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Author Topic: Kobold Press bends the knee  (Read 2994 times)

Brooding Paladin

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2022, 04:48:25 PM »
It's interesting that everyone felt really bad at the early, Euro-centric nature of places like Greyhawk.  So the publishers worked hard to create things like the Forgotten Realms, Golarion, the Kingdoms of Kalamar, to increase diversity.

But now THAT'S wrong, too.  Because in our earlier efforts at inclusivity we tried to make sure there were real-world settings because "how can you expect me to play a game if everyone can't see myself in it?!?"

The goalposts will never stop moving.  Best to just ignore the lunacy and do your thing.

Effete

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2022, 05:02:48 PM »
The goalposts will never stop moving.  Best to just ignore the lunacy and do your thing.
This ^^^

Then watch them eat their own.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2022, 05:58:17 PM »
Sorry, I had a copy paste error or something.

In any case, KP didn’t even read the whole blog post. The author said the entire essay was mediocre (which I agree with for different reasons than racism), but KP thought the complaint could be addressed by removing one paragraph. That’s just laziness and idiocy. Then they lied by claiming the essay was “revised”. No it wasn’t.

The woke complaint is frustrating enough. KP’s response is just insulting.

Brooding Paladin

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2022, 06:21:47 PM »
Then watch them eat their own.

Their circular firing squad is my favorite entertainment. 

It's really the major reason I'm on Twitter.  They jump all over each other trying to establish themselves as the alpha SJW (read:  completely beta).

Osman Gazi

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2022, 07:09:45 PM »
Honestly, the essay is kinda useless before and after the revision. Especially the “Strange but Familiar” section. Obviously fantasy Araby is a stock fantasy counterpart and not an actual depiction of the Middle East, but that section is needlessly dismissive of worldbuilding based on research and doesn’t present useful advice. And the bit about Araby just being a momentary theme park attraction in an otherwise pseudo European campaign really is offensive to any GM who wants to set their whole campaign there or any designer who spends effort on making whole books about it.

I do think it’s making a mountain out of a molehill and cutting out the paragraph doesn’t accomplish anything. It needs to be completely rewritten to be actually useful to GMs and not insulting to people who like Arabian settings

I would agree that it's largely useless, and kind of trivializes the idea of making a big chunk of your campaign set in that region or have a MENA "flavor".

Again, though SJGames is now on "the list", [EDIT]their "Arabian Nights" is a good resource--and even the condensed/modified section in "Banestorm" is good.  Although the presentation doesn't seem too "woke" to me, it's respectful, but recognizing the "flavor" of an "Arabian/Persian Nights" campaign--as more than a "Arab Disneyland".

That said, primary source material is always better than a gamified version...with the big caveat of "how can I fit this into my game system?"
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 07:21:50 PM by Osman Gazi »

Darkwind

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2022, 07:57:53 PM »
This shit is so exhausting and is truly born of an utter lack of true problems & hardship for your average SJW neckbeard and blue haired problem glasses hamplanet feminist. When you have nothing to do, have never had any challenges, you will self-create these 'obstacles' to overcome. Tilting at windmills and all that, innit?

My wife happens to be one of these 'exotic MENA' type people and I don't mean like her grandparents came to the West 2 generations ago. More like, fresh off the boat (Princess of Persia), didn't speak much English in 2009. She is mystified by this entire thing as it has no real precedent in history.

Between the combination of the utter self-loathing and hatred of your own culture and this incredible virtue signaling for the "Other" but where you mainly get everything wrong it just baffles her entirely. I have to share her observation. As a somewhat well read student of history, I also cannot recall a society more intent on committing cultural seppuku than the modern West.

She also finds it incredibly annoying that 1) They try so hard to speak for her or 'save' her while tripping over their own feet so awkwardly in the attempt and 2) Get offended 'for' her when the stuff they are screeching about she, and most other people like her, give approximately two fucks about.

I long ago disengaged with even attempting to communicate with these people it is just unfortunate that they are legion and have accumulated such wide institutional power.

Effete

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2022, 09:15:15 PM »
Sorry, I had a copy paste error or something.

