowflakes" any more.

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on September 14, 2022, 12:59:32 PM
But the mere suggestion that certain game places could be based on real world cultures?  This inflicts hurt on someone?  We need a term that is more fragile than "snowflakes" any more.

I think Mr. Welch got to the heart of it here when he notes most people are excited when they find out you want to use their culture in their world and can't help but tell you tons of things to use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiaPFOaas50

Quote from: Hixanthrope on September 14, 2022, 12:14:36 PM
"Last week, we were rightfully called out for culturally insensitive ideas presented in Complete Kobold Guide to Game Design, a title in our back catalog.
Since the collection of essays was published, we have grown and changed our design ethos to ensure that characters are from the areas they adventure in, as opposed to being tourists. We wholeheartedly agree: real-world cultures are not playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.
We have amended the offending essay and replaced it on our website and on DriveThruRPG.com.
We are incredibly sorry for the hurt our essay has caused."

So they are now saying that characters should only adventure in the place where they are from?  Is that a 50 mile radius?  A 100 mile radius?  The country in which they were born?  The continent upon which they were born?

This sounds like "Anti-Colonialist" garbage.

Quote from: Jam The MF on September 14, 2022, 01:18:35 PM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on September 14, 2022, 12:14:36 PM
"Last week, we were rightfully called out for culturally insensitive ideas presented in Complete Kobold Guide to Game Design, a title in our back catalog.
Since the collection of essays was published, we have grown and changed our design ethos to ensure that characters are from the areas they adventure in, as opposed to being tourists. We wholeheartedly agree: real-world cultures are not playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.
We have amended the offending essay and replaced it on our website and on DriveThruRPG.com.
We are incredibly sorry for the hurt our essay has caused."

So they are now saying that characters should only adventure in the place where they are from?  Is that a 50 mile radius?  A 100 mile radius?  The country in which they were born?  The continent upon which they were born?

This sounds like "Anti-Colonialist" garbage.

real-world cultures are not playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.

But real world left wing PC antics are allowed? Well, it's good the pronouns-using trannyfuckers are here to set us straight. Pun.

Quote from: Plagued on September 14, 2022, 01:27:04 PM
Well, it's good the pronouns-using trannyfuckers are here to set us straight. Pun.

OK, I'll admit to laughing at this.

OK, so "run wildly in."  I guess I could see the issue here, but again, only if people were deliberately making mockery of a place, etc.  But have the balls to have a conversation with people that act like jerks.  It's almost like everyone is so conflict-averse that rather than having a tough conversation with someone who's behaving poorly, they just want a law that someone else, therefore, has to enforce.  Pretty ironic since it's coming from the defund crowd.

I have no idea what the fuck is actually going on. What was the original essay and what is the revised version for comparison?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 14, 2022, 01:34:09 PM
I have no idea what the fuck is actually going on. What was the original essay and what is the revised version for comparison?

I'm looking at my copy to figure that out now.

My guesses are it is one of the following:

How Real is Your World? On History and Setting by Wolfgang Baur
Bringing History to Life by Keith Baker

I can't say I'm surprised. I saw volume 3 at the FLGS and looking through it thought it would make Monte Cook Games blush while being asked out by Evil Hat.

So things have gotten so bad, that we now need restrictions on playing make-believe fantasy games?

Homebrew.  Do what you want to do.  Piss on that silly SJW nonsense.

RPGs are just another flavor of storytelling and acting.

If one wanted to be consistent about this, then no author could write about about a "real world culture" that they're not a part of, nor an actor play a role from another culture.

What's especially insidious about this is that RPGs allow ordinary people--who may not be authors or actors--to be creative storytellers and to imagine they're someone they're not--even (perish the thought!) from another "real-world culture" of which they're not a part.  But here, it's saying you can't do this...you can't put yourself in the shoes of someone from another "real-world culture".

Kiss goodbye to learning about people who are different from you by trying to see things from another point of view.

RPGs allow a flexibility in imagination that is unmatched in other forms of entertainment.  But these puritanical Nazis are trying to tell others what they can and cannot imagine.  They are literally trying to police your dreams.  Bloody fascists, and that's no exaggeration.

Here's the source of the hub bub:
https://whatdoiknowjr.com/2022/09/10/spring-break-and-kobold-press/

In summary woke critic needs to tear down ex-TSR employee's work from 12 years ago that was republished in a 2nd edition of an old book because the current Kickstarter has the audacity to include bio-essentialism in ability scores.

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 14, 2022, 01:36:48 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 14, 2022, 01:34:09 PM
I have no idea what the fuck is actually going on. What was the original essay and what is the revised version for comparison?

I'm looking at my copy to figure that out now.

My guesses are it is one of the following:

How Real is Your World? On History and Setting by Wolfgang Baur
Bringing History to Life by Keith Baker

I can't say I'm surprised. I saw volume 3 at the FLGS and looking through it thought it would make Monte Cook Games blush while being asked out by Evil Hat.

Yeah, those essays are completely absent from the digital copy I just purchased to check. How many essays are there supposed to be? My copy has 40

Quote from: Palleon on September 14, 2022, 01:43:44 PM
Here's the source of the hub bub:
https://whatdoiknowjr.com/2022/09/10/spring-break-and-kobold-press/

In summary woke critic needs to tear down ex-TSR employee's work from 12 years ago that was republished in a 2nd edition of an old book because the current Kickstarter has the audacity to include bio-essentialism in ability scores.

"What Makes a Night Arabian?" is still in my copy on page 165-7. Does anyone have the original for comparison?

Here's the full text in my copy, the edited version:

Quote24
inbad, Scheherazade, and Saladin. Cinematic action. Deserts, camels,
and full-blooded horses. Rocs, cyclops, and a phoenix. Harems,
star-crossed lovers, and forbidden romance. Ghuls, genies, bandits, and
moustache-twisting viziers.
What really makes an adventure Arabian? How do we define a subgenre?
How much is rules, and how much is execution?
It's Not Mechanical
What makes an Arabian adventure work is not rules; it's the story and the
flavor that matter. It's the glory of huge treasures and quick death beneath
the sands. It's a change of tone and scenery.
That is hard to design well. Anyone can put a sphinx in the desert
and run a combat. But why is the sphinx there? What questions can she
answer? Is she an oracle? Does she love an androsphinx, perhaps even
pine for him? Now we're getting somewhere. Having focused, controlled
backstory that drives player action to the center of the story is the trick
to a successful Arabian adventure. Grand, sweeping plots should be
distilled down to their essences. Creating new rules or monsters is useful
if it supports the scenery and simplifies the action. Creating fun, exotic
people and setting them in motion quickly helps a designer capture the
storytelling side of the Arabian Nights.
Great, you say, how do we weave this carpet of compelling, exotic story?
One strand at a time.
S
166 Complete KOBOLD Guide to Game Design, Second Edition
Clear Heroes and Villains
Other campaign worlds stress shades of grey; a fantasy Arabia shouldn't. The
appeal of Sinbad or the Thief of Baghdad is that you know where you stand.
Sinbad will sail into terrible danger and escape it through cleverness and
bravery. We know the lover who recovers great treasures to win the hand of
the Sultan's daughter is going to make it. It is the journey that matters.
Villains make straightforward attacks on heroes without too much
dissembling. They aren't skulking—well, the assassins are—but many are
quite clearly big bad evil dudes. No misunderstood villains; they really
resonate as the power grabber, the manipulative vizier, or the rapacious
bandit who really does want your money. All of it.
Player Character Attitudes
Antiheroes are out. Rogues and rascals must have hearts of gold,
bandits must have honor, and all true heroes must keep their word. To
do otherwise is shameful. No one—least of all the Sultan—will trust a
shameful oathbreaker.
Indeed, the original Al-Qadim setting included oathbinding genies
as part of the setting, whose task was to magically compel dishonorable
characters to keep their word. This sense of personal honor, even for the
poorest PC, may drive a party of heroes more than gold.
This is something you need to know about the audience as a designer
and know about your players as a DM. Will they go help star-crossed
lovers? Will they choose the right thing over greed? Are they idealists or
pragmatists? Once you know, you're in great shape. My assumption is that
if you want to play in or run an Arabian Nights setting, you have at least a
bit of a heroic streak, rather than being purely mercenary.
What About the Rubies?
All this is not to say that player characters can't be greedy. But wealth is a
consequence of correct, heroic action. It is not a goal in itself.
This is the hardest thing for players about Arabian adventure: gaining
and losing treasures in a hurry. I think a great Arabian campaign hits
the heights and the gutter fairly often. Sinbad shipwrecked constantly.
Douglass Fairbanks' thief only pretended to be a prince, but he was able to
best true princes for love. PC heroes probably aren't fighting for love (it's a
tough motive to pin on a party of 4 to 6 characters at once...), but they are
able to rise to the Sultan's court and return to the status of peasants in the
arc of a campaign.
I think it is entirely in character for a first-level Arabian adventure to
hand the party an insanely expensive, pure white warhorse—and then to
lose it after just a session or two, to a hungry efreet or a conniving horse
What Makes a Night Arabian? h Wolfgang Baur 167
thief (who later offers it back to the party in exchange for a quest). This is
what Fate can mean on an individual level: quick changes of fortune are
part of the atmosphere.
Strange but Familiar
We understand the desert raider and the caliph as stereotypes, enough that
players and DMs are not adrift with the culture. Stereotypes work for us,
providing anchors to start from. It is fun to trade warhorses for war
camels when the underlying logic of the setting is similar, with a few
tweaks around the sacred status of hospitality, the nature of religion, and
the role of the elemental forces in the wilderness.
Nested Stories
For the advanced designer or DM, the nested nature of some Arabian
tales, using flashbacks and stories-within-a-story, could yield excellent
results. In game play, this is easy to do: when the party visits the oracle or
the storyteller in the market, they hear the start of a story. Play out the
primary combat or scene within it, and then return to the main story. The
same thing can be done with a mirror or dream—you fill in the outer shell
as a framing device for the core story.
Or you may decide that it's more literal, and characters are whisked away
by genies from the present day to the founding of the Sultanate, or the Age
of Giants, or a roiling typhoon around a zaratan. They complete an entire
adventure before the genie whisks them back to report to the Sultan.
Conclusion
Arabian adventure requires mastery of tone and the simple presentation
of the exotic. Clothing, sensory details, monster selection, and all other
elements of the setting are important to convey a culture that is familiar
enough to be playable, but strange enough to appeal to our sense of the
exotic and wondrous. Little bits of extra storytelling will win you big
points with players interested in an Arabian theme, and the subgenre
makes for an excellent break from traditional fantasy

