I see quite a few sourcebooks out there for Pendragon, at least on DriveThruRPG. Which ones are relevant for KAP 5E games? :confused:
5e KAP rules
5.1 KAP rules
The Great Pendragon Campaign
Pendragon Gamemaster Chracters
The titles in the Leather Books of KAP bundle-
The Book of the Warlord
The Book of Uther
The Book of Battle 2nd Edition
The Book of the Estate
The Book of Records: Vol 1 Knights
The GPC: King Uther Expansion is included in the Book of Uther
The Book of Knights and Ladies
The Book of the Manor
The Book of Battle (1st edition)
The Book of Armies
The Book of the Entourage
The rest were written for previous editions, but the core game mechanics have changed very little over the years. Specific details may have changed, but it is not at all dificult to use the older material for the current edition.
All of the sourcebooks and supplements add detail and focus to particular aspects of the game, but other than the Great Pendragon Campaign are really optional.
If I wanted a general Malory-esque[1] King Arthur game where I specifically didn't want the GPC (yes, I know it's awesome, it's just never going to happen with my group) but also as much PC variety as possible, which books should I acquire?
[1] I almost said "Malorian" there, but the awful Eddings flashbacks brought me to my senses
For variety in PCs The Book of Knights and Ladies is a must, it expands character generation beyond the core rules' default to Silsbury knights.
The original "The Pendragon Campaign" is pay what you want and would give an overview of the whole thing.
Book of the Estate/Book of the Manor
Book of Battles 2nd/Book of Battles 1st
What are the major differences between these? Difference between 5 and 5.1? More detail?
Book of the Manor is detailed economics for small holdings, Book of the Estate is the newer economic system and covers large holdings.
I don't have 5.1 so I can't say what has changed. I think the errata from 5.0 have been corrected, but I am not sure what else changed.
One of the masterpieces of RPG design is up on Bundle of Holding, along with the amazing Great Pendragon Campaign. (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/KAP2017)
Quote from: Voros;970037One of the masterpieces of RPG design is up on Bundle of Holding, along with the amazing Great Pendragon Campaign. (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/KAP2017)
Two bundles, as well. I missed out on the Cyberpunk 2020 one since I already have everything, so those bastards came up with some other way of getting my money. :)
Totally agree on Book of Knights and Book of the Manor.
And just to be clear, they're on KAP 5.2 now, although a POD option isn't available yet, and it doesn't sound like there are any major changes. Just some corrected text and new art.
Quote from: CRKrueger;904285Book of Battles 2nd/Book of Battles 1st
Book of Battle 2nd is, according to Stafford, the Battle System he's always wanted for KAP. It isn't more detail than 1st... it's different. Use 2nd.
Quote from: daniel_ream;904241If I wanted a general Malory-esque[1] King Arthur game where I specifically didn't want the GPC (yes, I know it's awesome, it's just never going to happen with my group) but also as much PC variety as possible, which books should I acquire?
Keep in mind that the core rulebook is going to give you a LOT of information to build exactly this.
The value in getting the GPC is that it gives you the details of the Five Phases of the campaign. What weapons and armor changes through the history of the GPC. The first phase is more historical. But as magic increases during Arthur's reign anachronistic armor (like plate) is introduced.
As for PC variety, remember that everyone is a Knight, but that Traits and Passions will be what distinguishes one PC from another.
In Mallory everyone pretty much is a Christian knight. But if you really want want more variety for the PCs grab the Book of Knights and Ladies.
I can't imagine ever wanting to run the Pendragon Campaign, but I do enjoy King Arthur Pendragon. Wasn't there that one Saracen knight in Le Morte D'Arthur: Sir Palamedes?
The 4th edition books give you enough information to make knights from various places, and I think it's better than 5th edition as a result, but they are essentially the same game. I like 4th because everything I need is in one fat book. I would caution anyone using 4th to be careful about letting anyone use the magic rules. Personally I don't let PCs have access to it and disregard the inclusion of such rules.
Just a reminder: 15 days, 9 hours...
