In general, for me it depends. Superheroes covers a pretty wide range - from street level crimefighting to galaxy-spanning space opera.

The main thing I look for is that action should be fun for the players and the GM. If I'm GMing, I don't want to be struggling to make the players behave in a way that I think is proper. The same if I'm a player. If the players want to play The Punisher or Spawn, then I'll try to make that fun. The fun may include running or fighting with the police who oppose them, but that's not me trying to make them into Batman when they want to be The Punisher.

I haven't played supers in a while, but one of the recent campaigns was a supervillains campaign where we were just trying to use our powers for profit. It's not moral, but in game terms one of the interesting things is that supervillains are pro-active. Superheroes tend to just wait around for a supervillain plot to foil, but supervillains will take a peaceful setting and start stuff.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1027486That's what I mean.  By what right to they do that?  If I'm Commissioner Gordon, a "hero" who kills is a murderer, unless it's clear and obvious self defense.

That's true, but also note that a hero who doesn't murder but just beats people up is guilty of assault, probably along with destruction of property, obstruction of justice, and other crimes. In real life, the law usually doesn't look kindly on vigilantism - and for good reason. The game isn't real life.

Right. The reality is - depending on the powers of a metahuman - the ability to remain 1) anonymous or 2) free of moral ambiguity is virtually impossible.

You could mitigate #1 a lot in earlier history. In modernity, I'm afraid unless you have some seriously useful utility powers like shapechange or your powers are not overt, you'd be figured out eventually.

The real thing about Supers as a genre is the implicit notion that you as an individual have abilities that the rest of human society doesn't. It ignores the fact you may not even *be* human at all. It ignores that fact that your very perceptions and interactions with reality are radically different than the vast majority of the populace - but it assumes you're going to try to abide by the morality and ethics of these beings that in all likelihood are utterly inferior to you.

The real question is what conceits in considering these questions are you willing to allow in your game? The Incredibles gives it a solid nod, the Watchmen define it utterly. Magneto exemplifies one polar side of it, Captain America the other.

Without getting into the "Punch a Nazi thing" - (or maybe we should since this is squarely where it was co-opted) - Magneto makes a great case for this. He maintains he's *not* human. He's a different species entirely. And he thinks that his species is not beholden to the dangers that pose his kind from what he considers an inferior species. And he acts accordingly. His origin is a powerful statement to his beliefs. What would *not* justify Magneto going ham on Nazis in a WWII era super-hero game? Would he not, in fact, be a hero? Or would you say he's something else? Granted his views about Mutantkind (Homo Superior in his parlance) wasn't fully developed. Justapose that concept of what if he did have that idea while being a war-camp prisoner when his powers manifested? Then imagine if while in the throes of meeting out that justice - Captain America showed up.

I think one of the things the genre gets wrong in gaming is not adherence to this morality code which largely was being enforced in the content by exterior forces that came to define various periods of comic history, but that these games don't enforce that in-game reality with its own conceits.

There is a HUGE difference if super-humans start from a starting point of cultural positivity like in DC where they do a lot of hero-worship, than starting with a bit of fear and skepticism and more real-world issues like Marvel. It's a balancing act that most games either ignore, or use really punishing mechanics that gorilla-fist the rules to justify the conceits.

I think you can have your cake and eat it too - you just have to clearly define those bars and it isn't easy. What keeps Superman from killing bad guys? *Nothing* keeps him from doing it other than his own code which extols some very human rights, given the crap hes had to put up with, probably makes him a much more complex person to moral relativists. Batman once got Superman's powered and was horrified. Because he realized exactly how powerful Superman was - and didn't do everything he could to "fix things". So when Batman did - of course he became the super-tyrant.

I dunno... it's kinda fun to juxtapose those things in theory - even in game. Like imagine Spiderman telling Superman "With great power comes great responsibility." hehehe.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1027486That's what I mean.  By what right to they do that?  If I'm Commissioner Gordon, a "hero" who kills is a murderer, unless it's clear and obvious self defense.

The same justification vigilantes have used in the real world and some people support and endorse them for the reasons some in the real world. The reaction depends on the circumstances of the crime. For example, I don't think allot of Gotham would suddenly despise Batman if he kiled the Joker (as he's commonly been depicted: a gleeful mass murderer with a body count that must be in the triple digits). Given the number of police officers he'd killed I'm suprised the Joker hasn't "been shot while trying to escape" to tell the truth. So I don't find hard to imagine that GCPD wouldnt lose much sleep looking for his killer.

