TheRPGSite

WOW - this is crazy amount of fall out. Wizards must have given in to the SJWs on Twitter to deplatform consultants.

URGGGG

Today?

Yeah just noticed whenever I logged in.

Are people asking why Pundit is gone?  I can see ZakS, but other consultants?  Just check to see if there is a error, or this is indeed intentional.

How were they removed?

Quote from: Grognard101;1075404WOW - this is crazy amount of fall out. Wizards must have given in to the SJWs on Twitter to deplatform consultants.

URGGGG

This will be debated at length, I believe.  If WOTC wants to be an echo chamber for their full time staff, so be it.  They will do what they want to do, and they will ignore any criticism to the contrary.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075407Are people asking why Pundit is gone?  I can see ZakS, but other consultants?  Just check to see if there is a error, or this is indeed intentional.

Likely because that ass clown Zweihander has been stirring the mob like crazy since this happened with his little "unpersons" list. I followed this shit storm on reddit and within 12 hours of the Zak allegations coming out Zweihander had basically meme'd Pundit in to being an "alt-right identitarian".

I was going to buy a copy of Zweihander but fuck that dude, I'll be damned if he gets a penny of my money.

Greetings!

You know, if I was Pundit, I would investigate with a lawyer about filing Libel, Harassment, Slander, Defamation suit against Daniel Fox. Daniel Fox is certainly slandering Pundit with unsubstantiated and malicious lies, which not only impugn Pundit's character--but also cost him money, reputation, and future profitable opportunities. I'm not a lawyer, though I'm wondering if what Fox has been doing to Pundit is legal. It would be glorious to drag Fox into court so he could be sued for several hundred grand or more, and publicly crucified!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Arkansan;1075411Likely because that ass clown Zweihander has been stirring the mob like crazy since this happened with his little "unpersons" list. I followed this shit storm on reddit and within 12 hours of the Zak allegations coming out Zweihander had basically meme'd Pundit in to being an "alt-right identitarian".

I was going to buy a copy of Zweihander but fuck that dude, I'll be damned if he gets a penny of my money.

To be fair ppl have been complaining about RPG Pundit since ConsultantGate (so annoying that it was even a thing). This may be the straw that broke the camel's back. Looking on my Twitler, there has been a loooooong call to remove Pundit from the game - erroneous as it is.

edit - not to split hairs but looking at Zweihammer's twitter he didnt call Pundit an abuser he said he was a harasser. I won't link it here, dont want to piss off Pundit.

Quote from: Arkansan;1075411Likely because that ass clown Zweihander has been stirring the mob like crazy since this happened with his little "unpersons" list. I followed this shit storm on reddit and within 12 hours of the Zak allegations coming out Zweihander had basically meme'd Pundit in to being an "alt-right identitarian".

I was going to buy a copy of Zweihander but fuck that dude, I'll be damned if he gets a penny of my money.

How did he get his book in Target is beyond me.  Enough talking about trash though.

I think we need a wait and see policy.  I for one want to know the truth and for that we need evidence.

Quote from: SHARK;1075412Greetings!

You know, if I was Pundit, I would investigate with a lawyer about filing Libel, Harassment, Slander, Defamation suit against Daniel Fox. Daniel Fox is certainly slandering Pundit with unsubstantiated and malicious lies, which not only impugn Pundit's character--but also cost him money, reputation, and future profitable opportunities. I'm not a lawyer, though I'm wondering if what Fox has been doing to Pundit is legal. It would be glorious to drag Fox into court so he could be sued for several hundred grand or more, and publicly crucified!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This needs to happen.

Here's the post: https://twitter.com/TravisLegge/status/1097322220844548097

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075415This needs to happen.

The problem I see is that he didn't outright call Pundit a sexual abuser. He said he was a harassers and provided links to fucking Sarah Darkmagick and Pundits blog. It's certainly weasel-ish but nothing illegal about it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075415This needs to happen.

Greetings!

Hey my friend! Well, geesus, it just galls me to think that spewing maicious lies about a person, specifically in the marketplace, in a professional capacity--whereupon such malicious slander can ruin someone's career and business is somehow legal, and without a legal standing to present a counterattack and hammer them. It just boggles me if such an outrage can be legally sanctioned, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'm surprised that WotC didn't remove Frank Mentzer while they were at it.

If they removed Zak and Pundit, only, that would be the corporation bowing to SJW pressure.
If they removed all the consultant's names, including Robin Laws, that's the corporation not wanting to deal with the headache.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075414How did he get his book in Target is beyond me.  Enough talking about trash though.

I think we need a wait and see policy.  I for one want to know the truth and for that we need evidence.

It gets worse I just found Warhander (not using the real name of the game) on Walmart.com too. WTF?

Quote from: Grognard101;1075422It gets worse I just found Warhander (not using the real name of the game) on Walmart.com too. WTF?

For a piece of shit he is doing a hell of a job getting his book sold.

Quote from: Apparition;1075420I'm surprised that WotC didn't remove Frank Mentzer while they were at it.

It's probably a good thing that Gygax and Arneson died when they did.  It was probably only a matter of time before the outrage mob accused them of something.  Actually I'm surprised that Ed Greenwood has escaped the eye of sauron so far.  With some of the stuff he has written, it seems inevitable.

Quote from: Grognard101;1075417The problem I see is that he didn't outright call Pundit a sexual abuser. He said he was a harassers and provided links to fucking Sarah Darkmagick and Pundits blog. It's certainly weasel-ish but nothing illegal about it.

Over on reddit he's out right called Pundit a racist, that's been his main rallying cry over there.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1075421If they removed Zak and Pundit, only, that would be the corporation bowing to SJW pressure.
If they removed all the consultant's names, including Robin Laws, that's the corporation not wanting to deal with the headache.

According to Grognard101's screen-cap, they removed all the consultants.

Quote from: Arkansan;1075426Over on reddit he's out right called Pundit a racist, that's been his main rallying cry over there.

Pundit is racist?  Which bizzoro world is that even remotely true?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075430Pundit is racist?  Which bizzoro world is that even remotely true?

He verbally defended a racist who was pictured physically defending himself against an Antifa at a rally (Pundit didn't initially know the guy was racist, but then said he didn't care). In their world that's guilt by association.

Quote from: SHARK;1075412Greetings!

You know, if I was Pundit, I would investigate with a lawyer about filing Libel, Harassment, Slander, Defamation suit against Daniel Fox. Daniel Fox is certainly slandering Pundit with unsubstantiated and malicious lies, which not only impugn Pundit's character--but also cost him money, reputation, and future profitable opportunities. I'm not a lawyer, though I'm wondering if what Fox has been doing to Pundit is legal. It would be glorious to drag Fox into court so he could be sued for several hundred grand or more, and publicly crucified!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

One factor might be whether RPGPundit (which is an online persona rather than a true identity) is a public figure that has "achieved public fame or notoriety" or has "voluntarily entered the public eye because of a particular public issue or controversy." Seeing as how Pundit posts blogs on controversies with regularity, there's a fair chance that he is, within RPG circles, a public figure and not under all of the same protections that private individuals enjoy. If a court decided that RPGPundit is a public figure, the standards of proving libel get much trickier.

Quote from: Grognard101;1075422It gets worse I just found Warhander (not using the real name of the game) on Walmart.com too. WTF?

3rd-party sales.  Like Amazon Marketplace, or eBay.  Walmart and Target aren't carrying his hack-job piece-of-shit - he, or someone affiliated with him, has setup a vendor account, and is selling it through their marketplace.

Quote from: kythri;10754423rd-party sales.  Like Amazon Marketplace, or eBay.  Walmart and Target aren't carrying his hack-job piece-of-shit - he, or someone affiliated with him, has setup a vendor account, and is selling it through their marketplace.

Interestingly enough, both Walmart and Amazon will only be carrying the new "Revised Core Rulebook" (releasing in June) rather than the one that is currently available.

EDIT: Until now, I didn't know that there was a revised version coming out. Sure enough, my DTRPG library lists six different versions of this thing (3 of them are printer-friendly versions of the other 3).

I wonder what Robin Laws and Kenneth Hite think of being accused of being abusers of women by Wizards of the Coast?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075452I wonder what Robin Laws and Kenneth Hite think of being accused of being abusers of women by Wizards of the Coast?

It is what it is, a way to remove Zak's name without (WOTC hopes) causing too much upset to the other contributors. I don't detect any suggestion that the other contributors are guilty of the same stuff as Zak, even if your name also created some controversy on other grounds. Will Robin and Ken be upset by this move - I doubt it, but I wouldn't blame them if they were, from a credit perspective, not because they have concern about getting tarred with the same brush.

The reason for this is very clear:

a) SJWs (plus fake-SJW Daniel Fox) were demanding that my name be removed along with Zak's.  Wizards was afraid that if they only removed Fox's name it wouldn't placate the outraged.

b) They also knew that I DID NOTHING WRONG, and that removing only my name and Zak's would clearly suggest that I had in fact been guilty of abusing women like Zak, and would set them up for a massive defamation of character lawsuit.

c) On the other hand, simply removing the entire Consultants credits, without making any statement at all, is sufficiently deniable by them that they can't be litigated for it.

So instead of standing up to the SJW totalitarians, these cowardly assholes would rather remove the credit that all of us who were Consultants earned than dare to just remove Zak and not me.

A for-profit company choosing to try to avoid controversy in their quest to maximize shareholder wealth. Who would ever have expected that?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075459So instead of standing up to the SJW totalitarians, these cowardly assholes would rather remove the credit that all of us who were Consultants earned than dare to just remove Zak and not me.

I don't think that removing Zak would be right. He was a consultant and contributed to the game. It's revisionist to try to deny that, regardless of later revelations about him.

I would prefer that the list of consultants remain up, but failing that, I think the next best choice is not to credit any consultants. To be fair, crediting consultants and play-testers often is not done for games - so while it's a weasely PR move, it isn't blatantly wrong to do so (unless the consultant contract calls for visible credit).

Ship sort of sailed. They were all credited in prior printings. They very well can't make all of the books currently out in the wild just disappear. The credits are there.

This sort of revisionist cowardice does not sit right with me. The people did the work. They were consultants. That's the beginning and end of the matter.

Unless WOTC wants to completely recall and replace the books I and others have already purchased with new ones. This seems absolutely petty and pointless.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1075541Unless WOTC wants to completely recall and replace the books I and others have already purchased with new ones. This seems absolutely petty and pointless.

Sadly I have purchased the 5e PHB for my son. I'm happy he likes running Call of Cthulu games more though, and I'll just go back to running older D&D games since WOTC wants to get politically incorrect again. Glad I didn't give them a lot of money just so they could  screw a bunch of game designers for the sake of a few bad apples. That reeks.

Quote from: SHARK;1075412Greetings!

You know, if I was Pundit, I would investigate with a lawyer about filing Libel, Harassment, Slander, Defamation suit against Daniel Fox. Daniel Fox is certainly slandering Pundit with unsubstantiated and malicious lies, which not only impugn Pundit's character--but also cost him money, reputation, and future profitable opportunities. I'm not a lawyer, though I'm wondering if what Fox has been doing to Pundit is legal. It would be glorious to drag Fox into court so he could be sued for several hundred grand or more, and publicly crucified!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This guy gets it.

I would love to see Pundit slam Daniel Fox with a libel suit, the fucker clearly deserves it.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1075548Sadly I have purchased the 5e PHB for my son. I'm happy he likes running Call of Cthulu games more though, and I'll just go back to running older D&D games since WOTC wants to get politically incorrect again. Glad I didn't give them a lot of money just so they could  screw a bunch of game designers for the sake of a few bad apples. That reeks.

I think core 5E retains value as a game, even if WOTC gives in to the SJW crowd.  The PHB still has value to me, because that money was already spent, for my part.
.

You are a very different dude on rpg pub Doc Sammy. Its almost like you're trying to suck up to everybody by repeating language of the poster in front of you.

Quote from: Grognard101;1075556You are a very different dude on rpg pub Doc Sammy. Its almost like you're trying to suck up to everybody by repeating language of the poster in front of you.

I do apologize for that, I really do. Daniel Fox irritates me to no end and I don't act like that on RPG Pub because I don't want to bring any harm or cause any chaos to the Pub, as it is literally my favorite RPG discussion board and I honestly prefer posting at the Pub than I do here or anywhere else (that being said, Pundit does run a tight ship and this is a good place to blow off steam when it comes to politics related to gaming)

Like, I'm a lot more laid-back on the Pub because I am more at home there. Here, everyone's all riled up anyway so I might as well jump in too.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075557Like, I'm a lot more laid-back on the Pub because I am more at home there. Here, everyone's all riled up anyway so I might as well jump in too.

The most important time to be laid-back is when other people are getting riled up. Taking things up a notch just makes you like the eternally outraged posters you claim to despise on RPGnet. Be true to yourself rather than being a tool of whatever board you're on.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1075559The most important time to be laid-back is when other people are getting riled up. Taking things up a notch just makes you like the eternally outraged posters you claim to despise on RPGnet. Be true to yourself rather than being a tool of whatever board you're on.

Great advice is often hard to follow.

Quote from: Bren;1075537A for-profit company choosing to try to avoid controversy in their quest to maximize shareholder wealth. Who would ever have expected that?

They did so in the least strategic way possible, the way that was GUARANTEED to keep the SJWs calling for their blood and adding a bunch of Cultural Libertarians calling for their blood now too.

EDIT: Also, if you are a company and have the choice between causing controversy among YOUR OWN CUSTOMERS versus causing controversy amongst a tiny group of political extremists who have very publicly stated they are NOT your customers, never were, hate and have always hated your product, and never would be, the wiser thing is not to 'get woke' if you want to avoid 'going broke'.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075551This guy gets it.

I would love to see Pundit slam Daniel Fox with a libel suit, the fucker clearly deserves it.

Greetings!

Thanks, Sammy. Well, unfortunately, as Pundit mentioned, WOTC is in the clear by simply removing the entire Consultant Credit.

Apparently, Daniel Fox is also entirely free to go about the public square spreading lies, maliciously slandering Pundit, besmirching Pundit's character at every opportunity, while he promotes lists of hated people to be targeted on a constant basis by the ever-increasing mobs of SJW fanatics that Fox gleefully encourages. All such activity contributing to the public disparagement of Pundit's reputation, and furthermore damaging Pundit's present and future business and commercial opportunities.

Personally, I am dismayed that such behaviour is legal, and that Pundit has no legal recourse to adress such terrible behaviour by Daniel "Zweihander" Fox.

That is not merely sad, but tragic. It is unjust. I hope that Pundit prevails and thrives in great success.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1075572Greetings!

Thanks, Sammy. Well, unfortunately, as Pundit mentioned, WOTC is in the clear by simply removing the entire Consultant Credit.

Apparently, Daniel Fox is also entirely free to go about the public square spreading lies, maliciously slandering Pundit, besmirching Pundit's character at every opportunity, while he promotes lists of hated people to be targeted on a constant basis by the ever-increasing mobs of SJW fanatics that Fox gleefully encourages. All such activity contributing to the public disparagement of Pundit's reputation, and furthermore damaging Pundit's present and future business and commercial opportunities.

Personally, I am dismayed that such behaviour is legal, and that Pundit has no legal recourse to adress such terrible behaviour by Daniel "Zweihander" Fox.

That is not merely sad, but tragic. It is unjust. I hope that Pundit prevails and thrives in great success.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, sadly Daniel Fox is in the clear for now, at least legally.

I need to stop letting my emotions override me when it comes to assholes in our hobby (Daniel Fox, Zak Sabbath, Black Hat Matt, Varg Vikernes, Olivia Hill, Holden Shearer, etc.) because I always end up putting my foot in my mouth.

Hey SHARK, if you want, I'd love to see you over at RPG Pub since I'm a lot more active there than I am here. I think you're a cool dude and a plain blunt speaker and I'm starting a Play By Post over there that I would love to have you join.

Of course, if you don't have the time or just aren't interested, I understand completely. I'll still be here too.

Also, if you're interested, I just launched a brand new RPG blog today, linked below in my signature.

(stops shameless self-promotion)

Seriously though, I am disgusted by Daniel Fox and his hypocrisy.

Didn't James Gunn write something for their new Art of D&D book?  Why haven't they disavowed him too?

ps- that book is the best thing wotc has ever published, probably due to the fact they didnt write it

Is Olivia Hill really David A. Hill?  If so I hope he gets targeted by his own sjw witch hunting mob.  Fucker had his G+ buddies dog piled me.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075593Is Olivia Hill really David A. Hill?  If so I hope he gets targeted by his own sjw witch hunting mob.  Fucker had his G+ buddies dog piled me.

Indeed, Olivia Hill really is the Bolshevik scumbag formerly known as David A. Hill.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075598Indeed, Olivia Hill really is the Bolshevik scumbag formerly known as David A. Hill.

Greetings!

Sammy, Sammy! So, why the fuck did David A. Hill, a man--change his name to that of a woman's name, of Olivia Hill? What is it with the tidal wave of feminine men in this country? Every fucking man wants so desperately to be a woman. And you wonder why so many people in foreign countries laugh at us? They laugh at us and ridicule us because we have whole hordes of men that want to be women, and so many of our women trying so desperately to be men.

Sad, Sammy.:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1075599Greetings!

Sammy, Sammy! So, why the fuck did David A. Hill, a man--change his name to that of a woman's name, of Olivia Hill? What is it with the tidal wave of feminine men in this country? Every fucking man wants so desperately to be a woman. And you wonder why so many people in foreign countries laugh at us? They laugh at us and ridicule us because we have whole hordes of men that want to be women, and so many of our women trying so desperately to be men.

Sad, Sammy.:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Basically, Hill decided to adopt a transgender identity out of nowhere, and it is eerily convenient for someone like Hill, who can now cry "transphobia" to deflect criticism of their well-documented reprehensible behavior and viewpoints

Hill is a literal Anarcho-Communist who has engaged in apologism for Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Trotsky, as well as doxxing, harassment, and threats of violence against people in the RPG industry.

Hill has even doxxed, threatened, and targeted other left-leaning RPG developers solely because the person worked for a company that Hill has a personal vendetta against.

Despite being a "listen and believe" fake feminist who allegedly identifies as a woman, Hill is a notorious friend and supporter of Matthew "Black Hat Matt" MacFarland.

Black Hat Matt is a known sexual predator who has raped several women, including women who were minors at the time, Hill supports him solely because Matt is a fellow communist and SJW.

Black Hat Matt has even fathered illegitimate children with some of the women he has abused, and immediately disavowed those children and refusing to support them or their mothers in any way.

Hill has also expressed a lot of racist views against Whites, Jews, and Japanese, as well as general Anti-American and Anti-Japanese sentiment, despite ironically being a white American citizen who is legally living in Japan on his wife's work visa.

TL;DR Hill is Bolshevik scum and if they were burning to death, I would not even piss on them to put them out.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075598Indeed, Olivia Hill really is the Bolshevik scumbag formerly known as David A. Hill.

Not going to lie.  When I heard David A. Hill and Holden lost their jobs at Onyx Path I smiled.  Oh I did sent a complaint letter to White Wolf at the time out of sheer principle because you don't fuck over your freelancers.  I knew Rich Thomas was the bigger ass as he is free to scam off some idealistic progressive just as much as the shits like David A. Hill.

Still it felt so good to see that fucker get his.  For all the people David shit on he finally got his in a small way.  High light of the day for me.  

To think years ago I actually looked up to the asshole.  Man I was stupid.  Hell wasn't for David burning his bridges and pushing me under the bus I might be...  Actually no.  The fact I bothered to watch those anti Anita Saarkesian videos saved me.  David's hate mob just push me further into the truthful direction.

Still wondering how the Japanese government let that scum in.

If Hill really wants to be a woman so badly, maybe I can call some of my homeboys living in Japan and I'll see if maybe they can put a call out to the local Sukeban, Yakuza, or Uyoku-Dantai gangs to come over and give Hill a "visit" complete with a free Gender Reassignment Surgery procedure done with a rusty flea market mall katana or a dirty Ginsu knife. :cool: :D

If Hill really does have gender dysphoria syndrome (which I highly doubt), it'd be a net positive in their eyes! :D

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075603Still wondering how the Japanese government let that scum in.

Hill's wife is an English teacher with an educational work visa, Hill only got in because of their marriage.

