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Author Topic: Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire  (Read 41296 times)

Bedrockbrendan

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2017, 07:44:31 AM »
Quote from: TrippyHippy;962009
His writing isn't particularly politicised as such, but one of his games made reference to 'Bush's War', which somebody on the right objected to somewhere in a review or some such. The publisher then responded that Hite was a 'staunch Republican' IIRC, and I think the label stuck with some on the left. Probably not the best idea to make personal politics public, I guess.


Kenneth Hite's problem is he is a fully matured adult capable of separating his personal politics from the content of his entertainment and games. That and he once used the female pronoun in a book. Talk about an asshole.

Starglyte

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2017, 08:53:09 AM »
Now I am interested in the new Vampire. I will give it a look instead of just ignoring it like I was planning on doing.

AaronBrown99

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2017, 09:46:36 AM »
He used 'she' as the default pronoun in at least one book, jarring the the flow of the text and causing his writing to lack clarity and precision. Some RPG buyers don't appreciate that kind of progressive 'point scoring', and won't buy or play games like that.
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Future Villain Band

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2017, 09:56:17 AM »
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;962023
I think most of that stuff got reprinted in GURPS Horror 3E and 4E, which is good, because the original Nightmares of Mine is hard to find nowadays. (I found a copy at Half Price Books in May 2000. Got it signed by Hite in November 2007. No, you can't have it. :) )


I've still got my copy, although I'd kill for a copy of ICE's "...And a 10' Pole" from that era.  /Kill./

Bedrockbrendan

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2017, 10:13:26 AM »
Quote from: AaronBrown99;962093
He used 'she' as the default pronoun in at least one book, jarring the the flow of the text and causing his writing to lack clarity and precision. Some RPG buyers don't appreciate that kind of progressive 'point scoring', and won't buy or play games like that.

To me this makes as much sense as people who don't buy RPGs because they think the writer is too conservative, the content isn't sufficiently progressive or said something they didn't like. But either way, he was just one person at the company. They probably had a style guide and he was following it.

Caesar Slaad

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2017, 10:14:13 AM »
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962048

Funny you mention this, because it was in one of those podcasts where he definitively stated that #Vampires are rapists, which means by his own admission he's working on a game where you play supernatural rapists!


Or, you know, they come up with another angle. I suspect that his involvement arose out of discussions that arose after he expressed his opinion on Vampire PCs and was contacted by the developer.

Whether what they come up with is satisfactory remains to be seen.

I think Ken Hite is a superlative game designer, but my confidence in VtM 5e being a worthwhile game is low, because it seems like a bit of a tough needle to thread. If they successfully grapple with the problems Ken H has with the concept of Vampire protagonists, it may be precisely the answer that will turn off historical fans of the game.
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JamesV

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2017, 10:30:25 AM »
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;962097
I think Ken Hite is a superlative game designer, but my confidence in VtM 5e being a worthwhile game is low, because it seems like a bit of a tough needle to thread. If they successfully grapple with the problems Ken H has with the concept of Vampire protagonists, it may be precisely the answer that will turn off historical fans of the game.

Good way to put it. VtM has never been a big deal for me, but if Ken found a way to make the game different enough to appeal to me, it might also alienate the much larger group of people who like the game in the first place and who I guess are looking for smaller variations.
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Future Villain Band

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2017, 10:34:32 AM »
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;962097

I think Ken Hite is a superlative game designer, but my confidence in VtM 5e being a worthwhile game is low, because it seems like a bit of a tough needle to thread.


I think this is the key -- he's a game designer.  Here's the thing -- if you paid me money, like real money, the kind of money a software company can pay, as opposed to what passes for wages in the TTRPG hobby, I'd write whatever the fuck you want.  I could /hate/ vampires, and if you paid me a decent salary, I would write huge paeans to their glory.  So I don't see what his personal feelings have to do with it in the long run.  I don't like D&D 5e, but if somebody was willing to pay me the ducats, I'd write whatever you want about it.