But if he beat Catwoman to death for pilfering a necklace that's going to go over differently.

Which doesn't mean, I always agree with those justifications, especially relative to the real world. But as far as games go I try to weigh things from the repercussions it seems they'd reasonable have, adjusted for intended mood and genre.

Quote from: jhkim;1027578That's true, but also note that a hero who doesn't murder but just beats people up is guilty of assault, probably along with destruction of property, obstruction of justice, and other crimes. In real life, the law usually doesn't look kindly on vigilantism - and for good reason. The game isn't real life.

This is a good point. Most superheroes are vigilantes that break multiple laws on a regular basis, some ignore due process and what are considered Rights in the U.S., etc. Like Action Movie heroes and the main characters in other genres. Its not realistic, at least not totally but its not real life. Its entertainment and sometimes meant to be thrilling, intense and cathartic rather realistic.

Quote from: tenbones;1027720Right. The reality is - depending on the powers of a metahuman - the ability to remain 1) anonymous or 2) free of moral ambiguity is virtually impossible.

You could mitigate #1 a lot in earlier history. In modernity, I'm afraid unless you have some seriously useful utility powers like shapechange or your powers are not overt, you'd be figured out eventually.

I've read some interesting analysis of this idea that considers it a little overblown. Forensics and things like facial recognition are blown out or proportion, etc. I'll see if I can find those articles again. Yeah, it would be harder than usually depicted (often seemingly effortless) but not as impossible as some detractors make it out, especially concealing it from the general public.

 I like the take more modern Super stories take on. Particularly when the characters are found or reveal their secret but there are circumstances involved that keep their identities limited knowledge rather than the 'no ones knows or everyone knows' binary in earlier comic stories.

Gotham PD likely knows the Batman is one guy (or is one guy most of the time) but not who. Unless Bruce's forensic data turns up in a spot to be compared (and he hasn't hacked and altered it or paid someone too).

If you (over) think it, many of the common activities on genres would be illegal, distasteful or just bizarre in the real world. But in the end it does boil down "this ain't the real world" for allot of things.

I'd love to see those articles if you could find them.

I was speaking not just with the consideration of facial recognition - but general forensics. Let's assume your character wants to be anonymous and isn't overtly stupid like not wearing mask. Take Spiderman. Full fask mask, body-suit, probably not going to leave a lot of evidence around unless he's getting into a knock-down drag out. So let's pretend for sake of discussion that doesn't happen normally (but it'll be a factor later).

I'm not saying that Spidey, a guy wearing a really overt costume, who goes around kicking the crap out of people (and takes pictures of himself while doing it to sell to the local papers) wouldn't immediately be caught - or discovered that he's Peter Parker... I'm making the claim that at *some* point not long after he gets on the radar a file will open on him somewhere in the city, and inevitable complaints by mom's who shitty sons got asswhipped by some dude in blue and red tights will mount.

At *some* point something will happen that will force the authorities to act because of the very nature of what being a vigilante is and what it might potentially inspire (see Batman). yeah you can handwave all this (at which point you're doing your Silver-Age 4-color homage), and after the big fight that levels a bank or so - next session everyone's happy and the bank is being rebuilt and you play golly-gee, it's a good thing Spiderman stopped the Rhino from robbing that bank! But if you want something a little closer to the Bronze... questions will be asked. If you go full Modern age - not only will questions be asked, Spiderman will get investigated (which makes for good roleplay). Who IS Spiderman. Basic analysis will pin the center of his web in Queens, and from there people in law-enforcement, perhaps good and bad will start adding to that file until a profile emerges. As to *what* anyone will do with that profile... is up to the GM depending on the game. But in modern day reality, I imagine you'd end up with a taskforce, and depending the circumstances and level of stuff being done - it might get kicked up to a Federal level. A couple of BIG knockdown-dragouts would have Peter leaving some DNA at some crime-scene and that would be fairly incriminating in its own right, but still not a deal-sealing in finding him.