Okay, here's the original version for comparison (from the 1st edition, I couldn't find the unedited 2nd edition):

Quote24
inbad, Scheherazade, and Saladin. Cinematic action. Deserts, camels,
and full-blooded horses. Rocs, cyclops, and a phoenix. Harems,
star-crossed lovers, and forbidden romance. Ghuls, genies, bandits, and
moustache-twisting viziers.
What really makes an adventure Arabian? How do we define a subgenre?
How much is rules, and how much is execution?
It's Not Mechanical
What makes an Arabian adventure work is not rules; it's the story and the
flavor that matter. It's the glory of huge treasures and quick death beneath
the sands. It's a change of tone and scenery.
That is hard to design well. Anyone can put a sphinx in the desert
and run a combat. But why is the sphinx there? What questions can she
answer? Is she an oracle? Does she love an androsphinx, perhaps even
pine for him? Now we're getting somewhere. Having focused, controlled
backstory that drives player action to the center of the story is the trick
to a successful Arabian adventure. Grand, sweeping plots should be
distilled down to their essences. Creating new rules or monsters is useful
if it supports the scenery and simplifies the action. Creating fun, exotic
people and setting them in motion quickly helps a designer capture the
storytelling side of the Arabian Nights.
Great, you say, how do we weave this carpet of compelling, exotic story?
One strand at a time.
S
166 Complete KOBOLD Guide to Game Design, Second Edition
Clear Heroes and Villains
Other campaign worlds stress shades of grey; a fantasy Arabia shouldn't. The
appeal of Sinbad or the Thief of Baghdad is that you know where you stand.
Sinbad will sail into terrible danger and escape it through cleverness and
bravery. We know the lover who recovers great treasures to win the hand of
the Sultan's daughter is going to make it. It is the journey that matters.
Villains make straightforward attacks on heroes without too much
dissembling. They aren't skulking—well, the assassins are—but many are
quite clearly big bad evil dudes. No misunderstood villains; they really
resonate as the power grabber, the manipulative vizier, or the rapacious
bandit who really does want your money. All of it.
Player Character Attitudes
Antiheroes are out. Rogues and rascals must have hearts of gold,
bandits must have honor, and all true heroes must keep their word. To
do otherwise is shameful. No one—least of all the Sultan—will trust a
shameful oathbreaker.
Indeed, the original Al-Qadim setting included oathbinding genies
as part of the setting, whose task was to magically compel dishonorable
characters to keep their word. This sense of personal honor, even for the
poorest PC, may drive a party of heroes more than gold.
This is something you need to know about the audience as a designer
and know about your players as a DM. Will they go help star-crossed
lovers? Will they choose the right thing over greed? Are they idealists or
pragmatists? Once you know, you're in great shape. My assumption is that
if you want to play in or run an Arabian Nights setting, you have at least a
bit of a heroic streak, rather than being purely mercenary.
What About the Rubies?
All this is not to say that player characters can't be greedy. But wealth is a
consequence of correct, heroic action. It is not a goal in itself.
This is the hardest thing for players about Arabian adventure: gaining
and losing treasures in a hurry. I think a great Arabian campaign hits
the heights and the gutter fairly often. Sinbad shipwrecked constantly.
Douglass Fairbanks' thief only pretended to be a prince, but he was able to
best true princes for love. PC heroes probably aren't fighting for love (it's a
tough motive to pin on a party of 4 to 6 characters at once...), but they are
able to rise to the Sultan's court and return to the status of peasants in the
arc of a campaign.
I think it is entirely in character for a first-level Arabian adventure to
hand the party an insanely expensive, pure white warhorse—and then to
lose it after just a session or two, to a hungry efreet or a conniving horse
What Makes a Night Arabian? h Wolfgang Baur 167
thief (who later offers it back to the party in exchange for a quest). This is
what Fate can mean on an individual level: quick changes of fortune are
part of the atmosphere.
Strange but Familiar
We understand the desert raider and the caliph as stereotypes, enough that
players and DMs are not adrift with the culture. Stereotypes work for us,
providing anchors to start from. It is fun to trade warhorses for war
camels when the underlying logic of the setting is similar, with a few
tweaks around the sacred status of hospitality, the nature of religion, and
the role of the elemental forces in the wilderness.
Nested Stories
For the advanced designer or DM, the nested nature of some Arabian
tales, using flashbacks and stories-within-a-story, could yield excellent
results. In game play, this is easy to do: when the party visits the oracle or
the storyteller in the market, they hear the start of a story. Play out the
primary combat or scene within it, and then return to the main story. The
same thing can be done with a mirror or dream—you fill in the outer shell
as a framing device for the core story.
Or you may decide that it's more literal, and characters are whisked away
by genies from the present day to the founding of the Sultanate, or the Age
of Giants, or a roiling typhoon around a zaratan. They complete an entire
adventure before the genie whisks them back to report to the Sultan.
Conclusion
Arabian adventure requires mastery of tone and the simple presentation
of the exotic. Clothing, sensory details, monster selection, and all other
elements of the setting are important to convey a culture that is familiar
enough to be playable, but strange enough to appeal to our sense of the
exotic and wondrous. Little bits of extra storytelling will win you big
points with players interested in an Arabian theme, and the subgenre
makes for an excellent break from traditional fantasy

I used a text compare site and it turns out that the two versions are identical except they excised that one paragraph that the blogger complained about.

Honestly, the essay is kinda useless before and after the revision. Especially the "Strange but Familiar" section. Obviously fantasy Araby is a stock fantasy counterpart and not an actual depiction of the Middle East, but that section is needlessly dismissive of worldbuilding based on research and doesn't present useful advice. And the bit about Araby just being a momentary theme park attraction in an otherwise pseudo European campaign really is offensive to any GM who wants to set their whole campaign there or any designer who spends effort on making whole books about it.

I do think it's making a mountain out of a molehill and cutting out the paragraph doesn't accomplish anything. It needs to be completely rewritten to be actually useful to GMs and not insulting to people who like Arabian settings

Quote from: Jam The MF on September 14, 2022, 01:40:16 PM
So things have gotten so bad, that we now need restrictions on playing make-believe fantasy games?

Homebrew.  Do what you want to do.  Piss on that silly SJW nonsense.

<3

So, this is the paragraph that had everybody's panties in a twist:

QuoteArabia is the D&D world's version of Spring Break: you go there for a change of scenery. For this game, you don't want or need to understand the difference between Shiite and Sunni, or the difference between Persian folklore and Arabian folklore. You just need to know whether the fire mages are on your side or not, and maybe a few simple rules of behavior: the bond of salt, the times of prayer, or the correct way to speed a camel through the desert.

Let's try a little experiment and change some things up.

QuoteThe Savage North is the D&D world's version of Spring Break: you go there for a change of scenery. For this game, you don't want or need to understand the difference between Aesir and Vanir, or the difference between Norse folklore and Germanic folklore. You just need to know whether the ice mages are on your side or not, and maybe a few simple rules of behavior: the bond of fire, the times of prayer, or the correct way to walk in snow shoes through the tundra.

Are you white people offended by that?
No?! Ohh...

The fact that the linked article opens with, "Someday, in some glorious future, white people won't say stupid things that show how oblivious they are to the things that people of color have had to deal with, every day, ever since someone decided to define some people as white to begin with," tells you ALL you need to know about the real motivation behind this "outrage:" it was a white dude talking about brown culture. OF COURSE there had to be something racist in there... they just needed to dig around really good and look for it.

Also, author of article says this: "[Being white] also means that I need to address problems when they come up, especially when it's in media I enjoy and promote, and when it was produced by people that have similar privilege to what I enjoy." Don't worry brown folx! The White Savior is here to free you from the oppression of tepidly-worded guides on world building.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 14, 2022, 01:56:44 PM
Okay, here's the original version for comparison

For those of us who don't want to do the same work you already did, can you paste just the excised part? Thanks!


EDIT: Thanks Effete

Counterpoint: Real-world cultures ARE playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 14, 2022, 04:00:21 PM
Counterpoint: Real-world cultures ARE playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.

Hey, real-world ... quit calling Daytona your "Spring Break destination", bigots!

Sincerely,
Offended in Florida

Quote from: Palleon on September 14, 2022, 01:43:44 PM
Here's the source of the hub bub:
https://whatdoiknowjr.com/2022/09/10/spring-break-and-kobold-press/

In summary woke critic needs to tear down ex-TSR employee's work from 12 years ago that was republished in a 2nd edition of an old book because the current Kickstarter has the audacity to include bio-essentialism in ability scores.

Good god, what the hell was that?  Another weak willed beta apologizing because he's a straight, white, male.  Disgusting.

Quote from: Zalman on September 14, 2022, 03:50:43 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 14, 2022, 01:56:44 PM
Okay, here's the original version for comparison

For those of us who don't want to do the same work you already did, can you paste just the excised part? Thanks!


EDIT: Thanks Effete

No problem. For the record, I pulled it from the linked article a few posts up. The two blurbs that BoxCrayon posted aren't just similar... they are EXACTLY the same. The removed paragraph does not appear in either one (I realized this only after reading both, twice).

Quote from: Hixanthrope on September 14, 2022, 12:14:36 PM
real-world cultures are not playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.

Does this include say... fantasy versions of medieval britain, the basis for the vast majority of official and unofficial D&D campaigns?
:o

Quote from: rusty shackleford on September 14, 2022, 04:19:09 PM
Does this include say... fantasy versions of medieval britain, the basis for the vast majority of official and unofficial D&D campaigns?
:o

Nope, didn't you get the memo?  People of European descent don't get to complain when everyone else scrambles to appropriate and pervert the European basis on which everything has at the foundation in D&D.

Quote from: Palleon on September 14, 2022, 04:21:42 PM

Quote from: rusty shackleford on September 14, 2022, 04:19:09 PM
Does this include say... fantasy versions of medieval britain, the basis for the vast majority of official and unofficial D&D campaigns?
:o

Nope, didn't you get the memo?  People of European descent don't get to complain when everyone else scrambles to appropriate and pervert the European basis on which everything has at the foundation in D&D.

Exactly. No samurai character for you (unless you have a documented minimum quanta of Japanese blood). In other news, there's yet another anime just released that further bastardizes an already bastardized version of D&D. Makes perfect sense, no?

Quote from: Palleon on September 14, 2022, 01:43:44 PM
Here's the source of the hub bub:
https://whatdoiknowjr.com/2022/09/10/spring-break-and-kobold-press/

In summary woke critic needs to tear down ex-TSR employee's work from 12 years ago that was republished in a 2nd edition of an old book because the current Kickstarter has the audacity to include bio-essentialism in ability scores.