I'd like to dedicate this song to that scumbag punk Olivia Hill.

This one goes out to you, you racist punk rock Bolshevik autogynephile!

[video=youtube;Nw9QJ4LV6L0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw9QJ4LV6L0[/youtube]

Anime rules, Communism sucks! Better dead than woke!

Commie Punks Fuck Off!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075601TL;DR Hill is Bolshevik scum and if they were burning to death, I would not even piss on them to put them out.

I tangled with him once when I ran across him declaring Pundit a racist. I'm no fan of Pundit but I stopped to ask what evidence they had... little did I know that asking for evidence/proof would make me immediately suspect. So he and his posse dogpiled me... declaring no proof was necessary and it was somehow 'victim blaming' to ask.

Quote from: Simlasa;1075605I tangled with him once when I ran across him declaring Pundit a racist. I'm no fan of Pundit but I stopped to ask what evidence they had... little did I know that asking for evidence/proof would make me immediately suspect. So he and his posse dogpiled me... declaring no proof was necessary and it was somehow 'victim blaming' to ask.

I hope Hill slowly and painfully chokes to death on a pretzel.

Seriously, Hill is one of the bigger scumbags in the RPG industry.

Only sexual abusers like Black Hat Matt are worse than Hill in terms of vile attitudes and reprehensible behaviors.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075604Hill's wife is an English teacher with an educational work visa, Hill only got in because of their marriage.

Oh no...  Those poor students.  I meet his wife once.  Back in the day when David had his Machine Age rpg business he had a company site and chat.  He was hosting Chronicles of Darkness which I found odd as he made rpgs of his own and should be hosting those.  Why was he supporting another company in his own company site still beyond me.

So being a idiot and going into the danger zone I brought my friend along.  As I said I was a idiot.  So we started to talk to David's wife and at first things were cool.  Till my friend said his hunter players in another game outside the chat acted like fucktards.

She lost her shit.  She was raging like a psychopath and I tried to diffuse the situation by trying to be mediator.  Again dumb as fuck progressive lets watch the Young Turks at the time.  My god that was a fail.  She got pissed off with me.

So finally my friend left.  I pm David to complain and he didn't care.  So I left and apologize to my friend at yahoo chat, or was it skype.  Oh well point is I apologized to him.

So yeah I feel bad for the students.  They probably say something which causes her to explode and they have to deal with it.  No kid deserves that shit.

Quote from: Simlasa;1075605I tangled with him once when I ran across him declaring Pundit a racist. I'm no fan of Pundit but I stopped to ask what evidence they had... little did I know that asking for evidence/proof would make me immediately suspect. So he and his posse dogpiled me... declaring no proof was necessary and it was somehow 'victim blaming' to ask.

I warned David about Anita scamming people.  I thought I was doing him and his audience a favor.  Which was brave of me cause damn that was a dog piling.  You sjws got nothing on David A. Hill you little bitches.  The dog pile was so strong I became a conservative a few years later.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075601Basically, Hill decided to adopt a transgender identity out of nowhere, and it is eerily convenient for someone like Hill, who can now cry "transphobia" to deflect criticism of their well-documented reprehensible behavior and viewpoints

Hill is a literal Anarcho-Communist who has engaged in apologism for Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Trotsky, as well as doxxing, harassment, and threats of violence against people in the RPG industry.

Um, .... LITERAL?
A literal Anarcho-Communist ... as in being AGAINST AUTHORITY engaging in apologism for at least two if not three of the most AUTHORITARIAN TYPES there has ever been (Stalin & Mao, perhaps Lenin) .... ?
No, something is very wrong in that statement.
"Hill is a fake Anarcho-Communist who has engaged in apologism for Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Trotsky, as well as doxxing, harassment, and threats of violence against people in the RPG industry."
Now THAT looks correct.
Hm, this all in all makes him just look even more fake, by the way.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075601Hill has even doxxed, threatened, and targeted other left-leaning RPG developers solely because the person worked for a company that Hill has a personal vendetta against.

Despite being a "listen and believe" fake feminist who allegedly identifies as a woman, Hill is a notorious friend and supporter of Matthew "Black Hat Matt" MacFarland.

Black Hat Matt is a known sexual predator who has raped several women, including women who were minors at the time, Hill supports him solely because Matt is a fellow communist and SJW.

Black Hat Matt has even fathered illegitimate children with some of the women he has abused, and immediately disavowed those children and refusing to support them or their mothers in any way.

Hill has also expressed a lot of racist views against Whites, Jews, and Japanese, as well as general Anti-American and Anti-Japanese sentiment, despite ironically being a white American citizen who is legally living in Japan on his wife's work visa.

TL;DR Hill is Bolshevik scum and if they were burning to death, I would not even piss on them to put them out.

Yup, very much scum, i'm not sure if "Bolshevik" is the right word though, i mean, sure their movement turned into the anti-thesis of what they believed in ... but this guy seem deliberate in shitting on all ideals that he grabs upon to use.

Yeah, WotC didn't do the right thing, they just buried the bodies.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075593Is Olivia Hill really David A. Hill? If so I hope he gets targeted by his own sjw witch hunting mob. Fucker had his G+ buddies dog piled me.

Links?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075601Black Hat Matt has even fathered illegitimate children with some of the women he has abused, and immediately disavowed those children and refusing to support them or their mothers in any way.

Wait what?!?

Definitely links!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075604If Hill really wants to be a woman so badly, maybe I can call some of my homeboys living in Japan

Or maybe she should move out of Japan, because legally speaking she's not a woman there until she's sterilized, which while not as colorful as the scenario you suggest is monstrous nonetheless.

This isn't going to be a culture war worth winning if we keep being this horrible to each other.

How can I link it?  It goes all the way back to 2011 to 2013 I think.  It was when feminism frequency released her first video game videos.  With G+ dying it is going to be hard if not impossible.

Also do I need to prove SJWs are not afraid to dog pile on the internet?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075667How can I link it?  It goes all the way back to 2011 to 2013 I think.  It was when feminism frequency released her first video game videos.  With G+ dying it is going to be hard if not impossible.

Also do I need to prove SJWs are not afraid to dog pile on the internet?

Why do you think you don't need proof for accusations?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1075673Why do you think you don't need proof for accusations?

Greetings!

What? Snowman needs to *prove* that SJW's dogpile people online that dares to disagree with the SJW ideology? Really, Rhedyn? Come on, man. You gotta be fucking kidding me!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1075674Greetings!

What? Snowman needs to *prove* that SJW's dogpile people online that dares to disagree with the SJW ideology? Really, Rhedyn? Come on, man. You gotta be fucking kidding me!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I actually cared more about the Doc Sammy Quotes, I mistook Snowman for saying them.

Idc if he claims to be piled on from website that is closing soon.

Quote from: SHARK;1075674Greetings!

What? Snowman needs to *prove* that SJW's dogpile people online that dares to disagree with the SJW ideology? Really, Rhedyn? Come on, man. You gotta be fucking kidding me!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I guess it is cruel to dismiss the claims of victims when what happens to them is so commonly done by the demographic.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1075684I guess it is cruel to dismiss the claims of victims when what happens to them is so commonly done by the demographic.

Greetings!

Oh, well, I believe that victims should report crimes perpetrated against them to Law Enforcement. Furthermore, retaining an attorney to supervise and process the case. A professional investigation by Law Enforcement, prosecution, and trial, where the criminal is judged, and punished diligently. That is what justice is in our civilization.

I have actually experienced this judicial process first hand. I was a member of a jury for a capital offense trial every day, all day, for over three months. A man was convicted for his murdering an innocent woman. I then agreed to sentence the vicious criminal to be executed.

That is what justice looks like, and the proper--and lawful--process for it. The victim gains some measure of justice, and the criminal is punished.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rhedyn;1075673Why do you think you don't need proof for accusations?

You can disbelieve me all you want then.  I don't have have the evidence.  Just keep in mind you need to ask Simlasa for links too if you want to keep it fair.

Edit:  Not like any laws were broken, or I was threaten.  I just had a shitty experience and a story to tell.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075703You can disbelieve me all you want then.  I don't have have the evidence.  Just keep in mind you need to ask Simlasa for links too if you want to keep it fair.

Greetings!

No worries, my friend. I don't need to see "Links" to SJW's dogpiling on you or anyone else that disagrees with them. I know exactly what liberals are like. I've seen them do their mob-fest right in front of me in numerous classes at my university. The crying, the shrieking, the hysterical accusations that someone that disagrees with them is a warmonger, a nazi, a misogynist, a homophobe, a racist, and on and on. I've seen them do this in classes of 50 students, 100 students, as well as at university debates with 1,000 and more people present. This is and has been the liberal playbook for many years, in person. I've also seen them behave this way online, at other websites, years ago. Again, standard emotionally manipulative, immature, intellectually disingenuous behavior. It's all the behaviour of degenerate, SJW demagogues, my friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So will they be removing all the consultant credits from the next print run of the 5e books?

I checked and the latest version of Basic has no consultant credits. But that may be a change from last year so this Beyond removal may be just copying the Basics removal?

But.

I can see no indicator of when this latest Basic was last edited. Soooo. Who knows? My older copies from prior to 2018 still have the credits. But those were not one consolidated file like this new Basic is?

Also this is up on the WOTC site and no mention of removing anyone else so curiouser and curiouser.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/dndstatement (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/dndstatement)

Eh with all the "Sage Advice" and Errata, it's a different game than when it started. Not to mention all the splats and unearthed arcana. This is basically Jeremy Crawford's version of the original 5e now.

Quote from: SHARK;1075572Greetings!

Thanks, Sammy. Well, unfortunately, as Pundit mentioned, WOTC is in the clear by simply removing the entire Consultant Credit.

Apparently, Daniel Fox is also entirely free to go about the public square spreading lies, maliciously slandering Pundit, besmirching Pundit's character at every opportunity, while he promotes lists of hated people to be targeted on a constant basis by the ever-increasing mobs of SJW fanatics that Fox gleefully encourages. All such activity contributing to the public disparagement of Pundit's reputation, and furthermore damaging Pundit's present and future business and commercial opportunities.

Personally, I am dismayed that such behaviour is legal, and that Pundit has no legal recourse to adress such terrible behaviour by Daniel "Zweihander" Fox.

That is not merely sad, but tragic. It is unjust. I hope that Pundit prevails and thrives in great success.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I think it's hilarious that every time Fox has posted a link to one of my blogs claiming "RPGPundit is X" and quoting a single line from it, the blog itself directly contradicts his point.

Of course, I'm guessing Fox is gambling on the fact that a lot of people never actually click through to the source material.

Quote from: Simlasa;1075605I tangled with him once when I ran across him declaring Pundit a racist. I'm no fan of Pundit but I stopped to ask what evidence they had... little did I know that asking for evidence/proof would make me immediately suspect. So he and his posse dogpiled me... declaring no proof was necessary and it was somehow 'victim blaming' to ask.

I don't think Hill declaring themselves transgender is all that relevant. But stuff like this IS relevant.  Not to mention that Hill was among those who CHEERED the people making Mandy's life utterly miserable, sending her death threats and accosting her (as she mentions in her facebook post) and treated Mandy as if she were absolute scum, right up to the last second of thinking Mandy was on "the other side".

It tells me that Hill doesn't give a fuck about women, or the abuse of women.

Today Wizards made a statement on twitter that they were not going to include Zak's name in the credits of the next printing of the PHB. They gave no indication of whether they were going to still include the rest of us who were Consultants.

Again, if Wizards removes all the Consultant credits, it's a bitch move but there's not much to be done about it. But if they should remove mine along with Zak's just to placate these fucking Stalinists, there will be hell to pay.

Starting with my pushing the nuclear button and publishing the Mearls Emails.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075769I think it's hilarious that every time Fox has posted a link to one of my blogs claiming "RPGPundit is X" and quoting a single line from it, the blog itself directly contradicts his point.

Of course, I'm guessing Fox is gambling on the fact that a lot of people never actually click through to the source material.

Greetings!

LOL! Yeah, Pundit! That made me laugh. But yes, I imagine quite clearly that you're right. Most people are entirely lazy, and *won't* click the links that Fox provides under his hateful declarations. So, they just go away, assuming that Fox "proved" or "documented" Pundit being X.

And yes, I followed a link, read your blog post, watched your blog video thing; and you contradicted everything that Fox was claiming. There wasn't even a close connection. It struck me as such bold lying, blatant disregard for the content of what you actually said, and what you were actually discussing, it really made me angry towards Fox. His swarmy, fake cheerfulness, and his blatant attempt at character assassination towards you is just so, *dishonourable*. I became disgusted with his stupid game book, his company, his online posts, and him as a person. Sometimes, Pundit, people accuse you of being extreme, exagerating, or being hyperbolic. You really are quite justified in hating Daniel Fox. He is a terrible, dishonourable human being.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075769I think it's hilarious that every time Fox has posted a link to one of my blogs claiming "RPGPundit is X" and quoting a single line from it, the blog itself directly contradicts his point.

Of course, I'm guessing Fox is gambling on the fact that a lot of people never actually click through to the source material.

That's because they don't give a rat's ass about the "truth". They don't give a rat's ass about "justice". They don't give a rat's ass about anyone on this forum. They're willing to do whatever they can to destroy you and anyone remotely associated with you. Including anyone from this forum that has ever remotely agreed with you on any topic.

But you know this.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075770I don't think Hill declaring themselves transgender is all that relevant. But stuff like this IS relevant.  Not to mention that Hill was among those who CHEERED the people making Mandy's life utterly miserable, sending her death threats and accosting her (as she mentions in her facebook post) and treated Mandy as if she were absolute scum, right up to the last second of thinking Mandy was on "the other side".

It tells me that Hill doesn't give a fuck about women, or the abuse of women.

Wait Hill is backing up Mandy?  Is there a link?

So Daniel just claimed me defending my right not to have my name dragged through the mud and associated with an abuser I had no connection to (but, let's all remember, Daniel Fox did have a personal and business relationship with!) is "blackmail". How funny. Hi, Daniel!

Quote from: Grognard101;1075404WOW - this is crazy amount of fall out. Wizards must have given in to the SJWs on Twitter to deplatform consultants.

URGGGG

D&D Beyond just sounds gay to me.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1075750Eh with all the "Sage Advice" and Errata, it's a different game than when it started. Not to mention all the splats and unearthed arcana. This is basically Jeremy Crawford's version of the original 5e now.

Nope. They issued errata saying only errata counts and statements from people who work for WOTC (including Crawford, and including sage advice and UA) don't count as official content.

So errata yes (and there is very little of that) and splats yes (though it's hard to apply the term splat to the very small number of expansion books none of which are in a splat format) and the rest of it is not "official" content.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1075801D&D Beyond just sounds gay to me.

It's pretty asexual.

Who cares?

Mike Mearls needs to be fired for hiring ZakS and Pundit!

Mearls KNEW [fill in today's SJW buzzwords] and thus must be PURGED!!!

Okay you kids with Twitter, go make it happen.

THE LOLZ MUST FLOW!!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1075806Mike Mearls needs to be fired for hiring ZakS and Pundit!

Mearls KNEW [fill in today's SJW buzzwords] and thus must be PURGED!!!

Okay you kids with Twitter, go make it happen.

THE LOLZ MUST FLOW!!!

But Mike Mearls is credited with saving D&D.......

Quote from: Razor 007;1075808But Mike Mearls is credited with saving D&D.......

But he hired Zak and Pundit! Under our current regime of Guilt By Association, doesn't that qualify Mearls for some UnPersoning?  

And who knows what Mearls might have done / said / thought 20+ years ago that could be declared worthy of Twitter Pillory?

Plus Mearls is a pasty boy. That's Save vs. SJW with Disadvantage!

Quote from: Razor 007;1075808But Mike Mearls is credited with saving D&D.......

Didn't he admit to killing 4e on purpose so he could make 5e?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1075836Didn't he admit to killing 4e on purpose so he could make 5e?

That's what Razor just said....Mearls was credited with saving D&D. :D

Quote from: Rhedyn;1075836Didn't he admit to killing 4e on purpose so he could make 5e?

I'm not so sure about that...

4e was already doing a very good job of killing itself.

It seems like there's a lot of renewed interest in 4e now that it's been replaced.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1075845It seems like there's a lot of renewed interest in 4e now that it's been replaced.

   It's probably because it doesn't have to carry the whole weight of Being D&D and Carrying On The Tradition any more, so it can be appreciated for its own merits. It didn't do a very good job of Carrying On the Tradition--although it was better at reimagining a lot of those elements than people give it credit for--but it was a fine game in its own right.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1075846It's probably because it doesn't have to carry the whole weight of Being D&D and Carrying On The Tradition any more, so it can be appreciated for its own merits. It didn't do a very good job of Carrying On the Tradition--although it was better at reimagining a lot of those elements than people give it credit for--but it was a fine game in its own right.

4e is also now a complete edition while just the PH and first MM were rather incomplete for a 3e D&D replacement.

Now a lot of people here do not appreciate 3e D&D, but 4e did a good job at making that level of complication playable without tons of system mastery. If 4e in it's current form came out when 4e first did, it might have killed 3.X before Pathfinder ever got off the ground. It had the same issue PF2e is going to have, offering a new rules heavy game that just lacks the content of the older one and no one is done yet with all the content for the older game.

5e at least came with the benefit that you could run 0e-2e modules on easy mode with it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1075827And who knows what Mearls might have done / said / thought 20+ years ago that could be declared worthy of Twitter Pillory?

He did write that negative review of Keep on the Borderlands 20 years ago.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1075852Now a lot of people here do not appreciate 3e D&D, but 4e did a good job at making that level of complication playable without tons of system mastery. If 4e in it's current form came out when 4e first did, it might have killed 3.X before Pathfinder ever got off the ground. It had the same issue PF2e is going to have, offering a new rules heavy game that just lacks the content of the older one and no one is done yet with all the content for the older game.

One of the problems with 4E is the official adventures published in its first year were spectacularly ill-suited to the system. 4E is not a good choice for dungeon-crawls. It wasn't until the Essentials era that WotC realized what kind of adventures worked best with 4E.

Everyone I talk to about Essentials though says it just gutted what people actually -liked- about 4E (among those who liked it). I've been discouraged from using it.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1075862Everyone I talk to about Essentials though says it just gutted what people actually -liked- about 4E (among those who liked it). I've been discouraged from using it.

   The class builds can feel that way ... but the DM material (adventures, monster books, etc.) is, by all reports, 4E firing on all cylinders.

Quote from: Rhedyn;10758525e at least came with the benefit that you could run 0e-2e modules on easy mode with it.

I thought I was the only one did that! :D

I got my start in 5e running converted Dyson's Delve (BX/LL) & Caverns of Thracia (3e version). Not having too much of a revolving door of dead PCs was a definite plus.

Edit: This thread seems to have drifted into talking about RPGs?! :eek:

This made me laugh:

Quote from: Simlasa;1075605I tangled with him once when I ran across him declaring Pundit a racist. I'm no fan of Pundit but I stopped to ask what evidence they had... little did I know that asking for evidence/proof would make me immediately suspect. So he and his posse dogpiled me... declaring no proof was necessary and it was somehow 'victim blaming' to ask.

Quote from: SHARK;1075674Greetings!

What? Snowman needs to *prove* that SJW's dogpile people online that dares to disagree with the SJW ideology? Really, Rhedyn? Come on, man. You gotta be fucking kidding me!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Of course, one reason I laughed is that Shark very obviously paints large groups of individuals with the same brush - the very behavior that liberals accuse all the various 'ists' of doing...  

Quote from: SHARK;1075705No worries, my friend. I don't need to see "Links" to SJW's dogpiling on you or anyone else that disagrees with them. I know exactly what liberals are like.

For what it's worth, I don't think that removing Zak's name from the credits is the appropriate response, even if he is a piece of shit.  I can understand how they'd prefer not to associate with someone who they have deep disagreements with, but trying to pretend that they didn't consult with him is factually wrong and cowardly.  If they have a problem with his actions and support believe the accusations against him, they should actually say that.  If they don't believe the accusations, they don't HAVE to say anything, but it certainly would be nice toward Zak S if they did.  