On a Federal level... oh yeah, I can't IMAGINE Federal powers would be happy with metahumans running around. The general caveat to that is that as long as a superhero can resolve issues that the authorities can't - they remain in good standing heh.

Superman is too dangerous!!! - Until he diverts that comet that is about to end all life on this planet.
Spiderman killed my baby! - Until we find out that it was the Green Goblin's nerve agent that killed your kid and he had a tanker truck full of it heading into the water supply.etc.


But even that wouldn't stop dumbasses from trying to stop them - like in the Incredibles when that guy sues Mr. Incredible for ruining his death by saving his life. /facepalm. So brilliant.

More likely, the Feds would want you to join them for their own uses. Which is where the Magneto conundrum kicks in.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1027481My Golden Age supers campaign was really interesting in this respect.  It ran from the start of the Golden Age (1938) until the late 1940s.

At the start of the campaign, in keeping with the very early Golden Age, it was normal for the PC heroes to kill villains when necessary. But as the Golden Age moved on, the heroes (including the PCs) came to a general understanding that they should not kill.

Pundit- I recall a rant you did several years ago about superhero RPGs, and combined with this statement, tells me you 'get' superhero RPGs.  Golden Age comics had a whole lot of killing and dead bodies, despite what people think of it as the 'innocent' age of superheroes.  They are probably thinking of the Silver Age post-Wertham Comics Code Authority era.

The thing his critics hate, was the truth that Wertham pointed out. The fact that the comic book companies of the time kept ratcheting up the sex, the violence, and the straight up horror to pander to controversy. Wertham had valid points he was illustrating about a comics industry that was was out of control and rushing themselves toward self destruction. By pandering simply to a very narrow adult audience.

The problem still exists today. With even superhero comics pandering to a narrow adult audience now. It's history repeating. Because the comics industry did not learn its lessons the first time around.

The Comics Code Authority wasn't created by the US government. It was created by the comics industry itself to avoid government regulation.

Nobody knows what form the government regulation would have been. Yet the majority of the comics industry keeps pointing the blame at the government and Wertham. Instead of taking responsibility for their own continual rush to self destruction.

Tits, muscles, and gore sell funnybooks.

Part of it for me is also that after almost 63 years, after living through the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Civil Rights war, Vietnam, Watergate, the Cold War, Grenada, Panama, and a shitload of other stuff, my deepest feeling is "fuck moral ambiguity."  I get enough of that shit in real life.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1027808Part of it for me is also that after almost 63 years, after living through the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Civil Rights war, Vietnam, Watergate, the Cold War, Grenada, Panama, and a shitload of other stuff, my deepest feeling is "fuck moral ambiguity."  I get enough of that shit in real life.

Pretty much sums up my attitude about modern mainstream comics put out by the big publishers.

Quote from: tenbones;1027720Right. The reality is - depending on the powers of a metahuman - the ability to remain 1) anonymous or 2) free of moral ambiguity is virtually impossible.

You could mitigate #1 a lot in earlier history. In modernity, I'm afraid unless you have some seriously useful utility powers like shapechange or your powers are not overt, you'd be figured out eventually.

The real thing about Supers as a genre is the implicit notion that you as an individual have abilities that the rest of human society doesn't. It ignores the fact you may not even *be* human at all. It ignores that fact that your very perceptions and interactions with reality are radically different than the vast majority of the populace - but it assumes you're going to try to abide by the morality and ethics of these beings that in all likelihood are utterly inferior to you.

The real question is what conceits in considering these questions are you willing to allow in your game? The Incredibles gives it a solid nod, the Watchmen define it utterly. Magneto exemplifies one polar side of it, Captain America the other.

Without getting into the "Punch a Nazi thing" - (or maybe we should since this is squarely where it was co-opted) - Magneto makes a great case for this. He maintains he's *not* human. He's a different species entirely. And he thinks that his species is not beholden to the dangers that pose his kind from what he considers an inferior species. And he acts accordingly. His origin is a powerful statement to his beliefs. What would *not* justify Magneto going ham on Nazis in a WWII era super-hero game? Would he not, in fact, be a hero? Or would you say he's something else? Granted his views about Mutantkind (Homo Superior in his parlance) wasn't fully developed. Justapose that concept of what if he did have that idea while being a war-camp prisoner when his powers manifested? Then imagine if while in the throes of meeting out that justice - Captain America showed up.

