TheRPGSite

... and recalling many MANY comments on the internet hyped to the roof about the new "options", I get to wonder - has the 5e crowd gotten brain dead or something?

The book has some new sub-classes (pulled from UA), magic tattoos (oh boy, more spell-like character features), magic items, group patrons, making spells personalized, and some more. Apart from the content copy/pasted from unearthed arcana, most of the new guidelines is just stuff we've used to make up on our own. Like the spell customization - visually your magic missile can be a bunch of chickens now (omg, how cool and nouveau is that?!).

I won't go in more detail because I don't have time and will just continue to rant, but it seems this book solidifies my feelings that wotc and the 5e mass marked are locked in a cycle of regression. There is rampant churning and spoon-feeding of "player options" and half-baked rules that consist of a weak random table and a paragraph or two. And it seems that people crave for that stuff like it's the next ten commandments. I won't be surprised if some years from now, on a table somewhere, players are going through the books to see if it's allowed to have a house cat as a familiar.

You're not wrong. Some of this stuff is just silly. The spell customization in particular makes me snort, because I've had a policy that spells (at least in D&D) always have SOME level of variance from caster to caster. Spellcraft and arcana checks are just able to determine the common aspects from spell to spell and identify them.

Quote from: theOutlander on November 18, 2020, 04:28:37 AM
- visually your magic missile can be a bunch of ethnically and genderally diverse chickens now (omg, how cool and nouveau is that?!).

Fixed that for you.

I like the book and I got it in the mail yesterday.

It's mostly the new subclasses I like, and the magic items.

Of course the subclasses were first introduced in UA - that is the entire purpose of UA. They're not the same as the UA versions because they used feedback they received from the UA surveys to tweak them to be better. Which was the point. UA isn't Dragon Magazine, it's the beta testing.

The magic items are both interesting and fill some gaps that existed in the game. I am very pleased with those.

Adapting spells to your tastes is what, a few paragraphs? Who cares. It's just a reminder to new players they should do that, and some examples. Remember, 5e is a majority NEW PLAYERS these days. Because it's been such a massive seller. This book by the way is in the top 10 of all books being sold on Amazon (it's the #4 best selling book in the nation as I type this). Us as old players have always done this, but new players might not even have thought of it yet.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 18, 2020, 07:59:57 AM
You're not wrong. Some of this stuff is just silly. The spell customization in particular makes me snort, because I've had a policy that spells (at least in D&D) always have SOME level of variance from caster to caster. Spellcraft and arcana checks are just able to determine the common aspects from spell to spell and identify them.

Yeah, my game system handled that with a one paragraph on "Signature Spells." It also meant I didn't need to waste a bunch of page count on fluff text descriptions either (just need flavorful names) so it's absolutely a win-win.

Quote from: Mistwell on November 18, 2020, 10:20:29 AM
I like the book and I got it in the mail yesterday.

I'm generalizing a bit, so no offense.

Quote from: Mistwell on November 18, 2020, 10:20:29 AM
It's mostly the new subclasses I like, and the magic items.

Both of which I'm fed up with, but that's personal opinion.

Quote from: Mistwell on November 18, 2020, 10:20:29 AM
Of course the subclasses were first introduced in UA - that is the entire purpose of UA. They're not the same as the UA versions because they used feedback they received from the UA surveys to tweak them to be better. Which was the point. UA isn't Dragon Magazine, it's the beta testing.

Yeah, I'm not that against reprints, just have a really, really "meh" stance towards them.

Quote from: Mistwell on November 18, 2020, 10:20:29 AM
The magic items are both interesting and fill some gaps that existed in the game. I am very pleased with those.

Which implies there is a mechanical void that needs to be filled with WOTCCC (WOTC Certified Content, TM). And this is where shit hits the fan, because it seems it's the default view of the 5e player (again, generally it seems).

Quote from: Mistwell on November 18, 2020, 10:20:29 AM
Adapting spells to your tastes is what, a few paragraphs? Who cares. It's just a reminder to new players they should do that, and some examples. Remember, 5e is a majority NEW PLAYERS these days. Because it's been such a massive seller. This book by the way is in the top 10 of all books being sold on Amazon (it's the #4 best selling book in the nation as I type this). Us as old players have always done this, but new players might not even have thought of it yet.

I bet it's because of the racial bonuses and the hype circlejerk. I really can't find anything useful in there except more of the same stuff. And the constant friendly reminder that "btw you can to X in the game!" is indeed dumbing down the populace. I mean, yes, everyone needs some advice when starting with the hobby, but it becomes silly (and far too overdue, like... 6 years overdue) at this point and furthermore WOTC contradict themselves by stating that you should have creativity, but at the same time you shoud "BUY THIS BOOK WHERE WE RESKINNED SOME STUFF AND SAID OBVIOUS THINGS THAT PEOPLE ON YOUTUBE DO 2h+ VIDEOS ABOUT". Ok, I got carried a bit here, but spell customization is really low ball, you know it. And is just the tip of the iceberg.

Anyway, my point (or rather two points) is that too many options stifle creativity and WOTC are cheesing it at this point.

Dont have it yet and on the fence as to wether or not to get it considering WOTCs antics lately.

But something to keep in mind. This stuff is playtested. Im one of those playtesters and what ends up in a book is the end result of feedback from playtesters. Hence why the artificer class got a complete overhaul TWICE!

Also alot of the stuff in these books are things the players asked for.

Its the same as in the TSR era. Alot of the things people complain about are in fact things players asked for and/or submitted.

Quote from: theOutlander on November 18, 2020, 04:28:37 AM
I won't go in more detail because I don't have time and will just continue to rant, but it seems this book solidifies my feelings that wotc and the 5e mass marked are locked in a cycle of regression. There is rampant churning and spoon-feeding of "player options" and half-baked rules that consist of a weak random table and a paragraph or two. And it seems that people crave for that stuff like it's the next ten commandments. I won't be surprised if some years from now, on a table somewhere, players are going through the books to see if it's allowed to have a house cat as a familiar.

Ha.  Yes.  It's like watching an old friend slowly fall of the wagon after their hard fought recovery.  Thing like subclass bloat, loosening of race design, reprinting old material as stealth errata.  It's taken them a while and it's been happening in slow motion but more and more of the mentality of 4E has been creeping back in.

They've apparently lost interest in the short rest design from the core book and now almost everything is a daily (long rest) resource.  The idea of leaving things up to the DM has apparently been forgotten (hence the errata) and then the sage advice rulings clarifying their errata.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 18, 2020, 07:59:57 AM
You're not wrong. Some of this stuff is just silly. The spell customization in particular makes me snort, because I've had a policy that spells (at least in D&D) always have SOME level of variance from caster to caster. Spellcraft and arcana checks are just able to determine the common aspects from spell to spell and identify them.

You're right, it's a very old concept. I remember that spell "personalization" already was in Gaz 3: The Principalities of Glantri. Maybe is even  older than that.

Also, about subclasses: I remember the chaos that "kits" brought to AD&D 2nd. Fighter kits were ok, bard one were...no comment. I guess that is the usual splatbook degeneration cycle.
A big: No, thanks.

If I start something with 5e, I'm going to outlaw everything outside corebooks and also dragonborn and tiefling.
The Pundit in a video suggested that one should only play humans. He's got a point, but I'm such a sucker for dwarves that I'm keeping the core classes.

Quote from: Murphy78 on November 19, 2020, 05:50:42 AM
If I start something with 5e, I'm going to outlaw everything outside corebooks and also dragonborn and tiefling.
The Pundit in a video suggested that one should only play humans. He's got a point, but I'm such a sucker for dwarves that I'm keeping the core classes.

I'd strongly suggest Xanathar's Guide to Everything as a "Core+1" as it has a number of archetypal subclasses they just didn't have room for in the core book while still keeping the overall number of options to something manageable.

That said, I've got my own system now (still writing the new GM advice/tools section, but otherwise fully playable) so I doubt I'll ever be touching anything 5e (or the inevitable 6e; one class, one race, sixty-seven gender options) again.