Of course, what I'd have liked to see is them take a moment to address that there can be a lot of hostility to new people entering the hobby, and since the hobby largely started as groups of white guys playing on University Campuses, that the hobby can be unwelcoming to women and people of color.  Fantasy is enriched when more people contribute their stories - D&D should aim for inclusiveness because more options are better.  Nobody can make you use something you don't like at your table - encouraging more people to follow their passion in this hobby is a good thing.  Perhaps in the future in addition to mechanics, they should include consultants to help make game releases more representative and therefore more popular.  I certainly think that a more welcoming hobby with more active players is good for someone like me.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1075862Everyone I talk to about Essentials though says it just gutted what people actually -liked- about 4E (among those who liked it). I've been discouraged from using it.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1075863The class builds can feel that way ... but the DM material (adventures, monster books, etc.) is, by all reports, 4E firing on all cylinders.

Pretty much that. I am one of the proponents of using Essentials if you are going to play 4E. I don't even have as much of a problem with the builds. I just feel like they stripped them down and focused them because in 4E all of the classes are so balanced anyhow. its like they tried to sweep the character generation out of the way so you just skipped straight to personality development. But if there was ever an edition that could have used some random background generation, this was it.

Quote from: S'mon;1075864Edit: This thread seems to have drifted into talking about RPGs?! :eek:

Imagine all the people living for today... eww hoo hoo, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one......

No your right, I don't need the ban hammer for derailing a thread to talk about gaming.

So my two cents, some of these people are ass hats and deserve to be called out but I am so tired of the virtue signaling and social justice lynch mobs. The last straw for me was James Raggi's post on Facebook where he feel he has disavow a writer (Smith) that has been convicted of absolutely....nothing yet.

Even I think he is an ass hat (but I can separate my feelz from my facts).

As stated up stream, unless there is push back it keeps happening so I am done with LotFP.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075868Of course, what I'd have liked to see is them take a moment to address that there can be a lot of hostility to new people entering the hobby, and since the hobby largely started as groups of white guys playing on University Campuses, that the hobby can be unwelcoming to women and people of color.  Fantasy is enriched when more people contribute their stories - D&D should aim for inclusiveness because more options are better.  Nobody can make you use something you don't like at your table - encouraging more people to follow their passion in this hobby is a good thing.  Perhaps in the future in addition to mechanics, they should include consultants to help make game releases more representative and therefore more popular.  I certainly think that a more welcoming hobby with more active players is good for someone like me.

What are you like?

I don't think players here in London face any race or sex barriers to joining a group, but I see you're in Knoxville, supposedly the most segregated city in the USA, so I guess your mileage may well vary.

Quote from: Haffrung;1075860One of the problems with 4E is the official adventures published in its first year were spectacularly ill-suited to the system. 4E is not a good choice for dungeon-crawls. It wasn't until the Essentials era that WotC realized what kind of adventures worked best with 4E.

I think "minions" work better for common dungeon fodder. Long dragged out random encounters where the minis come out doesn't seem like a great pattern to get into for a "Mega-Dungeon". My 3e games tended to also have "3-5 room dungeons" because of similar problems.

5e still has the HP inflation issue, but since "low level" things can still hurt you, you can have defacto 4e minions in a dungeon without the "meta" minion rules. (What's the real difference between a 5th level 5e fighter running across a 7 HP goblin and a 10th level 4e fighter running across a Vampire Spawn Bloodhunter minion?)

Quote from: Rhedyn;10758805e still has the HP inflation issue, but since "low level" things can still hurt you, you can have defacto 4e minions in a dungeon without the "meta" minion rules.

The critters with Pack Tactics advtg (rats, kobolds) really seem built for that role, since even super-high-AC PCs are still going to get nibbled at. Hobgoblins are also very offensively lopsided with their huge damage, high AC, and low hp - they don't work vs low level PCs but great en masse at high level.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075868This made me laugh:





Of course, one reason I laughed is that Shark very obviously paints large groups of individuals with the same brush - the very behavior that liberals accuse all the various 'ists' of doing...  



For what it's worth, I don't think that removing Zak's name from the credits is the appropriate response, even if he is a piece of shit.  I can understand how they'd prefer not to associate with someone who they have deep disagreements with, but trying to pretend that they didn't consult with him is factually wrong and cowardly.  If they have a problem with his actions and support believe the accusations against him, they should actually say that.  If they don't believe the accusations, they don't HAVE to say anything, but it certainly would be nice toward Zak S if they did.  

Of course, what I'd have liked to see is them take a moment to address that there can be a lot of hostility to new people entering the hobby, and since the hobby largely started as groups of white guys playing on University Campuses, that the hobby can be unwelcoming to women and people of color.  Fantasy is enriched when more people contribute their stories - D&D should aim for inclusiveness because more options are better.  Nobody can make you use something you don't like at your table - encouraging more people to follow their passion in this hobby is a good thing.  Perhaps in the future in addition to mechanics, they should include consultants to help make game releases more representative and therefore more popular.  I certainly think that a more welcoming hobby with more active players is good for someone like me.

Greetings!

LOL! I'm painting SJW's with a broad brush?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon;1075864Edit: This thread seems to have drifted into talking about RPGs?! :eek:

Just in time too. For a couple of pages I thought I had wandered into Pundit's political Slough of Despond forum.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075868This made me laugh:

Ahh but you can laugh harder when you filter internet forums through: http://www.gizoogle.net

http://www.gizoogle.net/index.php?search=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.therpgsite.com%2Fshowthread.php%3F40197-Just-logged-into-D-amp-D-Beyond-and-they-removed-Zak-S-RPG-Pundit-and-other-consultants%26p%3D1075886%26posted%3D1%23post1075886&se=Gizoogle+Dis+Shiznit

Gizoogle lets you translate pretty much anything on the internet into gangsta slang.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075868...
Of course, what tha fuck I'd have was horny bout ta peep is dem take a moment ta address dat there can be a shitload of hostilitizzle ta freshly smoked up playas enterin tha hobby, n' since tha hobby largely started as crewz of white muthafuckas playin on Universitizzle Campuses, dat tha hobby can be unwelcomin ta dem hoes n' playaz of color. Shiiit, dis aint no joke. Fantasy is enriched when mo' playas contribute they stories - D&D should aim fo' inclusivenizz cuz mo' options is mo' betta n' shit. No Muthafucka can make you use suttin' you don't like at yo' table - encouragin mo' playas ta follow they boner up in dis hobby be a phat thang. Perhaps up in tha future up in addizzle ta mechanics, they should include consultants ta help make game releases mo' representatizzle n' therefore mo' popular. Shiiit, dis aint no joke. I certainly be thinkin dat a mo' welcomin hobby wit mo' actizzle playas is phat fo' one of mah thugs like mah dirty ass.

This. This is better.

After all the work I did to translate it FROM gangsta'.

Quote from: Haffrung;1075860One of the problems with 4E is the official adventures published in its first year were spectacularly ill-suited to the system. 4E is not a good choice for dungeon-crawls. It wasn't until the Essentials era that WotC realized what kind of adventures worked best with 4E.

What kind of adventures work best? I only played 4E a few times, I assumed it was designed for dungeon crawls.

If anyone wants to see 4e at its best, buy the 4e version of Gamma World.

For me, that's 4e at its finest incarnation (so far).

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075868Of course, what I'd have liked to see is them take a moment to address that there can be a lot of hostility to new people entering the hobby, and since the hobby largely started as groups of white guys playing on University Campuses, that the hobby can be unwelcoming to women and people of color.

What a fucking crock of shit.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1075876The last straw for me was James Raggi's post on Facebook where he feel he has disavow a writer (Smith) that has been convicted of absolutely....nothing yet.

LOL. So Raggi finally bows to the SJW mob?

The more WOTC keeps bowing down to the SJW's and their agenda of censorship and punk rock communism, possibly compromising the integrity of D&D 5E in the process, the more I think our government really should enact a second March To The Sea.

Only this new March To The Sea will be in the West Coast instead of the South, the military will be targeting Antifa instead of the Confederate Army, seizing control of universities and Silicon Valley instead of plantations and railroads, and burning down Portland instead of Atlanta.

Hurrah! Hurrah! We'll bring the jubilee!
Hurrah! Hurrah! So expression can be free!
We'll drive the Antifa commies back into the sea!
While we are marching to Portland!

[video=youtube;Yka2hCrKyso]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yka2hCrKyso[/youtube]

So Zak S's business associate and fake-feminist Daniel Fox continues to try to distract from his own deep connections to Zak by claiming now that I have tried to "blackmail" Mike Mearls, and misrepresenting the notion that I'm "threatening" Wizards. All the little Stalinists have come out to Reddit to demand I be Unpersoned (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/asj9z9/rpgpundit_threatens_to_publishing_sic_the_mearls/?sort=new).

All this to hide the fact that he was collaborting with Zak in spite of Zak's very well-known previous reputation. Disgusting.

If I were Mearls I'd just square up whatever internal allies would be required to weather whatever storm is in there, and release the emails myself.

It may not be blackmail, but letting someone dance around with the digital equivalent of envelopes in their hand, saying "I know a secret" isn't very seemly for either of you.

Leverage is ephemeral, but it's built either on mass, or mass's inability to dance.  One is systemic and one is situational.  Be sure you have what you think you have.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1075935LOL. So Raggi finally bows to the SJW mob?

Yeah he came out in a FB post and stated he would no longer do more print runs of anything that Smith gets writing royalties. Apparently there are some things where Smith got an editing credit and Raggi will print those.

I guess the kicker was that Raggi had no interest in losing money that was already spent at the printers but was ok with putting things out of print that could make money.

The whole thing seemed half assed on Raggi's part which made his disavowing of Smith seem even more rediculous. Why bow down to the SJW mob if you are not going to buy in? The SJW  is like a wild animal, feed them once and they are coming back for more.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1075935If anyone wants to see 4e at its best, buy the 4e version of Gamma World.

For me, that's 4e at its finest incarnation (so far).

Indeed. Too bad WOTC totally screwed it up.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075939So Zak S's business associate and fake-feminist Daniel Fox continues to try to distract from his own deep connections to Zak by claiming now that I have tried to "blackmail" Mike Mearls, and misrepresenting the notion that I'm "threatening" Wizards. All the little Stalinists have come out to Reddit to demand I be Unpersoned (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/asj9z9/rpgpundit_threatens_to_publishing_sic_the_mearls/?sort=new).

All this to hide the fact that he was collaborting with Zak in spite of Zak's very well-known previous reputation. Disgusting.

I don't know Daniel Fox from a hole in the wall (though I don't especially like what little I do know), but this post sure does look like an attempt at coercion if not blackmail. And you wrote it, right? So, it seems that you gave him the ammunition for this latest salvo. Maybe you should have thought twice before threatening the "nuclear button".

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075771Today Wizards made a statement on twitter that they were not going to include Zak's name in the credits of the next printing of the PHB. They gave no indication of whether they were going to still include the rest of us who were Consultants.

Again, if Wizards removes all the Consultant credits, it's a bitch move but there's not much to be done about it. But if they should remove mine along with Zak's just to placate these fucking Stalinists, there will be hell to pay.

Starting with my pushing the nuclear button and publishing the Mearls Emails.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075938T
Only this new March To The Sea will be in the West Coast instead of the South, the military will be targeting Antifa instead of the Confederate Army, seizing control of universities and Silicon Valley instead of plantations and railroads, and burning down Portland instead of Atlanta.

This could very well be the least American thing I've ever seen.  Certainly if you liked America you would uphold her Constitution; to use Federal troops against protesters you would have to first show how the state(s) 'unable or unwilling to suppress violence that is in opposition to the constitutional rights of the people'.  Failure to do so would put you in violation of The Posse Comitatus Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act).  And of course, even if you went that far, a true conservative would be justifiably frightened by the use of federal power against any minority group.  "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." And of course, once that genie is out of the bottle, it is only a matter of time before it is turned on other 'enemies of the state'.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1075946Yeah he came out in a FB post and stated he would no longer do more print runs of anything that Smith gets writing royalties. Apparently there are some things where Smith got an editing credit and Raggi will print those.

I guess the kicker was that Raggi had no interest in losing money that was already spent at the printers but was ok with putting things out of print that could make money.

The whole thing seemed half assed on Raggi's part which made his disavowing of Smith seem even more rediculous. Why bow down to the SJW mob if you are not going to buy in? The SJW  is like a wild animal, feed them once and they are coming back for more.

Why bow down to the SJW mob at all?  That is the question.  They didn't person me, so they can't unperson me.  People need to get a backbone, and be themselves; without trying to win a popularity contest on the west coast.  Just be yourself.

Quote from: Razor 007;1075965Why bow down to the SJW mob at all?  That is the question.  They didn't person me, so they can't unperson me.  People need to get a backbone, and be themselves; without trying to win a popularity contest on the west coast.  Just be yourself.

I was with you right up until you took a bash on the west coast.

Quote from: Mistwell;1075966I was with you right up until you took a bash on the west coast.

There's something in the water out there.

Quote from: Razor 007;1075969There's something in the water out there.

You only think that because you're literally drinking some of the most toxic water in the United States  (https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/local/2017/07/28/whats-your-drinking-water-mississippi/510726001/)down in Mississippi.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075960This could very well be the least American thing I've ever seen.  Certainly if you liked America you would uphold her Constitution; to use Federal troops against protesters you would have to first show how the state(s) 'unable or unwilling to suppress violence that is in opposition to the constitutional rights of the people'.  Failure to do so would put you in violation of The Posse Comitatus Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act).  And of course, even if you went that far, a true conservative would be justifiably frightened by the use of federal power against any minority group.  "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." And of course, once that genie is out of the bottle, it is only a matter of time before it is turned on other 'enemies of the state'.

Yeah your full of shit.  You are defending people who are more than happy to destroy the first amendment.  They literally go out to beat people up just to intimidate others from speaking.  They are evil and deserve to have the army to stomp on their asses.

Quote from: Mistwell;1075971You only think that because you're literally drinking some of the most toxic water in the United States  (https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/local/2017/07/28/whats-your-drinking-water-mississippi/510726001/)down in Mississippi.

I guess I've been outed now.  Haha!!!

I've lived out of state, and I've traveled to more than 30 states.  I've gotten around a little bit.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075973Yeah your full of shit.  You are defending people who are more than happy to destroy the first amendment.  They literally go out to beat people up just to intimidate others from speaking.  They are evil and deserve to have the army to stomp on their asses.

I think actually just disagreeing with people, and using the law to imprison them when they break the law, is just peachy relative to things like civil wars. No, I do not think we need to gather armies to stomp those we disagree with.

Quote from: Mistwell;1075978I think actually just disagreeing with people, and using the law to imprison them when they break the law, is just peachy relative to things like civil wars. No, I do not think we need to gather armies to stomp those we disagree with.

That is not up to us now isn't it?  The first shot in the up coming civil war will most likely come from Antifa as they want to be violent.

Release the emails Pundit!

The March to the Sea might happen again, and I agree this time the target would be the West Coast. However, that's the end of the country as I don't know if we could recover from a 2nd Civil War.

Hopefully, the USA can just peacefully shatter and the opposing cultures can just go their separate ways.

And yes, I know that countries rarely break up peacefully. We can hope because there isn't a "United States" in the future at this current cultural trajectory.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075939All the little Stalinists have come out to Reddit to demand I be Unpersoned (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/asj9z9/rpgpundit_threatens_to_publishing_sic_the_mearls/?sort=new).

The ZakMandy shitshow is a huge coup for the Stalinists, so of course they're dancing in the streets looking for their next target. And you're neon.

And I agree with the socketpuppet above with 1 post, you should absolutely go nuclear and Release the Mearls Emails!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1075998And I agree with the socketpuppet above with 1 post, you should absolutely go nuclear and Release the Mearls Emails!!

yee haw

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075939So Zak S's business associate and fake-feminist Daniel Fox continues to try to distract from his own deep connections to Zak by claiming now that I have tried to "blackmail" Mike Mearls, and misrepresenting the notion that I'm "threatening" Wizards. All the little Stalinists have come out to Reddit to demand I be Unpersoned (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/asj9z9/rpgpundit_threatens_to_publishing_sic_the_mearls/?sort=new).

All this to hide the fact that he was collaborting with Zak in spite of Zak's very well-known previous reputation. Disgusting.

Idk about that thread. It seems pretty much half hate you, but most of them want whatever you have released anyways because they care more about going after Mearls than people they think are "conservative".

I think in their minds, being a known "conservative" is already "unpersoned" and little further effort is required.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075960Certainly if you liked America you would uphold her Constitution; to use Federal troops against protesters you would have to first show how the state(s) 'unable or unwilling to suppress violence that is in opposition to the constitutional rights of the people'.

Have you been ignoring all of the media coming out of Portland?  As an Oregonian, I can assure you, the leadership at the city (Portland) level and the state level support the violence that is antifa, and they are unwilling to suppress it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075960Failure to do so would put you in violation of The Posse Comitatus Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act).  And of course, even if you went that far, a true conservative would be justifiably frightened by the use of federal power against any minority group.

Antifa is, by and large, a bunch of whiny white kids.  Not a minority group.

Quote from: kythri;1076014Have you been ignoring all of the media coming out of Portland?  As an Oregonian, I can assure you, the leadership at the city (Portland) level and the state level support the violence that is antifa, and they are unwilling to suppress it.



Antifa is, by and large, a bunch of whiny white kids.  Not a minority group.

This dude gets it.

And for any SJW's out here who wish to oppose the Second March To The Sea or any lurkers from RPG.net, I present to you the following...

Bart Simpson Against Antifa
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Wow, this thread is really bringing out the nutbars. March to the sea? Bring out the army? LOL. I can just imagine overweight, wheezy 50-something dudes typing this stuff with nicotine-stained fingers. Peering out their shutters at night conjuring phantasms of Antifa hordes rampaging through the streets.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075973Yeah your full of shit.  You are defending people who are more than happy to destroy the first amendment.  They literally go out to beat people up just to intimidate others from speaking.  They are evil and deserve to have the army to stomp on their asses.

First of all, it's 'you're', not 'your'. That's not just me being pedantic, if you want your ideas to merit consideration you have to appear to have greater intellectual rigor than the typical 4th grader.  

Secondly, an argument that 'someone is going to do something bad, so I'm going to do something worse BEFORE THEY DO IT' is absolutely the worst way to structure a society.  You're literally calling for thought police.  Regarding the First Amendment, I see it 'defended' in a lot of incorrect ways.  Like, what does it mean to you that the Government can't prohibit your free speech?  Do you think it means that everyone else owes you a platform?  

Thirdly, Facism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy.  Claiming that someone is both anti-fascist but also fascist is a little bizarre.  How can you be both at the same time?  Or are you saying that their opponents REALLY ARE trying to forcibly suppress them and they're justified to use the same tactics?  Or are you really saying that those tactics are only allowed when people you like do it?  

Here's what I'll say - I've been away from these boards for a while but you (@Snowman0147 and @Doc Sammy) are the biggest pair of pussies I've ever encountered.  If you have a problem with someone and your response is 'someone should beat them up for me', that's being a pussy.  Grow a pair and deal with the issue yourself using legal means including your first amendment right to say what you want to say.  And if you're willing to put your face in front of a fist, I'll be right there standing by you when you get the bastard that assaulted you thrown in jail.  

Tying this back to gaming, scorching the earth BEFORE YOUR OPPONENT HAS DONE ANYTHING WRONG is a problem.  That's why I don't think the consultants should have their credits removed.  I would be curious to know what agreement was made regarding granting credit; WotC may be firmly within their legal right (I don't know - I didn't see the agreement), but nobody is all good or all bad.  If Zak S had invented the smoke alarm, I wouldn't refuse to use it because he's a piece of shit.  Of course, if he invented a piece of shit, I wouldn't use it just because I liked him, either.  In this case, I think he's an ass in general, and I don't like his game-work, either.  I do think he probably has brought people into the hobby and I can see why people would find gaming with porn stars fascinating.  I don't think that associating with adult actresses or prostitutes is indicative of a poor moral standard - even Jesus did that!  Refusing to treat people as people is bad; but that's no reason that his actions shouldn't be discussed or have consequences.

Quote from: Aglondir;1075928What kind of adventures work best? I only played 4E a few times, I assumed it was designed for dungeon crawls.

Adventures with two, maybe three combat encounters in a session, where those combats have real importance and dramatic consequence. So more plot-driven games.

