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Author Topic: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube  (Read 6959 times)

Mistwell

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2020, 09:51:00 PM »
It feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?



Why, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Naw man, it's because it's the easiest game to find others to play with, that's all. That doesn't make you brain dead. It just means that's the game you have the most access to in terms of a group to play with.

One of the groups I play with, all our players are highly intelligent. I've played with them for decades. We all have families now, and live in different states, and play online. There is simply zero chance I could get them to play a different game than D&D. D&D just has too many pre-loaded options which work with the online platforms we are used to. And...we love it. Why look for something else when we love what we already have? We've been playing 5e since the beta test in 2012.

Wow, I really struck a nerve there, didn't I?

No? You thought that was a rant or something?

Jeff, I'd love to play Traveler with you some day. It's not that I don't want to play other games. I just think some of you guys don't realize how lucky you are to have groups that are up for playing other stuff. Heck, just playing in person is hard to do these days...and I mean even pre-covid.

SHARK

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2020, 10:28:06 PM »
Greetings!

Hmmm...I think it just takes different kinds of people. What particular game they happen to like by itself isn't necessarily a reflection on their intelligence or intellectual abilities. I have some very intelligent friends, for example, that just aren't interested in playing any kind of roleplaying game. I have friends that love GURPS--but also enjoy Warhammer, and D&D. Other friends like Rolemaster, Warhammer, and D&D. Still others--perhaps most, I'd wager--strongly prefer D&D. Most of which prefer D&D 5E, though a few like AD&D. Currently, I would say 90% of people near me prefer D&D 5E. Accessibility, general popularity, positive exposure, ease of play--these are all absolutely enormous factors. Getting most people into some obscure game--or some forgotten game from decades ago that no one has heard about--just does not seem appealing to them in the slightest.

Accessibility has several factors as well. In two of my local game stores--which remain popular and huge centers for people to get together, play, and also look at games and buy stuff--D&D 5E is really the only game going. That's just the truth. Shelves and shelves of game books, mas, accessories devoted to D&D 5E, with *all* other game systems getting a half of shelf, maybe slightly more. They are entirely easily overlooked and dismissed.

People--not just the typical Grognard--but also cousins,kids, wives, girlfriends, girlfriends of your wives and girlfriends, and so on--they too, want to play what is *popular* and what everyone is talking about, and laughing, and all excited about. People are typically engaged in telling crazy fun stories about their D&D characters, playing D&D 5E--not some other indy, obscure game.

That's just the way it is.

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SHARK
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jeff37923

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2020, 12:56:20 AM »
It feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?



Why, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Naw man, it's because it's the easiest game to find others to play with, that's all. That doesn't make you brain dead. It just means that's the game you have the most access to in terms of a group to play with.

One of the groups I play with, all our players are highly intelligent. I've played with them for decades. We all have families now, and live in different states, and play online. There is simply zero chance I could get them to play a different game than D&D. D&D just has too many pre-loaded options which work with the online platforms we are used to. And...we love it. Why look for something else when we love what we already have? We've been playing 5e since the beta test in 2012.

Wow, I really struck a nerve there, didn't I?

No? You thought that was a rant or something?

Jeff, I'd love to play Traveler with you some day. It's not that I don't want to play other games. I just think some of you guys don't realize how lucky you are to have groups that are up for playing other stuff. Heck, just playing in person is hard to do these days...and I mean even pre-covid.

And yet playing any other game except those approved by the industry leader through Organized Play (the one you love to champion) does make it difficult for those who were introduced to gaming by D&D to see if there are other options out there. Admit it, there is a lot of pressure from WotC via Organized Play and the "community" to only play approved games like D&D (current edition) and MtG (current edition).
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TJS

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2020, 01:33:14 AM »
It feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?



Why, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Naw man, it's because it's the easiest game to find others to play with, that's all. That doesn't make you brain dead. It just means that's the game you have the most access to in terms of a group to play with.

One of the groups I play with, all our players are highly intelligent. I've played with them for decades. We all have families now, and live in different states, and play online. There is simply zero chance I could get them to play a different game than D&D. D&D just has too many pre-loaded options which work with the online platforms we are used to. And...we love it. Why look for something else when we love what we already have? We've been playing 5e since the beta test in 2012.

Wow, I really struck a nerve there, didn't I?