So, if you ever do decide to start something with 5e, as a counter proposal, contact me and I'll either get you the playtest document, the pre-release draft or direct you to buy my book depending on where I'm at in the process when you do.

Quote from: Murphy78 on November 19, 2020, 05:50:42 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 18, 2020, 07:59:57 AM
You're not wrong. Some of this stuff is just silly. The spell customization in particular makes me snort, because I've had a policy that spells (at least in D&D) always have SOME level of variance from caster to caster. Spellcraft and arcana checks are just able to determine the common aspects from spell to spell and identify them.

You're right, it's a very old concept. I remember that spell "personalization" already was in Gaz 3: The Principalities of Glantri. Maybe is even  older than that.

Also, about subclasses: I remember the chaos that "kits" brought to AD&D 2nd. Fighter kits were ok, bard one were...no comment. I guess that is the usual splatbook degeneration cycle.
A big: No, thanks.

If I start something with 5e, I'm going to outlaw everything outside corebooks and also dragonborn and tiefling.
The Pundit in a video suggested that one should only play humans. He's got a point, but I'm such a sucker for dwarves that I'm keeping the core classes.

I mean, we have dwarves (or little people) in reality, so you should still be able to play one in an all humans campaign.

Quote from: Blankman on November 19, 2020, 10:12:29 AM

Quote from: Murphy78 on November 19, 2020, 05:50:42 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 18, 2020, 07:59:57 AM
You're not wrong. Some of this stuff is just silly. The spell customization in particular makes me snort, because I've had a policy that spells (at least in D&D) always have SOME level of variance from caster to caster. Spellcraft and arcana checks are just able to determine the common aspects from spell to spell and identify them.

You're right, it's a very old concept. I remember that spell "personalization" already was in Gaz 3: The Principalities of Glantri. Maybe is even  older than that.

Also, about subclasses: I remember the chaos that "kits" brought to AD&D 2nd. Fighter kits were ok, bard one were...no comment. I guess that is the usual splatbook degeneration cycle.
A big: No, thanks.

If I start something with 5e, I'm going to outlaw everything outside corebooks and also dragonborn and tiefling.
The Pundit in a video suggested that one should only play humans. He's got a point, but I'm such a sucker for dwarves that I'm keeping the core classes.

I mean, we have dwarves (or little people) in reality, so you should still be able to play one in an all humans campaign.

There are no dwarves in reality; there are dwarfs, but those are entirely different.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 19, 2020, 10:50:56 AM

Quote from: Blankman on November 19, 2020, 10:12:29 AM

Quote from: Murphy78 on November 19, 2020, 05:50:42 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 18, 2020, 07:59:57 AM
You're not wrong. Some of this stuff is just silly. The spell customization in particular makes me snort, because I've had a policy that spells (at least in D&D) always have SOME level of variance from caster to caster. Spellcraft and arcana checks are just able to determine the common aspects from spell to spell and identify them.

You're right, it's a very old concept. I remember that spell "personalization" already was in Gaz 3: The Principalities of Glantri. Maybe is even  older than that.

Also, about subclasses: I remember the chaos that "kits" brought to AD&D 2nd. Fighter kits were ok, bard one were...no comment. I guess that is the usual splatbook degeneration cycle.
A big: No, thanks.

If I start something with 5e, I'm going to outlaw everything outside corebooks and also dragonborn and tiefling.
The Pundit in a video suggested that one should only play humans. He's got a point, but I'm such a sucker for dwarves that I'm keeping the core classes.

I mean, we have dwarves (or little people) in reality, so you should still be able to play one in an all humans campaign.

There are no dwarves in reality; there are dwarfs, but those are entirely different.

Lighten up, Francis.

Quote from: Blankman on November 19, 2020, 11:41:18 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 19, 2020, 10:50:56 AM

Quote from: Blankman on November 19, 2020, 10:12:29 AM

Quote from: Murphy78 on November 19, 2020, 05:50:42 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 18, 2020, 07:59:57 AM
You're not wrong. Some of this stuff is just silly. The spell customization in particular makes me snort, because I've had a policy that spells (at least in D&D) always have SOME level of variance from caster to caster. Spellcraft and arcana checks are just able to determine the common aspects from spell to spell and identify them.

You're right, it's a very old concept. I remember that spell "personalization" already was in Gaz 3: The Principalities of Glantri. Maybe is even  older than that.

Also, about subclasses: I remember the chaos that "kits" brought to AD&D 2nd. Fighter kits were ok, bard one were...no comment. I guess that is the usual splatbook degeneration cycle.
A big: No, thanks.

If I start something with 5e, I'm going to outlaw everything outside corebooks and also dragonborn and tiefling.
The Pundit in a video suggested that one should only play humans. He's got a point, but I'm such a sucker for dwarves that I'm keeping the core classes.

I mean, we have dwarves (or little people) in reality, so you should still be able to play one in an all humans campaign.

There are no dwarves in reality; there are dwarfs, but those are entirely different.

Lighten up, Francis.

That was a joke, son.

Quote from: theOutlander on November 18, 2020, 04:28:37 AM
... and recalling many MANY comments on the internet hyped to the roof about the new "options", I get to wonder - has the 5e crowd gotten brain dead or something?

The book has some new sub-classes (pulled from UA), magic tattoos (oh boy, more spell-like character features), magic items, group patrons, making spells personalized, and some more. Apart from the content copy/pasted from unearthed arcana, most of the new guidelines is just stuff we've used to make up on our own. Like the spell customization - visually your magic missile can be a bunch of chickens now (omg, how cool and nouveau is that?!).

I won't go in more detail because I don't have time and will just continue to rant, but it seems this book solidifies my feelings that wotc and the 5e mass marked are locked in a cycle of regression. There is rampant churning and spoon-feeding of "player options" and half-baked rules that consist of a weak random table and a paragraph or two. And it seems that people crave for that stuff like it's the next ten commandments. I won't be surprised if some years from now, on a table somewhere, players are going through the books to see if it's allowed to have a house cat as a familiar.

This product doesn't inspire me enough to pick it up, but you're a little off-base here. Yes, 5E assumes far less house-ruling, and in general WotC D&D has been more RAW - or rather the player base is, despite every edition mentioning some variation of "rule zero."

But this is the first real player's options book in three years, since Xanathar's in 2017. Over the last three years, the yearly formula seems to be: 1-2 setting books, 1-2 story arcs, and 1 rules supplement of some kind, be it a player's option book, a monster book, etc.

My guess is that the next player's option book will be psionics oriented, probably in 2022 or 2023. Next year the supplement will probably be monsters (planar?).

So what they're "churning out" are stories and worlds, and supplementing with the occasional monster or player's option book.

The moment they release that book on Psionics also is the moment that the cycle towards 6th Edition D&D begins. Because they will have covered everything in 5th. And will start looking forward to that sweet new edition loot.

Yes, I am being cynical. But WOTC hasn't really given me cause not to be.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 21, 2020, 01:44:07 AM
The moment they release that book on Psionics also is the moment that the cycle towards 6th Edition D&D begins. Because they will have covered everything in 5th. And will start looking forward to that sweet new edition loot.

They've already got psionics pretty well mapped out in their Unearthed Arcana playtest material and D&D's 50th anniversary is coming up in 2024 so I wouldn't bet against your estimation of 6th Edition being on the horizon.

That said, I expect it to be very much a 2e to 5e's 1e type of edition. New art, lots of rewritten fluff text to pay homage to their Critical Race gods, but mostly the same mechanics. 4E taught them that taking innovative risks is BAD and enough of their audience will castigate them for not giving them what they mostly already have to make anything more than fully integrated errata and a fresh coat of paint a finacial risk.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2020, 06:09:35 AM
That said, I expect it to be very much a 2e to 5e's 1e type of edition. New art, lots of rewritten fluff text to pay homage to their Critical Race gods, but mostly the same mechanics.