Had the author, but not the essay.

Quote from: rusty shackleford on September 14, 2022, 04:19:09 PM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on September 14, 2022, 12:14:36 PM
real-world cultures are not playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.

Does this include say... fantasy versions of medieval britain, the basis for the vast majority of official and unofficial D&D campaigns?
:o

Sounds like SOMEONE here needs to check their privilege.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 14, 2022, 01:50:36 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 14, 2022, 01:36:48 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 14, 2022, 01:34:09 PM
I have no idea what the fuck is actually going on. What was the original essay and what is the revised version for comparison?

I'm looking at my copy to figure that out now.

My guesses are it is one of the following:

How Real is Your World? On History and Setting by Wolfgang Baur
Bringing History to Life by Keith Baker

I can't say I'm surprised. I saw volume 3 at the FLGS and looking through it thought it would make Monte Cook Games blush while being asked out by Evil Hat.

Yeah, those essays are completely absent from the digital copy I just purchased to check. How many essays are there supposed to be? My copy has 40

Ah, I had the wrong book...I was looking at World Building Volume I, not Game Design.  Kobold has both.

Appears it was the Baur book in the latter.

Quote from: Palleon on September 14, 2022, 04:21:42 PM
Nope, didn't you get the memo?  People of European descent don't get to complain when everyone else scrambles to appropriate and pervert the European basis on which everything has at the foundation in D&D.

IDK. The Irish seem to make a compelling case against Amazon's Rings of Sewer.
The producer of the show said they wanted it to reflect the real world, then they give the filthy, starving hobbits terrible stage-Irish accents. One can only presume that's how they see the "real world" Irish.

Quote from: rusty shackleford on September 14, 2022, 04:19:09 PM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on September 14, 2022, 12:14:36 PM
real-world cultures are not playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.

Does this include say... fantasy versions of medieval britain, the basis for the vast majority of official and unofficial D&D campaigns?
:o

No...as we're repeatedly told, white people have no culture (mostly by white leftists at that) and thus they are not a real-world culture.

D&D, as a proxy for the hobby, has been a fad 3 times...the first arguably ended with BADD as part of a moral panic (Satanism), the second (3x) just ran its course, and now the third seems to be likely to end with a mix of moral panic (Social Justic) and corporatism. Hopefully like the mid-80s we'll keep a lot of people who got beyond D&D and have some who will come back in 15 years (which seemed to happen a lot with D&D 3).

Oddly, despite similar politics, I don't see the SJWs sticking like a lot of the WW types did when it competed somewhat successfully for "face of the hobby" status.

Me, I'm just finding people who want to play games.

It's interesting that everyone felt really bad at the early, Euro-centric nature of places like Greyhawk.  So the publishers worked hard to create things like the Forgotten Realms, Golarion, the Kingdoms of Kalamar, to increase diversity.

But now THAT'S wrong, too.  Because in our earlier efforts at inclusivity we tried to make sure there were real-world settings because "how can you expect me to play a game if everyone can't see myself in it?!?"

The goalposts will never stop moving.  Best to just ignore the lunacy and do your thing.

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on September 14, 2022, 04:48:25 PM
The goalposts will never stop moving.  Best to just ignore the lunacy and do your thing.

This ^^^

Then watch them eat their own.

Sorry, I had a copy paste error or something.

In any case, KP didn't even read the whole blog post. The author said the entire essay was mediocre (which I agree with for different reasons than racism), but KP thought the complaint could be addressed by removing one paragraph. That's just laziness and idiocy. Then they lied by claiming the essay was "revised". No it wasn't.

The woke complaint is frustrating enough. KP's response is just insulting.

Quote from: Effete on September 14, 2022, 05:02:48 PM
Then watch them eat their own.

Their circular firing squad is my favorite entertainment. 

It's really the major reason I'm on Twitter.  They jump all over each other trying to establish themselves as the alpha SJW (read:  completely beta).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 14, 2022, 02:32:31 PM
Honestly, the essay is kinda useless before and after the revision. Especially the "Strange but Familiar" section. Obviously fantasy Araby is a stock fantasy counterpart and not an actual depiction of the Middle East, but that section is needlessly dismissive of worldbuilding based on research and doesn't present useful advice. And the bit about Araby just being a momentary theme park attraction in an otherwise pseudo European campaign really is offensive to any GM who wants to set their whole campaign there or any designer who spends effort on making whole books about it.

I do think it's making a mountain out of a molehill and cutting out the paragraph doesn't accomplish anything. It needs to be completely rewritten to be actually useful to GMs and not insulting to people who like Arabian settings

I would agree that it's largely useless, and kind of trivializes the idea of making a big chunk of your campaign set in that region or have a MENA "flavor".

Again, though SJGames is now on "the list", [EDIT]their "Arabian Nights" is a good resource--and even the condensed/modified section in "Banestorm" is good.  Although the presentation doesn't seem too "woke" to me, it's respectful, but recognizing the "flavor" of an "Arabian/Persian Nights" campaign--as more than a "Arab Disneyland".

That said, primary source material is always better than a gamified version...with the big caveat of "how can I fit this into my game system?"

This shit is so exhausting and is truly born of an utter lack of true problems & hardship for your average SJW neckbeard and blue haired problem glasses hamplanet feminist. When you have nothing to do, have never had any challenges, you will self-create these 'obstacles' to overcome. Tilting at windmills and all that, innit?

My wife happens to be one of these 'exotic MENA' type people and I don't mean like her grandparents came to the West 2 generations ago. More like, fresh off the boat (Princess of Persia), didn't speak much English in 2009. She is mystified by this entire thing as it has no real precedent in history.

Between the combination of the utter self-loathing and hatred of your own culture and this incredible virtue signaling for the "Other" but where you mainly get everything wrong it just baffles her entirely. I have to share her observation. As a somewhat well read student of history, I also cannot recall a society more intent on committing cultural seppuku than the modern West.

She also finds it incredibly annoying that 1) They try so hard to speak for her or 'save' her while tripping over their own feet so awkwardly in the attempt and 2) Get offended 'for' her when the stuff they are screeching about she, and most other people like her, give approximately two fucks about.

I long ago disengaged with even attempting to communicate with these people it is just unfortunate that they are legion and have accumulated such wide institutional power.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 14, 2022, 05:58:17 PM
Sorry, I had a copy paste error or something.

Yeah, not a problem. I thought it was a copy/paste issue when all the page numbers and formatting artifacts were in the same spots. :)

QuoteIn any case, KP didn't even read the whole blog post. The author said the entire essay was mediocre (which I agree with for different reasons than racism), but KP thought the complaint could be addressed by removing one paragraph. That's just laziness and idiocy. Then they lied by claiming the essay was "revised". No it wasn't.

The woke complaint is frustrating enough. KP's response is just insulting.

Yep. It's why you never capitulate to the woke mob. As Brooding Paladin said (and many of us already know), there is no winning against them. There will always be SOMETHING they will find outrage for. Just ignore them if you don't want to mock them.

KP's "apology" will be seen as a weakness to exploit, not as a company trying to "right a wrong." They've already admitted to being "insensitive" so now everything they do (or have done) will be mucked for badwrongthink. Hope they enjoy being a target.

Quote from: Darkwind on September 14, 2022, 07:57:53 PM
This shit is so exhausting and is truly born of an utter lack of true problems & hardship for your average SJW neckbeard and blue haired problem glasses hamplanet feminist. When you have nothing to do, have never had any challenges, you will self-create these 'obstacles' to overcome. Tilting at windmills and all that, innit?

My wife happens to be one of these 'exotic MENA' type people and I don't mean like her grandparents came to the West 2 generations ago. More like, fresh off the boat (Princess of Persia), didn't speak much English in 2009. She is mystified by this entire thing as it has no real precedent in history.

Between the combination of the utter self-loathing and hatred of your own culture and this incredible virtue signaling for the "Other" but where you mainly get everything wrong it just baffles her entirely. I have to share her observation. As a somewhat well read student of history, I also cannot recall a society more intent on committing cultural seppuku than the modern West.

She also finds it incredibly annoying that 1) They try so hard to speak for her or 'save' her while tripping over their own feet so awkwardly in the attempt and 2) Get offended 'for' her when the stuff they are screeching about she, and most other people like her, give approximately two fucks about.

I long ago disengaged with even attempting to communicate with these people it is just unfortunate that they are legion and have accumulated such wide institutional power.

Thank you for this. You said it very succinctly and much better than I would have. I agree with this 100%.

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on September 14, 2022, 04:48:25 PM
It's interesting that everyone felt really bad at the early, Euro-centric nature of places like Greyhawk.  So the publishers worked hard to create things like the Forgotten Realms, Golarion, the Kingdoms of Kalamar, to increase diversity.

But now THAT'S wrong, too.  Because in our earlier efforts at inclusivity we tried to make sure there were real-world settings because "how can you expect me to play a game if everyone can't see myself in it?!?"

The goalposts will never stop moving.  Best to just ignore the lunacy and do your thing.

Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

Quote from: rusty shackleford on September 14, 2022, 04:19:09 PM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on September 14, 2022, 12:14:36 PM
real-world cultures are not playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.

Does this include say... fantasy versions of medieval britain, the basis for the vast majority of official and unofficial D&D campaigns?
:o

Oh its better than that.

All this "Its not a playground!" only applies till THEY want to make a buck off it.

Odds are they are planning some Arabian Knights themed book and are weaponizing this to tear down any competition while painting themselves as oh so virtuous.

Kobold Press has been dodgy since at least 5e's advent with their fake 5e products. So really nothing they do anymore surprises me. And Im a big fan of the Tyranny of Dragons set for 5e.

Quote from: The Spaniard on September 15, 2022, 09:54:10 AM
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

I love the Greyhawk setting and have used it often.  And my campaign happen to be Euro-centric mostly because that's what I know most about and think I can make a fair acquittal with in my gaming.  Which you would think would meet with the SJW mantra of "stay in your lane and don't appropriate other cultures" but since it's predominately white in nature, nah.  That's not allowed either.  Screw them.

But yeah, I meant nothing critical toward Greyhawk and her fans.

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on September 15, 2022, 11:11:33 AM

Quote from: The Spaniard on September 15, 2022, 09:54:10 AM
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

I love the Greyhawk setting and have used it often.  And my campaign happen to be Euro-centric mostly because that's what I know most about and think I can make a fair acquittal with in my gaming.  Which you would think would meet with the SJW mantra of "stay in your lane and don't appropriate other cultures" but since it's predominately white in nature, nah.  That's not allowed either.  Screw them.

