Quote from: jibbajibba;651578In James Bond which might have been one of the first systems to use them for minor narative control as well as improving success and reducing damage you earn them automatically when you made a rank 1 skill check so it also encouraged people to 'do'.

In my Heartbreaker you get a number at the start of the 'adventure' based on your Reputation. These get refreshed at the start of the next adventure (being defined as after a period of downtime - which my games rarely actually have )
The odd thing is that this means that low level characters that need them don't actually have many whereas higher level characters and those that 'do' more and so build up a rep get more.
I toyed with using them as a reward for usign the morality ruels I added at a players behest but dropped that idea in play as I felt it was unecessary.

Yea, I don't mind them as a resource, but I am very wary of 'good roleplay' 'Made a good joke' 'happened to do something the gm finds cool' 'played your alignment' etc... rewards.

Quote from: jibbajibba;651578In James Bond which might have been one of the first systems to use them for minor narative control as well as improving success and reducing damage you earn them automatically when you made a rank 1 skill check so it also encouraged people to 'do'.

In my Heartbreaker you get a number at the start of the 'adventure' based on your Reputation. These get refreshed at the start of the next adventure (being defined as after a period of downtime - which my games rarely actually have )
The odd thing is that this means that low level characters that need them don't actually have many whereas higher level characters and those that 'do' more and so build up a rep get more.
I toyed with using them as a reward for usign the morality ruels I added at a players behest but dropped that idea in play as I felt it was unecessary.

I am pretty okay with any method of the GM giving out karma points (the GM is human so I don't get bent out of shape if he doesn't hand me points but gives them to someone else). But I like that process to at least be connected to their reason for being in the game. I like the idea if them being tied to the morality of the system, particularly if they represent your good standing in the universe.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;651654I am pretty okay with any method of the GM giving out karma points (the GM is human so I don't get bent out of shape if he doesn't hand me points but gives them to someone else). But I like that process to at least be connected to their reason for being in the game. I like the idea if them being tied to the morality of the system, particularly if they represent your good standing in the universe.

For what its worth, I get bent out of shape when a gm gives ME a reward and not someone else.

Rewards that are doled out like doggie treats to players who do "kewl stuff" are fun for a one-off game but in campaign play they can end up reducing the whole game to players acting like performing monkeys trying to get a bananna.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;651666Rewards that are doled out like doggie treats to players who do "kewl stuff" are fun for a one-off game but in campaign play they can end up reducing the whole game to players acting like performing monkeys trying to get a bananna.

This isn't the only post, but I'm too lazy to quote last 2 pages:

This is more of a problem of "Playing the GM not the Game", rather than the reroll systems for the game.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;651349Any system that uses them.

Individual systems may succeed integrating them better than others.

However what is also important is how they are earned. Karma is earned through being super and heroic. These points dont' represent a direct causal link between skill and enhanced result, but a more thematic approach. This is not appropriate for every rpg, but it is for some. Buffy for instance mitigates the physically weaker white hats by giving them more narrative power. In this way Xander isn't eaten by the vamps each week. Conversely Buffy herself just kicks ass because she's a Slayer.

The purpose of X points isn't to stop pc's failing. it's to stop them failing when it would suck for them to do so.

Any rpg system is going to have the potential for a really promising effort to fall flat on its face. I don't see how you can mitigate that.

Whether you use that as part of the story is another matter.

The drama point mechanic in Buffy is brilliant, and helps the game emulate the source material. Buffy for me is proof that drama points are not necessarily the sign of a weak system.

There's lots of other examples of well implemented karma mechanics, but Buffy is just such a good example that when I opened the thread I just did a search to see who mentioned it first so I could quote them.

Quote from: Bill;651653Yea, I don't mind them as a resource, but I am very wary of 'good roleplay' 'Made a good joke' 'happened to do something the gm finds cool' 'played your alignment' etc... rewards.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that either. Good play is its own reward, it doesn't require a benny on top.