  This is what I'm expecting, especially considering that they won't want to rock the boat too much given 5E's tremendous success. I do wonder if they're going to try to merge the progressiveness with the 'edgy and satanic' feel the game conveyed to an earlier generation; I was spotting nostalgia for that when skimming the Art & Arcana book. 6E may very well have a more 'evil-curious', 'demons aren't all bad,' 'join Chaos and the marginalized against the oppressive forces of Law', 'raise Hell against the privileged forces of Heaven' approach.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 21, 2020, 09:36:13 AM
This is what I'm expecting, especially considering that they won't want to rock the boat too much given 5E's tremendous success. I do wonder if they're going to try to merge the progressiveness with the 'edgy and satanic' feel the game conveyed to an earlier generation; I was spotting nostalgia for that when skimming the Art & Arcana book. 6E may very well have a more 'evil-curious', 'demons aren't all bad,' 'join Chaos and the marginalized against the oppressive forces of Law', 'raise Hell against the privileged forces of Heaven' approach.

The problem they're going to have with that is that Luciferian ethics and SJW-ism IS the Establishment now. Conservativism and Christianity are becoming the counter-culture and anti-establishment of society (not the staid Establishment Republican/Protestant in a bow-tie preaching weaksauce peace, love and can't we all just get along... Trump-style counter-punching with vicious memes Conservativism and blood of the martyrs, 'I'll call your jyhad and raise you one crusade!'-style Christianity).

I've heard more than a few comments from the teens and twenty-somethings in my social corcles that Big Tech's "This is disputed" tags on comments are becoming the modern equivalent of the old Parental Warning labels on CDs... if your comments aren't being flagged by The Man then you're just an establishment tool and should be ignored.

In other words we've already hit peak SJW because it's become the establishment position. The only thing an SJW/hail Satan aesthetic is going to appeal to is a narrow band of Leftist old farts.

By the time WotC rolls out their Critical Race Satanic Imagry 6th Edition, current edgy will probably be "Deus Vult!" Neo-crusader aesthetics, "What Would Jesus Do?" being answered with "tell his disciples to buy swords, flip over stone tables, and drive the Godless from the Temple with a bull whip!" and a reminder that the kings of badassery known as the Horsemen of the Apocalypse aren't demons... they were sent by God to wipe out the wicked.

Or something we haven't even realized is going to be a thing yet because that's what seems to happen with Pop culture.

Basically D&D6e will be everything that was peak edgy in 2019-2020 released into the market of 2024.

So I have Tasha's and I've read through it...

I don't like the way the mechanics work. Lots of stuff just works very differently from the PHB stuff. In some cases, it might work better than the PHB stuff, but it still comes off as ugly because it doesn't feel like it fits alongside what has come before (which isn't get updated/errata'd).

Examples of Tasha's tendencies:
1. Lots of things that add Proficiency Bonus to something.
2. Lots of things that are based on being able to do them Proficiency Bonus times before recharge on a long rest.
3. Lots of things that have an in-play method of recharge "recharges on a long rest or by spending a spell slot of 5th level or higher."
4. Very, very few things that recharge on a short rest.
5. Adding bonus spells to the subclasses of classes that need them (like Sorcerer) without retrofitting previous subclasses to match.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 21, 2020, 01:44:07 AM
The moment they release that book on Psionics also is the moment that the cycle towards 6th Edition D&D begins. Because they will have covered everything in 5th. And will start looking forward to that sweet new edition loot.

Yes, I am being cynical. But WOTC hasn't really given me cause not to be.

They still haven't really done the planes, but that is going to happen before psionics, I think. My guess would be planes in 2021-22, psionics in 2022-23. And of course there are also secondary sub-systems that they haven't really touched, and may never touch: epic play (beyond 20th), kingdom building, science fantasy, etc.

As for 2024 and the anniversary, I don't think they'll do a new edition but more of a revision. And yes, it will likely have "woke reskinning." All PCs must be gay or transgender, no races allowed except for a kind of indeterminate dark gray-beige skin tone, drow are pastel colors and live in a utopia called Wokaria, dwarfs are renamed "People of Shorter Stature" and orcs are noble and kind.

But on a serious note, I don't see a reason for them to reboot, at least anytime soon. They haven't taken the same approach of the past few editions, which requires the edition treadmill. They've found a more sustainable approach which allows them to plateau at a very high level of sales. They can keep churning out 1-2 setting books, 1-2 story arcs, and 1 rules supplement indefinitely, especially with the Magic settings to draw from.

I don't think they'll re-boot until sales start to lag, and probably only then after a downward trend is consistent for a couple years. A 2024 anniversary event--revised core rulebooks, and maybe one or two commemorative products--will delay that for another year or two, if sales start dipping by then. But regardless of what we think of their products or politics, WotC has found a really strong formula for continued success.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 21, 2020, 11:01:44 AM
"
4. Very, very few things that recharge on a short rest.

Yep.  They've designed a game that works very well for a traditional style dungeon crawl, or environment based game - but they've given up on that because very little of their fanbase is doing anything like that.

The thing that drives me up the wall is their failure to communicate the principles of their own game.  Almost everything is long rest now.  Even the Samuari, released in Xanathar's which has an ability especially designed to work with Action Surge (presumably - due to their inability to communicate they don't just come out and say so) which is 3/day.

They've designed a game that works.  They should be trying to think about how to communicate that style of play and incentivise it rather than letting it drift toward something it's not designed to do.

Quote from: TJS on November 21, 2020, 03:52:50 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 21, 2020, 11:01:44 AM
"
4. Very, very few things that recharge on a short rest.

Yep.  They've designed a game that works very well for a traditional style dungeon crawl, or environment based game - but they've given up on that because very little of their fanbase is doing anything like that.

The thing that drives me up the wall is their failure to communicate the principles of their own game.  Almost everything is long rest now.  Even the Samuari, released in Xanathar's which has an ability especially designed to work with Action Surge (presumably - due to their inability to communicate they don't just come out and say so) which is 3/day.

They've designed a game that works.  They should be trying to think about how to communicate that style of play and incentivise it rather than letting it drift toward something it's not designed to do.

Greetings!

"They've designed a game that works very well for a traditional style dungeon crawl or environment based game--but they've given up on that because very little of their fanbase is doing anything like that."

How have they given up on that?

And it makes me wonder, if very little of the fanbase is doing anything like that--(dungeon crawling and environment adventures)--what are they doing??? *laughing*

I admit, TJS, it is kind of a disturbing trend of thought.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: David Johansen on November 18, 2020, 09:27:55 AM

Quote from: theOutlander on November 18, 2020, 04:28:37 AM
- visually your magic missile can be a bunch of ethnically and genderally diverse chickens now (omg, how cool and nouveau is that?!).

Fixed that for you.

The ways of the Poultrymancer are strange and mysterious.

Necropoultrymancy brings us such spells as Chicken McNugget and the legendary Greater Chicken McNugget.

A physical Psionics book would pave the way to a Dark Sun setting book. Which we all know is popular. And yes, I would buy it.

Dark Sun!!!

Having received my (badly-bound) copy, I can attest that some of the stuff is indeed "obvious" and feels a bit like being spoon-fed. But it's only that way because I've played for so long. When I were a lad (insert Hovis accent), I had White Dwarf and Imagine, Dragon and the dungeoneer to help me with things that I now take for granted. Without stuff like "Monsters have feelings too" my DMing would be have been far poorer for far longer.
These things don't exist now - there's all sorts of stuff available on-line, but who knows whether it's any good? At least when it was in a magazine it would have been edited! So I don't mind the "filler", I'm playing/running a lot of 5th Ed, so I like to keep up with what's official, even just so I can say "no" to it if I need to.
But "obvious" stuff in a book meant to help, GMs? I'm ok with that. Just wish they'd fixed their binding problem.

On a more serious note, does UA still have things like rules for Piecemeal armor, armor as Damage Reduction or other variant rules to help combat the AC creep that invariably infects DnD campaigns as the characters level up?