But yeah, I meant nothing critical toward Greyhawk and her fans.

Cool, thanks for the clarification!  Makes sense now.

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on September 15, 2022, 11:11:33 AM

Quote from: The Spaniard on September 15, 2022, 09:54:10 AM
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

I love the Greyhawk setting and have used it often.  And my campaign happen to be Euro-centric mostly because that's what I know most about and think I can make a fair acquittal with in my gaming.  Which you would think would meet with the SJW mantra of "stay in your lane and don't appropriate other cultures" but since it's predominately white in nature, nah.  That's not allowed either.  Screw them.

But yeah, I meant nothing critical toward Greyhawk and her fans.

Greetings!

Yes, Brooding Paladin, I understand where you are coming from. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Euro-Centric game campaign. And yeah, Greyhawk is awesome, too!

I have to say, that the whole notion of Greyhawk somehow being "problematic" or racist, or "Euro-Centric" is all kind of BS. If there is or was any kind of "Euro-Centric" focus in the campaign, well, too bad. Tough titty said the kitty when the milk went dry! D&D is a game created by white, European descended Americans. The vast, vast majority of gamers, themselves, are white Americans or Europeans. These are simply absolute facts. It is also an absolute fact that going back to the earliest days of the RPG hobby, gamers have been passionately interested in other cultures, regions, and historical elements. Gamers have also been very open and positive towards accepting and welcoming gamers from other races, ethnicities, and cultures. There have certainly been an increase of participation from non-white gamers, from a variety of cultural backgrounds in the years since the beginning. That too, has been generally quite positive.

I also think it is critical to remember that for the most part, the "critics" and demagogues of all this BS are generally not even minorities, or otherwise non-white or non-European.

The demagogues of the BS and promoters of racism, division, and hatred, are typically other white Americans, or white Europeans.

These people are terrible, and should be opposed and resisted at every opportunity!

From a DM and game design perspective, remembering that most gamers are white--it just isn't an issue for most groups to fully or commonly engage with some foreign, non-Euro-Centric culture. Thanks to the glorious capitalism and "Hu-white supremacistsss" systems of statistics and marketing analysis, we also know, for *decades* now, that for the most part, non-Euro-Centric campaign worlds are a commercial failure. Despite considerable Asian influences in general through the media and mediums, Chinese and Japanese game worlds are not terribly popular. Forget fantasy Africa. Nyambe was, while artistically and creatively beautiful--largely a failure. Oriental Adventures and Al Qadim? Yes, also commercial failures. Oh, and yes, mot all of these culturally diverse campaign worlds and products--supplements, monster books, and soon--were also created, written, and marketed by white people. TALISLANTA--probably my favorite cult classic favourite campaign world--was entirely non-white, non-European, and it too, was a commercial failure. For a refresher, TALISLANTA was full of crayon coloured races, peoples, and creatures--that were not even human at all.

The market of RPG gamers have consistently demonstrated that the main, dominating preference is for Euro-Centric, Tolkienesque game worlds.

Armed with all of those facts, it isn't surprising that much of the early Greyhawk adventure and literature seemed to be catering to more Euro-Centric preferences. However, as any long-time Greyhawk fan or DM knows--Greyhawk has many races, cultures and regions that are not Euro-Centric. Even as a DM developing your own game world, there is likely many regions and cultures that are non-Eurocentric. In running a particular campaign, it is just a process and product of what region or culture you are setting the campaign in, which determines the focus. Greyhawk, or many other campaign worlds, can be Eurocentric or as non Eurocentric as a person could want, depending on where they want to focus a particular campaign.

Ahh, well. These people, the SJW's, the Wokists, are insane. They all love Marxism, nihilism, and chaos. They are Leftist degenerates. It is important that we gatekeep our hobby, and curb stomp these people out of our hobby. Don't invite them to your games, or participate in any meaningful way with Leftist Libtards. They are like human rodents, constantly wanting to eat, devour, and destroy.

I've rambled on enough for now. These Leftist game critics drive me crazy, too! ;D Kobold Press bends the knee indeed! Sad, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on September 15, 2022, 12:51:58 PM

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on September 15, 2022, 11:11:33 AM

Quote from: The Spaniard on September 15, 2022, 09:54:10 AM
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

I love the Greyhawk setting and have used it often.  And my campaign happen to be Euro-centric mostly because that's what I know most about and think I can make a fair acquittal with in my gaming.  Which you would think would meet with the SJW mantra of "stay in your lane and don't appropriate other cultures" but since it's predominately white in nature, nah.  That's not allowed either.  Screw them.

But yeah, I meant nothing critical toward Greyhawk and her fans.

Greetings!

Yes, Brooding Paladin, I understand where you are coming from. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Euro-Centric game campaign. And yeah, Greyhawk is awesome, too!

I have to say, that the whole notion of Greyhawk somehow being "problematic" or racist, or "Euro-Centric" is all kind of BS. If there is or was any kind of "Euro-Centric" focus in the campaign, well, too bad. Tough titty said the kitty when the milk went dry! D&D is a game created by white, European descended Americans. The vast, vast majority of gamers, themselves, are white Americans or Europeans. These are simply absolute facts. It is also an absolute fact that going back to the earliest days of the RPG hobby, gamers have been passionately interested in other cultures, regions, and historical elements. Gamers have also been very open and positive towards accepting and welcoming gamers from other races, ethnicities, and cultures. There have certainly been an increase of participation from non-white gamers, from a variety of cultural backgrounds in the years since the beginning. That too, has been generally quite positive.

I also think it is critical to remember that for the most part, the "critics" and demagogues of all this BS are generally not even minorities, or otherwise non-white or non-European.

The demagogues of the BS and promoters of racism, division, and hatred, are typically other white Americans, or white Europeans.

These people are terrible, and should be opposed and resisted at every opportunity!

From a DM and game design perspective, remembering that most gamers are white--it just isn't an issue for most groups to fully or commonly engage with some foreign, non-Euro-Centric culture. Thanks to the glorious capitalism and "Hu-white supremacistsss" systems of statistics and marketing analysis, we also know, for *decades* now, that for the most part, non-Euro-Centric campaign worlds are a commercial failure. Despite considerable Asian influences in general through the media and mediums, Chinese and Japanese game worlds are not terribly popular. Forget fantasy Africa. Nyambe was, while artistically and creatively beautiful--largely a failure. Oriental Adventures and Al Qadim? Yes, also commercial failures. Oh, and yes, mot all of these culturally diverse campaign worlds and products--supplements, monster books, and soon--were also created, written, and marketed by white people. TALISLANTA--probably my favorite cult classic favourite campaign world--was entirely non-white, non-European, and it too, was a commercial failure. For a refresher, TALISLANTA was full of crayon coloured races, peoples, and creatures--that were not even human at all.

The market of RPG gamers have consistently demonstrated that the main, dominating preference is for Euro-Centric, Tolkienesque game worlds.

Armed with all of those facts, it isn't surprising that much of the early Greyhawk adventure and literature seemed to be catering to more Euro-Centric preferences. However, as any long-time Greyhawk fan or DM knows--Greyhawk has many races, cultures and regions that are not Euro-Centric. Even as a DM developing your own game world, there is likely many regions and cultures that are non-Eurocentric. In running a particular campaign, it is just a process and product of what region or culture you are setting the campaign in, which determines the focus. Greyhawk, or many other campaign worlds, can be Eurocentric or as non Eurocentric as a person could want, depending on where they want to focus a particular campaign.

Ahh, well. These people, the SJW's, the Wokists, are insane. They all love Marxism, nihilism, and chaos. They are Leftist degenerates. It is important that we gatekeep our hobby, and curb stomp these people out of our hobby. Don't invite them to your games, or participate in any meaningful way with Leftist Libtards. They are like human rodents, constantly wanting to eat, devour, and destroy.

I've rambled on enough for now. These Leftist game critics drive me crazy, too! ;D Kobold Press bends the knee indeed! Sad, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Couldn't agree more Shark

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on September 15, 2022, 11:11:33 AM

Quote from: The Spaniard on September 15, 2022, 09:54:10 AM
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

Should have written it "eVeRyOnE" ;)

Exactly.  Lesson learned!   ;D

Quote from: The Spaniard on September 15, 2022, 05:45:21 PM

Quote from: SHARK on September 15, 2022, 12:51:58 PM

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on September 15, 2022, 11:11:33 AM

Quote from: The Spaniard on September 15, 2022, 09:54:10 AM
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

I love the Greyhawk setting and have used it often.  And my campaign happen to be Euro-centric mostly because that's what I know most about and think I can make a fair acquittal with in my gaming.  Which you would think would meet with the SJW mantra of "stay in your lane and don't appropriate other cultures" but since it's predominately white in nature, nah.  That's not allowed either.  Screw them.

But yeah, I meant nothing critical toward Greyhawk and her fans.

Greetings!

Yes, Brooding Paladin, I understand where you are coming from. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Euro-Centric game campaign. And yeah, Greyhawk is awesome, too!

I have to say, that the whole notion of Greyhawk somehow being "problematic" or racist, or "Euro-Centric" is all kind of BS. If there is or was any kind of "Euro-Centric" focus in the campaign, well, too bad. Tough titty said the kitty when the milk went dry! D&D is a game created by white, European descended Americans. The vast, vast majority of gamers, themselves, are white Americans or Europeans. These are simply absolute facts. It is also an absolute fact that going back to the earliest days of the RPG hobby, gamers have been passionately interested in other cultures, regions, and historical elements. Gamers have also been very open and positive towards accepting and welcoming gamers from other races, ethnicities, and cultures. There have certainly been an increase of participation from non-white gamers, from a variety of cultural backgrounds in the years since the beginning. That too, has been generally quite positive.

I also think it is critical to remember that for the most part, the "critics" and demagogues of all this BS are generally not even minorities, or otherwise non-white or non-European.

The demagogues of the BS and promoters of racism, division, and hatred, are typically other white Americans, or white Europeans.

These people are terrible, and should be opposed and resisted at every opportunity!