WotC never gets the adventures aligned with the system. When they had a system geared towards relatively few but highly dramatic and cinematic combats, they released combat-dense dungeon adventures. Now that they have a system geared for lots of attritional combats, they're publishing epic plot-driven campaigns. I firmly believe Keep on the Shadowfell and Thunderspire Labyrinth are best suited to 5E, while Curse of Strahd and Waterdeep Dragon Heist would play better with 4E.

Quote from: Haffrung;1076021Adventures with two, maybe three combat encounters in a session, where those combats have real importance and dramatic consequence. So more plot-driven games.

That's how our "good" homebrew 3e campaigns worked. I've never really liked the Paizo APs because they kill a lot of time with time waster fights and extremely contrived dungeons that never seemed to fit a mildly optimized 3e group or a mildly optimized Pathfinder group.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076018First of all, it's 'you're', not 'your'. That's not just me being pedantic, if you want your ideas to merit consideration you have to appear to have greater intellectual rigor than the typical 4th grader.  

Secondly, an argument that 'someone is going to do something bad, so I'm going to do something worse BEFORE THEY DO IT' is absolutely the worst way to structure a society.  You're literally calling for thought police.  Regarding the First Amendment, I see it 'defended' in a lot of incorrect ways.  Like, what does it mean to you that the Government can't prohibit your free speech?  Do you think it means that everyone else owes you a platform?  

Thirdly, Facism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy.  Claiming that someone is both anti-fascist but also fascist is a little bizarre.  How can you be both at the same time?  Or are you saying that their opponents REALLY ARE trying to forcibly suppress them and they're justified to use the same tactics?  Or are you really saying that those tactics are only allowed when people you like do it?  

Here's what I'll say - I've been away from these boards for a while but you (@Snowman0147 and @Doc Sammy) are the biggest pair of pussies I've ever encountered.  If you have a problem with someone and your response is 'someone should beat them up for me', that's being a pussy.  Grow a pair and deal with the issue yourself using legal means including your first amendment right to say what you want to say.  And if you're willing to put your face in front of a fist, I'll be right there standing by you when you get the bastard that assaulted you thrown in jail.  

Tying this back to gaming, scorching the earth BEFORE YOUR OPPONENT HAS DONE ANYTHING WRONG is a problem.  That's why I don't think the consultants should have their credits removed.  I would be curious to know what agreement was made regarding granting credit; WotC may be firmly within their legal right (I don't know - I didn't see the agreement), but nobody is all good or all bad.  If Zak S had invented the smoke alarm, I wouldn't refuse to use it because he's a piece of shit.  Of course, if he invented a piece of shit, I wouldn't use it just because I liked him, either.  In this case, I think he's an ass in general, and I don't like his game-work, either.  I do think he probably has brought people into the hobby and I can see why people would find gaming with porn stars fascinating.  I don't think that associating with adult actresses or prostitutes is indicative of a poor moral standard - even Jesus did that!  Refusing to treat people as people is bad; but that's no reason that his actions shouldn't be discussed or have consequences.

I have used my legal first amendment rights to speak out against Antifa and other authoritarians, and yes, I have been physically assaulted for it in the past, by my own brother no less!

My brother is a member of Antifa (in fact, he is an Antifa ringleader here in Roanoke, VA) and when I pressed charges against him, the court case kept getting delayed and was eventually dismissed.

That was in Virginia, a swing state that had a history of being a conservative stronghold prior to the early 2000's. Imagine if this happened in a place where Antifa actually has sway over local governments and the university systems like Portland, Seattle, Brooklyn, or Berkeley.

Antifa is a terrorist group and a threat to our very freedoms, including both the First Amendment and the Second Amendment. And unlike the Nazi assholes, Antifa is largely unimpeded in their efforts at terrorism and tyranny.

THAT is why I am advocating for a Second March To The Sea!

And I'm not in my fifties, I'm twenty-five, thank you very much!

Now, if you will excuse me, I have a campaign setting to work on and promote (https://bigfatpaulierpg.blogspot.com/2019/02/cavalier-hearts-rpg-campaign-setting.html)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076024when I pressed charges against him, the court case kept getting delayed and was eventually dismissed.

And yet these forums are very supportive of due legal process before responding to allegations.  It's almost like the legal system can't always be replied on to address problems of violence, especially when there is a lot of difficulty in both proving that it happened (you could have punched yourself) or that a specific individual did it (it could have been any of the people he leads, not him).  With so much plausible deniability, maybe demanding police involvement/convictions isn't a reasonable standard?  

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076024THAT is why I am advocating for a Second March To The Sea!

That's reprehensible.  Even if there were large numbers of violent protesters (there's not) who were eager to dismantle our civil protections (they're not) and you were certain the military would eliminate them all (they wouldn't), there are still a lot of Americans who share your political views who would get hurt, too.  How many innocent people are you willing to hurt to get one guilty person?  

Don't give me any crap about SJWs going after the wrong people if you're vociferously advocating it yourself.  What a obvious hypocritical double standard.  
 

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076024And I'm not in my fifties, I'm twenty-five, thank you very much!

You do not appear to be responding to anything I wrote.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076030And yet these forums are very supportive of due legal process before responding to allegations.  It's almost like the legal system can't always be replied on to address problems of violence, especially when there is a lot of difficulty in both proving that it happened (you could have punched yourself) or that a specific individual did it (it could have been any of the people he leads, not him).  With so much plausible deniability, maybe demanding police involvement/convictions isn't a reasonable standard?  




That's reprehensible.  Even if there were large numbers of violent protesters (there's not) who were eager to dismantle our civil protections (they're not) and you were certain the military would eliminate them all (they wouldn't), there are still a lot of Americans who share your political views who would get hurt, too.  How many innocent people are you willing to hurt to get one guilty person?  

Don't give me any crap about SJWs going after the wrong people if you're vociferously advocating it yourself.  What a obvious hypocritical double standard.  

This is not a hypocritical double standard. This is war and the Commies have already fired the first shot.

No time for moral grandstanding, desperate times call for desperate measures!

Wow, what a shitshow this guy is ...

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076018Secondly, an argument that 'someone is going to do something bad ...

Eh, no they're already doing it. Not sure where you got the idea that anyone is claiming something is "going" to happen. The antifa ARE the thought police (or so they believe).

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076018Claiming that someone is both anti-fascist but also fascist is a little bizarre.  How can you be both at the same time?

No one is saying they're both. They're fascists, plain and simple. The only one calling them "anti-fascists" is themselves. Everyone else thinks its ironic.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076018deal with the issue yourself using legal means including your first amendment right to say what you want to say

Except that the Portland government shuts down any attempt to do so. And they keep arresting the guys with the faces getting punched, instead of the guys with the fists punching them.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076018Refusing to treat people as people is bad; but that's no reason that his actions shouldn't be discussed or have consequences.

Right, or even stuff he never did at all, just because you hate him. Due process is only for people you like, right?

I don't trust your ability to accurately determine appropriate targets.  'Everyone on the West Coast' would be inappropriate even if your accusations were justified.  But what you're really arguing for is radicalizing your opponent.  If I didn't shoot you, but I hear you are threatening to shoot me, what choice do I have now?  Once you advocate for violence or extermination, at least if your threat is credible, you provide a legal defense for self protection.

Quote from: Zalman;1076035Right, or even stuff he never did at all, just because you hate him. Due process is only for people you like, right?

No, due process is for crimes and is for everyone.  

There's a lot of bullshit that I won't accept that falls well short of criminal activity.  If someone is an asshole I can call them an asshole.  Zak is an asshole.  I know he's an asshole.  I don't need a court of law to confirm he is an asshole.  

Now, is he a rapist?  I don't know.  There appears to be a plausible allegation made by a witness, but the purported victim isn't making the allegation.  I think treating him as a rapist (ie, putting him in jail) wouldn't be appropriate without due process.  But I don't think that I should have to associate with him just because I'm not SURE that he did it.  

Doc Sammy is the one talking about using the extremely blunt force of an armed military intervention against American citizens.  He's wholesale abandoning any ideology of proportionate response - obviously because he doesn't like those people.  The whole point of due process is that it protects people who you don't like.  Maybe you could learn something about what happens when people think they are serving 'justice' (https://museumandmemorial.eji.org/) without it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076042No, due process is for crimes and is for everyone.  

There's a lot of bullshit that I won't accept that falls well short of criminal activity.  If someone is an asshole I can call them an asshole.  Zak is an asshole.  I know he's an asshole.  I don't need a court of law to confirm he is an asshole.  

Now, is he a rapist?  I don't know.  There appears to be a plausible allegation made by a witness, but the purported victim isn't making the allegation.  I think treating him as a rapist (ie, putting him in jail) wouldn't be appropriate without due process.  But I don't think that I should have to associate with him just because I'm not SURE that he did it.  

Doc Sammy is the one talking about using the extremely blunt force of an armed military intervention against American citizens.  He's wholesale abandoning any ideology of proportionate response - obviously because he doesn't like those people.  The whole point of due process is that it protects people who you don't like.  Maybe you could learn something about what happens when people think they are serving 'justice' (https://museumandmemorial.eji.org/) without it.

Once again, Godwin's Law is invoked! Typical of an SJW with no real argument, just moral platitudes.

If you can invoke Germany in 1933, then I can invoke Russia in 1917!

And I do believe in Due Process. Your Antifa buddies don't.

I would hope everyone reads "march to the sea" as obvious satire. Purging large swaths of America because some college kids wear masks and assault people is clearly not a reasonable proposition.

If you do hold that position, you either need therapy or to unplug from the internet for awhile.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1076050I would hope everyone reads "march to the sea" as obvious satire. Purging large swaths of America because some college kids wear masks and assault people is clearly not a reasonable proposition.

If you do hold that position, you either need therapy or to unplug from the internet for awhile.

Yes, it was obvious satire.

David "Olivia" Hill is a scumbag, but he doesn't deserve to die. He just needs to shut the fuck up

Quote from: kythri;1076014Have you been ignoring all of the media coming out of Portland?  As an Oregonian, I can assure you, the leadership at the city (Portland) level and the state level support the violence that is antifa, and they are unwilling to suppress it.
Antifa is, by and large, a bunch of whiny white kids.  Not a minority group.

That's about right, and they are also cross-pollinated into several different movements and organizations, using them for cover.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076042Doc Sammy is the one talking about using the extremely blunt force of an armed military intervention against American citizens.  He's wholesale abandoning any ideology of proportionate response - obviously because he doesn't like those people.  The whole point of due process is that it protects people who you don't like.  Maybe you could learn something about what happens when people think they are serving 'justice' (https://museumandmemorial.eji.org/) without it.

Or maybe you could, since the antifa are actually the only people already doing this. They literally advocate and execute physical violence against people they don't like. Now. Already happening. Right before our eyes here in Portland.

Quote from: Zalman;1076054Or maybe you could, since the antifa are actually the only people already doing this. They literally advocate and execute physical violence against people they don't like. Now. Already happening. Right before our eyes here in Portland.

Just because you hit multiple people in the head with a bicycle lock doesn't mean you're a criminal. Geeze.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076047Once again, Godwin's Law is invoked! Typical of an SJW with no real argument, just moral platitudes.

If you can invoke Germany in 1933, then I can invoke Russia in 1917!

And I do believe in Due Process. Your Antifa buddies don't.

Let's do this...  You've made the claim that the United States Military should start a 'second march to the sea' multiple times.  You've made it before talking about Japan deporting Olivia to the United States; you've suggested it after talking about Japan deporting Olivia to the United States.  Obviously it is an inappropriate response to any sane adult, but I have no reason to believe that you qualify as one.  Further, I'm CERTAIN that not everyone that discusses RPGs is an adult and I'm fairly convinced that there are some that could not qualify as sane.  It's not satire when you suggest excessive tactics to accomplish your own aims - it's satire when you suggest excessive tactics to lampoon the types of things you're doing.  When you say 'every anti-fa should be tried for treason', it is satire if I suggest a march to the sea.  If you say 'march to the sea' there's nowhere left to go for satire.  Your methods are so monstrous that there is nothing someone could use to make you look crazy and overzealous.  That takes WORK.  

No, I don't think that was satire.  And if it was supposed to be, your repeated calls for it without any indication that you disavow the method is further suspect.  If you have a problem with the anit-fa, perhaps you should suggest what you actually want to see happen.  I'm pretty news savvy and I'm not going to use 'he started it' as some type of justification; people who break laws should go to jail.  Peaceful protests don't qualify.  Having someone join your peaceful protest who then starts a physical confrontation (whether they're actually associated with your organization or a 'false-flag operation'), they, as individuals should be held accountable and punished.  You can't demand that people who share your ideology be absolved of their crimes because they share your ideology - that becomes a double-standard and that is the biggest problem here.  

@Doc Sammy, you once again made a reading fail.  I didn't bring up the Holocaust or Hitler.  I didn't bring up Germany in 1933.  The website I linked was for a memorial to victims of lynchings primarily in the American South (where I live).  My 'moral platitudes' are not based on actions that happened one time in one place more than a half century ago.

Guys clearly deadDMwalking is a shit sjw troll with no life.  He is not even worth having a conversation.

@Doc Sammy sorry about what happen to you and your brother.  Identity politics is cancer which it is designed to break down and separate people.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076060Let's do this...  You've made the claim that the United States Military should start a 'second march to the sea' multiple times.  You've made it before talking about Japan deporting Olivia to the United States; you've suggested it after talking about Japan deporting Olivia to the United States.  Obviously it is an inappropriate response to any sane adult, but I have no reason to believe that you qualify as one.  Further, I'm CERTAIN that not everyone that discusses RPGs is an adult and I'm fairly convinced that there are some that could not qualify as sane.  It's not satire when you suggest excessive tactics to accomplish your own aims - it's satire when you suggest excessive tactics to lampoon the types of things you're doing.  When you say 'every anti-fa should be tried for treason', it is satire if I suggest a march to the sea.  If you say 'march to the sea' there's nowhere left to go for satire.  Your methods are so monstrous that there is nothing someone could use to make you look crazy and overzealous.  That takes WORK.  

No, I don't think that was satire.  And if it was supposed to be, your repeated calls for it without any indication that you disavow the method is further suspect.  If you have a problem with the anit-fa, perhaps you should suggest what you actually want to see happen.  I'm pretty news savvy and I'm not going to use 'he started it' as some type of justification; people who break laws should go to jail.  Peaceful protests don't qualify.  Having someone join your peaceful protest who then starts a physical confrontation (whether they're actually associated with your organization or a 'false-flag operation'), they, as individuals should be held accountable and punished.  You can't demand that people who share your ideology be absolved of their crimes because they share your ideology - that becomes a double-standard and that is the biggest problem here.  

@Doc Sammy, you once again made a reading fail.  I didn't bring up the Holocaust or Hitler.  I didn't bring up Germany in 1933.  The website I linked was for a memorial to victims of lynchings primarily in the American South (where I live).  My 'moral platitudes' are not based on actions that happened one time in one place more than a half century ago.

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Quote from: Snowman0147;1075979That is not up to us now isn't it?  The first shot in the up coming civil war will most likely come from Antifa as they want to be violent.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/Rhhr8D5mKSX7O/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076024I have used my legal first amendment rights to speak out against Antifa and other authoritarians, and yes, I have been physically assaulted for it in the past, by my own brother no less!...And I'm not in my fifties, I'm twenty-five, thank you very much! Now, if you will excuse me, I have a campaign setting to work on and promote

And I assume you and your brother are both still living at your parents house while you beat each other up, unsuccessfuly sue each other, and write amateur D&D campaign settings?

Mistwell:  You got a good source for some black hoods?  They're all sold out in Portland.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1076066Guys clearly deadDMwalking is a shit sjw troll with no life.  He is not even worth having a conversation.

This is an excellent example of Poisoning the Well (https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/140/Poisoning-the-Well).

Saying someone 'has no life' hasn't been an effective insult since 9th grade.  I don't know what you would consider 'no life', but I don't mind sharing.  I'm turning 40 this year.  I work for a large bank and I earned $75k last year; my wife has a PhD and made the same amount of money.  Together, we have a combined income of ~$150k.  It puts us pretty comfortable, but the money doesn't go as far as you think.  We have three girls, the youngest is 3 and it costs us ~$800/month for daycare.  We also have a car payment and student debt; our house (~300k square feet) costs us about $1k/month.  There's insurance and a car payment and utilities, but that still leaves some money left over to do fun things.  We can travel some - this year we'll be spending a week in Arizona and a week in Cape Cod.  I enjoy playing role playing games, and I definitely enjoy talking about RPGs online far more than I should.  I have a regular group that meets on Sunday afternoons via Google Hangouts.  I'm currently running the campaign, but I had been a player for a long time before starting my current campaign a few weeks ago.  We'll be having the third session this Sunday.  Most of the time I'm not spending on work or D&D goes to the family.  Sometimes it feels like I've surrendered my life with taking kids to Girl Scouts or karate and trying to get to the gym, but I enjoy myself.  This Saturday I'll be playing poker with work friends.  I don't know if he's still around, but I've met Jeff from these boards one time a few years ago - I don't think he'd be able to confirm all of this is true, but I'm sure he could confirm that I am an adult male; I know he saw at least two of my girls - maybe all three - and that I actually exist.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076071This is an excellent example of Poisoning the Well (https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/140/Poisoning-the-Well).

Saying someone 'has no life' hasn't been an effective insult since 9th grade.  I don't know what you would consider 'no life', but I don't mind sharing.  I'm turning 40 this year.  I work for a large bank and I earned $75k last year; my wife has a PhD and made the same amount of money.  Together, we have a combined income of ~$150k.  It puts us pretty comfortable, but the money doesn't go as far as you think.  We have three girls, the youngest is 3 and it costs us ~$800/month for daycare.  We also have a car payment and student debt; our house (~300k square feet) costs us about $1k/month.  There's insurance and a car payment and utilities, but that still leaves some money left over to do fun things.  We can travel some - this year we'll be spending a week in Arizona and a week in Cape Cod.  I enjoy playing role playing games, and I definitely enjoy talking about RPGs online far more than I should.  I have a regular group that meets on Sunday afternoons via Google Hangouts.  I'm currently running the campaign, but I had been a player for a long time before starting my current campaign a few weeks ago.  We'll be having the third session this Sunday.  Most of the time I'm not spending on work or D&D goes to the family.  Sometimes it feels like I've surrendered my life with taking kids to Girl Scouts or karate and trying to get to the gym, but I enjoy myself.  This Saturday I'll be playing poker with work friends.  I don't know if he's still around, but I've met Jeff from these boards one time a few years ago - I don't think he'd be able to confirm all of this is true, but I'm sure he could confirm that I am an adult male; I know he saw at least two of my girls - maybe all three - and that I actually exist.

I'll take "Shit that didn't happen" for $500

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076071This is an excellent example of Poisoning the Well (https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/140/Poisoning-the-Well).

Saying someone 'has no life' hasn't been an effective insult since 9th grade.  I don't know what you would consider 'no life', but I don't mind sharing.  I'm turning 40 this year.  I work for a large bank and I earned $75k last year; my wife has a PhD and made the same amount of money.  Together, we have a combined income of ~$150k.  It puts us pretty comfortable, but the money doesn't go as far as you think.  We have three girls, the youngest is 3 and it costs us ~$800/month for daycare.  We also have a car payment and student debt; our house (~300k square feet) costs us about $1k/month.  There's insurance and a car payment and utilities, but that still leaves some money left over to do fun things.  We can travel some - this year we'll be spending a week in Arizona and a week in Cape Cod.  I enjoy playing role playing games, and I definitely enjoy talking about RPGs online far more than I should.  I have a regular group that meets on Sunday afternoons via Google Hangouts.  I'm currently running the campaign, but I had been a player for a long time before starting my current campaign a few weeks ago.  We'll be having the third session this Sunday.  Most of the time I'm not spending on work or D&D goes to the family.  Sometimes it feels like I've surrendered my life with taking kids to Girl Scouts or karate and trying to get to the gym, but I enjoy myself.  This Saturday I'll be playing poker with work friends.  I don't know if he's still around, but I've met Jeff from these boards one time a few years ago - I don't think he'd be able to confirm all of this is true, but I'm sure he could confirm that I am an adult male; I know he saw at least two of my girls - maybe all three - and that I actually exist.

Hahahaahaha

HAHAHAHAHAA

Seriously, what a fucking loser to post this nonsense. "My mom says I'm handsome."