No? You thought that was a rant or something?

Jeff, I'd love to play Traveler with you some day. It's not that I don't want to play other games. I just think some of you guys don't realize how lucky you are to have groups that are up for playing other stuff. Heck, just playing in person is hard to do these days...and I mean even pre-covid.

And yet playing any other game except those approved by the industry leader through Organized Play (the one you love to champion) does make it difficult for those who were introduced to gaming by D&D to see if there are other options out there. Admit it, there is a lot of pressure from WotC via Organized Play and the "community" to only play approved games like D&D (current edition) and MtG (current edition).
The big move to increased VTT play over the past year has really made that clear.

If you don't play 5E you get little support from VTT features.  In fact, if you do play 5E, but houserule things, that will be enough to run into problems. 

And that's not taking into account all the other elements in VTT that encourage a narrowed playstyle.  They try to sell you features such as mapping features and dynamic lighting which require huge amounts of prep - but of course if you buy official adventure paths you get all that prep done for you.

It's a perfect circle for those with products to sell.  Encourage people to think that this incredibly time consuming way is how you run the game, then sell them extra products that do all the time consuming work for them.

theOutlander

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2020, 06:18:09 AM »
One of the big issues, I've found, is that people forget that things like order, chaos, good and evil are NOT just philosophical concepts in D&D/PF. They're actual universal forces as tangible as gravity.

But things like that establish that there is a cosmic balance in the universe, and progressives don't handle that well (it's the moral relativism issue).
The books aren't very good at explaining these concepts though. People have different and equally valid opinions on Wisdom, Alignment, HP and whatnot.

Sometimes I think if you have prior knowledge of fantasy and a vague understanding of the idea of fantasy adventuring or D&D, you'll be thrice as fine skipping all the text except the mechanical parts about chargen and player options. I mean, beginning with 3.5e, I've never cared about the importance of alignment and the "hardcoded" racial fluff, and I've never noticed many of the long (or recently) trodden issues . Probably because I always assumed that the game had to be played in more of a "generally makes sense in an adventure story" kind of way. When it hit me that the classes are just combat kits, encounters should be budgeted and um, actually there is a cosmology you have to adhere to, I found I was playing wrong.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2020, 08:42:45 AM »
One of the big issues, I've found, is that people forget that things like order, chaos, good and evil are NOT just philosophical concepts in D&D/PF. They're actual universal forces as tangible as gravity.

But things like that establish that there is a cosmic balance in the universe, and progressives don't handle that well (it's the moral relativism issue).
The books aren't very good at explaining these concepts though. People have different and equally valid opinions on Wisdom, Alignment, HP and whatnot.

Sometimes I think if you have prior knowledge of fantasy and a vague understanding of the idea of fantasy adventuring or D&D, you'll be thrice as fine skipping all the text except the mechanical parts about chargen and player options. I mean, beginning with 3.5e, I've never cared about the importance of alignment and the "hardcoded" racial fluff, and I've never noticed many of the long (or recently) trodden issues . Probably because I always assumed that the game had to be played in more of a "generally makes sense in an adventure story" kind of way. When it hit me that the classes are just combat kits, encounters should be budgeted and um, actually there is a cosmology you have to adhere to, I found I was playing wrong.
I think you might be conflating alignment with said moral/ethical forces. Alignment is how you behave, in theory. But the cosmic forces of good, evil, law, and chaos -- those are much more... abstract. We're not really equipped (nor are our PCs) to comprehend them except on tiny scales.

Also, bluntly put: if you're having fun, there is no 'playing wrong'. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to deploy things like house rules and whatnot. No set of mechanics can prepare for every eventuality. You may find yourself in conflict with other players and DMs who interpret things more strictly, but... who gives a shit?

theOutlander

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2020, 09:28:09 AM »
I think you might be conflating alignment with said moral/ethical forces. Alignment is how you behave, in theory. But the cosmic forces of good, evil, law, and chaos -- those are much more... abstract. We're not really equipped (nor are our PCs) to comprehend them except on tiny scales.
I know, my point is that these things are clearly not defined and understood unequivocally, so people still argue about what is what. DCC explicitly states that alignment is only about cosmic scales, not if your PC is a chaotic nutjob.