Quote from: SHARK on November 21, 2020, 04:49:42 PM

Quote from: TJS on November 21, 2020, 03:52:50 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 21, 2020, 11:01:44 AM
"
4. Very, very few things that recharge on a short rest.

Yep.  They've designed a game that works very well for a traditional style dungeon crawl, or environment based game - but they've given up on that because very little of their fanbase is doing anything like that.

The thing that drives me up the wall is their failure to communicate the principles of their own game.  Almost everything is long rest now.  Even the Samuari, released in Xanathar's which has an ability especially designed to work with Action Surge (presumably - due to their inability to communicate they don't just come out and say so) which is 3/day.

They've designed a game that works.  They should be trying to think about how to communicate that style of play and incentivise it rather than letting it drift toward something it's not designed to do.

Greetings!

"They've designed a game that works very well for a traditional style dungeon crawl or environment based game--but they've given up on that because very little of their fanbase is doing anything like that."

How have they given up on that?

And it makes me wonder, if very little of the fanbase is doing anything like that--(dungeon crawling and environment adventures)--what are they doing??? *laughing*

I admit, TJS, it is kind of a disturbing trend of thought.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

People must really love Social Interaction drama.

I think it's plot driven railroads with set piece combats that people are playing.  That seems to be the underlying assumption behind most of the posts on Enworld at least.  It's not that they're not doing something that might be able to be called a dungeon crawl in some sense, but it's not the old school kind of exploratory dungeon crawl.

In a way WOTC knew their audience with 4E they just marketed it badly and made it overcomplicated and too unfamiliar.

This is for example one of the issues with rests.  People think that 6 combats is too many because that means they have to have six planned encounters to throw at the party that mostly end up being unsatisfactorily easy.  It doesn't seem to occur to them that the players might make the decision about whether to engage in a fight (and that if you can take out a group of potential enemies quickly and efficiently as part of pursuing a player driven goal then that's not a boring combat that's a satisfying step forward).  It's when "bandits attack" and you spend 30 minutes fighting a boring combat for no purpose that it all falls apart.

Quote from: TJS on November 26, 2020, 04:19:14 AM
I think it's plot driven railroads with set piece combats that people are playing.  That seems to be the underlying assumption behind most of the posts on Enworld at least.  It's not that they're not doing something that might be able to be called a dungeon crawl in some sense, but it's not the old school kind of exploratory dungeon crawl.

In a way WOTC knew their audience with 4E they just marketed it badly and made it overcomplicated and too unfamiliar.

This is for example one of the issues with rests.  People think that 6 combats is too many because that means they have to have six planned encounters to throw at the party that mostly end up being unsatisfactorily easy.  It doesn't seem to occur to them that the players might make the decision about whether to engage in a fight (and that if you can take out a group of potential enemies quickly and efficiently as part of pursuing a player driven goal then that's not a boring combat that's a satisfying step forward).  It's when "bandits attack" and you spend 30 minutes fighting a boring combat for no purpose that it all falls apart.

I play a lot of 5e official adventures. And there is the range you'd expect.

The most popular adventure book has been Curse of Strahd. It's a genuine sandbox adventure. It has some old school elements. Like you can encounter challenges well beyond your level, and they will not be dumbed down to adjust to your level (unless the DM makes an adjustment on their own). It's a combination of mystery, politics, combat, dungeons, and wilderness exploration.

We've been playing through Tales from the Yawning Portal. Which is a series of older adventures, mostly dungeon crawls. I love it. It's been a total blast.

Most recently I've been playing in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. I'd say it most closely hews towards the "plot driven railroads with set piece combats" that you mention. It's heavier on role playing, mystery and politics with some set piece combat. There are still some dungeon crawls, and some exploration (city based). But there seem to be a lot of pre-planned encounters which happen at specific points in the adventure. It does give lots of opportunity to choose who your allies and enemies will be, and it does allow variation in who the villain will be. But for me there's been a tad too much railroading. Fortunately my group knows how to go off the rails pretty well, and it's been very fun despite that bothersome aspect to the adventure (we've already very meaningfully altered the course of the entire city in ways not contemplated by the written adventure which has kept our DM on his toes). And it's the precursor to an extensive mega dungeon adventure. We plan to dive into that adventure while still engaging with the city above, which should break through the last of the railroading left in the city and open it up to a more true sandbox.

I've played some of the earlier published adventures from WOTC, and they also had more of a dungeon crawl element than you might expect.

Importantly, if you look at their adventure sales data through Amazon over time, you find the "plot driven railroads with set piece combats" adventures do not sell as well as the more sandbox-oriented ones. So I don't think the claim that the majority of players are focused on those kinds of adventures is particularly accurate. It's much more varied than that.

And if you think about it, that makes sense. The popular streaming games teach players to do their own thing and "tell their own story." While I might not be a fan of those streams, they're not creating players who like to be railroaded. The sandbox remains alive and thriving under 5e.

I will be above board and say I hate WOTC's PC effete worries about race.  Almost an irrational hatred.  OK fully irrational.  I hate their politics and increasingly wonder if I would get cancelled by half of new players and company reps for drawing breath and having opinions in such stark contrast.

That said integrity means being honest in the face of these feelings....

I really like most of Tasha's....a lot.  The production is just really good.   The suggestions, for patrons or flavor might be old hat for some bad ass grogs.   But for this AD&D player (1e bitch) I was inspired.  I hate to admit it.

I can with the added rules play the undead controlling warlock or ass beating cleric I always wanted.  The feats mean I can stay single classed but add a ton in combination with the players handbook and Xanathar's and be close to multiclassed.

If you divorce the politics from product, you find a good book.  I am sorry.  Don't kick me off of the rpg site!  I love the honesty and balls of this place!  Don't send me to sjw world!  I can dissent there and so but I need to come back here for air and sanity occasionally!

Now...all of that said....this is probably the last book I will buy from them.  Their double talk about race in the front of the book makes me want to gag on my own puke.  They back off of dwarves being hardy due to their blood.  Crawford talks in circles and in direct DIRECT conflict with the players handbook statements about race presumably to avoid offending the Twitter rage pansies.  So too I would assume dwarves are not good vs. poison since that will make someone's pussy hurt.  I know that is coarse, but wtf?!

So we also have to be bashful about evil drow, orcs and monsters?  They are ashamed to say the typical monster is evil.  Wtaf?  Monsters.  Boogeymen.  Well now they have to have feelings and a good relationship with their kids.  They have become good communicators and in touch with their feelings.

Not long after you have people questioning if killing monsters is problematic (tm).  It's already begun.

But it's a good book.  Likely the last I will buy from them, but hey. 

Quote from: Warpiglet on November 27, 2020, 08:43:09 PM
I will be above board and say I hate WOTC's PC effete worries about race.  Almost an irrational hatred.  OK fully irrational.  I hate their politics and increasingly wonder if I would get cancelled by half of new players and company reps for drawing breath and having opinions in such stark contrast.

That said integrity means being honest in the face of these feelings....

I really like most of Tasha's....a lot.  The production is just really good.   The suggestions, for patrons or flavor might be old hat for some bad ass grogs.   But for this AD&D player (1e bitch) I was inspired.  I hate to admit it.

I can with the added rules play the undead controlling warlock or ass beating cleric I always wanted.  The feats mean I can stay single classed but add a ton in combination with the players handbook and Xanathar's and be close to multiclassed.

If you divorce the politics from product, you find a good book.  I am sorry.  Don't kick me off of the rpg site!  I love the honesty and balls of this place!  Don't send me to sjw world!  I can dissent there and so but I need to come back here for air and sanity occasionally!

Now...all of that said....this is probably the last book I will buy from them.  Their double talk about race in the front of the book makes me want to gag on my own puke.  They back off of dwarves being hardy due to their blood.  Crawford talks in circles and in direct DIRECT conflict with the players handbook statements about race presumably to avoid offending the Twitter rage pansies.  So too I would assume dwarves are not good vs. poison since that will make someone's pussy hurt.  I know that is coarse, but wtf?!