LOfuckingL

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076071This is an excellent example of Poisoning the Well (https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/140/Poisoning-the-Well).

Your own link contradicts your supposition.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076060The website I linked was for a memorial to victims of lynchings primarily in the American South (where I live).  My 'moral platitudes' are not based on actions that happened one time in one place more than a half century ago.

So they're based on actions that happened more than a full century ago, got it!

Quote from: WikipediaLynchings were most frequent from 1890 to the 1920s, with a peak in 1892.

Oh wait, you're referring to Jussie Smollett, huh?

This whole thread has been very illustrative of exactly the sort of mental gymnastics people perform in order to justify vilifying others without any evidence. These people are certain that both the legal system (Smollett) and the free market (WoTC) are down with their bigoted caste system of morality where righteousness is dependent on class, race, and gender. It's a good way to go out of business, or to go to jail.

Quote from: kythri;1076070Mistwell:  You got a good source for some black hoods?  They're all sold out in Portland.

I do! The Beauty House in Chicago (https://pagesix.com/2019/02/20/video-shows-brothers-in-jussie-smollett-case-buying-masks/)! Apparently they have a whole bunch of them and their security guard says nobody has really bought them since the 70s so I guess they have a lot of extra stock!

Greetings!

Jussie Smolett has been arrested bythe Chicago Police. He is being charged with multiple felonies. He is a worthless fucking criminal. The police have investigated the case--Smolett lied, and made the whole story up, and the "attack" was entirely fake, and staged. Smolett is a lying, racist, SJW scumbag.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1076083Greetings!

Jussie Smolett has been arrested bythe Chicago Police. He is being charged with multiple felonies. He is a worthless fucking criminal. The police have investigated the case--Smolett lied, and made the whole story up, and the "attack" was entirely fake, and staged. Smolett is a lying, racist, SJW scumbag.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Just watched the press conference with the BLACK chief of police. Are the SJWs going to call him a white nationalist, too?

EDIT: This thread should probably be moved...it's really not about gaming so much anymore. Also if anyone is interested: https://youtu.be/jg9vVMNi4N0

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076071Saying someone 'has no life' hasn't been an effective insult since 9th grade.  I don't know what you would consider 'no life', but I don't mind sharing...

Any amount of time spend on an internet forum is wasted time. While here, you have "no life". The more passionate you are about something on a forum the less life one has.

I hope you are enjoying yourself because forums are only meant to waste time.

Well I see this thread has turned back into another shit show of unrelated to gaming idiocy. I wonder if it can be moved out of the RPG forum and over into Pundit's Forum?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1076085Any amount of time spend on an internet forum is wasted time. While here, you have "no life". The more passionate you are about something on a forum the less life one has.

Then we have a contradiction.  If talking on these forums is proof of 'no life', then having 'no life' cannot be used as a justification not to have a conversation.  If it could, no conversation would be happening because everybody here would not be worth talking to on account of having no life.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076073I'll take "Shit that didn't happen" for $500

I think it says a lot about you that you can't accept simple factual statements as possibly being true.  Being married, having a job that pays decently well, having kids - these are all just normal things that people my age with college degrees have typically been able to attain.  When I was 25 I was making $35k per year working managing the seafood department of a supermarket while my wife was getting her PHD earning $15k per year as a grad student.  It's not supposed to be a competition; like, I'm sure there are people on these boards who earn more than me.  If Mistwell is a lawyer, he's probably one of them.  According to Google, the median lawyer salary is $115k.  Ignoring inconvenient facts is easy; but choosing to ignore them without contrary evidence seems...strange.  It's not like I'm claiming to be a unicorn.

Quote from: Brad;1076074Seriously, what a fucking loser to post this nonsense. "My mom says I'm handsome."

She does.  I don't think it's important, and I'd expect your mother likes you, too.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she's the ONLY person who likes you.  

But again, not intended to be a competition.  You don't have to believe me.  Calling me a loser because I am doing okay financially isn't going to bother me.  Calling me a loser because I post on gaming forums (and have for a LONG, LONG, LONG time, always under the name deadDMwalking) isn't going to bother me; there are a lot of other people who do the same thing, many of whom I like very much.  Calling me a virgin isn't going to bother me; I have three kids.  Basically, I'm a well-adjusted, secure individual so personal attacks, while I'm happy to address, are not going to make me cry tears and run away.  I know not everyone is going to believe what I say, but pointing out that it is a personal attack (and groundless at that) is amusing to me.  It'd be like me saying 'my hair is brown' and everyone here disbelieving me - you know deadDMwalking and the kind of person he is!  Obviously his hair must be purple plaid!  

I play RPGs.  I spend a lot of my hobby time with RPGs.  I've been doing it since I was a kid.  Like lots of other gamers I also have my life together - that shouldn't be something that invites incredulity.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076094It's not supposed to be a competition; like, I'm sure there are people on these boards who earn more than me.  

Googling the exchange rate, looks like I earn pretty much exactly the same as you sirrah - I bet you have longer hours though. :D

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076094She does.  I don't think it's important, and I'd expect your mother likes you, too.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she's the ONLY person who likes you.

Basically, I'm a well-adjusted, secure individual so personal attacks, while I'm happy to address, are not going to make me cry tears and run away.

So well adjusted you reply with what basically amounts to, "I know you are but what am I?" Pathetic.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076094Then we have a contradiction.  If talking on these forums is proof of 'no life', then having 'no life' cannot be used as a justification not to have a conversation.  If it could, no conversation would be happening because everybody here would not be worth talking to on account of having no life.

You are correct, no conversation is worth having on an internet forum.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1076085Any amount of time spend on an internet forum is wasted time. While here, you have "no life". The more passionate you are about something on a forum the less life one has.

I hope you are enjoying yourself because forums are only meant to waste time.

Yes.

Quote from: LouP;1075954I don't know Daniel Fox from a hole in the wall (though I don't especially like what little I do know), but this post sure does look like an attempt at coercion if not blackmail. And you wrote it, right? So, it seems that you gave him the ammunition for this latest salvo. Maybe you should have thought twice before threatening the "nuclear button".

Hmm.. poster with 12 posts suddenly shows up to defend Daniel fucking Fox, a known serial sockpuppeteer both for the purposes of promoting his shitty game and for doxxing people (including possibly himself, making him the Jussie Smollett of the RPG world)?

Note: keep this thread on topic or there will be bannings.

By on-topic I mean no discussing America's Future Civil War or how polluted the Mississippi is.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1076010Idk about that thread. It seems pretty much half hate you, but most of them want whatever you have released anyways because they care more about going after Mearls than people they think are "conservative".

I think in their minds, being a known "conservative" is already "unpersoned" and little further effort is required.

Yeah, but they care about going after Mearls because they think he's secretly "conservative" (note "conservative" here just means "not a full-blown Stalinist SJW").

I have to say, they have made a tremendously good counter-argument there, because it's reinforced my understanding that when Mearls is fired, everyone else left in WoTC is part of the Stalinist-SJW agenda, and will destroy D&D in their fervor. He's literally the only thing keeping it mostly sane.  It must be enormously stressful for him, constantly having to play this balancing act of pretending to agree with everything they demand he pretend to agree with, and altering material just enough to placate the SJWs for the moment without causing actual harm to the brand (which would piss off the corporate overlords) all while walking a tightrope of having to watch every single thing he says, does, or even who he looks in the eye or how he smiles, for fear of any of the entirely hostile office using that as the trigger for an internal coup.

Quote from: SHARK;1076083Greetings!

Jussie Smolett has been arrested bythe Chicago Police. He is being charged with multiple felonies. He is a worthless fucking criminal. The police have investigated the case--Smolett lied, and made the whole story up, and the "attack" was entirely fake, and staged. Smolett is a lying, racist, SJW scumbag.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This is completely off-topic. This is not the Pundit's Forum. This thread is ONLY to talk about the RPG industry.

This doesn't just go for you, Shark, but for EVERYONE who is posting anything off-topic. Stop, or quit the thread, or get yourselves banned.

Quote from: Brad;1076084Just watched the press conference with the BLACK chief of police. Are the SJWs going to call him a white nationalist, too?

EDIT: This thread should probably be moved...it's really not about gaming so much anymore. Also if anyone is interested: https://youtu.be/jg9vVMNi4N0

No, We don't move threads here, we ban people who insist on derailing the thread with off-topic posts. SO STOP DOING THAT.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1076129Hmm.. poster with 12 posts suddenly shows up to defend Daniel fucking Fox, a known serial sockpuppeteer both for the purposes of promoting his shitty game and for doxxing people (including possibly himself, making him the Jussie Smollett of the RPG world)?

I'm not defending Daniel Fox. As I said, I don't like what little I do know of him.

Being critical of you doesn't equal defending him.

The fact is that your post, in which you threaten to press the "nuclear button", comes across as blackmail.

Do I think he should have made a big deal of it? Not at all. Do I think you're coming across as more than a little whiny when you complain about him complaining about you? Yes.

And what the hell does the number of times I've posted here have anything to do with it? I assure you I'm not a sockpuppet for anyone.


Lou Prosperi

If someone contributes to a product, and you credit them for their contributions, it's pretty cheesy to remove their credit because you decide you don't like them anymore.  Their contribution still exists until the next edition is released.

I doubt WOTC would want to lose Mearls.  He makes them look good.  He is considered a hero by many.

I for one am shocked that Pundit's smoking gun ended up being nothing but empty posturing

How could the man behind the amazingly popular D&DGate movement do this

Quote from: Player's Nuclear Option;1076141I for one am shocked that Pundit's smoking gun ended up being nothing but empty posturing

How could the man behind the amazingly popular D&DGate movement do this

Is this the life you chose for yourself?

Quote from: Haffrung;1076021Adventures with two, maybe three combat encounters in a session, where those combats have real importance and dramatic consequence. So more plot-driven games.

WotC never gets the adventures aligned with the system. When they had a system geared towards relatively few but highly dramatic and cinematic combats, they released combat-dense dungeon adventures. Now that they have a system geared for lots of attritional combats, they're publishing epic plot-driven campaigns. I firmly believe Keep on the Shadowfell and Thunderspire Labyrinth are best suited to 5E, while Curse of Strahd and Waterdeep Dragon Heist would play better with 4E.

I played in KOTS and felt it was too linear and mediocre. I played one session of Thunderspire and felt it was mediocre. It was the same GM for both, so maybe that was the problem. Other 4E games went alright.

Curse of Strahd is a weird beast. It's not sandboxy enough to be a sandbox, and there's not enough plot for it to be a storygame. I don't have enough experience with 4E to know how it would play out using 4E. If I had to pick a system to run Strahd, I'd probably go for Traveller (a fantasy variant.) Older characters, random character generation, brutal combat, no PC magic. That would give it a horror feel.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076030You do not appear to be responding to anything I wrote.

Welcome to the internet.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076051David "Olivia" Hill is a scumbag, but he doesn't deserve to die. He just needs to shut the fuck up

NO. David/Olivia Hill might be a scumbag, but has the right to free speech.

An equal right to free speech as anyone else, regardless of their opinions.

Doc, it's either free speech for all...or none.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1076131I have to say, they have made a tremendously good counter-argument there, because it's reinforced my understanding that when Mearls is fired, everyone else left in WoTC is part of the Stalinist-SJW agenda, and will destroy D&D in their fervor.

Excellent! This sounds like a wonderful plan and I hope your emails are as Hiroshima as you've hinted at. Time for Mearls to glow in the dark.

D&D desperately needs its "go woke, go broke" moment and we need it ASAP. When the Hasbro CFO sees the drop in WotC revenue, they will sound the money alarm awakening the One True American God and you can bet there will be house cleaning like a wildfire through the Seattle offices.

...and the RPG hobby shalt be reborn afresh, maybe this time focused on games.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1076146When the Hasbro CFO sees the drop in WotC revenue, they will sound the money alarm awakening the One True American God and you can bet there will be house cleaning like a wildfire through the Seattle offices.

Because that's what happened to Disney-Lucasfilm over the The Last Jedi debacle?

Right?

Right?

...When a corporation is Converged, sadly they very often will prefer going Broke to dealing with the Woke. It becomes a sort of religious test of faith - to Suffer for their Belief. And of course they cast the moral blame on the 'Toxic White Male' fanbase - ie their customers.

That said, I'm not convinced Mearls is truly the last bastion of non-SJW-ness at WoTC. Obviously Jeremy Crawford has very strong SocJus inclinations, he wants the books full of gay and trans stuff - but my impression is he's not an actual hate-filled SJW in the mode of Jessica Price, who did so much damage to Paizo. Of the few other people left at the company, I never got a strong SocJus vibe off Chris Perkins, though he may well be to the left of Mearls - who is already strongly left-liberal by any standard other than that of the San Francisco-Portland-Seattle negaplex. Not saying Pundit is necessarily wrong either though.

11th highest grossing film of all time...the fail narrative is getting old

Quote from: HorusArisen;107615811th highest grossing film of all time...the fail narrative is getting old

Solo lost money, as I expect you know. Not because Solo was a bad film. Because TLJ was a bad film.

Quote from: S'mon;1076159Solo lost money, as I expect you know. Not because Solo was a bad film. Because TLJ was a bad film.

If you say so, I'm sure mismanaging and poor advertising didn't affect it as much as the 1.3+ billion dollar success before it did :rolleyes:

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075960to use Federal troops against protesters you would have to first show how the state(s) 'unable or unwilling to suppress violence that is in opposition to the constitutional rights of the people'.  Failure to do so would put you in violation of The Posse Comitatus Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act).

I'm not from the US, but the police being told by the Portland mayor's office not to do anything to those Antifa people that were redirecting traffic seems like a clear inability or unwillingness to suppress actions (though not actual violence) that were pretty bizarre (basically taking over a power that is reserved to the police).

The videos are still up on youtube, including people filming the police standing by, chomping at the bit but unable to do anything about the bastards right in the middle of the street directing traffic "because I told you so, you white boy" (or some such phrase).

Quote from: HorusArisen;1076171If you say so, I'm sure mismanaging and poor advertising didn't affect it as much as the 1.3+ billion dollar success before it did :rolleyes:

   All I know is that The Last Jedi killed my enthusiasm for Star Wars to the point that Solo is the first widespread theatrical Star Wars release I skipped in thirty years. I'm probably just an outlier, though; too attached to Legends, too old and not woke enough to begin the training in the ways of the glorious New Order. :)

Quote from: HorusArisen;1076171If you say so, I'm sure mismanaging and poor advertising didn't affect it as much as the 1.3+ billion dollar success before it did :rolleyes:

God, curse me with a failure on par with The Last Jedi. I will bear that burden. :D

Seriously, Solo's problems were entirely its own and can be summarized as... A) came out less than six months after TLJ, B) recast an iconic role played by Harrison Ford, C) was a movie literally no one was asking for (but I suspect was important to the creators in terms of contextualizing the sequel trilogy), and D) there was literally zero tension surrounding the fates of Han, Chewie, Lando or the Millennium Falcon throughout the film.

It was basically a film tailor-made to be skippable by general audience fans... so it was. The worst part of it was it gave the haters of TLJ the idea that they were the ones who actually tanked Solo and not all of the above + a raft of production cost overruns when, at best, they might have made a 1% difference in Solo's actual box office numbers.

Quote from: HorusArisen;1076171If you say so, I'm sure mismanaging and poor advertising didn't affect it as much as the 1.3+ billion dollar success before it did :rolleyes:

You don't understand the film business very well, do you?

TLJ had a reported budget of between 250 and 300 million dollars. Advertisement for big studio films often equals 100% of the filming budget, and big franchises like MCU and Star Wars tend to spend even more than that. Let's give Disney a hand here and say they just spent 100% of the budget, so it goes to between 500 and 600 million.

The 1.3 Billion worldwide take is a gross figure, which doesn't take into account the theaters' cut, which goes anywhere between 25 and 40 percent of the gross. Let's assume because it's Disney (and therefore makes it more of a sure thing for the theaters) that the theaters' cut is on the low end, let's say 20%, which comes out at 260 million. So, Disney's actual worldwide take for TLJ was about 1 billion, which means a net profit of between 400 and 500 million.

The problem is investors don't give a shit about the intricacies of the market. They want maximum return, which means more than last time. If a business isn't growing, it's shrinking (because stagnating is the same as shrinking to an investor...he could be putting his dollars into something that was actually growing). And TLJ made about 500 to 600 million less in profit than TFA, and that's after a reportedly higher initial investment.

Four or five hundred million might be a lot to you and me, but to Disney and the investors it was a colossal failure, which led directly to the dumpster fire that was the Solo release, and the almost immediate reaction by the CEO admitting their mistake in rushing the releases out too quickly and a subsequent slowdown in order to prevent such a significant drop in the returns for future releases.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1076173All I know is that The Last Jedi killed my enthusiasm for Star Wars to the point that Solo is the first widespread theatrical Star Wars release I skipped in thirty years. I'm probably just an outlier, though; too attached to Legends, too old and not woke enough to begin the training in the ways of the glorious New Order. :)

Of the new trilogy, the first movie was pretty good; but the directions they took by the end of the trilogy pissed off their fan base.  RPG companies are capable of doing the same thing.  And the RPG market needs their fan base to be excited about the current product offering.  D&D 4E......?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1076173All I know is that The Last Jedi killed my enthusiasm for Star Wars to the point that Solo is the first widespread theatrical Star Wars release I skipped in thirty years. I'm probably just an outlier, though; too attached to Legends, too old and not woke enough to begin the training in the ways of the glorious New Order. :)

What killed my enthusiasm for Star Wars was The Force Awakens. It happened right there at the beginning of the movie, when I realized I was watching a bloody remake of the original Star Wars I just... stopped caring. Disney took the most cynical and safe route possible, the "soft reboot." And people still defend this movie using marketing speech, as if they hold shares of Lucasfilm or something. "It was needed to present Star Wars to a new generation..." Yeah, right.

I liked some things about TLJ and hated others, but overall I still couldn't care enough to be excited or angry. This is SEQUEL NUMBER 7 of a tired movie franchise. It's exactly as relevant as any Hellraiser direct-to-video sequel. I was PISSED at the awfulness of much of the prequels, but this time? "What did we expect?"

We should let it die and get hyped for the Denis Villeneuve DUNE movie instead. :cool:

Quote from: RF Victor;1076196What killed my enthusiasm for Star Wars was The Force Awakens. It happened right there at the beginning of the movie, when I realized I was watching a bloody remake of the original Star Wars I just... stopped caring. Disney took the most cynical and safe route possible, the "soft reboot." And people still defend this movie using marketing speech, as if they hold shares of Lucasfilm or something. "It was needed to present Star Wars to a new generation..." Yeah, right.

I liked some things about TLJ and hated others, but overall I still couldn't care enough to be excited or angry. This is SEQUEL NUMBER 7 of a tired movie franchise. It's exactly as relevant as any Hellraiser direct-to-video sequel. I was PISSED at the awfulness of much of the prequels, but this time? "What did we expect?"

We should let it die and get hyped for the Denis Villeneuve DUNE movie instead. :cool:

Much of what made TFA different from A New Hope was the plot hook set ups that TLJ spent the entire movie throwing away or burning.

Solo was a movie meant to pander to the more hardcore fans who were either burnt by TFA or TLJ. So after alienating everyone the movie was for, it flopped.

Much like how D&D 6e will flop after Mearls is fired and JC feels the need to make a new more ideologically pure edition directed towards people who don't play and won't buy D&D products.

Quote from: RF Victor;1076196Disney took the most cynical and safe route possible, the "soft reboot." And people still defend this movie using marketing speech, as if they hold shares of Lucasfilm or something. "It was needed to present Star Wars to a new generation..." Yeah, right.

  I was willing to cut them some slack on TFA because I could see TFA as 'proof we can do Star Wars after taking over' and suffered from other limitations (they had to be able to market it as containing all three stars, and there was no way you were getting Harrison Ford to do more than one movie), but I still considered it weaker than anything but Episode I and arguably II. I started getting alienated when the expansion material (which they kept pounding into our heads was canon) made it clearer that virtually nothing of substance had been accomplished and Both Sides Were Deeply Flawed. Rogue One, for all the hype, left me cold, especially when the Rebel Alliance wasn't willing to take a chance on the Death Star plans until our Designated Rogues and Outcasts took the lead. Then TLJ was filled with character and plot points that led me to conclude that whatever merits post-Lucas Star Wars has, it's grown beyond, or at least away from, me.