From a DM and game design perspective, remembering that most gamers are white--it just isn't an issue for most groups to fully or commonly engage with some foreign, non-Euro-Centric culture. Thanks to the glorious capitalism and "Hu-white supremacistsss" systems of statistics and marketing analysis, we also know, for *decades* now, that for the most part, non-Euro-Centric campaign worlds are a commercial failure. Despite considerable Asian influences in general through the media and mediums, Chinese and Japanese game worlds are not terribly popular. Forget fantasy Africa. Nyambe was, while artistically and creatively beautiful--largely a failure. Oriental Adventures and Al Qadim? Yes, also commercial failures. Oh, and yes, mot all of these culturally diverse campaign worlds and products--supplements, monster books, and soon--were also created, written, and marketed by white people. TALISLANTA--probably my favorite cult classic favourite campaign world--was entirely non-white, non-European, and it too, was a commercial failure. For a refresher, TALISLANTA was full of crayon coloured races, peoples, and creatures--that were not even human at all.

The market of RPG gamers have consistently demonstrated that the main, dominating preference is for Euro-Centric, Tolkienesque game worlds.

Armed with all of those facts, it isn't surprising that much of the early Greyhawk adventure and literature seemed to be catering to more Euro-Centric preferences. However, as any long-time Greyhawk fan or DM knows--Greyhawk has many races, cultures and regions that are not Euro-Centric. Even as a DM developing your own game world, there is likely many regions and cultures that are non-Eurocentric. In running a particular campaign, it is just a process and product of what region or culture you are setting the campaign in, which determines the focus. Greyhawk, or many other campaign worlds, can be Eurocentric or as non Eurocentric as a person could want, depending on where they want to focus a particular campaign.

Ahh, well. These people, the SJW's, the Wokists, are insane. They all love Marxism, nihilism, and chaos. They are Leftist degenerates. It is important that we gatekeep our hobby, and curb stomp these people out of our hobby. Don't invite them to your games, or participate in any meaningful way with Leftist Libtards. They are like human rodents, constantly wanting to eat, devour, and destroy.

I've rambled on enough for now. These Leftist game critics drive me crazy, too! ;D Kobold Press bends the knee indeed! Sad, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Couldn't agree more Shark

Greetings!

Thank you, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'm honestly tired of all this generic Eurofantasy pseudo-Anglo-Saxon schlock. It's oversaturated. I want fantasy that is, well, ethnic. Celtic, Teutonic, Korean, Japanese, Han Chinese, Semitic, West African, Indian, etc.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2022, 06:42:29 PM
I'm honestly tired of all this generic Eurofantasy pseudo-Anglo-Saxon schlock. It's oversaturated. I want fantasy that is, well, ethnic. Celtic, Teutonic, Korean, Japanese, Han Chinese, Semitic, West African, Indian, etc.

Don't you know how the game is played?
Any eurofantasy must be watered-down to be "inclusive and diverse" while anything else would be immediately pegged as "insensitive and racist."

All joking aside, the "Tolkien-esque" vision of fantasy gaming has been stale for a long time. It's one of the major reasons I swore off D&D and anything with a hint of "elves and dwarves" for over a decade and a half.

Quote from: Effete on September 19, 2022, 11:32:29 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2022, 06:42:29 PM
I'm honestly tired of all this generic Eurofantasy pseudo-Anglo-Saxon schlock. It's oversaturated. I want fantasy that is, well, ethnic. Celtic, Teutonic, Korean, Japanese, Han Chinese, Semitic, West African, Indian, etc.

Don't you know how the game is played?
Any eurofantasy must be watered-down to be "inclusive and diverse" while anything else would be immediately pegged as "insensitive and racist."

All joking aside, the "Tolkien-esque" vision of fantasy gaming has been stale for a long time. It's one of the major reasons I swore off D&D and anything with a hint of "elves and dwarves" for over a decade and a half.

I can relate to the burnout.  I think there are many gamers who love multiple genres for that reason.

The *real* shame is that I do understand the Euro-centric fatigue in fantasy and the desire for other flavors - whether it's Asian or Middle-eastern established fantasy tropes remain as viable options...

The *problem* is the SJW morons have so demonized any and all forms of playing with cultural analogs outside of the European veneer, and have done so with such rabidness, that any attempts to do so are now suspect by us as consumers.

It's a hurdle to consider as a developer - because people get scared of being called racists by the actual racists, but as this is a cottage industry, it starts to look like you *might* just be burning money in order to get a kick in the balls by the usual suspects. (note - I say it starts to appear - this doesn't mean it's a reality).

Lastly - the only offerings apparently free of this reality that are high-production affairs (I'm sure I'm probably wrong about this somewhere so I'm speaking generally) are the shit being served up by SJW's themselves.

There is the added fact that it's very real that while some/many people feel a little Euro-centric fatigue, that the vast majority of players are *not* tired of Euro-centric fantasy. Much more the fact that "Euro-centric" fantasy typically means DnD fantasy which is not really fair to the entirety of the real European cultures that are largely ignored in the DnD Fantasy milieu.

There are some fantastic Euro-inspired settings out there that *need* more GM's pushing them. Symbaroum, The Witcher, are among two that come to mind. I believe with all my heart there is room for fun non-Euro content in DnD... but likely not outside the OSR, with the SJW's controlling the DnD brand.

But I say regardless of what the SJW zombie-hordes out there want, we should all be playing/designing/publishing/homebrewing whatever the fuck we want for those that want to have fun. I *dislike* the fact I'm so suspect of non-Euro themed settings nowadays because of the political lens everyone uses to inform their designs (whether on purpose or not in order to avoid the slings and arrows). We simply have to continue to find those souls willing to create high-quality games and support the shit out of them.

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
The *problem* is the SJW morons have so demonized any and all forms of playing with cultural analogs outside of the European veneer, and have done so with such rabidness, that any attempts to do so are now suspect by us as consumers.

And this is the root problem I think that has Kobold Press's Shining East part of the Midgard setting indefinitely delayed...

Witcher is actually a D&D campaign setting, not an ethnic setting. E.g. it has Dao genies taken directly from D&D. I don't like it for that reason and I wish actual Slavic fantasy got even a fraction of that recognition.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 05:23:42 PM
Witcher is actually a D&D campaign setting, not an ethnic setting. E.g. it has Dao genies taken directly from D&D. I don't like it for that reason and I wish actual Slavic fantasy got even a fraction of that recognition.

It's pretty much from the books/game. Daos are taken from Middle-eastern folktails and myths, which the Poles had lots of "contact" (and by that I mean violent wars) with during the middle-ages. I'm not professing that Daos aren't some outlier - I'm just presuming they are. And hey why not?

That said, today's DnD doesn't really resemble the Witcher because there is no setting specific  to DnD that isn't polluted by assumption of things never intended to be in it or added to it later. The cohesion of the kitchen-sink settings of DnD past would never operate as they appeared under the assumptions of today's 5e.

The Witcher setting is very specific internally, with very specific dribbles of elements taken from Polish(sic) culture and fantasied up. If you play DnD like that - with that level of tone - (great!!! I think everyone should), I'd say you, me and a those that do, are extreme outliers to the average 5e audience.

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 05:53:13 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 05:23:42 PM
Witcher is actually a D&D campaign setting, not an ethnic setting. E.g. it has Dao genies taken directly from D&D. I don't like it for that reason and I wish actual Slavic fantasy got even a fraction of that recognition.

It's pretty much from the books/game. Daos are taken from Middle-eastern folktails and myths, which the Poles had lots of "contact" (and by that I mean violent wars) with during the middle-ages. I'm not professing that Daos aren't some outlier - I'm just presuming they are. And hey why not?

That said, today's DnD doesn't really resemble the Witcher because there is no setting specific  to DnD that isn't polluted by assumption of things never intended to be in it or added to it later. The cohesion of the kitchen-sink settings of DnD past would never operate as they appeared under the assumptions of today's 5e.

The Witcher setting is very specific internally, with very specific dribbles of elements taken from Polish(sic) culture and fantasied up. If you play DnD like that - with that level of tone - (great!!! I think everyone should), I'd say you, me and a those that do, are extreme outliers to the average 5e audience.

What I mean is that it literally reads like it was taken from the notes for the author's personal D&D campaign. Many of the monsters and conventions are taken straight from D&D.

https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Genie

The author outright copies D&D genie names: djinn, marid, ifrit, dao. D&D invented that scheme, without basis in folklore. That's pretty unambiguous evidence it's based on his notes for his D&D campaign.

Took a look at the blog post that supposedly started this round of nonsense.

QuoteSomeday, in some glorious future, white people won't say stupid things that show how oblivious they are to the things that people of color have had to deal with, every day, ever since someone decided to define some people as white to begin with. That day is not today.

First fucking paragraph. Lol, lmao. We don't have to parody these people, they're incapable of not being living caricatures. It just reads like something your creepy dipshit 28 year old assistant professor of art history would say while peacocking his virtue for the 19 year old art hoes in his class.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 06:06:34 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 05:53:13 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 05:23:42 PM
Witcher is actually a D&D campaign setting, not an ethnic setting. E.g. it has Dao genies taken directly from D&D. I don't like it for that reason and I wish actual Slavic fantasy got even a fraction of that recognition.

It's pretty much from the books/game. Daos are taken from Middle-eastern folktails and myths, which the Poles had lots of "contact" (and by that I mean violent wars) with during the middle-ages. I'm not professing that Daos aren't some outlier - I'm just presuming they are. And hey why not?

That said, today's DnD doesn't really resemble the Witcher because there is no setting specific  to DnD that isn't polluted by assumption of things never intended to be in it or added to it later. The cohesion of the kitchen-sink settings of DnD past would never operate as they appeared under the assumptions of today's 5e.

The Witcher setting is very specific internally, with very specific dribbles of elements taken from Polish(sic) culture and fantasied up. If you play DnD like that - with that level of tone - (great!!! I think everyone should), I'd say you, me and a those that do, are extreme outliers to the average 5e audience.

What I mean is that it literally reads like it was taken from the notes for the author's personal D&D campaign. Many of the monsters and conventions are taken straight from D&D.

https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Genie

The author outright copies D&D genie names: djinn, marid, ifrit, dao. D&D invented that scheme, without basis in folklore. That's pretty unambiguous evidence it's based on his notes for his D&D campaign.

Wait, what?  Marid, Djinn, and Efreet are in the Quran (and in Arabic lore before that).  And Dao might be based on Dushara, a Nabatean god.  But yeah, D&D mixed up a lot of stuff into a hodgepodge, so maybe the Witcher was more influenced by D&D than the original sources.

Quote from: Osman Gazi on September 20, 2022, 08:48:37 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 06:06:34 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 05:53:13 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 05:23:42 PM
Witcher is actually a D&D campaign setting, not an ethnic setting. E.g. it has Dao genies taken directly from D&D. I don't like it for that reason and I wish actual Slavic fantasy got even a fraction of that recognition.