Caesar Slaad

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2017, 10:44:56 AM »
Quote from: Future Villain Band;962101
I think this is the key -- he's a game designer.  Here's the thing -- if you paid me money, like real money, the kind of money a software company can pay, as opposed to what passes for wages in the TTRPG hobby, I'd write whatever the fuck you want.  I could /hate/ vampires, and if you paid me a decent salary, I would write huge paeans to their glory.  So I don't see what his personal feelings have to do with it in the long run.  I don't like D&D 5e, but if somebody was willing to pay me the ducats, I'd write whatever you want about it.

While you are not wrong -- Ken has said as much on KaRTAS -- if there isn't a middle ground, the end result will be a game invested with Ken's well known fastidious historical/folkloric accuracy, but which will not deviate enough from the historical VtM formula to interest those like me who have never been one of the games' fans historically.

(Not that it has to be.)
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AaronBrown99

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2017, 10:52:38 AM »
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;962096
To me this makes as much sense as people who don't buy RPGs because they think the writer is too conservative, the content isn't sufficiently progressive or said something they didn't like. But either way, he was just one person at the company. They probably had a style guide and he was following it.

A given person's buying criteria doesn't have to make sense to you, it's an individual thing.

I did see the WW style guide in the late 90s, and it specifically called for using incorrect pronouns like that. Oh well.
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Baulderstone

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2017, 10:53:17 AM »
Quote from: TrippyHippy;962034
There is however, a general feedback that the various 20th Anniversary editions (which are pretty much the de facto 4th editions of each respective game, regardless of what the blurb says) is that the books are alienating to new audiences simply because the books are too big. Any attempt to make more accessible core books is not a bad thing in my view. White Wolf also cited the tagline "One World of Darkness' as a line goal - which implies making the game more international in scope whilst also removing the confusion of the Old/New WoD lines (which they have already done by way of having 'New World of Darkness' become 'Chronicles of Darkness' instead). The main money spinner of the IP is deemed to lie in online gaming and things like TV and movies, so there would be a drive towards integrating these things with a new edition of the game too.


The anniversary books certainly seem unfriendly to newcomers, and as someone the was only interested in the game during its very early stages, I have absolutely interest in Vampire with all the toppings included.

Quote
From my own perspective, I would like to see more stripped down core rule books again anyway. I'm a bit of a closet Old School Gamer, but my favourite editions of Vampire are still the earlier ones. The reason is nuanced: the original seven Clans actually reflected real world society - Brujah were left wing socialists and anarchists, Venture were right wing conservatives and the other Clans were all recognisable stereotypes of social strata that we see in real world politics. Because of this there was a degree of satirical content in the game ('You are the monsters!' - presenting how we look at different stratifications of society in a stereotyped and fearful way) that ascended a little above mere genre simulation. Recent editions added more Clans, which were poorly judged in some cases, and the game's more thoughtful aspects became more diluted into being a more generic game about playing vampires, with a heavy backstory and metaphor, than an observation on our own culture.  


I get what you are saying. The early supplements were about playing vampires in the real world. Characters in Chicago by Night were largely defined by the real world ideologies of the characters and the background of their human lives. As the line wore on, everything became defined by the insular terms of vampire society. "I'm playing an Antitribu Tzimisce Primogen." The real world began to fade out of the game and it became all about the Sabbat and Camarilla fighting each other.

Adding the Sabbat really did drain the focus of the game as well. It was more interesting when players were introduced into Camarilla society, with its delicate balance between the establishment and anarchs. It was a society on the brink of a revolution, and the players would have to pick a side and hope their side one once it broke out. It was a bleak setting, but it felt like the players were in a position to play a pivotal role. With the Sabbat added, suddenly you were playing in a game where the revolution happened 500 years ago, and was still happening. It was ongoing slog that made it easy to have your combat monster get into fights, but nothing felt consequential.

It also shifted the game from a local focus to a global one. When I ran Vampire for the first time 1991, I set the game in the place I was living. Early Vampire gave he sense that every city was a world unto itself. Having a single city, and one the players all knew, as the focus made the game seem more real, and it made the players matter a lot more. Once the game shifted to a world war between the Camarilla and the Sabbat, city politics became small potatoes.

You have a good point about the constant addition of new clans diluting the game. The original clans were all clear archetypes. The later ones were often flavorful, but didn't have a clear place in the game.