  I'm enjoying going back to older material like Flash Gordon and Zorro, myself.

Quote from: RF Victor;1076196What killed my enthusiasm for Star Wars was The Force Awakens.

TFA was a big letdown for me, especially after hearing glowing reviews of it from people I thought I could count on.

Star Wars just hasn't been the same for me since Lucas released the enhanced editions back in the 90s. I haven't been a big fan of the property since that time period, with every new release making me less so. I wish Star Wars had stopped with ROTJ.

I can't find the quote, but a commenter in a thread a few months ago said words to the effect "Star Wars is 3 movies that people love and bunch of shit people buy because they love those 3 movies".

Indeed.

Quote from: HorusArisen;1076171If you say so, I'm sure mismanaging and poor advertising didn't affect it as much as the 1.3+ billion dollar success before it did :rolleyes:

Off Topic:  The Last Jedi has been the lynchpin for Solo's failure.  It's affecting the Merchandising, TLJ and Solo toys are not selling, Hasbro is in panic mode over it.  Also, the various advertising for the Disney Star Wars theme park is using ALL the old pre-Disney characters.  The new 'sequel' trilogy is not doing as well as Disney was expecting.

Anyway, I have to ask again, why does it matter?  Very few gamers care about who writes the game books in the first place!

Quote from: S'mon;1076152...When a corporation is Converged, sadly they very often will prefer going Broke to dealing with the Woke. It becomes a sort of religious test of faith - to Suffer for their Belief. And of course they cast the moral blame on the 'Toxic White Male' fanbase - ie their customers.

And that MAY be the plan at WotC.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see Hasbro permitting that.

Quote from: RF Victor;1076196We should let it die and get hyped for the Denis Villeneuve DUNE movie instead. :cool:

Gag. I had hope after Sicarrio, but the lame ass Arrival and Boring Runner 2049 there's no hope for Dune.

He doesn't have the mad genius of either Lynch or Jodorowsky. It will be pretty, and pretty boring.

But hey, I'd LOVE to be totally wrong and see an amazing Dune movie.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1076212Anyway, I have to ask again, why does it matter?  Very few gamers care about who writes the game books in the first place!

I think it matters for the same reasons the whole satanic panic and moral outrage brigade impacted 2e D&D and not for the better as TSR tried to appease these nuts and the general gaming public wondered WTF was happening to D&D. Id bet the same has happened to Vampire players as WW tried to appease these nuts.

And actually I think some gamers do care who writes the books as they may have liked that writers prior works. Way back I used to keep an eye out for anything by Moldvy and Cordell as I'd liked their work on certain modules.

Quote from: SpinachcatWhen the Hasbro CFO sees the drop in WotC revenue, they will sound the money alarm awakening the One True American God and you can bet there will be house cleaning like a wildfire through the Seattle offices.

Quote from: S'mon;1076152Because that's what happened to Disney-Lucasfilm over the The Last Jedi debacle?

Right?

Right?

...When a corporation is Converged, sadly they very often will prefer going Broke to dealing with the Woke. It becomes a sort of religious test of faith - to Suffer for their Belief. And of course they cast the moral blame on the 'Toxic White Male' fanbase - ie their customers.

I am extremely doubtful of starting from the position that Disney just didn't want to make more money on the franchise. I am, in fact, more inclined to suspect that Internet experts who recite "Get Woke Go Broke" are not, in fact, the experts they think they are. The biggest grossing movie of all time was Avatar, which was full of liberal themes of native culture vs corporate greed and more.

I can believe that Disney made mistakes, but I don't believe for a second that they aren't trying to make money or that they are incompetent fools. This is a multimillion dollar enterprise with armies of market analysts who actually know about how wokeness affects market choices. If Disney went that route, it is at least a plausible route to make money - as indeed it did. The same goes for Hasbro. At the level of WotC, I'm sure that individual contributors have much greater control, and I have less faith in their market savvy. That doesn't mean that the same Internet experts who second-guess Disney are more right, though.

There is a tendency to think that selling to one's own politics is always the best business plan - but I think that's weird identity stuff. Within gaming, I certainly don't think that marketing to my tastes is in the best interest of companies like Wizards of the Coast. More broadly, there are companies that can do well selling to liberal customers. There are companies that can do well selling to conservative customers. There are companies that can successfully split the difference, including selling to more moderate or apolitical gamers.

As for what's the best path financially for WotC, I don't have a strong opinion. That's different than what I think they should do according to my politics.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1076173All I know is that The Last Jedi killed my enthusiasm for Star Wars to the point that Solo is the first widespread theatrical Star Wars release I skipped in thirty years.

Yeah, me too. And millions of others.

Studios love flops like Han Solo: A Star Wars Story.  

I mean, they'd love them better if they weren't perceived as flops, but the movie made back the cost to produce and more.  The production budget was $250 million (more than any other Star Wars movie to that point, and was certainly due to major problems).  The cost of marketing a movie like that was probably in the neighborhood of $40 million.  Let's be generous and assume that the total cost was around $300 million.  

The worldwide gross for the movie was $393 million (https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=untitledhansolostarwarsanthologyfilm.htm).  That works out to a 31% rate of return.  

I have not seen Solo; I will not see Solo.  I wasn't much of a fan of the sequels, but that didn't really impact my decision on whether to see the movie.  For me, it had much more to do with Harrison Ford's iconic portrayal - I don't think that anyone could do the character justice, and even if they could, his character arc is most interesting from the point where he intersects with Luke and Obiwan.  The story of how he got to that point is BETTER when left to the imagination.  Trying to make a better story that ends right where we met him isn't a good idea - if we add too many things we impact his later relations.  For example, if he were married (and still married) in a New Hope, his relationship with Leia becomes a lot weirder (like the revelation that Luke and Leia are siblings).  If they decided to make it a film specifically about how he and Chewie became partners, that could be alright - sort of a buddy cop type film.  But I think that a much better movie would have been about Lando - he went from some one that hangs around Smugglers to the Lord Mayor - there's a story there for sure!  I would have been concerned that they wouldn't find anyone with the charisma of Billy Dee Williams, but from what I saw of the previews, Lando's portrayal would have been just fine by me.  

There are major issues regarding AMBITION and CLOSURE.  The second is really the most important.  When people like a character, they want to keep seeing them, even if it ruins the story.  Think: Death of Sherlock Holmes.  If heroes have to keep coming back, they can never actually just drop off the scene and let a new generation take over.  But that's what Obi-Wan did.  If Han and Leia lived happily ever, would that have been so bad?  People would feel BETRAYED by it, but the alternative is that they'll HAVE to be violently killed so we can move on.  But in order to make that happen, they had to sacrifice ambition.  Leia and Han never made the galaxy a better place.  Defeating the Empire didn't accomplish ANYTHING.  More people died because the Empire was defeated than not.  

The Galaxy is a big place.  I know there are a lot of stories that are no longer canon about what the collapse of the Empire means.  I maintain that stories like 'Heart of Darkness' where military commanders of Star Destroyers have set up their own monstrous empires would be a world ripe for Jedi Knights to explore - they needed a 'Knights of the Round Table' saga, not a reboot.  They needed to allow the events of the original movies stand and deal with the consequences, rather than try to reset everything so we could go back to exactly the way it was before and do it all again, only worse.

Quote from: jhkim;1076226I am extremely doubtful of starting from the position that Disney just didn't want to make more money on the franchise. I am, in fact, more inclined to suspect that Internet experts who recite "Get Woke Go Broke" are not, in fact, the experts they think they are. The biggest grossing movie of all time was Avatar, which was full of liberal themes of native culture vs corporate greed and more.

With a straight white male protagonist.
Same with Robocop (also anti-Corporate)
Same with Starship Troopers (anti-Military).

Of course Aliens and Terminator 2 had female protagonists, and were anti-Corporate too.

Kim, have you noticed that these days the Corporations are Woke and the Woke are pro-Corporate?

Wokeness isn't at all about being pro 'native culture' or anti 'corporate greed' - that's all very 1980s. Wokeness is about being anti Straight White Cis Male. Anti the majority of the action/fantasy/sci-fi audience.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076234Studios love flops like Han Solo: A Star Wars Story.  

I mean, they'd love them better if they weren't perceived as flops, but the movie made back the cost to produce and more.  The production budget was $250 million (more than any other Star Wars movie to that point, and was certainly due to major problems).  The cost of marketing a movie like that was probably in the neighborhood of $40 million.  Let's be generous and assume that the total cost was around $300 million.  

The worldwide gross for the movie was $393 million (https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=untitledhansolostarwarsanthologyfilm.htm).  That works out to a 31% rate of return.  

Your $40 million marketing budget is complete fantasy, though. As noted above, marketing budgets tend to be around the cost of production. And of course cinemas take a cut of the gross.

Jesus Fucking Christ On A Stick what does Pundit have to do to get you fuckers to stop taking this thread off-topic about your little pet beefs concering movies?

As for the consultant names being removed from DDB, I don't care because who would ever look at that page in DDB given how it's structured? You'd have to seek that page out, because navigation normally wouldn't ever take you to that page the way it's structured. However, in terms of physical reprints, I'd prefer the leave those names in because that's how the book was written and print changes should be part of errata, which this is not.

EDIT:  Sorry!  Mistwell is right. I got pulled off topic.

Regarding WotC, I suspect that when 5E was released, they were trying to straddle the middle by citing Zak S and Pundit as consultants in addition to nods towards more liberal gamers. At this point, I suspect that they are going to avoid moves like that, and instead just try to be more neutral - and not cite any consultants either way.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076234... Leia and Han never made the galaxy a better place.  Defeating the Empire didn't accomplish ANYTHING.

Yes, that was disappointing.

QuoteThe Galaxy is a big place.  I know there are a lot of stories that are no longer canon about what the collapse of the Empire means.  I maintain that stories like 'Heart of Darkness' where military commanders of Star Destroyers have set up their own monstrous empires would be a world ripe for Jedi Knights to explore - they needed a 'Knights of the Round Table' saga, not a reboot.  They needed to allow the events of the original movies stand and deal with the consequences, rather than try to reset everything so we could go back to exactly the way it was before and do it all again, only worse.

New Jedi = Knights of the Round Table. That is a very interesting idea and could make a great setting for post RotJ RPG campaign. Luke Skywalker becomes some combination of Arthur (head of the Round Table) and Merlin (mystical wizard guy).

And something like that had been the theme for the movies, Disney could still have a lot of the over the top Jedi action that became the vogue with the Star Wars prequels and computer games.

EDIT: Off topic perhaps, but inside the Star Wars movie tangent I found a shiny, new-to-me idea for a Star Wars campaign.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1076172I'm not from the US, but the police being told by the Portland mayor's office not to do anything to those Antifa people that were redirecting traffic seems like a clear inability or unwillingness to suppress actions (though not actual violence) that were pretty bizarre (basically taking over a power that is reserved to the police).

The videos are still up on youtube, including people filming the police standing by, chomping at the bit but unable to do anything about the bastards right in the middle of the street directing traffic "because I told you so, you white boy" (or some such phrase).

This is off topic. Do not post again on this thread. Consider this your warning.

Star Wars discussion is OFF TOPIC. Take it to the Media & Inspiration forum. No more discussion of Star Wars, or anything outside of the realm of RPGs, will be tolerated. Don't make me ban people.

Quote from: Mistwell;1076241Jesus Fucking Christ On A Stick what does Pundit have to do to get you fuckers to stop taking this thread off-topic about your little pet beefs concering movies?

Probably ban people, knowing how this went before.

But I'll say it again in the hope that this is heeded: FROM THIS POST ON ANY POST THAT HAS A SUBJECT OFF-TOPIC TO RPGS & THE RPG HOBBY IN GENERAL AND THE ZAK/WOTC THING THAT'S GOING ON IN PARTICULAR IS GOING TO GET A BAN.

FWIW, I checked my 5E PHB, and WOTC has been unable to remove the names of the contributors.

I like hardback books, for the win!!!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1076131Yeah, but they care about going after Mearls because they think he's secretly "conservative" (note "conservative" here just means "not a full-blown Stalinist SJW").

I have to say, they have made a tremendously good counter-argument there, because it's reinforced my understanding that when Mearls is fired, everyone else left in WoTC is part of the Stalinist-SJW agenda, and will destroy D&D in their fervor. He's literally the only thing keeping it mostly sane.  It must be enormously stressful for him, constantly having to play this balancing act of pretending to agree with everything they demand he pretend to agree with, and altering material just enough to placate the SJWs for the moment without causing actual harm to the brand (which would piss off the corporate overlords) all while walking a tightrope of having to watch every single thing he says, does, or even who he looks in the eye or how he smiles, for fear of any of the entirely hostile office using that as the trigger for an internal coup.

So, I take it from your comment you see Mearls being sacrificed on the alter of the SJW agenda as inevitable? What sort of time frame are you expecting this to go down and does this mean we're likely to get a "Woke" 6e (2020 would be about six years... longer than WotC has ever managed without churning out a new edition) or 5.5e designed to to purge all the non-SJW elements out of 5e at some point after Mearls is shown the door?

No. It seems to me like a bunch of these new people came specifically to poke the bear. The bear being Pundit.

And it's far from a productive thing for them to do.

Why am I here? To actually participate in conversations with reasonable people. And Pundit is nomally quite reasonable. Unless someone rubs him particularly the wrong way.

The Big Purple turned into a cesspool of utter garbage. Because the mods never did a thing about people deliberately derailing and griefing threads. So much,  that even posting any kind of conversation at all turned into a futile exercise.

On TBP. I admit that I developed a bit of an attitude problem. I didn't trust the mods to actual do the job of moderating. I did more than my share of courting controversy. And I quite deliberately kept a chip on my shoulder. Because I believed that there was no chance at all that I would be treated fairly.

Pundit. For all of his flaws. Tries his damnedest to give everybody an even shake. i saw that quality immediately from when I first met him in that IRC chatroom long ago. And it's something I truly respect. It's why he got me to come here in the first place.

The fact that Wizards wants to disrespect consultants who did nothing wrong. By removing their credits from the game they hard worked on. It stinks to me. And it stinks loudly. Those consultants deserve better.

And I do not think I want to continue to support a company that see's fit to persecute and discredit others for simply having differing opinions. It's bullshit! And it has nothing to do with the quality of the work that those people produced.

Zak. S is a piece of crap. He deserves the drummiing out of the business he earned. But I will never agree with throwing innocent people, who did nothing wrong, under the bus.

Think of me what you will. I have my sense of morality. And I'm sticking by it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075667How can I link it?  It goes all the way back to 2011 to 2013 I think.  It was when feminism frequency released her first video game videos.  With G+ dying it is going to be hard if not impossible.

Also do I need to prove SJWs are not afraid to dog pile on the internet?

No, but the more evidence the better, especially when it relates to bad actors like Olivia.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075703Just keep in mind you need to ask Simlasa for links too if you want to keep it fair.

I want those links too, just forgot to ask.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075769I think it's hilarious that every time Fox has posted a link to one of my blogs claiming "RPGPundit is X" and quoting a single line from it, the blog itself directly contradicts his point.

I'm noticing this a lot lately. For example, Zak's own defense was more damning than almost anything Mandy accused him of.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075771Today Wizards made a statement on twitter that they were not going to include Zak's name in the credits of the next printing of the PHB. They gave no indication of whether they were going to still include the rest of us who were Consultants.

It's likely the entire section will go.

Regardless there's a legal basis for you and Zak to sue, because you can't simply remove someone's credits from a work they helped create. It's like being an editor of someone's story. What's worse is as a 'consultant' there isn't anything which could specifically be removed.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075771But if they should remove mine along with Zak's just to placate these fucking Stalinists, there will be hell to pay.

Starting with my pushing the nuclear button and publishing the Mearls Emails.

Ultimatums are never a good look.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075785Wait Hill is backing up Mandy?  Is there a link?

Yes! Link!

Quote from: Dan Vincze;1075854He did write that negative review of Keep on the Borderlands 20 years ago.

How was he even allowed to work on D&D?!?

Quote from: Jaeger;1075886Ahh but you can laugh harder when you filter internet forums through: http://www.gizoogle.net

Where has this been all my life?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075903After all the work I did to translate it FROM gangsta'.

No wonder it wasn't making much sense.

Quote from: Haffrung;1076021WotC never gets the adventures aligned with the system. When they had a system geared towards relatively few but highly dramatic and cinematic combats, they released combat-dense dungeon adventures. Now that they have a system geared for lots of attritional combats, they're publishing epic plot-driven campaigns. I firmly believe Keep on the Shadowfell and Thunderspire Labyrinth are best suited to 5E, while Curse of Strahd and Waterdeep Dragon Heist would play better with 4E.

That's an incredibly ironic and insightful point. You mind if I sling it to #Reddit?

Quote from: Chris24601;1076310So, I take it from your comment you see Mearls being sacrificed on the alter of the SJW agenda as inevitable? What sort of time frame are you expecting this to go down and does this mean we're likely to get a "Woke" 6e (2020 would be about six years... longer than WotC has ever managed without churning out a new edition) or 5.5e designed to to purge all the non-SJW elements out of 5e at some point after Mearls is shown the door?

It's pretty hard to guess at this. I mean, he could be fired tomorrow, or he could somehow manage to keep it up for another few years.

I would suspect that barring unexpected events, 2020 might be a key year for all kinds of SJW hysteria, as it is the year Trump will be re-elected. They'll be in absolute batshit-psychosis stage for the entire campaign season, and the immediate aftermath.

Without looking, who came name the consultants that aren't Pundit or Zak?  If it wasn't for "ConsultGate" (retarded fucking name by the way, not everything needs to be -gate), I wouldn't even know they had a hand in it.

That said, I'm hardly surprised that WotC took the cowards path on this. Everything they've done since dropping to core set has been cowardly and afraid to commit to anything.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1076435Without looking, who came name the consultants that aren't Pundit or Zak?  If it wasn't for "ConsultGate" (retarded fucking name by the way, not everything needs to be -gate), I wouldn't even know they had a hand in it.

That said, I'm hardly surprised that WotC took the cowards path on this. Everything they've done since dropping to core set has been cowardly and afraid to commit to anything.

Greetings!

Hey Warboss!! When you said, "Everything they've done since dropping to core set has been cowardly and afraid to commit to anything."

What do you mean by that, my friend? Can you elaborate more on this?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1076437Greetings!

Hey Warboss!! When you said, "Everything they've done since dropping to core set has been cowardly and afraid to commit to anything."

What do you mean by that, my friend? Can you elaborate more on this?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

How many years has 5th been out? How many setting books have been released?

There's been some FR adventure books, which have a bit of fluff, if you can look past villains like "The Invincible Overlord".  Dumbest name ever. Oh, and there's an adventure book for Ravenloft. Yay.

The three best books, Volo's, Mordikainen's, and another I can't remember the name of are just mechanical books. Monster info and stats, spells and some PC stuff.

But adventure books are a safe bet, so are mechanic books.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1076440How many years has 5th been out? How many setting books have been released?

There's been some FR adventure books, which have a bit of fluff, if you can look past villains like "The Invincible Overlord".  Dumbest name ever. Oh, and there's an adventure book for Ravenloft. Yay.

The three best books, Volo's, Mordikainen's, and another I can't remember the name of are just mechanical books. Monster info and stats, spells and some PC stuff.

But adventure books are a safe bet, so are mechanic books.

Xanathar's Guide to Everything?

You must not have read Mordenkainen's. It's filled with lore about elves, dwarves, etc. I learned a lot about their weird ways. Same with Volo's, and Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1076435Without looking, who came name the consultants that aren't Pundit or Zak?

  Jeff Grubb, Ken Hite, Robin Laws, Kevin Kulp, and one other I can't recall off hand. :)

Quote from: Razor 007;1076306FWIW, I checked my 5E PHB, and WOTC has been unable to remove the names of the contributors.

I like hardback books, for the win!!!

So far. But Zak at least will be gone from the next print run according to the official WOTC announcement. Possibly all the contributor names as WOTC removed them sometime last year from the Basic PDF.

Which still brings up the question of why the removal.

This was still in the 2015 v.03 which I believe had not changed as of 2015. .  