It's pretty much from the books/game. Daos are taken from Middle-eastern folktails and myths, which the Poles had lots of "contact" (and by that I mean violent wars) with during the middle-ages. I'm not professing that Daos aren't some outlier - I'm just presuming they are. And hey why not?

That said, today's DnD doesn't really resemble the Witcher because there is no setting specific  to DnD that isn't polluted by assumption of things never intended to be in it or added to it later. The cohesion of the kitchen-sink settings of DnD past would never operate as they appeared under the assumptions of today's 5e.

The Witcher setting is very specific internally, with very specific dribbles of elements taken from Polish(sic) culture and fantasied up. If you play DnD like that - with that level of tone - (great!!! I think everyone should), I'd say you, me and a those that do, are extreme outliers to the average 5e audience.

What I mean is that it literally reads like it was taken from the notes for the author's personal D&D campaign. Many of the monsters and conventions are taken straight from D&D.

https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Genie

The author outright copies D&D genie names: djinn, marid, ifrit, dao. D&D invented that scheme, without basis in folklore. That's pretty unambiguous evidence it's based on his notes for his D&D campaign.

Wait, what?  Marid, Djinn, and Efreet are in the Quran (and in Arabic lore before that).  And Dao might be based on Dushara, a Nabatean god.  But yeah, D&D mixed up a lot of stuff into a hodgepodge, so maybe the Witcher was more influenced by D&D than the original sources.

To clarify: the words marid (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marid), djinn (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/djinn), and ifrit (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ifrit#English) do come from Arabic. But they don't have specific elemental associations, as all djinn are made of smokeless fire. D&D invented those elemental associations without basis in folklore. (There is some Tunisian folklore about leriah of the air, baharia of the sea and siadna of the land, but D&D isn't based on that or they would have used those words instead.) D&D also invents a nonsensical and insanely anal-retentive distinction between genie, djinn, and jann... which are just different spellings of the same word (I know genie is technically a French translation of Arabic djinn, but it's still the same word and I'm not splitting hairs). Show the bestiary to a native Arab speaker and they would be confused why the same word is used for three completely different contexts that are easily confused.

Anyway, my point is that Witcher's worldbuilding is a D&D campaign with some twists (like the setting being the aftermath of a planar conjunction flooding the planet with monsters and multiple different intelligent races to explain why the world even uses D&D conventions) and some Polish folklore tacked on. While some of the concepts have a basis in Polish folklore or were invented mostly wholesale by the author, most of them seem to be drawn from D&D tropes. Many of the monsters, like chromatic dragons (https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon), are copied more or less verbatim from D&D. The Wizard's Guild is pretty obviously based on how D&D presents wizards as organized schools who manipulate global politics from behind the scenes. I don't consider it an authentic representation of Slavic fantasy and I'm annoyed that it has displaced authentic Slavic fantasy in popular culture.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 21, 2022, 09:32:38 AM

Quote from: Osman Gazi on September 20, 2022, 08:48:37 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 06:06:34 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 05:53:13 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 05:23:42 PM
Witcher is actually a D&D campaign setting, not an ethnic setting. E.g. it has Dao genies taken directly from D&D. I don't like it for that reason and I wish actual Slavic fantasy got even a fraction of that recognition.

It's pretty much from the books/game. Daos are taken from Middle-eastern folktails and myths, which the Poles had lots of "contact" (and by that I mean violent wars) with during the middle-ages. I'm not professing that Daos aren't some outlier - I'm just presuming they are. And hey why not?

That said, today's DnD doesn't really resemble the Witcher because there is no setting specific  to DnD that isn't polluted by assumption of things never intended to be in it or added to it later. The cohesion of the kitchen-sink settings of DnD past would never operate as they appeared under the assumptions of today's 5e.

The Witcher setting is very specific internally, with very specific dribbles of elements taken from Polish(sic) culture and fantasied up. If you play DnD like that - with that level of tone - (great!!! I think everyone should), I'd say you, me and a those that do, are extreme outliers to the average 5e audience.

What I mean is that it literally reads like it was taken from the notes for the author's personal D&D campaign. Many of the monsters and conventions are taken straight from D&D.

https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Genie

The author outright copies D&D genie names: djinn, marid, ifrit, dao. D&D invented that scheme, without basis in folklore. That's pretty unambiguous evidence it's based on his notes for his D&D campaign.

Wait, what?  Marid, Djinn, and Efreet are in the Quran (and in Arabic lore before that).  And Dao might be based on Dushara, a Nabatean god.  But yeah, D&D mixed up a lot of stuff into a hodgepodge, so maybe the Witcher was more influenced by D&D than the original sources.

To clarify: the words marid (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marid), djinn (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/djinn), and ifrit (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ifrit#English) do come from Arabic. But they don't have specific elemental associations, as all djinn are made of smokeless fire. D&D invented those elemental associations without basis in folklore. (There is some Tunisian folklore about leriah of the air, baharia of the sea and siadna of the land, but D&D isn't based on that or they would have used those words instead.) D&D also invents a nonsensical and insanely anal-retentive distinction between genie, djinn, and jann... which are just different spellings of the same word (I know genie is technically a French translation of Arabic djinn, but it's still the same word and I'm not splitting hairs). Show the bestiary to a native Arab speaker and they would be confused why the same word is used for three completely different contexts that are easily confused.

Anyway, my point is that Witcher's worldbuilding is a D&D campaign with some twists (like the setting being the aftermath of a planar conjunction flooding the planet with monsters and multiple different intelligent races to explain why the world even uses D&D conventions) and some Polish folklore tacked on. While some of the concepts have a basis in Polish folklore or were invented mostly wholesale by the author, most of them seem to be drawn from D&D tropes. Many of the monsters, like chromatic dragons (https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon), are copied more or less verbatim from D&D. The Wizard's Guild is pretty obviously based on how D&D presents wizards as organized schools who manipulate global politics from behind the scenes. I don't consider it an authentic representation of Slavic fantasy and I'm annoyed that it has displaced authentic Slavic fantasy in popular culture.

Ok, that clarifies it.  Yup, the Djinn are all made from smokeless fire (and Angels made from light)...no D&D-esque distinction of various "elements" (and the Djinn are not wholly good or evil--and it was ironic reading in the 1st ed AD&D MM that they were considered "Chaotic Good", though many of them are evil--especially the most famous one, Iblis/Shaytan).  D&D (or Disney, for that matter) is many people's first contact with folklore and mythology, and with it's incredibly mixed-up amalgamation of various cultures and religions, it leads to a heck of a lot of confusion.  (Just like someone trying to learn history from Hollywood or Bollywood movies).

And yeah, more authentic Slavic folklore would have been cool.

ALL of those things - Marid, Dao etc. predate Islam. They're regional folklore. Which is an aside - since DnD has co-opted myths and monsters from everywhere. I mean people laugh when I tell them the Penanggalan is a Filipino vampire my uncles used to tell ghost stories to us about when I was growing up - and DnD pretty much did a great job with it in Fiend Folio (the original!). But I get your meaning. I'm just saying by that standard - everyone is ripping off DnD. I think that's a bit light of a standard, but okay.

The point stands that the Witcher game has DnD influences... well my question is where today is DnD being played as published, in terms of setting rigor where the assumptions of the Witcher work, in DnD? And how much content is being produced as such? Unless you do a lot of curtailing of a whole lot of 5e mechanics, you're not likely not playing DnD as it's *normally* engaged today.

The Witcher setting of course is influenced by DnD *in general*. You could draw that line to literally any fantasy RPG if you want to squint. But the games don't play the same. They don't feel the same for thematic and mechanical reasons.

Yeah it bums me out RTS crew pantomimes woke bullshit in their private lives... but these days it's almost the norm for such virtue signaling. I don't find that their games themselves have much woke bullshit in them that isn't contextual (Cyberpunk for example). Thankfully.

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
ALL of those things - Marid, Dao etc. predate Islam. They're regional folklore. Which is an aside - since DnD has co-opted myths and monsters from everywhere. I mean people laugh when I tell them the Penanggalan is a Filipino vampire my uncles used to tell ghost stories to us about when I was growing up - and DnD pretty much did a great job with it in Fiend Folio (the original!). But I get your meaning. I'm just saying by that standard - everyone is ripping off DnD. I think that's a bit light of a standard, but okay.

The point stands that the Witcher game has DnD influences... well my question is where today is DnD being played as published, in terms of setting rigor where the assumptions of the Witcher work, in DnD? And how much content is being produced as such? Unless you do a lot of curtailing of a whole lot of 5e mechanics, you're not likely not playing DnD as it's *normally* engaged today.

The Witcher setting of course is influenced by DnD *in general*. You could draw that line to literally any fantasy RPG if you want to squint. But the games don't play the same. They don't feel the same for thematic and mechanical reasons.

It's not a light standard. There's a clear difference between drawing upon the same public domain sources that D&D did and drawing on conventions invented specifically by D&D. I know this because I researched it. Those Arabic words have completely different meanings in Arabic folklore compared to how D&D contorts them into something unrecognizable.

The word marid just means "ill" in Arabic. Marid are not water genies in actual folklore, that was invented by D&D. The Witcher uses D&D marid, which (along with other things) is very obvious evidence that Witcher is based specifically on D&D rather than the public domain sources that influenced D&D. The wiki page for marid recounts the folklore and there is nothing about water until the section on fantasy roleplaying games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marid I assume that "marid" was chosen for water genies based on very loose sound similarity to the word mermaid, as the prefix mer- has water connotations in English.

And dao? They're not in any folklore. I checked. Dao is just the Chinese word for "way." This is a monster invented by D&D to fill a quota. You could maybe argue it comes from Dushara of Petra, but there's no plausible way you could get the word "dao" from "Dushara" and Dushara's not an earth genie to begin with. I'm not the first person to ask this, dao genies literally didn't exist as a concept prior to D&D: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/c7hxff/what_is_the_mythological_inspirationetymology/

Sapkowski obviously played or at least read D&D books in the 90s when rpgs started being translated into Polish (I assume, but the timeframe isn't clear), and used those as a foundation when worldbuilding his own setting. There are way too many similarities between conventions that were invented by D&D and didn't exist before for it to be coincidence or Sapkowski drawing on public domain sources. Sapkowski uses monsters and variations thereof that were specifically invented for D&D and have no prior examples. Dao earth genies? Marid water genies? Chromatic dragons with breath weapons arranged by color? These are all D&D originals. I know because I researched it. You would be absolutely amazed by how much so-called "ancient folklore" was actually invented by D&D in the 70s and 80s.