Also, bluntly put: if you're having fun, there is no 'playing wrong'. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to deploy things like house rules and whatnot. No set of mechanics can prepare for every eventuality. You may find yourself in conflict with other players and DMs who interpret things more strictly, but... who gives a shit?
Well, of course! I was indulging myself here, but the message was that many concepts in D&D are applicable/valid/(mis)understood only in the context of D&D and if you're not conditioned enough, you may not even get what all the fuss is about. I mean, grey morality, philosophical complexity and nature vs nurture in fantasy are ideas older than WotC itself, albeit brought recently as a new and exciting way to spice up your campaign. Which for me has the same value of telling me that spell fluff can be personalized.

RandyB

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2020, 10:31:08 AM »

The big move to increased VTT play over the past year has really made that clear.

If you don't play 5E you get little support from VTT features.  In fact, if you do play 5E, but houserule things, that will be enough to run into problems. 

And that's not taking into account all the other elements in VTT that encourage a narrowed playstyle.  They try to sell you features such as mapping features and dynamic lighting which require huge amounts of prep - but of course if you buy official adventure paths you get all that prep done for you.

It's a perfect circle for those with products to sell.  Encourage people to think that this incredibly time consuming way is how you run the game, then sell them extra products that do all the time consuming work for them.

Info, not counterargument: I know of an active project to get ACKS on Foundry.

For the most part, though, Official 5E is the high-visibility game on the VTT systems.

Mistwell

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2020, 12:59:32 PM »
It feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?



Why, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Naw man, it's because it's the easiest game to find others to play with, that's all. That doesn't make you brain dead. It just means that's the game you have the most access to in terms of a group to play with.

One of the groups I play with, all our players are highly intelligent. I've played with them for decades. We all have families now, and live in different states, and play online. There is simply zero chance I could get them to play a different game than D&D. D&D just has too many pre-loaded options which work with the online platforms we are used to. And...we love it. Why look for something else when we love what we already have? We've been playing 5e since the beta test in 2012.

Wow, I really struck a nerve there, didn't I?

No? You thought that was a rant or something?

Jeff, I'd love to play Traveler with you some day. It's not that I don't want to play other games. I just think some of you guys don't realize how lucky you are to have groups that are up for playing other stuff. Heck, just playing in person is hard to do these days...and I mean even pre-covid.

And yet playing any other game except those approved by the industry leader through Organized Play (the one you love to champion) does make it difficult for those who were introduced to gaming by D&D to see if there are other options out there. Admit it, there is a lot of pressure from WotC via Organized Play and the "community" to only play approved games like D&D (current edition) and MtG (current edition).

I guess? None of my groups are even exposed to organized play. Heck, some of the players in one of my groups have no game store in reasonable driving distance of their house. But, that's just the couple of groups I game with. I've played organized play before (starting way back with the RPGA, and a few years ago with WOTC's organized play in a game store). But it's never been a primary gaming source for me, and is not something I do these days (and was not doing for the couple years prior to Covid).

But sure I suppose WOTC sponsoring thousands of games in game stores is influence on people playing D&D. Pretty sure that's the point of them sponsoring it? Is that a reflection of the intelligence of the players playing in those games though? On the whole I've found even new D&D players who find the game through organized play remain above average in intelligence.  Not that I find intelligence a particularly important thing in life, but the game still is attracting the kids who are relatively smart.

moonsweeper

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2020, 01:34:47 PM »
But sure I suppose WOTC sponsoring thousands of games in game stores is influence on people playing D&D. Pretty sure that's the point of them sponsoring it? Is that a reflection of the intelligence of the players playing in those games though? On the whole I've found even new D&D players who find the game through organized play remain above average in intelligence.  Not that I find intelligence a particularly important thing in life, but the game still is attracting the kids who are relatively smart.

I think Jeff was referring more to the accounts of WOTC 'representatives' actively suppressing public playing of other games, not just promoting their own.  I believe he mentioned some instances a couple of years ago and I have heard other people say it as well. 

Myself, I avoid organized play like the plague so I don't have any first hand knowledge myself.
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Ghostmaker

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2020, 01:46:58 PM »
I think Jeff was referring more to the accounts of WOTC 'representatives' actively suppressing public playing of other games, not just promoting their own.  I believe he mentioned some instances a couple of years ago and I have heard other people say it as well. 