So we also have to be bashful about evil drow, orcs and monsters?  They are ashamed to say the typical monster is evil.  Wtaf?  Monsters.  Boogeymen.  Well now they have to have feelings and a good relationship with their kids.  They have become good communicators and in touch with their feelings.

Not long after you have people questioning if killing monsters is problematic (tm).  It's already begun.

But it's a good book.  Likely the last I will buy from them, but hey.

Greetings!

No worries, Warpiglet! ;D I sympathize with your mixed feelings, and appreciate your honesty and integrity. I don't have this new book, yet, anyways, though your assessment also doesn't surprise me. WOTC has in the past produced beautiful, high-quality books which often include lots of cool and useful things, even inspiring.

Then, like going through your wonderful clean house, and entering the bedroom to see your dog has taken a huge steaming dump on the floor.

That's pretty close to what WOTC has frequently done with a number of past books--and this new one seems to be falling right in line, even more so, with that tradition. Now though it isn't just the bedroom, but also the kitchen, and the den. ;D

I suspect with Jeremy fuckstick being more involved, we will likely see more of such BS as you mention in your comments concerning the work. I imagine, however, gradually so, fewer people will be buying their books as their books mix in higher levels of the stupid train. Honestly, it is sad, because they have so many assets and talented people to create really nice books and supplements for the game.

Thank you again, Warpiglet, for your observations and commentary about the new book, merits and flaws alike.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Haha @ SHARK  "stupid train" and "fuckstick" made me laugh out loud!

We are in agreement about the state of WOTC I fear.

But the good news is that they have enough content and options that the sheer amount of character options means I could never even try them all as it is.   They can stop printing books now and I would be fine.

Which is good since I doubt I am buying anymore of them.  On some fora they are honestly wringing their hands about killing monsters with impunity. 

Let that sink in.  The destruction of the game is not as far off and insane as I would have ever dreamed.

That said, I have taken it upon myself to call out the crazy whenever I see it.  I am not an argumentative or hateful guy but when they start trying to find reasons to cancel Gygax, make you feel guilty for killing pretend monsters and having the audacity to dissent...it's time to speak out.  Hopefully someone somewhere will see how fucking crazy stuff is getting. 

Quote from: Warpiglet on November 27, 2020, 08:43:09 PM
I will be above board and say I hate WOTC's PC effete worries about race.  Almost an irrational hatred.  OK fully irrational.  I hate their politics and increasingly wonder if I would get cancelled by half of new players and company reps for drawing breath and having opinions in such stark contrast.

That said integrity means being honest in the face of these feelings....

I really like most of Tasha's....a lot.  The production is just really good.   The suggestions, for patrons or flavor might be old hat for some bad ass grogs.   But for this AD&D player (1e bitch) I was inspired.  I hate to admit it.

I can with the added rules play the undead controlling warlock or ass beating cleric I always wanted.  The feats mean I can stay single classed but add a ton in combination with the players handbook and Xanathar's and be close to multiclassed.

If you divorce the politics from product, you find a good book.  I am sorry.  Don't kick me off of the rpg site!  I love the honesty and balls of this place!  Don't send me to sjw world!  I can dissent there and so but I need to come back here for air and sanity occasionally!

Now...all of that said....this is probably the last book I will buy from them.  Their double talk about race in the front of the book makes me want to gag on my own puke.  They back off of dwarves being hardy due to their blood.  Crawford talks in circles and in direct DIRECT conflict with the players handbook statements about race presumably to avoid offending the Twitter rage pansies.  So too I would assume dwarves are not good vs. poison since that will make someone's pussy hurt.  I know that is coarse, but wtf?!

So we also have to be bashful about evil drow, orcs and monsters?  They are ashamed to say the typical monster is evil.  Wtaf?  Monsters.  Boogeymen.  Well now they have to have feelings and a good relationship with their kids.  They have become good communicators and in touch with their feelings.

Not long after you have people questioning if killing monsters is problematic (tm).  It's already begun.

But it's a good book.  Likely the last I will buy from them, but hey.

Feelings.......whoa, whoa, whoa feelings......

Quote from: Warpiglet on November 27, 2020, 08:43:09 PM
I will be above board and say I hate WOTC's PC effete worries about race.  Almost an irrational hatred.  OK fully irrational.  I hate their politics and increasingly wonder if I would get cancelled by half of new players and company reps for drawing breath and having opinions in such stark contrast.

That said integrity means being honest in the face of these feelings....

I really like most of Tasha's....a lot.  The production is just really good.   The suggestions, for patrons or flavor might be old hat for some bad ass grogs.   But for this AD&D player (1e bitch) I was inspired.  I hate to admit it.

I can with the added rules play the undead controlling warlock or ass beating cleric I always wanted.  The feats mean I can stay single classed but add a ton in combination with the players handbook and Xanathar's and be close to multiclassed.

If you divorce the politics from product, you find a good book.  I am sorry.  Don't kick me off of the rpg site!  I love the honesty and balls of this place!  Don't send me to sjw world!  I can dissent there and so but I need to come back here for air and sanity occasionally!

Now...all of that said....this is probably the last book I will buy from them.  Their double talk about race in the front of the book makes me want to gag on my own puke.  They back off of dwarves being hardy due to their blood.  Crawford talks in circles and in direct DIRECT conflict with the players handbook statements about race presumably to avoid offending the Twitter rage pansies.  So too I would assume dwarves are not good vs. poison since that will make someone's pussy hurt.  I know that is coarse, but wtf?!

So we also have to be bashful about evil drow, orcs and monsters?  They are ashamed to say the typical monster is evil.  Wtaf?  Monsters.  Boogeymen.  Well now they have to have feelings and a good relationship with their kids.  They have become good communicators and in touch with their feelings.

Not long after you have people questioning if killing monsters is problematic (tm).  It's already begun.

But it's a good book.  Likely the last I will buy from them, but hey.

Bitch please, does this look like forum-dot-rpg-dot-net? Calm down.

The sad part is that a halfway competent GM could assemble an adventure that plugs in shades of grey, involving various nonhumanoid races. Lizardmen are really good for this, btw. You don't need a sourcebook, and this garbage about 'well these races aren't really evil any more' is just silly.

It's even funnier when I recall a bit in Paizo's Second Darkness adventure path, where they talk about how you're not going to see 'good' drow like... ever, because the other drow will initially try to get them therapy (which for me is hilarious on its own) and then if that doesn't work, well... they get killed off.

Haha very good then.

Yes, it's almost like some people forget that some negative things in the worlds of fantasy are pretend. 

I also point out that just because a society is messed up does not mean it's inhabitants are necessarily evil.  Not sure why their panties are in a knot.  We had neutral drow from their inception and good ones since the 80s as well.   Demon worshipping cults that are cruel to their children don't tend to spawn a ton o faith altruism.  Exceptional individuals can break free but it would be hard.  Nothing at all related to racism per se. 

But where they really jump the shark is where they equate monsters with people.  Fucking trolls which are dumb, eat people.  I have even heard that sharks in our own oceans do things like that as well.  Maybe it's a species thing vs. racism?  Who knows.

Well they will reap what they sow.  Can you imagine playing in a game in which every band of orcs is just a misunderstood close knit family that is simply longing to be understood?  Oh the thrill of it all....

I like a lot of 5e.  And I have enough to literally last a lifetime.

We played 1e for ages skipped 2e, 3.5 and 4e.  It still holds up and the variability is endless if you create but I am preaching to the choir. 

Have a very strong feeling I will skipping the end of 5e and 6e sjw reinvented too.  But as a working family dude with buddies in the same boat, we still have only begun to mine this edition for what it's worth. 

When it is my turn to DM though I really need to tone down the healing and try to inject a little more 1e danger into it again...not cause I'm so legit but because challenge is more fun than participation trophies

One of the big issues, I've found, is that people forget that things like order, chaos, good and evil are NOT just philosophical concepts in D&D/PF. They're actual universal forces as tangible as gravity.

