http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/steve-old-gygax.php?page=11
I pretty much agree with everything those guys say. Design-by-committee is always the worst most soul-sucking way to go.
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Quote from: RPGPundit;367138I pretty much agree with everything those guys say. Design-by-committee is always the worst most soul-sucking way to go.
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I agree. Most of my favorite rpgs were primarily written by one or two people at the helm with a strong hand on the tiller and often something of a dick when it comes to jealously guarding their vision and doing it their way.
Games designed by committee in general don't appeal to me.
*nods*
I've never seen design-by-committee produce anything that was exceptional, mediocre but not exceptional.
If you liked that, you gonna
love this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/214173-monte-cook-d-d-4th-edition-4.html#post3941016). It's Logan Bonner, full time WotC employee and one of the dudes on D&D 4E's design committee, replying to an interview Monte Cook gave about 4E's release (prior to release).
Quote from: Logan BonnerThe most interesting part to me [in the Monte Cook interview, ed.] was this quote:
"Wizards' design philosophy and mine also started to head in different directions around that time. I value a single, uncompromised vision, and they value teamwork. (That's me trying to be fair to their point of view.)"
Perhaps this is only interesting to me since I work here, but it does point to a major shift WotC has gone through in making D&D. The creation of the development team was a huge change, and recently the mechanical design team was separated out, making the process even more group-focused.
Personally, I'm all for this approach. I think we turn out better design when we have more people bringing ideas to the table. In a game like D&D, where there are so many different approaches to playing, we need people with different perspectives and play styles to guarantee that everybody who picks up that book finds something they can get excited about.
That's not to say the "single, uncompromised vision" approach isn't also valid. Would a product like Ptolus be the same if it had been designed by a group? No. Would it have been good? Maybe. I'm guessing it would be tough for a team of, say, six people to really care about such a big book. One person who's invested in the setting is well-suited to that project.
Now, a team working on a set of core books is a different story. When the pieces are broken up into manageable units, you really do care. I care about the rogue and the warlock because I had a hand in making them (and I'm playing them to make sure nobody screws them up ). Rob Heinsoo and Mike Mearls really care about the fighter because they had a major role in deciding how it worked. Everybody working on the book is passionate about something, whether it's the halfling, or the cleric, or feats, or the Athletics skill, or magic items, or DM advice. (You wouldn't believe the debate we had about whether attacking around a corner should take a cover penalty!) The team approach to these books makes sure every nook and cranny of the rules gets the scrutiny it should.
So when Monte says he's trying to be fair to our point of view, I think he's being perfectly fair. I also think teamwork is the right tool for this job, and for most other products we do.
Quote from: RPGPundit;367138I pretty much agree with everything those guys say. Design-by-committee is always the worst most soul-sucking way to go.
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Ain't that damn fucking right. :hatsoff:
An interesting exercise might be to see how many of your favorite or most memorable RPGs were written by committee vs. a dedicated 1-2 person team.
Quote from: Logan Bonner;367190Now, a team working on a set of core books is a different story. (...) The team approach to these books makes sure every nook and cranny of the rules gets the scrutiny it should.
Riiight.
I think this applies to way more than just RPGs. There's a lot to be said for having a good collaborator...but yeah, you get 6 or more people working on the same project and it gets ugly...
...I'm speaking of this from my adventures in trying to self-publish comic books.
I think the committee approach leads to a lot of self censorship of ideas (in many cases at least) and a tendency to try to tailor your writing and concepts to appeal to what you think the committee wants to hear. I do think it is good for finding holes and problems. But I've also seen a lot of games come out very vanilla from committee. You just don't seem to get enough personality out of the deal. Maybe because, to function as a committee, you need to restrain your personality in the interest of getting things done.
Not sure I 100% agree, given some observations with the video-game industry. Sometimes a single creator pulls all the soul out of their games (Warren Spector of Deus Ex/Thief fame), and sometimes a more collaborative approach creates better games with more soul/character than others (Valve's games). Certainly you could use the "committees sucks the soul out" view for games like Call of Duty or WoW
While it's easier for a group to lose focus, over-compromise or create something bland, sometimes a small group of thinktanks uses up all its steam.
Quote from: Peregrin;367245Not sure I 100% agree, given some observations with the video-game industry. Sometimes a single creator pulls all the soul out of their games (Warren Spector of Deus Ex/Thief fame), and sometimes a more collaborative approach creates better games with more soul/character than others (Valve's games). Certainly you could use the "committees sucks the soul out" view for games like Call of Duty or WoW
While it's easier for a group to lose focus, over-compromise or create something bland, sometimes a small group of thinktanks uses up all its steam.
I can see that. My personal experience with committees has been mainly negative. The biggest problem is meandering and creating something for the sake of creating something, rather than with a unified vision. I agree, sometimes you put four people in a room and the chemistry creates something truly wonderful. However, usually what I see is peoples' creative fire dimmed by a committee mentality. Under a good leader and in a small group, I do think it is entirely possible to produce something high quality.
With a single creator, I think the problem that arises is a personal echo chamber effect. If you aren't bouncing ideas off of people who can be honest and critical, its tough to know when you are taking a seriously wrong turn. I think this is where a good editor (or just reliable friends with some guts) can be handy.
A team is not a committee. Cook and Tweet were a team when they designed 3.0. Gygax and Arneson were arguably a team.
A team is when you have two or three or four people working together to bring on the awesome.
A committee is when you have a corporate board stating first what they expect the game to have because of what demographics appear to want, putting a bunch of restrictions and obligatory content into the thing, getting rid of anything too creative, and essentially working together to make sure the "awesome" is as severely limited and controlled as possible, trusting that the boys in marketing will generate some artificial-awesome for it later, because that trick always works.
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Quote from: jeff37923;367186I've never seen design-by-committee produce anything that was exceptional, mediocre but not exceptional.
Agreed, I would say 'functional' at best.
(I almost peed myself over this one: Random Shit (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/traveller-artwork-steve.php?page=7))
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;367232I think this applies to way more than just RPGs. There's a lot to be said for having a good collaborator...but yeah, you get 6 or more people working on the same project and it gets ugly...
Hmmm, I am sniffing a whiff of something in the air... what's that? Ah, the stench of GMless games!
Quote from: StormBringer;367321(I almost peed myself over this one: Random Shit (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/traveller-artwork-steve.php?page=7))
Most of that came from the old Judges Guild modules, which was the worst of the worst for
Classic Traveller.