I hate them.  I consider them nothing more than legalized cheating.  More entitlement for those who can't seem to deal with the fact that dice are random.

Quote from: JRR;651841I hate them.  I consider them nothing more than legalized cheating.  More entitlement for those who can't seem to deal with the fact that dice are random.

To me, they're legalized cheating as well. But unlike you, that's why I love them.

Quote from: JRR;651841I hate them.  I consider them nothing more than legalized cheating.  More entitlement for those who can't seem to deal with the fact that dice are random.

It's how you use the random factor.

Points are used well when they are part of a system and emulate something that the game is trying to capture. I think the way Tenra Bansho Zero, which I will likely never play and am not an anime fan (it confuses and frightens me, except Akira), uses such things is really simple and clever.

On the other hand Fate points leave me on the fence, the same with the blatantly narrativistic 'dramatic editing' mechanics that got shoehorned into Adventure! by whitewolf.

Karma points are elegant and appropriate. They are just another aspect of the game. It's simplistic to say they are for self entitled (I love the way that word has become nasty these days) players who can't handle the dice. You still have to earn the points, which is another aspect of roleplaying.

Quote from: Grymbok;651356I just can't see "re-roll points" as being a part of a resolution system. They're just a do-over for when the resolution system produces results you don't like.

Nice arbitrary-line drawing. Another toss of the dice simply extends the tail of the curve with a multiple-dice spread.

If there's no reason to do that 99% of the time, why waste the effort?

If people have fun choosing when to use a finite resource, why privilege an approach that reduces the game further toward one that does not require players?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;651363These are merely tools to construct a somewhat different beast than a roleplaying game.

What planet are you from? Ever hear of Dungeons & Dragons by Arneson & Gygax? If the original is "not a roleplaying game," then your definition is the problem!

Try Hit Points for a start. "Oh," you will no doubt say, "but I don't get to choose between saving my skin by spending the points, or else pushing up daisies sooner." I say, So What? Seriously, if it's such a bug up your butt, the GM can take the points out of your hands. Getting your panties in a wad over someone else handling the points himself is childishly petty.

Fine, then. How about casting spells, wiz? "Oh," you will no doubt say, "but that's different because it's magic." And Joss is not? Magic's only magic if it's expressed in a techno-gadget way popular among prepubescent males in the USA in the 1980s?

Quote from: Bill;651653Yea, I don't mind them as a resource, but I am very wary of 'good roleplay' 'Made a good joke' 'happened to do something the gm finds cool' 'played your alignment' etc... rewards.

I don't use 'em when I GM, but I don't get bent out of shape when another fellow does. I don't care enough about the few percentiles of the XP total it amounts to in those cases.

Quote from: Bill;651651I detest with a passion, XP awards for "good roleplaying" by a GM.

Its one of the things that can actually make me angry

I hate that also. I like when it's set up more like 4E's/FantasyCraft's action points or Warhammer's fate points something that is hardwired into the system itself not an extra bennie on top of the system.

Quote from: Phillip;651952What planet are you from? Ever hear of Dungeons & Dragons by Arneson & Gygax? If the original is "not a roleplaying game," then your definition is the problem!

Try Hit Points for a start. "Oh," you will no doubt say, "but I don't get to choose between saving my skin by spending the points, or else pushing up daisies sooner." I say, So What? Seriously, if it's such a bug up your butt, the GM can take the points out of your hands. Getting your panties in a wad over someone else handling the points himself is childishly petty.

Fine, then. How about casting spells, wiz? "Oh," you will no doubt say, "but that's different because it's magic." And Joss is not? Magic's only magic if it's expressed in a techno-gadget way popular among prepubescent males in the USA in the 1980s?

There's no bug. I just happen to know the difference between roleplaying and storygaming. They are both fun activities provided the players are good. There is no reason one cannot enjoy both of them without getting all purple in the face at the mere suggestion that there are differerences in how they feel in play.