Yeah, not a problem. I thought it was a copy/paste issue when all the page numbers and formatting artifacts were in the same spots. :)

Quote
In any case, KP didn’t even read the whole blog post. The author said the entire essay was mediocre (which I agree with for different reasons than racism), but KP thought the complaint could be addressed by removing one paragraph. That’s just laziness and idiocy. Then they lied by claiming the essay was “revised”. No it wasn’t.

The woke complaint is frustrating enough. KP’s response is just insulting.

Yep. It's why you never capitulate to the woke mob. As Brooding Paladin said (and many of us already know), there is no winning against them. There will always be SOMETHING they will find outrage for. Just ignore them if you don't want to mock them.

KP's "apology" will be seen as a weakness to exploit, not as a company trying to "right a wrong." They've already admitted to being "insensitive" so now everything they do (or have done) will be mucked for badwrongthink. Hope they enjoy being a target.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 09:25:00 PM by Effete »

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2022, 09:42:17 PM »
This shit is so exhausting and is truly born of an utter lack of true problems & hardship for your average SJW neckbeard and blue haired problem glasses hamplanet feminist. When you have nothing to do, have never had any challenges, you will self-create these 'obstacles' to overcome. Tilting at windmills and all that, innit?

My wife happens to be one of these 'exotic MENA' type people and I don't mean like her grandparents came to the West 2 generations ago. More like, fresh off the boat (Princess of Persia), didn't speak much English in 2009. She is mystified by this entire thing as it has no real precedent in history.

Between the combination of the utter self-loathing and hatred of your own culture and this incredible virtue signaling for the "Other" but where you mainly get everything wrong it just baffles her entirely. I have to share her observation. As a somewhat well read student of history, I also cannot recall a society more intent on committing cultural seppuku than the modern West.

She also finds it incredibly annoying that 1) They try so hard to speak for her or 'save' her while tripping over their own feet so awkwardly in the attempt and 2) Get offended 'for' her when the stuff they are screeching about she, and most other people like her, give approximately two fucks about.

I long ago disengaged with even attempting to communicate with these people it is just unfortunate that they are legion and have accumulated such wide institutional power.

Thank you for this. You said it very succinctly and much better than I would have. I agree with this 100%.
Member in good standing of COSM.

The Spaniard

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2022, 09:54:10 AM »
It's interesting that everyone felt really bad at the early, Euro-centric nature of places like Greyhawk.  So the publishers worked hard to create things like the Forgotten Realms, Golarion, the Kingdoms of Kalamar, to increase diversity.

But now THAT'S wrong, too.  Because in our earlier efforts at inclusivity we tried to make sure there were real-world settings because "how can you expect me to play a game if everyone can't see myself in it?!?"

The goalposts will never stop moving.  Best to just ignore the lunacy and do your thing.

Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

Omega

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2022, 10:10:48 AM »
real-world cultures are not playgrounds for characters to run wildly in.
Does this include say... fantasy versions of medieval britain, the basis for the vast majority of official and unofficial D&D campaigns?
 :o

Oh its better than that.

All this "Its not a playground!" only applies till THEY want to make a buck off it.

Odds are they are planning some Arabian Knights themed book and are weaponizing this to tear down any competition while painting themselves as oh so virtuous.

Kobold Press has been dodgy since at least 5e's advent with their fake 5e products. So really nothing they do anymore surprises me. And Im a big fan of the Tyranny of Dragons set for 5e.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2022, 10:12:58 AM by Omega »

Brooding Paladin

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2022, 11:11:33 AM »
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

I love the Greyhawk setting and have used it often.  And my campaign happen to be Euro-centric mostly because that's what I know most about and think I can make a fair acquittal with in my gaming.  Which you would think would meet with the SJW mantra of "stay in your lane and don't appropriate other cultures" but since it's predominately white in nature, nah.  That's not allowed either.  Screw them.

But yeah, I meant nothing critical toward Greyhawk and her fans.

The Spaniard

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2022, 12:36:20 PM »
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

I love the Greyhawk setting and have used it often.  And my campaign happen to be Euro-centric mostly because that's what I know most about and think I can make a fair acquittal with in my gaming.  Which you would think would meet with the SJW mantra of "stay in your lane and don't appropriate other cultures" but since it's predominately white in nature, nah.  That's not allowed either.  Screw them.