But things like that establish that there is a cosmic balance in the universe, and progressives don't handle that well (it's the moral relativism issue).

I made a thread; post on the subject before reading this. Maybe it could be merged somehow.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/a-rant-on-tasha-5e-and-we-are-not-in-osr-land-anymore/

Anyway, here is the relevant bit:

Tasha requires you to be both an expert in 5e (to be a bit bored with the thousands of existing options) and a novice in RPGs (for including stuff such as "what is session zero", "you can actually TALK to monsters before killing them", or "you know, if your elf character was raised by dwarves, you could give him proficiency with battleaxes instead of longswords (two nearly identical weapons, BTW)"

I'm not sure how to put that... but 5e has become too "official". It feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 28, 2020, 02:13:42 PMIt feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 12:54:22 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 28, 2020, 02:13:42 PMIt feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 11:32:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 12:54:22 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 28, 2020, 02:13:42 PMIt feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead? Why, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 11:32:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 12:54:22 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 28, 2020, 02:13:42 PMIt feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/c9e82371fa8b6d340eb872d97a3e349c/tenor.gif)

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PMWhy, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Quote from: VisionStorm on November 29, 2020, 06:22:56 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 11:32:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 12:54:22 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 28, 2020, 02:13:42 PMIt feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/c9e82371fa8b6d340eb872d97a3e349c/tenor.gif)

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PMWhy, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Naw man, it's because it's the easiest game to find others to play with, that's all. That doesn't make you brain dead. It just means that's the game you have the most access to in terms of a group to play with.

One of the groups I play with, all our players are highly intelligent. I've played with them for decades. We all have families now, and live in different states, and play online. There is simply zero chance I could get them to play a different game than D&D. D&D just has too many pre-loaded options which work with the online platforms we are used to. And...we love it. Why look for something else when we love what we already have? We've been playing 5e since the beta test in 2012.

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 07:50:34 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on November 29, 2020, 06:22:56 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 11:32:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 12:54:22 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 28, 2020, 02:13:42 PMIt feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/c9e82371fa8b6d340eb872d97a3e349c/tenor.gif)

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PMWhy, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Naw man, it's because it's the easiest game to find others to play with, that's all. That doesn't make you brain dead. It just means that's the game you have the most access to in terms of a group to play with.

One of the groups I play with, all our players are highly intelligent. I've played with them for decades. We all have families now, and live in different states, and play online. There is simply zero chance I could get them to play a different game than D&D. D&D just has too many pre-loaded options which work with the online platforms we are used to. And...we love it. Why look for something else when we love what we already have? We've been playing 5e since the beta test in 2012.

Wow, I really struck a nerve there, didn't I?

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 08:47:45 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 07:50:34 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on November 29, 2020, 06:22:56 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 11:32:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 12:54:22 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 28, 2020, 02:13:42 PMIt feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/c9e82371fa8b6d340eb872d97a3e349c/tenor.gif)

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PMWhy, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Naw man, it's because it's the easiest game to find others to play with, that's all. That doesn't make you brain dead. It just means that's the game you have the most access to in terms of a group to play with.

One of the groups I play with, all our players are highly intelligent. I've played with them for decades. We all have families now, and live in different states, and play online. There is simply zero chance I could get them to play a different game than D&D. D&D just has too many pre-loaded options which work with the online platforms we are used to. And...we love it. Why look for something else when we love what we already have? We've been playing 5e since the beta test in 2012.

Wow, I really struck a nerve there, didn't I?

No? You thought that was a rant or something?

Jeff, I'd love to play Traveler with you some day. It's not that I don't want to play other games. I just think some of you guys don't realize how lucky you are to have groups that are up for playing other stuff. Heck, just playing in person is hard to do these days...and I mean even pre-covid.

Greetings!

Hmmm...I think it just takes different kinds of people. What particular game they happen to like by itself isn't necessarily a reflection on their intelligence or intellectual abilities. I have some very intelligent friends, for example, that just aren't interested in playing any kind of roleplaying game. I have friends that love GURPS--but also enjoy Warhammer, and D&D. Other friends like Rolemaster, Warhammer, and D&D. Still others--perhaps most, I'd wager--strongly prefer D&D. Most of which prefer D&D 5E, though a few like AD&D. Currently, I would say 90% of people near me prefer D&D 5E. Accessibility, general popularity, positive exposure, ease of play--these are all absolutely enormous factors. Getting most people into some obscure game--or some forgotten game from decades ago that no one has heard about--just does not seem appealing to them in the slightest.

Accessibility has several factors as well. In two of my local game stores--which remain popular and huge centers for people to get together, play, and also look at games and buy stuff--D&D 5E is really the only game going. That's just the truth. Shelves and shelves of game books, mas, accessories devoted to D&D 5E, with *all* other game systems getting a half of shelf, maybe slightly more. They are entirely easily overlooked and dismissed.

People--not just the typical Grognard--but also cousins,kids, wives, girlfriends, girlfriends of your wives and girlfriends, and so on--they too, want to play what is *popular* and what everyone is talking about, and laughing, and all excited about. People are typically engaged in telling crazy fun stories about their D&D characters, playing D&D 5E--not some other indy, obscure game.

That's just the way it is.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 09:51:00 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 08:47:45 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 07:50:34 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on November 29, 2020, 06:22:56 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 11:32:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 12:54:22 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 28, 2020, 02:13:42 PMIt feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/c9e82371fa8b6d340eb872d97a3e349c/tenor.gif)

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PMWhy, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Naw man, it's because it's the easiest game to find others to play with, that's all. That doesn't make you brain dead. It just means that's the game you have the most access to in terms of a group to play with.

One of the groups I play with, all our players are highly intelligent. I've played with them for decades. We all have families now, and live in different states, and play online. There is simply zero chance I could get them to play a different game than D&D. D&D just has too many pre-loaded options which work with the online platforms we are used to. And...we love it. Why look for something else when we love what we already have? We've been playing 5e since the beta test in 2012.

Wow, I really struck a nerve there, didn't I?

No? You thought that was a rant or something?

Jeff, I'd love to play Traveler with you some day. It's not that I don't want to play other games. I just think some of you guys don't realize how lucky you are to have groups that are up for playing other stuff. Heck, just playing in person is hard to do these days...and I mean even pre-covid.

And yet playing any other game except those approved by the industry leader through Organized Play (the one you love to champion) does make it difficult for those who were introduced to gaming by D&D to see if there are other options out there. Admit it, there is a lot of pressure from WotC via Organized Play and the "community" to only play approved games like D&D (current edition) and MtG (current edition).

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 30, 2020, 12:56:20 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 09:51:00 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 08:47:45 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 07:50:34 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on November 29, 2020, 06:22:56 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 11:32:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 12:54:22 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 28, 2020, 02:13:42 PMIt feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/c9e82371fa8b6d340eb872d97a3e349c/tenor.gif)

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PMWhy, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Naw man, it's because it's the easiest game to find others to play with, that's all. That doesn't make you brain dead. It just means that's the game you have the most access to in terms of a group to play with.

One of the groups I play with, all our players are highly intelligent. I've played with them for decades. We all have families now, and live in different states, and play online. There is simply zero chance I could get them to play a different game than D&D. D&D just has too many pre-loaded options which work with the online platforms we are used to. And...we love it. Why look for something else when we love what we already have? We've been playing 5e since the beta test in 2012.

Wow, I really struck a nerve there, didn't I?

No? You thought that was a rant or something?

Jeff, I'd love to play Traveler with you some day. It's not that I don't want to play other games. I just think some of you guys don't realize how lucky you are to have groups that are up for playing other stuff. Heck, just playing in person is hard to do these days...and I mean even pre-covid.

And yet playing any other game except those approved by the industry leader through Organized Play (the one you love to champion) does make it difficult for those who were introduced to gaming by D&D to see if there are other options out there. Admit it, there is a lot of pressure from WotC via Organized Play and the "community" to only play approved games like D&D (current edition) and MtG (current edition).