If you don't believe me, then do the research yourself like I did. Here's a list of D&D monster origins: https://web.archive.org/web/20180810053344/http://rpg.crg4.com/origins.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20160322083505/http://rpg.crg4.com/originsD.html#dragon
https://web.archive.org/web/20180810051244/http://rpg.crg4.com/originsG.html#genie

Gygax explicitly states that he invented the concept of dragons having specific colors with associated breath weapons. That didn't exist in folklore and it didn't exist in fantasy fiction until he invented it. Or at least if it did exist before in any form, it was obscure enough that Gygax wasn't aware of it even after reading library books for inspiration.

You want an example of an author who wasn't influenced by D&D? J.K. Rowling. She got her inspiration by reading reference books at the library, just like Gygax did. That's why she depicts the basilisk as a giant snake rather than an eight-legged lizard, because Plato described it that way.

The Witcher wiki even admits it.
https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Black_dragon
https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/White_dragon

QuoteThe way they are described in Oko Yrrhedesa and Wiedźmin: Gra Wyobraźni, black dragons seem to be inspired by their D&D counterpart.

QuoteThe way they are described in The Bounds of Reason and in Wiedźmin: Gra Wyobraźni, white dragons seem to be inspired by their D&D counterpart.

Again, if you don't believe me then I challenge you to do your own research and provide evidence that refutes my claim. But I don't think you'll succeed. I think this is all clear evidence that Sapkowski specifically read and took inventions from D&D books, or if not D&D directly then another work that used its inventions. I don't believe he got any of these ideas from public domain sources independently of Gygax's influence, the similarities are too great for that to be the case.

What are you debating with me about precisely? I fully admit it's influenced by DnD, you've convinced me! But it's not influenced by 5e the way DnD is currently played.

I actually do not care if Ifrit, Dao, Githyanki, Orcs or whatever were fictional or not. I'm talking about the presentation of the setting as it's played vs. what modern DnD assumes in most games today as presented by WotC and its ecosphere of players.

The Witcher is tighter in its presentation and focus, how its magic works vs. what it allows players to play, and yes there is a bunch of Polish mythological (and fake ass DnD reskins) shit in there to back that tone up. I don't see Samurai, and Tieflings and Aasimar Warlocks, Barbarian Cat Folk Monks and other stupid shit in there for setting demands.

That's all I'm really saying.

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 12:18:28 PM
What are you debating with me about precisely? I fully admit it's influenced by DnD, you've convinced me! But it's not influenced by 5e the way DnD is currently played.

I actually do not care if Ifrit, Dao, Githyanki, Orcs or whatever were fictional or not. I'm talking about the presentation of the setting as it's played vs. what modern DnD assumes in most games today as presented by WotC and its ecosphere of players.

The Witcher is tighter in its presentation and focus, how its magic works vs. what it allows players to play, and yes there is a bunch of Polish mythological (and fake ass DnD reskins) shit in there to back that tone up. I don't see Samurai, and Tieflings and Aasimar Warlocks, Barbarian Cat Folk Monks and other stupid shit in there for setting demands.

That's all I'm really saying.

Ok, sorry, I missed that. Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that he was influenced by 5e. I don't know how I gave that impression, but I apologize. Witcher is obviously influenced by AD&D 1e or thereabouts, since that's what was popular when the short stories and books were being written. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 21, 2022, 12:24:53 PM
Ok, sorry, I missed that. Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that he was influenced by 5e. I don't know how I gave that impression, but I apologize. Witcher is obviously influenced by AD&D 1e or thereabouts, since that's what was popular when the short stories and books were being written. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that.

No worries! We all know DnD is the sky under which all TTRPG's are played. It's ridiculously hard to not find its DNA in *any* game.

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
The *real* shame is that I do understand the Euro-centric fatigue in fantasy and the desire for other flavors - whether it's Asian or Middle-eastern established fantasy tropes remain as viable options...

The *problem* is the SJW morons have so demonized any and all forms of playing with cultural analogs outside of the European veneer, and have done so with such rabidness, that any attempts to do so are now suspect by us as consumers.

It's a hurdle to consider as a developer - because people get scared of being called racists by the actual racists, but as this is a cottage industry, it starts to look like you *might* just be burning money in order to get a kick in the balls by the usual suspects. (note - I say it starts to appear - this doesn't mean it's a reality).

Lastly - the only offerings apparently free of this reality that are high-production affairs (I'm sure I'm probably wrong about this somewhere so I'm speaking generally) are the shit being served up by SJW's themselves.

There is the added fact that it's very real that while some/many people feel a little Euro-centric fatigue, that the vast majority of players are *not* tired of Euro-centric fantasy. Much more the fact that "Euro-centric" fantasy typically means DnD fantasy which is not really fair to the entirety of the real European cultures that are largely ignored in the DnD Fantasy milieu.

There are some fantastic Euro-inspired settings out there that *need* more GM's pushing them. Symbaroum, The Witcher, are among two that come to mind. I believe with all my heart there is room for fun non-Euro content in DnD... but likely not outside the OSR, with the SJW's controlling the DnD brand.

But I say regardless of what the SJW zombie-hordes out there want, we should all be playing/designing/publishing/homebrewing whatever the fuck we want for those that want to have fun. I *dislike* the fact I'm so suspect of non-Euro themed settings nowadays because of the political lens everyone uses to inform their designs (whether on purpose or not in order to avoid the slings and arrows). We simply have to continue to find those souls willing to create high-quality games and support the shit out of them.

This. Pay attention, folks. When you grumble about everything being generic Eurofantasy, this is why.

Nothing less than abject kneeling before the woke altars will protect you if you try and stray off the beaten path. It's another mutation of the 'cultural appropriation' cancer.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2022, 02:42:59 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
The *real* shame is that I do understand the Euro-centric fatigue in fantasy and the desire for other flavors - whether it's Asian or Middle-eastern established fantasy tropes remain as viable options...

The *problem* is the SJW morons have so demonized any and all forms of playing with cultural analogs outside of the European veneer, and have done so with such rabidness, that any attempts to do so are now suspect by us as consumers.

It's a hurdle to consider as a developer - because people get scared of being called racists by the actual racists, but as this is a cottage industry, it starts to look like you *might* just be burning money in order to get a kick in the balls by the usual suspects. (note - I say it starts to appear - this doesn't mean it's a reality).

Lastly - the only offerings apparently free of this reality that are high-production affairs (I'm sure I'm probably wrong about this somewhere so I'm speaking generally) are the shit being served up by SJW's themselves.

There is the added fact that it's very real that while some/many people feel a little Euro-centric fatigue, that the vast majority of players are *not* tired of Euro-centric fantasy. Much more the fact that "Euro-centric" fantasy typically means DnD fantasy which is not really fair to the entirety of the real European cultures that are largely ignored in the DnD Fantasy milieu.

There are some fantastic Euro-inspired settings out there that *need* more GM's pushing them. Symbaroum, The Witcher, are among two that come to mind. I believe with all my heart there is room for fun non-Euro content in DnD... but likely not outside the OSR, with the SJW's controlling the DnD brand.

But I say regardless of what the SJW zombie-hordes out there want, we should all be playing/designing/publishing/homebrewing whatever the fuck we want for those that want to have fun. I *dislike* the fact I'm so suspect of non-Euro themed settings nowadays because of the political lens everyone uses to inform their designs (whether on purpose or not in order to avoid the slings and arrows). We simply have to continue to find those souls willing to create high-quality games and support the shit out of them.

This. Pay attention, folks. When you grumble about everything being generic Eurofantasy, this is why.

Nothing less than abject kneeling before the woke altars will protect you if you try and stray off the beaten path. It's another mutation of the 'cultural appropriation' cancer.

Yeah, when wondering what caused this particular incident, and the cultural zeitgeist that it reflects, this stuff is relevant as hell.

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
[...] I mean people laugh when I tell them the Penanggalan is a Filipino vampire my uncles used to tell ghost stories to us about when I was growing up - and DnD pretty much did a great job with it in Fiend Folio (the original!).

You know, total aside, but...

I just learned about the Penanggalan this summer, which came from delving into Philippine mythology a bit, and then I went deeper. Am reading books by Jocano, Demetrio, and Ramos. I had been looking for new inspiration for a Call of Cthulhu scenario I am writing, and wow, what a motherlode. Not just Philippine folklore, but also Malay, Laotian, et al.

That monster is a nightmare on, well...what's the word for not having a waist and two legs? ;)

Quote from: anthologos on September 21, 2022, 08:21:58 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
[...] I mean people laugh when I tell them the Penanggalan is a Filipino vampire my uncles used to tell ghost stories to us about when I was growing up - and DnD pretty much did a great job with it in Fiend Folio (the original!).

You know, total aside, but...

I just learned about the Penanggalan this summer, which came from delving into Philippine mythology a bit, and then I went deeper. Am reading books by Jocano, Demetrio, and Ramos. I had been looking for new inspiration for a Call of Cthulhu scenario I am writing, and wow, what a motherlode. Not just Philippine folklore, but also Malay, Laotian, et al.

That monster is a nightmare on, well...what's the word for not having a waist and two legs? ;)

Bisect?

Quote from: ponta1010 on September 21, 2022, 11:23:44 PM

Quote from: anthologos on September 21, 2022, 08:21:58 PM
That monster is a nightmare on, well...what's the word for not having a waist and two legs? ;)

Bisect?

Or "purely platonic relationship."

Quote from: KindaMeh on September 21, 2022, 03:44:16 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2022, 02:42:59 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
The *real* shame is that I do understand the Euro-centric fatigue in fantasy and the desire for other flavors - whether it's Asian or Middle-eastern established fantasy tropes remain as viable options...

The *problem* is the SJW morons have so demonized any and all forms of playing with cultural analogs outside of the European veneer, and have done so with such rabidness, that any attempts to do so are now suspect by us as consumers.

It's a hurdle to consider as a developer - because people get scared of being called racists by the actual racists, but as this is a cottage industry, it starts to look like you *might* just be burning money in order to get a kick in the balls by the usual suspects. (note - I say it starts to appear - this doesn't mean it's a reality).

Lastly - the only offerings apparently free of this reality that are high-production affairs (I'm sure I'm probably wrong about this somewhere so I'm speaking generally) are the shit being served up by SJW's themselves.

There is the added fact that it's very real that while some/many people feel a little Euro-centric fatigue, that the vast majority of players are *not* tired of Euro-centric fantasy. Much more the fact that "Euro-centric" fantasy typically means DnD fantasy which is not really fair to the entirety of the real European cultures that are largely ignored in the DnD Fantasy milieu.