But yeah, I meant nothing critical toward Greyhawk and her fans.

Cool, thanks for the clarification!  Makes sense now.

SHARK

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2022, 12:51:58 PM »
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

I love the Greyhawk setting and have used it often.  And my campaign happen to be Euro-centric mostly because that's what I know most about and think I can make a fair acquittal with in my gaming.  Which you would think would meet with the SJW mantra of "stay in your lane and don't appropriate other cultures" but since it's predominately white in nature, nah.  That's not allowed either.  Screw them.

But yeah, I meant nothing critical toward Greyhawk and her fans.

Greetings!

Yes, Brooding Paladin, I understand where you are coming from. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Euro-Centric game campaign. And yeah, Greyhawk is awesome, too!

I have to say, that the whole notion of Greyhawk somehow being "problematic" or racist, or "Euro-Centric" is all kind of BS. If there is or was any kind of "Euro-Centric" focus in the campaign, well, too bad. Tough titty said the kitty when the milk went dry! D&D is a game created by white, European descended Americans. The vast, vast majority of gamers, themselves, are white Americans or Europeans. These are simply absolute facts. It is also an absolute fact that going back to the earliest days of the RPG hobby, gamers have been passionately interested in other cultures, regions, and historical elements. Gamers have also been very open and positive towards accepting and welcoming gamers from other races, ethnicities, and cultures. There have certainly been an increase of participation from non-white gamers, from a variety of cultural backgrounds in the years since the beginning. That too, has been generally quite positive.

I also think it is critical to remember that for the most part, the "critics" and demagogues of all this BS are generally not even minorities, or otherwise non-white or non-European.

The demagogues of the BS and promoters of racism, division, and hatred, are typically other white Americans, or white Europeans.

These people are terrible, and should be opposed and resisted at every opportunity!

From a DM and game design perspective, remembering that most gamers are white--it just isn't an issue for most groups to fully or commonly engage with some foreign, non-Euro-Centric culture. Thanks to the glorious capitalism and "Hu-white supremacistsss" systems of statistics and marketing analysis, we also know, for *decades* now, that for the most part, non-Euro-Centric campaign worlds are a commercial failure. Despite considerable Asian influences in general through the media and mediums, Chinese and Japanese game worlds are not terribly popular. Forget fantasy Africa. Nyambe was, while artistically and creatively beautiful--largely a failure. Oriental Adventures and Al Qadim? Yes, also commercial failures. Oh, and yes, mot all of these culturally diverse campaign worlds and products--supplements, monster books, and soon--were also created, written, and marketed by white people. TALISLANTA--probably my favorite cult classic favourite campaign world--was entirely non-white, non-European, and it too, was a commercial failure. For a refresher, TALISLANTA was full of crayon coloured races, peoples, and creatures--that were not even human at all.

The market of RPG gamers have consistently demonstrated that the main, dominating preference is for Euro-Centric, Tolkienesque game worlds.

Armed with all of those facts, it isn't surprising that much of the early Greyhawk adventure and literature seemed to be catering to more Euro-Centric preferences. However, as any long-time Greyhawk fan or DM knows--Greyhawk has many races, cultures and regions that are not Euro-Centric. Even as a DM developing your own game world, there is likely many regions and cultures that are non-Eurocentric. In running a particular campaign, it is just a process and product of what region or culture you are setting the campaign in, which determines the focus. Greyhawk, or many other campaign worlds, can be Eurocentric or as non Eurocentric as a person could want, depending on where they want to focus a particular campaign.

Ahh, well. These people, the SJW's, the Wokists, are insane. They all love Marxism, nihilism, and chaos. They are Leftist degenerates. It is important that we gatekeep our hobby, and curb stomp these people out of our hobby. Don't invite them to your games, or participate in any meaningful way with Leftist Libtards. They are like human rodents, constantly wanting to eat, devour, and destroy.

I've rambled on enough for now. These Leftist game critics drive me crazy, too! ;D Kobold Press bends the knee indeed! Sad, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

The Spaniard

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2022, 05:45:21 PM »
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

I love the Greyhawk setting and have used it often.  And my campaign happen to be Euro-centric mostly because that's what I know most about and think I can make a fair acquittal with in my gaming.  Which you would think would meet with the SJW mantra of "stay in your lane and don't appropriate other cultures" but since it's predominately white in nature, nah.  That's not allowed either.  Screw them.