As I said earlier, I don't know if I am really interested in getting into vampire again anyway. I ran a very successful game of it in 1991-92 and it was all diminishing returns for me. It's possible though that having Hite back can renew my interest. Hite is fascinated by real world history and applying it to his games. He has a general lack of interest in games taking place in completely imaginary worlds. Personally, I like both, but the appeal of oWoD for me lay in having the fantastical going on in the real world. A WoD with Hite in charge seems unlikely to drift completely out of the real world and into its own imaginary conflicts. He seems like the right guy to deliver the WoD that I wanted 25 years ago. It's just a question of whether it is something I still want. [/QUOTE]

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962048
Funny you mention this, because it was in one of those podcasts where he definitively stated that #Vampires are rapists, which means by his own admission he's working on a game where you play supernatural rapists!

Really curious how he's going to square that away.


Why does he need to square it away? The fact that vampires preying humans was horrific was a central conceit of the game at the start. You need to feed on humans to sate your bloodlust so you don't get hungry, lose control and do even more horrific things. It was all spelled out pretty clearly.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;962055
Oh look, mechanized roleplaying, where the designers force a playstyle, rather than let it flow (or not) naturally.  Like the Humanity track worked SO WELL!


I agree the Humanity track/Frenzy mechanic never worked well, but I think it was just poorly calibrated, not a bad idea.

The idea behind it is just good, old-fashioned resource management. You build up your blood pool, and can choose to expend it to do cool things. If you expend it too far, you risk bad stuff happening. Players generally get into frenzy territory because they put themselves there. On the whole, it's not really much different than using a magic system where magical mishaps occur if the players get greedy. There is certainly more player control than in Call of Cthulhu where Sanity checks come at you out of nowhere.

I don't think the numbers and probabilities ever worked well to deliver the game they wanted, but I think it was a cool idea. It's just playing Stormbringer, with every player having their own Stormbringer. If you want its cool powers, you better keep that thing fed.

Ulairi
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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2017, 11:29:47 AM »
Future Villian Band is saying over on the big purple that we don't like Ken Hite because he used female pronouns. One nitwit said that. The rest of us are pretty supportive. But, good to throw the rest of us under the bus there man.


I'm going to buy two copies just to support Mr. Hite and to enjoy it being a success and pissing off all the right people.


Future Villain Band

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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2017, 11:46:18 AM »
Quote from: Ulairi;962111
Future Villian Band is saying over on the big purple that we don't like Ken Hite because he used female pronouns. One nitwit said that. The rest of us are pretty supportive. But, good to throw the rest of us under the bus there man.


I'm going to buy two copies just to support Mr. Hite and to enjoy it being a success and pissing off all the right people.
I was also complaining about their drama, and later I added that this thread had not devolved into those complaints anywhere near as much as the one on RPG.net.  (And it's been more than one person.)  My post is really about the fact that I'd really like is a forum where I could have a conversation about shit involving -- well, anything, at this point -- without having to hear either about how white guys are an endangered species due to SJW predation, or that all gamers are basement dwelling rapists and Klan members.  

I have not yet found that forum.  If somebody knows of it, and doesn't think I'll shit it up too much, I'd love to know if it's out there.  I mean, holy shit, does the constant identity politics get fucking old.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 11:54:22 AM by Future Villain Band »

Ulairi
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Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2017, 11:57:30 AM »
Quote from: Future Villain Band;962117
I was also complaining about their drama, and later I added that this thread had not devolved into those complaints anywhere near as much as the one on RPG.net.  (And it's been more than one person.)  My post is really about the fact that I'd really like is a forum where I could have a conversation about shit involving -- well, anything, at this point -- without having to hear either about how white guys are an endangered species due to SJW predation, or that all gamers are basement dwelling rapists and Klan members.  

I have not yet found that forum.  If somebody knows of it, and doesn't think I'll shit it up too much, I'd love to know if it's out there.  I mean, holy shit, does the constant identity politics get fucking old.



That's fair. I only see your first post.

Try http://www.rpgpub.com I think it will hit your sweet spot.