There are some fantastic Euro-inspired settings out there that *need* more GM's pushing them. Symbaroum, The Witcher, are among two that come to mind. I believe with all my heart there is room for fun non-Euro content in DnD... but likely not outside the OSR, with the SJW's controlling the DnD brand.

But I say regardless of what the SJW zombie-hordes out there want, we should all be playing/designing/publishing/homebrewing whatever the fuck we want for those that want to have fun. I *dislike* the fact I'm so suspect of non-Euro themed settings nowadays because of the political lens everyone uses to inform their designs (whether on purpose or not in order to avoid the slings and arrows). We simply have to continue to find those souls willing to create high-quality games and support the shit out of them.

This. Pay attention, folks. When you grumble about everything being generic Eurofantasy, this is why.

Nothing less than abject kneeling before the woke altars will protect you if you try and stray off the beaten path. It's another mutation of the 'cultural appropriation' cancer.

Yeah, when wondering what caused this particular incident, and the cultural zeitgeist that it reflects, this stuff is relevant as hell.

Agreed.

There's a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation. Something like the deer skull headed cryptid on creepypasta pages called "wendigo" is blatant cultural appropriation of the name of a monster from Ojibwe religion that is completely different in its true form and isn't appreciated. I'm not gonna give you the complete history because there are books about it (https://g.co/kgs/uhGUQi), but basically the real wendigo is a shapeless personification of greed and gluttony, particularly capitalist excess in modern contexts. In ancient times it was associated with winter and cannibalism due to the lack of food available then, but this aspect is no longer relevant in modern times when heating and food is widely available year round. Tribes of the Pacific Northwest used to hold potlucks where they would burn their possessions to symbolize how they don't let the wendigo corrupt them... naturally the settlers outlawed this practice because it conflicted with EuroAmerican values of accumulating wealth. Nobody appreciates the original monster or the message behind it, which is now more relevant than ever in our clickbait dystopia, while a bland lie with zero symbolism behind it has traveled around the world via internet. That's the tragedy of cultural appropriation.

SJWs confuse cultural appreciation with appropriation and ruin appreciation for everyone else. The world is full of cultures that go unappreciated outside of their own cultural bubbles. It's a huge loss for humanity

Quote from: anthologos on September 21, 2022, 08:21:58 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
[...] I mean people laugh when I tell them the Penanggalan is a Filipino vampire my uncles used to tell ghost stories to us about when I was growing up - and DnD pretty much did a great job with it in Fiend Folio (the original!).

You know, total aside, but...

I just learned about the Penanggalan this summer, which came from delving into Philippine mythology a bit, and then I went deeper. Am reading books by Jocano, Demetrio, and Ramos. I had been looking for new inspiration for a Call of Cthulhu scenario I am writing, and wow, what a motherlode. Not just Philippine folklore, but also Malay, Laotian, et al.

That monster is a nightmare on, well...what's the word for not having a waist and two legs? ;)

Yeah! Southeast Asian mythology and folklore is ripe for some Cthulhu/horror RPG mining!

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
Yeah it bums me out RTS crew pantomimes woke bullshit in their private lives... but these days it's almost the norm for such virtue signaling. I don't find that their games themselves have much woke bullshit in them that isn't contextual (Cyberpunk for example). Thankfully.

Emphasis mine: how easily we give ground!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 22, 2022, 11:30:46 AM

Quote from: KindaMeh on September 21, 2022, 03:44:16 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2022, 02:42:59 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 20, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
The *real* shame is that I do understand the Euro-centric fatigue in fantasy and the desire for other flavors - whether it's Asian or Middle-eastern established fantasy tropes remain as viable options...

The *problem* is the SJW morons have so demonized any and all forms of playing with cultural analogs outside of the European veneer, and have done so with such rabidness, that any attempts to do so are now suspect by us as consumers.

It's a hurdle to consider as a developer - because people get scared of being called racists by the actual racists, but as this is a cottage industry, it starts to look like you *might* just be burning money in order to get a kick in the balls by the usual suspects. (note - I say it starts to appear - this doesn't mean it's a reality).

Lastly - the only offerings apparently free of this reality that are high-production affairs (I'm sure I'm probably wrong about this somewhere so I'm speaking generally) are the shit being served up by SJW's themselves.

There is the added fact that it's very real that while some/many people feel a little Euro-centric fatigue, that the vast majority of players are *not* tired of Euro-centric fantasy. Much more the fact that "Euro-centric" fantasy typically means DnD fantasy which is not really fair to the entirety of the real European cultures that are largely ignored in the DnD Fantasy milieu.

There are some fantastic Euro-inspired settings out there that *need* more GM's pushing them. Symbaroum, The Witcher, are among two that come to mind. I believe with all my heart there is room for fun non-Euro content in DnD... but likely not outside the OSR, with the SJW's controlling the DnD brand.

But I say regardless of what the SJW zombie-hordes out there want, we should all be playing/designing/publishing/homebrewing whatever the fuck we want for those that want to have fun. I *dislike* the fact I'm so suspect of non-Euro themed settings nowadays because of the political lens everyone uses to inform their designs (whether on purpose or not in order to avoid the slings and arrows). We simply have to continue to find those souls willing to create high-quality games and support the shit out of them.

This. Pay attention, folks. When you grumble about everything being generic Eurofantasy, this is why.

Nothing less than abject kneeling before the woke altars will protect you if you try and stray off the beaten path. It's another mutation of the 'cultural appropriation' cancer.

Yeah, when wondering what caused this particular incident, and the cultural zeitgeist that it reflects, this stuff is relevant as hell.

Agreed.

There's a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation. Something like the deer skull headed cryptid on creepypasta pages called "wendigo" is blatant cultural appropriation of the name of a monster from Ojibwe religion that is completely different in its true form and isn't appreciated. I'm not gonna give you the complete history because there are books about it (https://g.co/kgs/uhGUQi), but basically the real wendigo is a shapeless personification of greed and gluttony, particularly capitalist excess in modern contexts. In ancient times it was associated with winter and cannibalism due to the lack of food available then, but this aspect is no longer relevant in modern times when heating and food is widely available year round. Tribes of the Pacific Northwest used to hold potlucks where they would burn their possessions to symbolize how they don't let the wendigo corrupt them... naturally the settlers outlawed this practice because it conflicted with EuroAmerican values of accumulating wealth. Nobody appreciates the original monster or the message behind it, which is now more relevant than ever in our clickbait dystopia, while a bland lie with zero symbolism behind it has traveled around the world via internet. That's the tragedy of cultural appropriation.

SJWs confuse cultural appreciation with appropriation and ruin appreciation for everyone else. The world is full of cultures that go unappreciated outside of their own cultural bubbles. It's a huge loss for humanity

I'll take it a step further (and you may not agree).

People are not entitled to decide what degree someone appreciates a "thing". That is the heart of all of this nonsense. I'm TOTALLY guilty of it. We all are. The only difference is while I might call you a fucking monster for drinking Starbucks, and be vitriolic, I'm always doing in it in fun - because while I think you might not know better, I *know* I've been in that boat on a LOT of things.

Do I care that many Anime lovers todays have never watched Akira? Or that people now think there were tons of female ninjas around "back in the day"? Or that Chinese food here in America is actually Chinese? No. And while I know the nuance of all these things - that for that individual these things are fun and True(tm) it doesn't mean they *hate* what I know is larger in scope.

The problem with SJW's is they believe *they* know the One True Way about anything "Non-white" (whatever that means) and pretending to speak for entire cultures that aren't theirs (real or imagined) for the sole purpose of censoring anyone that believes different because they have pathologically attached their own unease at "The Others" upon anything and everything that differs from them.

This applies to gaming, movies, speech, anything that requires interpersonal communication. They make up these fancy terms to give themselves some legitimacy for their pathological views, and then of course, insist you use them too.

I want people to have fun. It's funny I see this even among OSR people too (Pundit does this a little bit) - where they will shit on books like Oriental Adventure or Al-Qadim for not being "authentic" enough to those respective cultures... BUT most of the time (and this includes Pundit) they have the good graces to put an asterisk on those views by saying "Well look, this is what we had at the time, we didn't know better." And this is very true.

I *love* Oriental Adventures. LOVE IT. YES because it's Black Belt theater. I'm Asian, and I don't love it *just* because it's "Asian". It's completely chuckle-worthy as American-circa-early-80's view of Asian cultures by way of D&D. Because if we're being **HONEST** D&D's take on "European" cultures is equally silly.

Al-Qadim is a wonderful Americanized Sinbad and Arabian Nights sendoff. Shitting on it, would be like shitting on MtG's "Arabian Nights" sendoff which was largely inspired by a single copy of 'Ramadan' from the Sandman comic (which alone is guilty of the same thing - but it's BEAUTIFUL in its presentation).

This mind-reading thing for the purpose of determining the intent of the author is fucking retarded. The bottom line should always be: is it fun? Do your players enjoy what you're presenting? Do you enjoy what you're presenting? If so - GOOD. Do More of That.

Otherwise we're gonna have to cancel Taco Bell for appropriating "Mexican Food" and McDonalds for desecrating "Irish cuisine" culture. (but we'll be watching you while you eat that Burrito Grande after a late night-binge.)

Quote from: Zalman on September 22, 2022, 11:50:46 AM

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
Yeah it bums me out RTS crew pantomimes woke bullshit in their private lives... but these days it's almost the norm for such virtue signaling. I don't find that their games themselves have much woke bullshit in them that isn't contextual (Cyberpunk for example). Thankfully.

Emphasis mine: how easily we give ground!

I'm calling it as it is. I have a marginal tolerance level of the shit that stains our hobby - and everything else we consume. I *game*, but there has never been a time where I don't curate the shit out of what I consume. This was true in the 70's, same is true now.

Cyberpunk as my example apparently requires some context (I trust you never played it?). Part of the context of cyberpunk is that is PREDICTED *all* of this Woke Identitarian bullshit as part of the reason why the United States society collapsed.

(https://i.imgur.com/KE1JQQU.jpg)

The entirety of the game is littered with elements of post-apocalyptic tribalism - including things that Woke cultists today would claim they want: Transhumanism, gender reassignment, among other things - as part of the game. The difference is - even in the Cyberpunk game it's looked upon as arbitrary to the realities of what matters in the game. Most of that shit is satirical. But there is plenty of racial tribalism and class tribalism as a genre conceit.

You won't find any of that shit in my fantasy games because it's not appropriate to my genre needs. But if I'm running Cyberpunk and you want to put a cyber-vagina on your male character, be prepared to have it filled by unwanted guests when you make the wrong enemies. Hazards of the genre.