King Arthur Pendragon Bundle of Holding (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/KAP2017)
Pendragon+2 Bundle of Holding (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Pendragon2)
The Aquelarre Backerkit (https://aquelarre-the-dark-and-mature-medieval-rpg-now-in.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders/36464) lets you order KAP 5.2 with art from the Spanish Edition.
Quote from: CRKrueger;971381The Aquelarre Backerkit (https://aquelarre-the-dark-and-mature-medieval-rpg-now-in.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders/36464) lets you order KAP 5.2 with art from the Spanish Edition.
And if you had edition 5.1 from the previous bundle, or perhaps from any other previous purchase on DriveThruRPG, you'll be uploaded to 5.2 automatically--and it is
gorgeous.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;971415And if you had edition 5.1 from the previous bundle, or perhaps from any other previous purchase on DriveThruRPG, you'll be uploaded to 5.2 automatically--and it is gorgeous.
Ooo, now I'm going to have to get the hardbound. Damn you. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;971421Ooo, now I'm going to have to get the hardbound. Damn you. :D
I'd feel worse about that if I wasn't feeling the same urge. :D
How anyone could like Pendragon and not want the GPC is beyond me.
Ken Hite just tweeted about the Bundle sale and called GPC the greatest RPG campaign ever.
Quote from: Voros;972079Ken Hite just tweeted about the Bundle sale and called GPC the greatest RPG campaign ever.
I don't think he's wrong. I think it surpasses even the great Call of Cthulhu campaigns.
Quote from: RPGPundit;972039How anyone could like Pendragon and not want the GPC is beyond me.
Not everyone likes what you like. D&D, for instance.
I really don't care about playing against the backdrop of King Arthur's rise and decline and don't find it especially compelling. I don't care about preordained events occurring. I have the book. I might use it for ideas and let the PCs radically alter events but the vibe I get from it is that it expects all of those events to unfold regardless of what happens at my game table.
Quote from: RPGPundit;972039How anyone could like Pendragon and not want the GPC is beyond me.
Many things are beyond you. It's all right, no one holds it against you.
Quote from: daniel_ream;972162Many things are beyond you.
I almost said that but relented. :p
In the case of Pendragon, though, that's what it's all about. It's Stafford's vision of the Arthurian legend.
And the GPC can be run in so many different ways. The idea that it's just one big metaplot that has to be followed where PCs have no influence is a very narrow way of looking at it.
Quote from: Voros;972079Ken Hite just tweeted about the Bundle sale and called GPC the greatest RPG campaign ever.
It's the greatest RPG campaign book I've ever seen. And it had a huge influence on me. It's the reason that both Arrows of Indra and Dark Albion have future-timelines rather than past-histories.
Yeah read Stafford about GPC, he doesn't think it has to play out in any specific way but he does believe in tapping into an underlying mythic archtypes and events via play. Remember the dude is a Shaman.
GPC is an intimidating beast but it can also be used as a backdrop for a campaign and a source for many ideas and adventures.
If anyone is interested, here's a post I wrote (https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/2015/11/03/king-arthur-pendragon-the-player-knights-and-the-broader-story/) up a while back about playing King Arthur Pendragon against the backdrop of The Great Pendragon Campaign without the Player Characters become automatons through a straight-jacket meta-plot.
Greg Stafford doesn't play at my table so I actually don't care what the game is "all about" to him.
But Stafford is playing at your table: through your SOUL mannn!!:D
Quote from: Voros;972722But Stafford is playing at your table: through your SOUL mannn!!:D
Okay, I guess I had better adapt to his needs and make sure Arthur becomes king and conquers Rome and is betrayed by his queen because it's all so deeply meaningful and more interesting than what my friends might inflict upon the setting.
The PC knights can add their stories and become a part of Arthurian legend rich tapestry, at least that's how i see it and run it for my players.
Quote from: John Scott;972839The PC knights can add their stories and become a part of Arthurian legend rich tapestry, at least that's how i see it and run it for my players.
I agree; I merely mean that I don't care about whether Arthur's saga unfolds or not in the manner prescribed. That's not why I play games. Maybe Arthur will be king and we'll enter a golden age, or maybe our PCs will screw things up for him. I already read the books so I don't need to play them out at the table.