QuoteAdditional consultation provided by  Jeff Grubb, Kenneth Hite, Kevin Kulp, Robin Laws,  S. John Ross, the RPGPundit, Vincent Venturella, and Zak S.

Not in the 2018 v1.0

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1076350Zak. S is a piece of crap. He deserves the drummiing out of the business he earned. But I will never agree with throwing innocent people, who did nothing wrong, under the bus.

Think of me what you will. I have my sense of morality. And I'm sticking by it.

What sense of morality? What are you sticking by?

You might not like Zak, his online attitude, his porno lifestyle, or his work, but where does He Said / She Said hearsay demand "drumming out of the business he earned"?

What happens when we all hear the "truth" about Darrin Kelley? What happens when your ex-somebody declares you a monster? And if not you, maybe someone you care about?

On that day, will Darrin Kelley "deserve the drumming" the online mob is braying for?

ZakS may be everything Mandy said and more. The operative word is "may".

We, the online spectators to this sad spectacle, have no facts, just hearsay, and there's nothing "moral" about damning people on hearsay.

Faces gone from photographs
People unremembered
If it's good enough for Stalin
I guess it has to do.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1076579What sense of morality? What are you sticking by?

You might not like Zak, his online attitude, his porno lifestyle, or his work, but where does He Said / She Said hearsay demand "drumming out of the business he earned"?

What happens when we all hear the "truth" about Darrin Kelley? What happens when your ex-somebody declares you a monster? And if not you, maybe someone you care about?

On that day, will Darrin Kelley "deserve the drumming" the online mob is braying for?

ZakS may be everything Mandy said and more. The operative word is "may".

We, the online spectators to this sad spectacle, have no facts, just hearsay, and there's nothing "moral" about damning people on hearsay.

I think it's important to realize that there's a huge mountain of evidence that has nothing to do with hearsay. There's loads of perfectly legitimate reasons to dislike or wish to do no further business with Zak; he's combative, dismissive, elitist, and consistently mocks and belittles those with whom he disagrees. I don't need hearsay to tell me that; his blog has been in my favorites list for years, it's easily observable evidence that clearly exhibits his character.

One of the reasons this is striking a lot of his fans (like me) so close to home is that, when the first wave of controversies surrounding him hit (there have subsequently been an embarrassing amount more), Mandi's defense of him re-characterized his behavior in terms of someone who, though not entirely objective (she was dating him at the time) nonetheless was personally close to him and could "fill in" the gaps that we saw in his humanity looking only through the lens of online interaction (where, let's be real, we all look like assbags of some variety).

For that entire defense to not only be a lie, but one manufactured to allow him to continue demeaning, pointlessly cruel online behavior? That's a betrayal of our trust as fans. Even if you don't give a crap about what actually went down between him and Mandi and apparently a gaggle of other victims, he betrayed us by lying to us.

I, like you, don't care much about online hearsay. But yeah, I'm personally done with the guy; I'm not burning his books, but I'm not recommending them anymore either. I'm not asking people to boycott him, but I'm not following him on twitter or going to his blog anymore.

We don't live in a world where business and personalities are as divorced as they once were. This is a small, intimate industry of creatives; if you've got not one, but dozens of accounts of hideously criminal, exploitative and dangerous behavior? Eventually you will get some backlash. Zak's pretty famous for personal, vindictive counter-attacks when he's called into any kind of question. You tell me; what kind of healthy personality does that?

Even Pundit, for all the shade he draws, is at least specific about the behaviors and attitudes he's responding to in his arguments. What's more, his arguments are fully explained, articulated, and don't rely on the kind of eyerolling, sneering elitism that so characterizes Zak's discourse.

Again, I've been Zak's fan for years; his stuff is great. But even if you've got the best GM on planet earth (and doubtless Zak is a contender), there can come a point where their behavior is such that you stop going to their table: it's not worth it anymore.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1075868This made me laugh:





Of course, one reason I laughed is that Shark very obviously paints large groups of individuals with the same brush - the very behavior that liberals accuse all the various 'ists' of doing...  



For what it's worth, I don't think that removing Zak's name from the credits is the appropriate response, even if he is a piece of shit.  I can understand how they'd prefer not to associate with someone who they have deep disagreements with, but trying to pretend that they didn't consult with him is factually wrong and cowardly.  If they have a problem with his actions and support believe the accusations against him, they should actually say that.  If they don't believe the accusations, they don't HAVE to say anything, but it certainly would be nice toward Zak S if they did.  

Of course, what I'd have liked to see is them take a moment to address that there can be a lot of hostility to new people entering the hobby, and since the hobby largely started as groups of white guys playing on University Campuses, that the hobby can be unwelcoming to women and people of color.  Fantasy is enriched when more people contribute their stories - D&D should aim for inclusiveness because more options are better.  Nobody can make you use something you don't like at your table - encouraging more people to follow their passion in this hobby is a good thing.  Perhaps in the future in addition to mechanics, they should include consultants to help make game releases more representative and therefore more popular.  I certainly think that a more welcoming hobby with more active players is good for someone like me.

Where and when was this unwelcoming hobby? It certainly wasn't where I was playing. The person who kept after me to try gaming from the mid-70s until 1980 when I succumbed was a woman, the first gaming table I sat at was multi-ethnic and multi-gender. I never saw a game with no women or gay people in it until I went to a con and that was not my usual experience at cons. The only people I remember not welcoming were a guy who always named his character stone arrow and someone who could not shut up about a different system. So, we set aside a night for him to run it and he didn't know the system and had none of the books and so forth.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1075973Yeah your full of shit.  You are defending people who are more than happy to destroy the first amendment.  They literally go out to beat people up just to intimidate others from speaking.  They are evil and deserve to have the army to stomp on their asses.

So what? If the Constitution is worth anything, and it is, the rights of even rotten people must be preserved.

Spinachcat:

People who live honest lives don't have dirt to be dug up. And I live an honest life.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1076579What sense of morality? What are you sticking by?

You might not like Zak, his online attitude, his porno lifestyle, or his work, but where does He Said / She Said hearsay demand "drumming out of the business he earned"?

What happens when we all hear the "truth" about Darrin Kelley? What happens when your ex-somebody declares you a monster? And if not you, maybe someone you care about?

On that day, will Darrin Kelley "deserve the drumming" the online mob is braying for?

ZakS may be everything Mandy said and more. The operative word is "may".

We, the online spectators to this sad spectacle, have no facts, just hearsay, and there's nothing "moral" about damning people on hearsay.

Evidently, ZakS is quite publicly an asshat and people might not want to do business with him or associate with him for that reason.
However, he has not had due process concerning the really serious charges that have recently come up.
Due process used to be important and it still matters except for some crimes. Crimes so horrific, apparently, that no proof of guilt is needed.
Hundreds of years of struggle to get due process
And now we are supposed to applaud lynchings.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1076591Evidently, ZakS is quite publicly an asshat and people might not want to do business with him or associate with him for that reason.
However, he has not had due process concerning the really serious charges that have recently come up.
Due process used to be important and it still matters except for some crimes. Crimes so horrific, apparently, that no proof of guilt is needed.
Hundreds of years of struggle to get due process
And now we are supposed to applaud lynchings.

I wouldn't applaud lynching him.
Boycotting him is another matter.

BTW, hearsay is "I heard X say Y did Z". hear - say. Eyewitness testimony is not hearsay.

Quote from: Azraele;1076584I think it's important to realize that there's a huge mountain of evidence that has nothing to do with hearsay. There's loads of perfectly legitimate reasons to dislike or wish to do no further business with Zak; he's combative, dismissive, elitist, and consistently mocks and belittles those with whom he disagrees. I don't need hearsay to tell me that; his blog has been in my favorites list for years, it's easily observable evidence that clearly exhibits his character.

One of the reasons this is striking a lot of his fans (like me) so close to home is that, when the first wave of controversies surrounding him hit (there have subsequently been an embarrassing amount more), Mandi's defense of him re-characterized his behavior in terms of someone who, though not entirely objective (she was dating him at the time) nonetheless was personally close to him and could "fill in" the gaps that we saw in his humanity looking only through the lens of online interaction (where, let's be real, we all look like assbags of some variety).

For that entire defense to not only be a lie, but one manufactured to allow him to continue demeaning, pointlessly cruel online behavior? That's a betrayal of our trust as fans. Even if you don't give a crap about what actually went down between him and Mandi and apparently a gaggle of other victims, he betrayed us by lying to us.

I, like you, don't care much about online hearsay. But yeah, I'm personally done with the guy; I'm not burning his books, but I'm not recommending them anymore either. I'm not asking people to boycott him, but I'm not following him on twitter or going to his blog anymore.

We don't live in a world where business and personalities are as divorced as they once were. This is a small, intimate industry of creatives; if you've got not one, but dozens of accounts of hideously criminal, exploitative and dangerous behavior? Eventually you will get some backlash. Zak's pretty famous for personal, vindictive counter-attacks when he's called into any kind of question. You tell me; what kind of healthy personality does that?

Even Pundit, for all the shade he draws, is at least specific about the behaviors and attitudes he's responding to in his arguments. What's more, his arguments are fully explained, articulated, and don't rely on the kind of eyerolling, sneering elitism that so characterizes Zak's discourse.

Again, I've been Zak's fan for years; his stuff is great. But even if you've got the best GM on planet earth (and doubtless Zak is a contender), there can come a point where their behavior is such that you stop going to their table: it's not worth it anymore.

Did he admit that he faked that Mandi post/defense?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1076590Spinachcat:

People who live honest lives don't have dirt to be dug up. And I live an honest life.

It's not about honest life. It's what do you do if someone makes it all up about you.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1076598Did he admit that he faked that Mandi post/defense?

Even if he didn't, doesn't she damage her own credibility if she's lying? I mean; she either lies to fit a narrative (now and then) or she's telling the truth about lying then. There's not some third option that makes her original defense sound anymore, no matter what he admits to.

Quote from: Azraele;1076584I think it's important to realize that there's a huge mountain of evidence that has nothing to do with hearsay. There's loads of perfectly legitimate reasons to dislike or wish to do no further business with Zak; he's combative, dismissive, elitist, and consistently mocks and belittles those with whom he disagrees. I don't need hearsay to tell me that; his blog has been in my favorites list for years, it's easily observable evidence that clearly exhibits his character.

I keep seeing people say this and I have to wonder if the mountain of evidence is real then why is the serial rapist not arrested or charged with a crime?

Is our justice system really so broken? I'm just seeing a fairly large disconnect between what everyone believes he did and the actual legal consequences.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1076626I keep seeing people say this and I have to wonder if the mountain of evidence is real then why is the serial rapist not arrested or charged with a crime?

Is our justice system really so broken? I'm just seeing a fairly large disconnect between what everyone believes he did and the actual legal consequences.

Failed to read the post you replied to, I see.

It's small wonder that you've also failed to note Zak's consistently malfeasencent communication habits and needlessly combative online interactions with that unsurprising lack of reading comprehension.

But here? I've noted people tend to read and understand things before publically responding to them.

Pity for you, you failed to follow that example.

Quote from: Azraele;1076654Failed to read the post you replied to, I see.

It's small wonder that you've also failed to note Zak's consistently malfeasencent communication habits and needlessly combative online interactions with that unsurprising lack of reading comprehension.

But here? I've noted people tend to read and understand things before publically responding to them.

Pity for you, you failed to follow that example.

I know almost nothing about Zak and asked a simple question about how there can be "mountains of evidence" for illegal behavior and no charges pressed or arrest made.

Unless someone presses charges, they are just allegations.  And allegations are not proof of misconduct.

Quote from: Azraele;1076584I think it's important to realize that there's a huge mountain of evidence that has nothing to do with hearsay. There's loads of perfectly legitimate reasons to dislike or wish to do no further business with Zak; he's combative, dismissive, elitist, and consistently mocks and belittles those with whom he disagrees. I don't need hearsay to tell me that; his blog has been in my favorites list for years, it's easily observable evidence that clearly exhibits his character.

I agree with this.  

It's normal to want to stand by your friends even if you know they're doing things that you don't approve of.  Someone can be a literal Nazi or a card-carrying member of the KKK and have a wife, family and friends.  And if you aren't associated with a group that they dislike, they can be quite charming, I'm sure.  Even if they've never done anything to you, you should ask yourself at what point does your friendship enable behaviors that you don't approve of.  

In Zak's case, a lot of his prior defenses were 'if you don't believe me, ask Mandy'.  So when Mandy makes an allegation, a whole bunch of his prior defenses are called into question.  It isn't one thing - it's just the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of people.  Even if this specific allegation isn't true, combined with so many negative behaviors and the preponderance of various accusations unrelated to this now worth reviewing, it's possible to make the decision that you don't want to be enabling his behavior.  That's a decision that every individual is entitled to make for themselves.  

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1076588Where and when was this unwelcoming hobby?

Did you hear about the Gnome problem in 4th edition?  Gnomes are not a popular race.  They decided that they didn't need Gnomes.  Turns out that it was a really unpopular decision.  Even though most players weren't interested in gnomes, a large number of groups were.  If the average group is 5 people and 10% of players like gnomes, there's a good chance that half the players are playing with someone who likes a gnome.  

The way this works with someone being unwelcoming is just like this - if even one player in 10 is an asshat and doesn't like playing with women (or thinks that their characters need to be given statistical adjustments that reduce their Strength, Constitution, Intelligence and offer a bonus to Charisma) or a minority, there's a good chance that women and minorities have experienced being unwelcome even if your table has always been welcoming.  I've seen some things that I don't approve of - back in the day I didn't say more to stop it.  There are plenty of anecdotes available from the people that the abusive behavior was aimed at, so I don't think my experiences as an observer are particularly relevant (I'm a white cis male).  

Quote from: Rhedyn;1076626I keep seeing people say this and I have to wonder if the mountain of evidence is real then why is the serial rapist not arrested or charged with a crime?

Is our justice system really so broken? I'm just seeing a fairly large disconnect between what everyone believes he did and the actual legal consequences.

The justice system is really so broken.  I could come here and make the claim that I am going to rape my wife (ie, force her to have sexual relations against her will).  Even with a mountain of evidence that it happened, a prosecutor would still have to bring the charges.  Since the crime would have presumably happened with only two witnesses, we have a classic 'he said/she said' situation.  If I claim that this was some type of agreed upon role-play, there are a lot of people who would choose to believe it.  Even if my claims were not credible, approximately 1/4 Americans don't believe in marital rape - with a jury of 12 people the odds of me being convicted are small.  Prosecutors are largely evaluated by their win rate - taking a case that you're unlikely to win is not in their best interest.  Prosecuting real crimes is difficult - so difficult that 97% of Federal Cases and 94% of State cases end in a plea deal.  Prosecutors would rather offer a 'token penalty' with the potential of a severe sentence as a consequence to avoid a trial.  There are a lot of ways our legal system is broken, and rape cases are just one example.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1076661Unless someone presses charges, they are just allegations.  And allegations are not proof of misconduct.

Even if someone does press charges, that's still not proof. It's just allegations that the defendant could be found innocent of. A conviction would be the closest thing to proof.

I would note, for example, that Matt Loter is accused of assault on Jeremy Hambly - but he has not yet been convicted of anything. There is a civil suit against him, but it is still in process. I'm not sure if any criminal charges have been filed.

There are also convictions that have been overturned for one reason or another, including 364 (https://www.innocenceproject.org/dna-exonerations-in-the-united-states/) exonerations based off of DNA evidence.  

There are a lot of day-to-day activities that you accept without iron-clad proof. If someone tells me the kettle is hot, I don't feel inclined to 'prove it'.

If being an asshole on the internet is a good reason to ban someone from an event, I daresay 99% of us have come across as assholes to someone.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1076719If being an asshole on the internet is a good reason to ban someone from an event, I daresay 99% of us have come across as assholes to someone.

Hey man look, don't drag the good name of internet assholes through the mud here. There's a universe of difference between the shit I do and a guy who's consistently accused of detestable crimes by huge volumes of industry notables and insistent/consistent people with an ever-growing body of experiential evidence.

You've got to seriously torture logic to see Zak as the constant victim of a decade of well-orchestrated character assassination when people like Ken Hite and Patrick Stewart (others he's enlisted to legitimize himself, because his conduct never has) both came out with statements confirming his moral turpitude.

That's a far cry from even the worst shit guys like Pundit have done or even been accused of doing. Don't make false equivalencies.

Quote from: Azraele;1076600Even if he didn't, doesn't she damage her own credibility if she's lying? I mean; she either lies to fit a narrative (now and then) or she's telling the truth about lying then. There's not some third option that makes her original defense sound anymore, no matter what he admits to.

I see, so you're saying either way she can't be trusted. But then doesn't that throw doubt on what she's saying as far as being anti-Zak too?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1076726I see, so you're saying either way she can't be trusted. But then doesn't that throw doubt on what she's saying as far as being anti-Zak too?

Yes it does.

Quote from: Azraele;1076722You've got to seriously torture logic to see Zak as the constant victim of a decade of well-orchestrated character assassination when people like Ken Hite and Patrick Stewart...

I think you mean Patrick Stuart.  I don't know who that is, but he seems to be someone in the RPG scene, as opposed to Patrick Stewart who is the captain of the Enterprise C.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1076726I see, so you're saying either way she can't be trusted. But then doesn't that throw doubt on what she's saying as far as being anti-Zak too?

Of course, if we follow the logic of her lack trustworthiness. The problem is, Zak relied on her defense for years to legitimize his observably bad behavior: her defense included an excuse for a bigger picutre to his personality that we didn't see. If you remove that from him, the only evidence you can glean as an internet rando is:

1) That all of his co-workers and allies with established credibility have backed up her statement of his moral turpitude
2) Waves of people claim personal damage and harassment from Zak and people who support him, and have screenshot of him ordering his fanbase to "destroy" people making accusations against him
3) His word against recorded evidence of him posing as Shannon Appelcline in online debate in some sort of trolling or smear campaign (to my knowledge his defense of this was that someone he knew that used his computer was doing this, not him: as far as defenses go, not a strong one)
4) His insistence on "real" evidence to back up any claim again him, and his vigorous and never-ending smear campaigns and discrediting screeds against anyone who dares to present such evidence
5) His decades of combative and inflammatory posting habits in every place any evidence of this can be gathered
6) The site a friend of his made defending him by trying desperately to catalog the evidence exonerating him of these wrongdoings which was abandoned in frustration by said friend because the evidence just kept piling up against Zak
7) His continues tactic of enlisting new people (whose credentials we can't establish) to legitimize his behavior because, again, his actual behavior does not withstand scrutiny and points to him as a manipulative, deceitful and vindictive person

I mean look, maybe all of that doesn't convince you he's a bad person, or someone you're just tired of because his work isn't worth the trouble of his personality. But I've personally finally reached the point where I'm tired of listening to him tell me to disbelieve my own powers of reason and observation; his skill as a liar and manipulator have run out, because there's no longer any credibility to support that perspective.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076738I think you mean Patrick Stuart.  I don't know who that is, but he seems to be someone in the RPG scene, as opposed to Patrick Stewart who is the captain of the Enterprise C.

Those are different people?! XD

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076738Patrick Stewart who is the captain of the Enterprise C.

You fail at Star Trek. Picard (Stewart) was captain of the Stargazer, Enterprise-D, and Enterprise-E. He did not captain the Enterprise-C.

Huh.  I typed D originally, than I googled it and that showed up as the one with the third nacel (the one that Captain Riker commanded from the future).  I guess that was just an upgraded version of the D.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076746Huh.  I typed D originally, than I googled it and that showed up as the one with the third nacel (the one that Captain Riker commanded from the future).  I guess that was just an upgraded version of the D.

That was the DD. The two Ds are for a double-dose of Starfleet pimpin!

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1076590Spinachcat:

People who live honest lives don't have dirt to be dug up. And I live an honest life.

Do you? All it takes is for someone to say you did something, that there IS dirt and that is it.

Or worse. Someone screws you over and then paints you as the villain, the abuser.

I used to game with a person who did exactly that. For fun. To people they meet online. Gain Darrin's trust and then totally crush it. And then move on to the next victim with the sob story of how Darrin was so mean to them and it was so heartbreaking what he did. Repeat that across several more. It does not matter what Darrin says, he is obviously a lying creep and should be ostracized.

A few years back I met one of his cronies who informed me this person does this to people for real as well. Not just online.