I think one of the things the genre gets wrong in gaming is not adherence to this morality code which largely was being enforced in the content by exterior forces that came to define various periods of comic history, but that these games don't enforce that in-game reality with its own conceits.

There is a HUGE difference if super-humans start from a starting point of cultural positivity like in DC where they do a lot of hero-worship, than starting with a bit of fear and skepticism and more real-world issues like Marvel. It's a balancing act that most games either ignore, or use really punishing mechanics that gorilla-fist the rules to justify the conceits.

I think you can have your cake and eat it too - you just have to clearly define those bars and it isn't easy. What keeps Superman from killing bad guys? *Nothing* keeps him from doing it other than his own code which extols some very human rights, given the crap hes had to put up with, probably makes him a much more complex person to moral relativists. Batman once got Superman's powered and was horrified. Because he realized exactly how powerful Superman was - and didn't do everything he could to "fix things". So when Batman did - of course he became the super-tyrant.

I dunno... it's kinda fun to juxtapose those things in theory - even in game. Like imagine Spiderman telling Superman "With great power comes great responsibility." hehehe.

Quote from: tenbones;1027735I'd love to see those articles if you could find them.

I was speaking not just with the consideration of facial recognition - but general forensics. Let's assume your character wants to be anonymous and isn't overtly stupid like not wearing mask. Take Spiderman. Full fask mask, body-suit, probably not going to leave a lot of evidence around unless he's getting into a knock-down drag out. So let's pretend for sake of discussion that doesn't happen normally (but it'll be a factor later).

I'm not saying that Spidey, a guy wearing a really overt costume, who goes around kicking the crap out of people (and takes pictures of himself while doing it to sell to the local papers) wouldn't immediately be caught - or discovered that he's Peter Parker... I'm making the claim that at *some* point not long after he gets on the radar a file will open on him somewhere in the city, and inevitable complaints by mom's who shitty sons got asswhipped by some dude in blue and red tights will mount.

At *some* point something will happen that will force the authorities to act because of the very nature of what being a vigilante is and what it might potentially inspire (see Batman). yeah you can handwave all this (at which point you're doing your Silver-Age 4-color homage), and after the big fight that levels a bank or so - next session everyone's happy and the bank is being rebuilt and you play golly-gee, it's a good thing Spiderman stopped the Rhino from robbing that bank! But if you want something a little closer to the Bronze... questions will be asked. If you go full Modern age - not only will questions be asked, Spiderman will get investigated (which makes for good roleplay). Who IS Spiderman. Basic analysis will pin the center of his web in Queens, and from there people in law-enforcement, perhaps good and bad will start adding to that file until a profile emerges. As to *what* anyone will do with that profile... is up to the GM depending on the game. But in modern day reality, I imagine you'd end up with a taskforce, and depending the circumstances and level of stuff being done - it might get kicked up to a Federal level. A couple of BIG knockdown-dragouts would have Peter leaving some DNA at some crime-scene and that would be fairly incriminating in its own right, but still not a deal-sealing in finding him.

On a Federal level... oh yeah, I can't IMAGINE Federal powers would be happy with metahumans running around. The general caveat to that is that as long as a superhero can resolve issues that the authorities can't - they remain in good standing heh.

Superman is too dangerous!!! - Until he diverts that comet that is about to end all life on this planet.
Spiderman killed my baby! - Until we find out that it was the Green Goblin's nerve agent that killed your kid and he had a tanker truck full of it heading into the water supply.etc.


But even that wouldn't stop dumbasses from trying to stop them - like in the Incredibles when that guy sues Mr. Incredible for ruining his death by saving his life. /facepalm. So brilliant.

More likely, the Feds would want you to join them for their own uses. Which is where the Magneto conundrum kicks in.

OK, tenbones, what do I have to do to persuade you to run this kind of supers game for me in PbP:)? Because you most certainly "get" what kind of supers game I'd like to play...
But I haven't found many of those;).