Quote from: Dumarest;972815Okay, I guess I had better adapt to his needs and make sure Arthur becomes king and conquers Rome and is betrayed by his queen because it's all so deeply meaningful and more interesting than what my friends might inflict upon the setting.
More seriously that is not what Stafford wants. He think that playing is the creation of new myths not a strict recreation of them.
But he does believe that we share a collective unconscious of mythical figures and structures and that occasionally play will overlap with these. He uses an example in play a PC was given Excablibur and told to throw it in the lake but instead they took it and threw it into a bush, so they recreated an incident from the myth without knowing it was part of the myth.
Quote from: Voros;972900More seriously that is not what Stafford wants. He think that playing is the creation of new myths not a strict recreation of them.
But he does believe that we share a collective unconscious of mythical figures and structures and that occasionally play will overlap with these. He uses an example in play a PC was given Excablibur and told to throw it in the lake but instead they took it and threw it into a bush, so they recreated an incident from the myth without knowing it was part of the myth.
I hear you but...
How is throwing it in a bush recreating throwing it in a lake?
In many versions of the story the squire given the sword doesn't throw it into the lake as instructed by Arthur but hides it in a bush and goes back and tell Arthur he has thrown it into the lake. But Arthur asks him questions about what did he see when he threw the sword in the lake and the squire says something like 'just the wind on the waves' so Arthur knows he is lying and send him back to do it right.
Quote from: Voros;972908In many versions of the story the squire given the sword doesn't throw it into the lake as instructed by Arthur but hides it in a bush and goes back and tell Arthur he has thrown it into the lake. But Arthur asks him questions about what did he see when he threw the sword in the lake and the squire says something like 'just the wind on the waves' so Arthur knows he is lying and send him back to do it right.
Thanks for breaking that down for me. I don't remember that story.
Quote from: Dumarest;972847I agree; I merely mean that I don't care about whether Arthur's saga unfolds or not in the manner prescribed. That's not why I play games. Maybe Arthur will be king and we'll enter a golden age, or maybe our PCs will screw things up for him. I already read the books so I don't need to play them out at the table.
Here's how I perceive it. (I apologize beforehand for my grammar errors)
To me It's the same like playing a historical campaign based in WWII or any other war story that you know your side is going to lose. Allies are going to win in the end no matter what your soldier players do and here's why.
WWII Tank = Mounted Knight
WWII Tank Platoon = A party of PC's Mounted Knights
I don't think that a tank platoon can change the tide of a battle where thousands of units are involved, how much the fate of a war. You have to be a general to do that.
Player knights in order to change fate and the story must become war leaders (kings) and able to command entire kingdoms or VERY influential Knights in the round table. So influential that they are perceived as better than the likes of Lancelot, Guinevere and Merlin in the eyes of Arthur. Not an easy task at all especially if you consider that NPC's have passions to. But if my players somehow managed to pull it off then I would applaud them! (I did that when they stoped Cthulhu in SoYS, I congratulate each one of my friends in my group for accomplishing such a task)
You can of course change the plot, how the major NPC's behave, the love triangle between Arthur, Guinevere and Lancelot (maybe Arthur is in love with one of the players!) etc. but then you are creating an alternate version of the story same like creating an alternate earth version of WWII. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you like go for it.
Now here's why I don't have to change anything in GPC and why I consider Pendragon one of the best rpgs ever published.
Arthurian tale like Macbeth or Elric is a tragic tale, but also a tale of great heroism and self-sacrifice. The fact that the player knights know beforehand that they are riding to their dooms following Arthur's path adds immensely to the tragedy involved. It reminds me of Achilles who chose eternal glory but knew beforehand that in doing so he was going to die.
Arthur to me is the force or the plot device that leads to the player knights catharsis, that's why I prefer to build around him than altering him.
Quote from: Voros;972609Yeah read Stafford about GPC, he doesn't think it has to play out in any specific way but he does believe in tapping into an underlying mythic archtypes and events via play. Remember the dude is a Shaman.
Shamans and Wizards are apparently good at setting-design.