But yeah, I meant nothing critical toward Greyhawk and her fans.

Greetings!

Yes, Brooding Paladin, I understand where you are coming from. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Euro-Centric game campaign. And yeah, Greyhawk is awesome, too!

I have to say, that the whole notion of Greyhawk somehow being "problematic" or racist, or "Euro-Centric" is all kind of BS. If there is or was any kind of "Euro-Centric" focus in the campaign, well, too bad. Tough titty said the kitty when the milk went dry! D&D is a game created by white, European descended Americans. The vast, vast majority of gamers, themselves, are white Americans or Europeans. These are simply absolute facts. It is also an absolute fact that going back to the earliest days of the RPG hobby, gamers have been passionately interested in other cultures, regions, and historical elements. Gamers have also been very open and positive towards accepting and welcoming gamers from other races, ethnicities, and cultures. There have certainly been an increase of participation from non-white gamers, from a variety of cultural backgrounds in the years since the beginning. That too, has been generally quite positive.

I also think it is critical to remember that for the most part, the "critics" and demagogues of all this BS are generally not even minorities, or otherwise non-white or non-European.

The demagogues of the BS and promoters of racism, division, and hatred, are typically other white Americans, or white Europeans.

These people are terrible, and should be opposed and resisted at every opportunity!

From a DM and game design perspective, remembering that most gamers are white--it just isn't an issue for most groups to fully or commonly engage with some foreign, non-Euro-Centric culture. Thanks to the glorious capitalism and "Hu-white supremacistsss" systems of statistics and marketing analysis, we also know, for *decades* now, that for the most part, non-Euro-Centric campaign worlds are a commercial failure. Despite considerable Asian influences in general through the media and mediums, Chinese and Japanese game worlds are not terribly popular. Forget fantasy Africa. Nyambe was, while artistically and creatively beautiful--largely a failure. Oriental Adventures and Al Qadim? Yes, also commercial failures. Oh, and yes, mot all of these culturally diverse campaign worlds and products--supplements, monster books, and soon--were also created, written, and marketed by white people. TALISLANTA--probably my favorite cult classic favourite campaign world--was entirely non-white, non-European, and it too, was a commercial failure. For a refresher, TALISLANTA was full of crayon coloured races, peoples, and creatures--that were not even human at all.

The market of RPG gamers have consistently demonstrated that the main, dominating preference is for Euro-Centric, Tolkienesque game worlds.

Armed with all of those facts, it isn't surprising that much of the early Greyhawk adventure and literature seemed to be catering to more Euro-Centric preferences. However, as any long-time Greyhawk fan or DM knows--Greyhawk has many races, cultures and regions that are not Euro-Centric. Even as a DM developing your own game world, there is likely many regions and cultures that are non-Eurocentric. In running a particular campaign, it is just a process and product of what region or culture you are setting the campaign in, which determines the focus. Greyhawk, or many other campaign worlds, can be Eurocentric or as non Eurocentric as a person could want, depending on where they want to focus a particular campaign.

Ahh, well. These people, the SJW's, the Wokists, are insane. They all love Marxism, nihilism, and chaos. They are Leftist degenerates. It is important that we gatekeep our hobby, and curb stomp these people out of our hobby. Don't invite them to your games, or participate in any meaningful way with Leftist Libtards. They are like human rodents, constantly wanting to eat, devour, and destroy.

I've rambled on enough for now. These Leftist game critics drive me crazy, too! ;D Kobold Press bends the knee indeed! Sad, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Couldn't agree more Shark

Effete

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Re: Kobold Press bends the knee
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2022, 06:24:12 PM »
Who is this "everyone" that felt really bad?  I loved the setting and still use it as my campaign world 40 years later.  There's plenty of diversity in Greyhawk, just not in the way SJW's want it.

You're right; that was poorly worded.  I meant "everyone who is predisposed to feel bad about this kind of thing."

Should have written it "eVeRyOnE" ;)