The big move to increased VTT play over the past year has really made that clear.

If you don't play 5E you get little support from VTT features.  In fact, if you do play 5E, but houserule things, that will be enough to run into problems. 

And that's not taking into account all the other elements in VTT that encourage a narrowed playstyle.  They try to sell you features such as mapping features and dynamic lighting which require huge amounts of prep - but of course if you buy official adventure paths you get all that prep done for you.

It's a perfect circle for those with products to sell.  Encourage people to think that this incredibly time consuming way is how you run the game, then sell them extra products that do all the time consuming work for them.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 28, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
One of the big issues, I've found, is that people forget that things like order, chaos, good and evil are NOT just philosophical concepts in D&D/PF. They're actual universal forces as tangible as gravity.

But things like that establish that there is a cosmic balance in the universe, and progressives don't handle that well (it's the moral relativism issue).

The books aren't very good at explaining these concepts though. People have different and equally valid opinions on Wisdom, Alignment, HP and whatnot.

Sometimes I think if you have prior knowledge of fantasy and a vague understanding of the idea of fantasy adventuring or D&D, you'll be thrice as fine skipping all the text except the mechanical parts about chargen and player options. I mean, beginning with 3.5e, I've never cared about the importance of alignment and the "hardcoded" racial fluff, and I've never noticed many of the long (or recently) trodden issues . Probably because I always assumed that the game had to be played in more of a "generally makes sense in an adventure story" kind of way. When it hit me that the classes are just combat kits, encounters should be budgeted and um, actually there is a cosmology you have to adhere to, I found I was playing wrong.

Quote from: theOutlander on November 30, 2020, 06:18:09 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 28, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
One of the big issues, I've found, is that people forget that things like order, chaos, good and evil are NOT just philosophical concepts in D&D/PF. They're actual universal forces as tangible as gravity.

But things like that establish that there is a cosmic balance in the universe, and progressives don't handle that well (it's the moral relativism issue).

The books aren't very good at explaining these concepts though. People have different and equally valid opinions on Wisdom, Alignment, HP and whatnot.

Sometimes I think if you have prior knowledge of fantasy and a vague understanding of the idea of fantasy adventuring or D&D, you'll be thrice as fine skipping all the text except the mechanical parts about chargen and player options. I mean, beginning with 3.5e, I've never cared about the importance of alignment and the "hardcoded" racial fluff, and I've never noticed many of the long (or recently) trodden issues . Probably because I always assumed that the game had to be played in more of a "generally makes sense in an adventure story" kind of way. When it hit me that the classes are just combat kits, encounters should be budgeted and um, actually there is a cosmology you have to adhere to, I found I was playing wrong.

I think you might be conflating alignment with said moral/ethical forces. Alignment is how you behave, in theory. But the cosmic forces of good, evil, law, and chaos -- those are much more... abstract. We're not really equipped (nor are our PCs) to comprehend them except on tiny scales.

Also, bluntly put: if you're having fun, there is no 'playing wrong'. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to deploy things like house rules and whatnot. No set of mechanics can prepare for every eventuality. You may find yourself in conflict with other players and DMs who interpret things more strictly, but... who gives a shit?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 30, 2020, 08:42:45 AM
I think you might be conflating alignment with said moral/ethical forces. Alignment is how you behave, in theory. But the cosmic forces of good, evil, law, and chaos -- those are much more... abstract. We're not really equipped (nor are our PCs) to comprehend them except on tiny scales.

I know, my point is that these things are clearly not defined and understood unequivocally, so people still argue about what is what. DCC explicitly states that alignment is only about cosmic scales, not if your PC is a chaotic nutjob.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 30, 2020, 08:42:45 AM
Also, bluntly put: if you're having fun, there is no 'playing wrong'. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to deploy things like house rules and whatnot. No set of mechanics can prepare for every eventuality. You may find yourself in conflict with other players and DMs who interpret things more strictly, but... who gives a shit?

Well, of course! I was indulging myself here, but the message was that many concepts in D&D are applicable/valid/(mis)understood only in the context of D&D and if you're not conditioned enough, you may not even get what all the fuss is about. I mean, grey morality, philosophical complexity and nature vs nurture in fantasy are ideas older than WotC itself, albeit brought recently as a new and exciting way to spice up your campaign. Which for me has the same value of telling me that spell fluff can be personalized.

Quote from: TJS on November 30, 2020, 01:33:14 AM

The big move to increased VTT play over the past year has really made that clear.

If you don't play 5E you get little support from VTT features.  In fact, if you do play 5E, but houserule things, that will be enough to run into problems. 

And that's not taking into account all the other elements in VTT that encourage a narrowed playstyle.  They try to sell you features such as mapping features and dynamic lighting which require huge amounts of prep - but of course if you buy official adventure paths you get all that prep done for you.

It's a perfect circle for those with products to sell.  Encourage people to think that this incredibly time consuming way is how you run the game, then sell them extra products that do all the time consuming work for them.

Info, not counterargument: I know of an active project to get ACKS on Foundry.

For the most part, though, Official 5E is the high-visibility game on the VTT systems.

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 30, 2020, 12:56:20 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 09:51:00 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 08:47:45 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 07:50:34 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on November 29, 2020, 06:22:56 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 11:32:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 12:54:22 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 28, 2020, 02:13:42 PMIt feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else.

You mean, the 97% of all rpg players?

Yes, the 97% of brain dead rpg players.

LOL you think the people who only play D&D are brain dead?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/c9e82371fa8b6d340eb872d97a3e349c/tenor.gif)

Quote from: Mistwell on November 29, 2020, 05:13:31 PMWhy, you're superior because they often have families and only have time for one game with their old D&D buddies instead of lonely ass you who thinks he's superior for...playing Traveler?

Damn, that's a lot of stuff that appears nowhere in Jeff's post, but if those brain dead people have such limited time that they struggle to learn an RPG, then maybe a game that requires them to keep track of dozens of bloated fiddly class features and hundreds of artificially distinct spell entries (half of them dealing with what's essentially a damage effect by a hundred different names) isn't the system for them.

Naw man, it's because it's the easiest game to find others to play with, that's all. That doesn't make you brain dead. It just means that's the game you have the most access to in terms of a group to play with.

One of the groups I play with, all our players are highly intelligent. I've played with them for decades. We all have families now, and live in different states, and play online. There is simply zero chance I could get them to play a different game than D&D. D&D just has too many pre-loaded options which work with the online platforms we are used to. And...we love it. Why look for something else when we love what we already have? We've been playing 5e since the beta test in 2012.

Wow, I really struck a nerve there, didn't I?

No? You thought that was a rant or something?

Jeff, I'd love to play Traveler with you some day. It's not that I don't want to play other games. I just think some of you guys don't realize how lucky you are to have groups that are up for playing other stuff. Heck, just playing in person is hard to do these days...and I mean even pre-covid.

And yet playing any other game except those approved by the industry leader through Organized Play (the one you love to champion) does make it difficult for those who were introduced to gaming by D&D to see if there are other options out there. Admit it, there is a lot of pressure from WotC via Organized Play and the "community" to only play approved games like D&D (current edition) and MtG (current edition).

I guess? None of my groups are even exposed to organized play. Heck, some of the players in one of my groups have no game store in reasonable driving distance of their house. But, that's just the couple of groups I game with. I've played organized play before (starting way back with the RPGA, and a few years ago with WOTC's organized play in a game store). But it's never been a primary gaming source for me, and is not something I do these days (and was not doing for the couple years prior to Covid).

But sure I suppose WOTC sponsoring thousands of games in game stores is influence on people playing D&D. Pretty sure that's the point of them sponsoring it? Is that a reflection of the intelligence of the players playing in those games though? On the whole I've found even new D&D players who find the game through organized play remain above average in intelligence.  Not that I find intelligence a particularly important thing in life, but the game still is attracting the kids who are relatively smart.