Going on a kind of tangent, everyone has their own taste in comics, but when I read a comic where such consequences are absent, I feel like I'm watching an RPG session with a heavily fudging railroady GM. Like, yeah, those consequences should be there, but the GM has only prepared fighting other supers, so he ignores them, and makes sure the main character wins as long as said character plays up to his or her ideas of how supers should work.
That was the main reason why I didn't like supers, until I learned that not all supers comics ignore that kind of stuff:D.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1027799The thing his critics hate, was the truth that Wertham pointed out. The fact that the comic book companies of the time kept ratcheting up the sex, the violence, and the straight up horror to pander to controversy.

Yeah, comics of that era were great!

Leave it to Wertham and we'd all be stuck reading Archie.

Quote from: Simlasa;1027909Yeah, comics of that era were great!

Leave it to Wertham and we'd all be stuck reading Archie.

False nostalgia. The comics of that age were selling at their lowest point in the history of the medium.

The deathblow came from the Comics Code. Which was created largely by National Comics. Which outright banned the few genres that were still selling.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1027984False nostalgia. The comics of that age were selling at their lowest point in the history of the medium.

What does the rate of sales got to do with me liking what I like? I never saw those older comics till reprints, though I did grow up on 'underground comics' my uncle snuck me... no stinking Comics Code there either.

Quote from: AsenRG;1027884OK, tenbones, what do I have to do to persuade you to run this kind of supers game for me in PbP:)? Because you most certainly "get" what kind of supers game I'd like to play...
But I haven't found many of those;).

Alas I'm super busy with my weekly and I'm working on a grueling writing project in my very little spare time (and this is aside from my day job, family shit, my online gaming stuff I'm deep in - blah blah). Not sure I could do a PbP game too. But it's worth mulling over for the future! I love Supers precisely for the reasons that a it can be a flexible genre that really lets players go hog-wild doing things they could never do in other genres. My experiences with comics as both a fan and collector (the only thing i've done longer than RPGs) allow me to be super flexible in how I approach my games. I've turned all my players into fans where before they were ambivalent at best.

Quote from: AsenRG;1027884Going on a kind of tangent, everyone has their own taste in comics, but when I read a comic where such consequences are absent, I feel like I'm watching an RPG session with a heavily fudging railroady GM. Like, yeah, those consequences should be there, but the GM has only prepared fighting other supers, so he ignores them, and makes sure the main character wins as long as said character plays up to his or her ideas of how supers should work.
That was the main reason why I didn't like supers, until I learned that not all supers comics ignore that kind of stuff:D.

I don't think that's a tangent - I think it's directly pertinent to the question of the thread. Killing in comics *is* a choice for both the Players and the conceits of the campaign as laid down (hopefully) by the GM for the exact reasons you specified. I treat my supers games with the same "world in motion" mentality that I do my other games - with a few different nobs and whistles.

For instance if I'm doing a DC-"style" game - metahumans are generally looked upon favorably by the authorities until proven otherwise. This is not to say that they don't have concerns, but methods matter, as do outcomes. There are dispensations depending on how things happen. My Marvel-style games are a little closer to reality. The government fears and mistrusts metas until situations occur, usually as a reaction to circumstances the government simply can't contend with *without* metas. This establishes the various raisons d'être for metahumans to "do their thing". Part of the fun for me is establishing those relationships within the campaign - the conflict of authority that inevitably has to bow before the simple fact that Superheroes are Gods among men, and there are some situations that are simply larger than normal people can handle.

And I'm not speaking simply from a power-angle. I'm speaking metaphorically that the goal should be for Supers to be transcendent despite what authorities want. It has nothing to do with super-powers. Nowhere is this concept better exemplified than in The Dark Knight Returns when the incoming police commissioner Ellen Yindel confronts Jim Gordon about Batman. They put that scene in the animated movie.

https://youtu.be/3L4qYkzcsPE

I felt the comic was more sombre, but the point remains the same. Supers are larger than life. It's important for the GM to ratchet that tension and allow players to exult in that power, but also make them realize their very presence invites conflict on many levels that affects many aspects of their lives and their presence impacts the lives of many people. Both good and bad. And let the chips fall where they may.

Or you know you can go Silver Age and do stuff like this...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2278[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Simlasa;1027988What does the rate of sales got to do with me liking what I like? I never saw those older comics till reprints, though I did grow up on 'underground comics' my uncle snuck me... no stinking Comics Code there either.

And that's why you got corrupted and turned into the perv you are today!