Quote from: HorusArisen;966682I always liked CJ Carellas Witchcraft. As Goth games went it was a darn site better than eyeliner and velvet that was WoD (Mage & Changeling being the exception because I like those )

Back to pure subjectivity again then.

Absolutely. Just because I liked it doesn't mean you will.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;966880Back to pure subjectivity again then.

And you aren't? If everyone is completely neutral it would be a dull discussion.

Quote from: Baulderstone;966471I actually liked decoupling the political and power splats. It's just that power splats felt limited and arbitrary. There weren't that many of them, and the ones that were there didn't click for me. Super strength, speed and charisma worked for me with Brujah because those all are vampire traits. With the Daeva, it just didn't fit with any kind of mage archetype cleanly, and most of the splats failed to evoke any kind of mage archetype, and it didn't do a good enough job of selling me on a new archetype.

I'd contrast it with Unknown Armies which had very unconventional magic users like dipsomancers (that build up magical charges by getting drunk) and entropomancers (who build up charges by taking risks). Those were weird, but I was instantly able to wrap my head around them and how to play them. The splats in Mage felt murky and unappealing.

I think the Mage Chronicler's Guide added that in the form of "magical traditions," which had such things as performing spells by brawling or reciting Marxist propaganda. This should have been present from the beginning, when it could have made a difference, rather than added so late in the life cycle of 1e.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;966643How so? It's just more restrictive ultimately, as it deals more in stereotypes. I have similar criticism of Apocalypse World games, which some argue is the pinnacle of game design these days: it's a class-based system with very limited game play variation. For what it does, fine, but it doesn't actually replicate the immersive design qualities of the World of Darkness games, regardless of how tidy the mechanical game play is.

I found World of Darkness extremely restrictive. All vampires follow the same basic rules, loosely inspired by Anne Rice's books, with only disciplines and clan weaknesses and obscure merits/flaws for customization. The discipline mechanics are extremely narrow in application rather than broad enough to emulate whatever popular fiction you'd care to name and many classic powers are completely overlooked.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;966930I found World of Darkness extremely restrictive. All vampires follow the same basic rules, loosely inspired by Anne Rice's books, with only disciplines and clan weaknesses and obscure merits/flaws for customization. The discipline mechanics are extremely narrow in application rather than broad enough to emulate whatever popular fiction you'd care to name and many classic powers are completely overlooked.

Same here, really.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;966886And you aren't? If everyone is completely neutral it would be a dull discussion.

The point I was objecting too, was that people were categorising one system as being superior to another as some sort of objective truth. If you accept that it is a subjective point of view, then you are accepting my argument.

And that goes for everybody else who responded on this thread in kind.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;966376Because your judgement about the design of games is in error?

Yeah, pretty much.  WoD games aren't Storygames nor do they include a high degree of narrative mechanics.  Except for Wraith, where you can play Shadows, and a personality/morality mechanic in some lines, WoD has always been pretty traditional until recently.  BoxCrayonTales generally doesn't prefer that type of design.

Quote from: Omega;964997Why would they object?

That's what they do.  They get self-righteously indignant and object.  If there's nothing to object to, they make something up.

Quote from: Omega;964997Why would they object?

If I had to take a guess because they don't like who's writing it?

Quote from: Nexus;967268If I had to take a guess because they don't like who's writing it?

Actually, the problem, judging from the TBP thread, seems to be the exact opposite. A lot of the people there do like Ken Hite, and feel torn between admiration for him and anger and distrust towards the new White Wolf and their plans for V5.

(I like Hite's work a lot, but not enough to overcome my lack of any serious interest in the WoD.)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;967270Actually, the problem, judging from the TBP thread, seems to be the exact opposite. A lot of the people there do like Ken Hite, and feel torn between admiration for him and anger and distrust towards the new White Wolf and their plans for V5.

Not the impression I received from the thread but I admit that I didn't get far into it and mileage will vary.

I like Ken, but I liked Ken from his Nightmares of Mine and Suppressed Transmission days. But a man has to eat.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967207Yeah, pretty much.  WoD games aren't Storygames nor do they include a high degree of narrative mechanics.  Except for Wraith, where you can play Shadows, and a personality/morality mechanic in some lines, WoD has always been pretty traditional until recently.  

Exactly. The mechanics for WoD were designed by Tom Dowd who worked on Shadowrun, and it is basically the same system with d10s instead of exploding d6s. If Vampire:the Masquerade is a story game, then so is Shadowrun.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;967272I like Ken, but I liked Ken from his Nightmares of Mine and Suppressed Transmission days. But a man has to eat.

That's my feeling. The guy is actually full-time, professional game designer. That isn't the kind of job description where you can afford to turn down job offers, especially from a company that can credibly pay you what they are offering.

If there is someone who can do it it's probably him. I hope he comes up with some decent mechanics and with some practical GM's advice. I always wondered why there isn't any info about what kind of political conflicts you can have, who your opponent could be, what your opponent wants and why. Preferably in a random table.

White Wolf always has the habit to explore certain concepts in an essay like manner with a big block of text. That isn't working for me. In Demon the Descent for example they explore the concepts of paranoia and ethics in a spy game. Interesting, but no idea what to do with it. I would rather have a random mission generator like that in Covert Ops or Agents of Oblivion to come up with ideas for a quest. I hope they break that tradition now.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;967358I hope they break that tradition now.

I would advise you not to hold your breath, just in case;).