Myself, I avoid organized play like the plague so I don't have any first hand knowledge myself.
I admit, I've never seen that happen in the FLGS's I frequent. The closest thing I've ever heard of to that was some bitching because Games Workshop wouldn't allow discussion of other games in their stores (which is still moronic).


Mistwell

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2020, 04:07:48 PM »
But sure I suppose WOTC sponsoring thousands of games in game stores is influence on people playing D&D. Pretty sure that's the point of them sponsoring it? Is that a reflection of the intelligence of the players playing in those games though? On the whole I've found even new D&D players who find the game through organized play remain above average in intelligence.  Not that I find intelligence a particularly important thing in life, but the game still is attracting the kids who are relatively smart.

I think Jeff was referring more to the accounts of WOTC 'representatives' actively suppressing public playing of other games, not just promoting their own.  I believe he mentioned some instances a couple of years ago and I have heard other people say it as well. 

Myself, I avoid organized play like the plague so I don't have any first hand knowledge myself.

Oh I must have missed that conversation. If that's happening, obviously it's fucked up and should be challenged, and any store doing it should be discussed here.

HappyDaze

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2020, 04:42:10 PM »
But sure I suppose WOTC sponsoring thousands of games in game stores is influence on people playing D&D. Pretty sure that's the point of them sponsoring it? Is that a reflection of the intelligence of the players playing in those games though? On the whole I've found even new D&D players who find the game through organized play remain above average in intelligence.  Not that I find intelligence a particularly important thing in life, but the game still is attracting the kids who are relatively smart.

I think Jeff was referring more to the accounts of WOTC 'representatives' actively suppressing public playing of other games, not just promoting their own.  I believe he mentioned some instances a couple of years ago and I have heard other people say it as well. 

Myself, I avoid organized play like the plague so I don't have any first hand knowledge myself.

Oh I must have missed that conversation. If that's happening, obviously it's fucked up and should be challenged, and any store doing it should be discussed here.
IIRC, it was a situation where jeffy got his table space bumped because the organized play people had numbers and likely brought in way more sales. I'm sure jeffy's winning personality helped cinch the deal on putting his ass in the corner.

jeff37923

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2020, 06:33:21 PM »
But sure I suppose WOTC sponsoring thousands of games in game stores is influence on people playing D&D. Pretty sure that's the point of them sponsoring it? Is that a reflection of the intelligence of the players playing in those games though? On the whole I've found even new D&D players who find the game through organized play remain above average in intelligence.  Not that I find intelligence a particularly important thing in life, but the game still is attracting the kids who are relatively smart.

I think Jeff was referring more to the accounts of WOTC 'representatives' actively suppressing public playing of other games, not just promoting their own.  I believe he mentioned some instances a couple of years ago and I have heard other people say it as well. 

Myself, I avoid organized play like the plague so I don't have any first hand knowledge myself.

Oh I must have missed that conversation. If that's happening, obviously it's fucked up and should be challenged, and any store doing it should be discussed here.
IIRC, it was a situation where jeffy got his table space bumped because the organized play people had numbers and likely brought in way more sales. I'm sure jeffy's winning personality helped cinch the deal on putting his ass in the corner.

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RPGPundit

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Re: Just saw a flipthrough of Tasha's big bucket of unearthed arcana on youtube
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2020, 08:32:44 PM »
I won't go in more detail because I don't have time and will just continue to rant, but it seems this book solidifies my feelings that wotc and the 5e mass marked are locked in a cycle of regression. There is rampant churning and spoon-feeding of "player options" and half-baked rules that consist of a weak random table and a paragraph or two. And it seems that people crave for that stuff like it's the next ten commandments. I won't be surprised if some years from now, on a table somewhere, players are going through the books to see if it's allowed to have a house cat as a familiar.
Ha.  Yes.  It's like watching an old friend slowly fall of the wagon after their hard fought recovery.  Thing like subclass bloat, loosening of race design, reprinting old material as stealth errata.  It's taken them a while and it's been happening in slow motion but more and more of the mentality of 4E has been creeping back in.

They've apparently lost interest in the short rest design from the core book and now almost everything is a daily (long rest) resource.  The idea of leaving things up to the DM has apparently been forgotten (hence the errata) and then the sage advice rulings clarifying their errata.

Yup. This book is really a reversal of the policy that I specifically talked through with Mike Mearls when 5e was being created.
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