Quote from: Mistwell on November 30, 2020, 12:59:32 PM
But sure I suppose WOTC sponsoring thousands of games in game stores is influence on people playing D&D. Pretty sure that's the point of them sponsoring it? Is that a reflection of the intelligence of the players playing in those games though? On the whole I've found even new D&D players who find the game through organized play remain above average in intelligence.  Not that I find intelligence a particularly important thing in life, but the game still is attracting the kids who are relatively smart.

I think Jeff was referring more to the accounts of WOTC 'representatives' actively suppressing public playing of other games, not just promoting their own.  I believe he mentioned some instances a couple of years ago and I have heard other people say it as well. 

Myself, I avoid organized play like the plague so I don't have any first hand knowledge myself.

Quote from: moonsweeper on November 30, 2020, 01:34:47 PM
I think Jeff was referring more to the accounts of WOTC 'representatives' actively suppressing public playing of other games, not just promoting their own.  I believe he mentioned some instances a couple of years ago and I have heard other people say it as well. 

Myself, I avoid organized play like the plague so I don't have any first hand knowledge myself.

I admit, I've never seen that happen in the FLGS's I frequent. The closest thing I've ever heard of to that was some bitching because Games Workshop wouldn't allow discussion of other games in their stores (which is still moronic).

Quote from: moonsweeper on November 30, 2020, 01:34:47 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 30, 2020, 12:59:32 PM
But sure I suppose WOTC sponsoring thousands of games in game stores is influence on people playing D&D. Pretty sure that's the point of them sponsoring it? Is that a reflection of the intelligence of the players playing in those games though? On the whole I've found even new D&D players who find the game through organized play remain above average in intelligence.  Not that I find intelligence a particularly important thing in life, but the game still is attracting the kids who are relatively smart.

I think Jeff was referring more to the accounts of WOTC 'representatives' actively suppressing public playing of other games, not just promoting their own.  I believe he mentioned some instances a couple of years ago and I have heard other people say it as well. 

Myself, I avoid organized play like the plague so I don't have any first hand knowledge myself.

Oh I must have missed that conversation. If that's happening, obviously it's fucked up and should be challenged, and any store doing it should be discussed here.

Quote from: Mistwell on November 30, 2020, 04:07:48 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on November 30, 2020, 01:34:47 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 30, 2020, 12:59:32 PM
But sure I suppose WOTC sponsoring thousands of games in game stores is influence on people playing D&D. Pretty sure that's the point of them sponsoring it? Is that a reflection of the intelligence of the players playing in those games though? On the whole I've found even new D&D players who find the game through organized play remain above average in intelligence.  Not that I find intelligence a particularly important thing in life, but the game still is attracting the kids who are relatively smart.

I think Jeff was referring more to the accounts of WOTC 'representatives' actively suppressing public playing of other games, not just promoting their own.  I believe he mentioned some instances a couple of years ago and I have heard other people say it as well. 

Myself, I avoid organized play like the plague so I don't have any first hand knowledge myself.

Oh I must have missed that conversation. If that's happening, obviously it's fucked up and should be challenged, and any store doing it should be discussed here.

IIRC, it was a situation where jeffy got his table space bumped because the organized play people had numbers and likely brought in way more sales. I'm sure jeffy's winning personality helped cinch the deal on putting his ass in the corner.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 30, 2020, 04:42:10 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 30, 2020, 04:07:48 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on November 30, 2020, 01:34:47 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 30, 2020, 12:59:32 PM
But sure I suppose WOTC sponsoring thousands of games in game stores is influence on people playing D&D. Pretty sure that's the point of them sponsoring it? Is that a reflection of the intelligence of the players playing in those games though? On the whole I've found even new D&D players who find the game through organized play remain above average in intelligence.  Not that I find intelligence a particularly important thing in life, but the game still is attracting the kids who are relatively smart.

I think Jeff was referring more to the accounts of WOTC 'representatives' actively suppressing public playing of other games, not just promoting their own.  I believe he mentioned some instances a couple of years ago and I have heard other people say it as well. 

Myself, I avoid organized play like the plague so I don't have any first hand knowledge myself.

Oh I must have missed that conversation. If that's happening, obviously it's fucked up and should be challenged, and any store doing it should be discussed here.

IIRC, it was a situation where jeffy got his table space bumped because the organized play people had numbers and likely brought in way more sales. I'm sure jeffy's winning personality helped cinch the deal on putting his ass in the corner.

Your butthurt is my nourishment, HappyDaze.

Quote from: TJS on November 19, 2020, 05:11:03 AM

Quote from: theOutlander on November 18, 2020, 04:28:37 AM
I won't go in more detail because I don't have time and will just continue to rant, but it seems this book solidifies my feelings that wotc and the 5e mass marked are locked in a cycle of regression. There is rampant churning and spoon-feeding of "player options" and half-baked rules that consist of a weak random table and a paragraph or two. And it seems that people crave for that stuff like it's the next ten commandments. I won't be surprised if some years from now, on a table somewhere, players are going through the books to see if it's allowed to have a house cat as a familiar.

Ha.  Yes.  It's like watching an old friend slowly fall of the wagon after their hard fought recovery.  Thing like subclass bloat, loosening of race design, reprinting old material as stealth errata.  It's taken them a while and it's been happening in slow motion but more and more of the mentality of 4E has been creeping back in.

They've apparently lost interest in the short rest design from the core book and now almost everything is a daily (long rest) resource.  The idea of leaving things up to the DM has apparently been forgotten (hence the errata) and then the sage advice rulings clarifying their errata.

Yup. This book is really a reversal of the policy that I specifically talked through with Mike Mearls when 5e was being created.

The SJWs will rail against anything D&D until it becomes absolute ZERO.

They don't care about the hobby. They just want their opinion to dominate to the exclusion of everything else.

It's weird watching people kill a game. Like watching a snake slowly devour a mouse. Funny that Hasbro is the rodent. You'd imagine such a company can defend itself.

Thank Dionysus for the OSR.

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 15, 2020, 08:45:53 PM
The SJWs will rail against anything D&D until it becomes absolute ZERO.

They don't care about the hobby. They just want their opinion to dominate to the exclusion of everything else.

It's weird watching people kill a game. Like watching a snake slowly devour a mouse. Funny that Hasbro is the rodent. You'd imagine such a company can defend itself.

Thank Dionysus for the OSR.

Now that's just insulting to the snake. It's more like watching cancer or radiation poisoning eat away at a healthy organism.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 16, 2020, 09:54:49 AM

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 15, 2020, 08:45:53 PM
The SJWs will rail against anything D&D until it becomes absolute ZERO.

They don't care about the hobby. They just want their opinion to dominate to the exclusion of everything else.

It's weird watching people kill a game. Like watching a snake slowly devour a mouse. Funny that Hasbro is the rodent. You'd imagine such a company can defend itself.

Thank Dionysus for the OSR.

Now that's just insulting to the snake. It's more like watching cancer or radiation poisoning eat away at a healthy organism.

Or perhaps like looking at a healthy organism and realizing that every cell in it is different than when it was young, and that this growth is natural. If a game fails to grow in a similar way, the lack of apoptosis in the death of the older ideas is the real cancer.

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 15, 2020, 08:45:53 PM
The SJWs will rail against anything D&D until it becomes absolute ZERO.

They don't care about the hobby. They just want their opinion to dominate to the exclusion of everything else.

It's weird watching people kill a game. Like watching a snake slowly devour a mouse. Funny that Hasbro is the rodent. You'd imagine such a company can defend itself.

Thank Dionysus for the OSR.

Similar to HappyDaze -- I don't have any inside sales knowledge, but as far as I can see, D&D is roughly as popular as it has ever been. The books are ranked highly in Amazon, and I'm seeing loads of pop cultural references. There's even a major D&D film being produced. This is a huge contrast from, say, the 2e era or the 4e era.

D&D isn't dying, it's booming. Now, maybe this is in spite of the WotC's liberal leanings, and it would do even better by being more like the OSR -- I can't easily tell about that. I'm not commenting on cause - just results.