False accusations is not anything new. It is just getting more prevalent in recent years.

As for Zak and Mandy. Who knows what really happened. In the current false accusations climate we exist in now we have no choice but to pause and wonder who is telling the truth. And we will likely never know for sure. Considering Zak's attitude issues he has pretty much set the stage for his own downfall. Not helped that there are fruitcakes like Zwei out there gunning for him and others who will just make stuff up or cherry pick comments to paint whatever picture they want.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1076599It's not about honest life. It's what do you do if someone makes it all up about you.

Exactly. Or in this case. What do you do as a bystander when all there is is the word of one and the bad attitude of the other>

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1076590People who live honest lives don't have dirt to be dug up. And I live an honest life.

Famous last words. Do you think outrage mobs even care if allegations against their target are true?

When in history has an honest life protected someone from a senseless mob?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1076590Spinachcat:

People who live honest lives don't have dirt to be dug up. And I live an honest life.

On a lark I googled your name, found an old thread from 2007 (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23534&start=30) (a Mutants and Masterminds thread). It's not an important thread, other than to say that in it Taliesin is posting and you're responding to him. Yes, that  Taliesin, from Critical Role. YEARS before Critical Role existed. You know, that guy Pundit is constantly saying is "just an actor" who is "not a gamer"? Yeah that guy.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

Quote from: Mistwell;1076792On a lark I googled your name, found an old thread from 2007 (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23534&start=30) (a Mutants and Masterminds thread). It's not an important thread, other than to say that in it Taliesin is posting and you're responding to him. Yes, that  Taliesin, from Critical Role. YEARS before Critical Role existed. You know, that guy Pundit is constantly saying is "just an actor" who is "not a gamer"? Yeah that guy.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

Not so off-topic... that is exactly the sort of guilt by association the SJW crew employ to label you an "unperson." One selfie taken six years ago with an unperson and you can be un-personed for having associated with them... even if that unperson you're associated with was condemned for something that happened four years after the picture was taken and you've never seen them in all the years since.

Quote from: Chris24601;1076806Not so off-topic... that is exactly the sort of guilt by association the SJW crew employ to label you an "unperson." One selfie taken six years ago with an unperson and you can be un-personed for having associated with them... even if that unperson you're associated with was condemned for something that happened four years after the picture was taken and you've never seen them in all the years since.

Better safe than sorry. We can't take risks when the potential for literal Nazis creeping into our communities is real. There may be casualties, but it's necessary.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1076920Better safe than sorry. We can't take risks when the potential for literal Nazis creeping into our communities is real. There may be casualties, but it's necessary.

You say that in the belief that you won't be one of those casualties.

Good luck.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1076920Better safe than sorry. We can't take risks when the potential for literal Nazis creeping into our communities is real. There may be casualties, but it's necessary.

Not just Nazis...

...Boob Nazis!!! :eek:

(read the thread)

Quote from: Snark Knight;1076920Better safe than sorry. We can't take risks when the potential for literal Nazis creeping into our communities is real. There may be casualties, but it's necessary.

As a German who has kinda lived on the frontlines to communism from a global perspective, I happen to recognize this thinking. What I am hearing here is the literal ideology of the now defunct East German GDR.
Gentle reminder: the Berlin wall was build in the name of fighting fascism ("antifaschistischer Schutzwall"). Keeping out Nazis. (Not entrapping citizens who want to emigrate to a functioning economy, no.) Countless crimes against humanity have been perpetrated in the name of fighting an imagined (or rather: asserted) fascism from 1949 onwards.

It's funny how Mankind only has learned lessons from the first half of the 20th century. But NO lesson from the 2nd half of the 20th century whatsoever.
And when I say it's funny, I mean it's disgusting.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1076920Better safe than sorry. We can't take risks when the potential for literal Nazis creeping into our communities is real. There may be casualties, but it's necessary.

I understood this to be Snark Knight's attempt to characterize what he perceives to be the SJW response.  That is, the only people who are saying that the SJWs would say something is Chris24601 (not an SJW) and Snark Knight (not an SJW) agreeing with him.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076950I understood this to be Snark Knight's attempt to characterize what he perceives to be the SJW response.  That is, the only people who are saying that the SJWs would say something is Chris24601 (not an SJW) and Snark Knight (not an SJW) agreeing with him.

You would be

Spoiler

correct.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1076350Zak. S is a piece of crap.

Perhaps. But is his writing any good? I don't actually care about anything else, as I don't know anybody involved personally.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1076957Perhaps. But is his writing any good? I don't actually care about anything else, as I don't know anybody involved personally.

Make no mistake: his writing is goddamn fantastic. It almost physically hurts to know I'll never justify buying another work of his. And this is from one of the biggest snobs on this site.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1076954You would be

Spoiler

correct.

8 posts means I haven't gotten a feel for your style yet.

Quote from: Azraele;1076961Make no mistake: his writing is goddamn fantastic. It almost physically hurts to know I'll never justify buying another work of his.

This is so strange to me.

Cervantes did time for fraud. No more Don Quixote.
Jack Henry Abbott did armed robbery, and murdered two people - including one after his release from prison. No more In the Belly of the Beast.
William Burroughs shot and killed his wife.
Louis Althusser killed his wife, too. Leftie philosopher, by the way.
Maria Geel murdered her lover, just to show that women writers can murder spouses, too.
Oscar Wilde did time for gross indecency - having had sex with a 17 year old boy.
Thomas Malory was locked up for attempted murder, robbery and rape. No more Le Morte D'Arthur for us.

This short list shows just a few of the actual criminal authours the world has had, and doesn't even begin to touch on the morally defunct ones, the drug addicts and drunks and guys screwing around on their wives and gaslighting the fuck out of them. Nor does it even consider the ones who were sexist, racist, homophobic or the like. As for movie-makers and musicians... shit man, let's not even start.

No more Michael Jackson, for a start.

If you require moral purity of your authours, you are going to have a rather bare bookshelf, and had best not go to the cinema or turn on the radio at all.

"Books are well written, or badly written. That is all." - Oscar Wilde, convicted paedophile

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1076969This is so strange to me.

Cervantes did time for fraud. No more Don Quixote.
Jack Henry Abbott did armed robbery, and murdered two people - including one after his release from prison. No more In the Belly of the Beast.
William Burroughs shot and killed his wife.
Louis Althusser killed his wife, too. Leftie philosopher, by the way.
Maria Geel murdered her lover, just to show that women writers can murder spouses, too.
Oscar Wilde did time for gross indecency - having had sex with a 17 year old boy.
Thomas Malory was locked up for attempted murder, robbery and rape. No more Le Morte D'Arthur for us.

This short list shows just a few of the actual criminal authours the world has had, and doesn't even begin to touch on the morally defunct ones, the drug addicts and drunks and guys screwing around on their wives and gaslighting the fuck out of them. Nor does it even consider the ones who were sexist, racist, homophobic or the like. As for movie-makers and musicians... shit man, let's not even start.

No more Michael Jackson, for a start.

If you require moral purity of your authours, you are going to have a rather bare bookshelf, and had best not go to the cinema or turn on the radio at all.

"Books are well written, or badly written. That is all." - Oscar Wilde, convicted paedophile

Greetings!

Kyle, that was a brilliant post that you made.:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Not so fast Mr Shark! (I mean, don't stop, else you will sink (https://www.amnh.org/learn/pd/sharks_rays/rfl_myth/index.html), but slow down a bunch, eh?)

Kyle is comparing apples with oranges. Most of those folks were long dead before I (an old guy) were exposed to their works. As brilliant as they are, I don't consider their works, at the cost of the misery they* inflicted, a reasonable trade.
*some, not all
But in 2019 the damage is already done. We can enjoy their works without rewarding (https://socialjusticeleaguenet.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/) the authors for their misdeeds.


But when living artists are revealed to be terrible people, it is appropriate to shun their work. It doesn't mean their work isn't good, brilliant even. It's that the authors - and in turn, ourselves - are supposed to pay an appropriate price. Eventually that price becomes a deterrent. And that's a good thing.

There's another element, particularly applicable in the case of Harvey Weinstein and the like: how much genius have we been denied because these monsters put their deviancy ahead of the world's opportunity to benefit from unknown talent? We can't ever know, and that's a crying shame.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1076969Oscar Wilde did time for gross indecency - having had sex with a 17 year old boy.
Thomas Malory was locked up for attempted murder, robbery and rape. No more Le Morte D'Arthur for us.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1076969If you require moral purity of your authours, you are going to have a rather bare bookshelf, and had best not go to the cinema or turn on the radio at all.

"Books are well written, or badly written. That is all." - Oscar Wilde, convicted paedophile

I agree with you on much of this - but this is ridiculous equivalence. 17 is the age of consent in much of the U.S., Canada, and Europe even at present. In England at the time, the age of consent was 16. There were plenty of respectable relationships with 17 year olds. Oscar Wilde was convicted for being a homosexual, not for pedophilia.

That said, I do think it is different when a living author is getting royalties from buying their work. For the most part, I don't care about an author's views - but I am put off from buying the work of murderers and other extremes (which Wilde certainly doesn't count as).

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1076969No more Michael Jackson, for a start.

Except Jackson was the victim of false accusation as was proven in court.

Quote from: Motorskills;1076973Not so fast Mr Shark! (I mean, don't stop, else you will sink (https://www.amnh.org/learn/pd/sharks_rays/rfl_myth/index.html), but slow down a bunch, eh?)

Kyle is comparing apples with oranges. Most of those folks were long dead before I (an old guy) were exposed to their works. As brilliant as they are, I don't consider their works, at the cost of the misery they* inflicted, a reasonable trade.
*some, not all
But in 2019 the damage is already done. We can enjoy their works without rewarding (https://socialjusticeleaguenet.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/) the authors for their misdeeds.


But when living artists are revealed to be terrible people, it is appropriate to shun their work. It doesn't mean their work isn't good, brilliant even. It's that the authors - and in turn, ourselves - are supposed to pay an appropriate price. Eventually that price becomes a deterrent. And that's a good thing.

There's another element, particularly applicable in the case of Harvey Weinstein and the like: how much genius have we been denied because these monsters put their deviancy ahead of the world's opportunity to benefit from unknown talent? We can't ever know, and that's a crying shame.

Greetings!

LOLOLOLOLOLOL! Ah, Motorskills. That was very funny! Hmmm...you make a worthwhile point there. There is some difference between some folks being long dead, and some moron that is like, right online, ranting at you in response to you no longer being a customer or fan for their terrible behavior concerning whatever. I understand the distinction.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

There is some distinction between those extant and those departed, however I see a disturbing trend in this. That people, Motorskills for one, seem to believe that he can determine what is an appropriate price to pay for alleged transgressions. While, no doubt Zak is a tool, I take what both of them said with a salt lick. Unless you actually witnessed this alleged behavior, you are hanging your hat on unsubstantiated allegations and trying to punish based on that. THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. Just because you want to believe someone is a horrid person, and probably is, it is inappropriate to punish them until you actually have evidence of their crime. You are essentially denying them due process (yes I am aware that has to do with the courts, but in principle it is good to observe in all such cases). Now if you feel ruining reputations, denying income, et al are appropriate for someone being an internet asshole, you'd better hope like hell no one applies the same standard to you.

Quote from: shuddemell;1076986There is some distinction between those extant and those departed, however I see a disturbing trend in this. That people, Motorskills for one, seem to believe that he can determine what is an appropriate price to pay for alleged transgressions. While, no doubt Zak is a tool, I take what both of them said with a salt lick. Unless you actually witnessed this alleged behavior, you are hanging your hat on unsubstantiated allegations and trying to punish based on that. THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. Just because you want to believe someone is a horrid person, and probably is, it is inappropriate to punish them until you actually have evidence of their crime. You are essentially denying them due process (yes I am aware that has to do with the courts, but in principle it is good to observe in all such cases). Now if you feel ruining reputations, denying income, et al are appropriate for someone being an internet asshole, you'd better hope like hell no one applies the same standard to you.

Greetings!

Indeed, my friend. I have from the beginning felt that everyone invoved--Zak, Mandy, etc--should have kept the whole sordid affair *private*. Furthermore, any criminal actions should have been reported and filed in a court of law, with proper jurisprudence proceeding thereupon. Evidently, however, that is not an ideologically popular position to hold. That is what I believe though.

The distinction, in so far as it is evidently publicly known, I can understand why someone as an individual would choose not to be a customer, or what have you. For example, I chose not to patronize the Dixie Chicks because of their anti-American statements made in public, on a foreign platform, while our nation was engaged in warfare on foreign shores.

However, even when I offer such an example, it is not based on murky hearsay, he said/she said--but specific commentary broadcast and recorded in public, from which the Dixie Chicks were undeniably guilty of. Many Americans likewise made a similar decision, and the Dixie Chicks country music career took a lightning-fast nosedive into the gutter. Their career has henceforth never really recovered.

With the Zak/Mandy affair, there is no certain evidence for an uninvolved viewer to make such an assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim;1076980That said, I do think it is different when a living author is getting royalties from buying their work. For the most part, I don't care about an author's views - but I am put off from buying the work of murderers and other extremes (which Wilde certainly doesn't count as).

The flip side is: what should the livelihood of a murderer be? It's one thing if you have followed a trial and think someone has been unjustifiably acquitted. But in our western democracies it's basically not up to citizens to punish fellow citizens privately, not even through economic sanctions. In fact, we need to lower sentences for convicted criminals by taking into account any irregular de facto (even if that is not the intent) punishment outside of the judicial system.

Quote from: Omega;1076981Except Jackson was the victim of false accusation as was proven in court.

Awful lot of false accusers.
From yesterday - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6753623/Michael-Jackson-victims-say-late-pop-star-told-first.html

In reality of course they failed to prove Jackson guilty in court when he was prosecuted, they did not prove him innocent.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1076990But in our western democracies it's basically not up to citizens to punish fellow citizens privately, not even through economic sanctions.

Better go buy MYFAROG then...

Of course in reality we are indeed at liberty to punish murderers and other criminals via not buying from them. Just as some people refused to buy South African peaches (yum, tasty) during Apartheid.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1076969Cervantes did time for fraud. No more Don Quixote.
Jack Henry Abbott did armed robbery, and murdered two people - including one after his release from prison. No more In the Belly of the Beast.
William Burroughs shot and killed his wife.
Louis Althusser killed his wife, too. Leftie philosopher, by the way.
Maria Geel murdered her lover, just to show that women writers can murder spouses, too.
Oscar Wilde did time for gross indecency - having had sex with a 17 year old boy.
Thomas Malory was locked up for attempted murder, robbery and rape. No more Le Morte D'Arthur for us.

Personally I'll avoid most authors from 18th century onwards if their behaviour was sufficiently reprehensible. I might (did) read Rousseau for research purposes, but with the same attitude I'd take to reading Mein Kampf (not read).  Scepticism informed by knowledge of the appalling character of the author.

A medieval author like Malory is so alien, I'm already not identifying with what he writes - 'heroic' Paladin decapitates the wife of some bad knight on more or less a whim - so knowing he's a rapist and would-be murderer as well makes little difference.

Quote from: shuddemell;1076986You are essentially denying them due process (yes I am aware that has to do with the courts, but in principle it is good to observe in all such cases).

Not really, no.

This worship of legalism - all the world's a courtroom - seems extra weird to me considering I teach law for a living.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1076990The flip side is: what should the livelihood of a murderer be?

Well IMO they should normally be executed, and otherwise they should be imprisoned for life, so it shouldn't come up much.

(sorry about all the separate posts, in a rush & bad at multiquote!)

Quote from: S'mon;1076999Well IMO they should normally be executed, and otherwise they should be imprisoned for life, so it shouldn't come up much.

How about someone who's a boor and keeps coming on to women after they've shown they're not interested? Harassment? Assault? Professes to believe what the Catholic Church teaches about homosexuality and transgenderism?

What is an appropriate financial penalty for them? Are they to be driven from all employment and financially ruined forever? What jobs can they still hold without expecting the moral harpies to drive them from it? At what point does the punishment exceed the crime (and sometimes not even a crime, just uncouth behavior or wrongthink)?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1076957Perhaps. But is his writing any good?

I didn't find his gaming products to be to my taste. They're kinda gimmicky, and the writing strives (rather painfully, IMO) to be Art. A lot of people seem to disagree with my opinion, but I don't get the appeal. I think he was pretty good at capturing attention and selling himself and his products.

Quote from: S'mon;1076998Not really, no.

This worship of legalism - all the world's a courtroom - seems extra weird to me considering I teach law for a living.

No worship here, however I disagree that something as foundational as due process, which when accusations are leveled in a public forum, particularly about things that are criminal in nature, are something we should afford some degree of circumspection as to not unfairly tar someone with a life altering brush. While you may believe it's okay to just assume someone's guilt, I do not. Particularly when I am not actually privy to the actual event. Anytime someone is tried in the court of public opinion prior to an actual trial, they are denied due process. I find the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" to be the bedrock of our legal system, and even our very society. Something less serious that isn't a crime is certainly more open to such sanctions, but I find them premature without some standard of proof.

Quote from: S'mon;1076998This worship of legalism - all the world's a courtroom - seems extra weird to me considering I teach law for a living.

That's because a worship of legalism benefits the government and the people who make their living from it, so they indoctrinate people to believe it is infallible and beyond mere mortal (non-lawyer, non-government) comprehension.  Even though 95% of current law in the world is only there to keep the lower strata of people oppressed.  That's is why governments and the elite ignore it when it suits their purposes.

That being said, I don't believe shuddemell was considering it in the legal sense, I think he was hearkening back to the actual moral/philosophical principle that the 'innocent until proven guilty' legal concept was based on.  From a moral standpoint it is the only philosophical approach that actually leads to any sort of just, egalitarian society as opposed to tyrannical despotism.

Damn, ninja'd by the great worm himself...

Quote from: Warboss Squee;10769648 posts means I haven't gotten a feel for your style yet.

I'll forgive you, but just this once.

Quote from: Chris24601;1077001How about someone who's a boor and keeps coming on to women after they've shown they're not interested? Harassment? Assault? Professes to believe what the Catholic Church teaches about homosexuality and transgenderism?

What is an appropriate financial penalty for them? Are they to be driven from all employment and financially ruined forever? What jobs can they still hold without expecting the moral harpies to drive them from it? At what point does the punishment exceed the crime (and sometimes not even a crime, just uncouth behavior or wrongthink)?

The artist community is always going to have a different relationship with their public than other forms of employment.  The physical things you buy - your computer, your keyboard, even your cup of coffee - effectively could have been made by ANYONE without changing their intrinsic value.  Since art exists in the relationship of the audience to the performer, a revelation about the artist can disrupt that performance.  

Watching the Cosby show now, it's hard to see Cliff Huxtable's facial expressions as anything other than creepy.  

There's a spectrum - a live show is more engaging than a movie.  A minor character is perhaps less distracting than the primary character.  A book, like a movie, requires the audience to engage.  

Nobody has to read a book they don't like.  There are a lot of valid reasons to dislike a book, and a subset of them are 'the author is a jerk'.
 If the author physically assaulted you, I think you'd feel justified in not reading their book, even if you might like it if SOMEONE ELSE had written it.  Likewise if they assaulted your spouse or best friend.  Or maybe a stranger that you felt was innocent.  Ultimately, you get to decide where the line is.  There are a lot of reasons to recognize that Zak is an asshole.  And if that bothers you, there are a lot of reasons not to buy his works.  If it doesn't bother you and you like his works, buy away.  

I think there are a lot of ways to be unfair to someone for their past decisions; for example, I don't think that a school teacher that has a porn tape on the internet should be fired.  For second graders, that's not going to 'come up' if nobody tells them about it and people should be allowed to make mistakes.  

Game publishing is a creative hobby; gamers have a relationship with the creatives.  That works to encourage sales from people that are respected and is works to discourage sales from people that are disliked.  There are people who don't like the idea of needing to maintain a professional image, but that's the reality for everyone.  While it's certainly possible to go 'too far', nobody here (that I'm aware of) is advocating any kind of harassment campaign against Zak, or any plan to make sure he can't get any jobs in any other industry.  Am I mistaken?

Quote from: S'mon;1076996Better go buy MYFAROG then...

I would have if I wanted to have the game. Which I don't - but if he had published something appealing... sure, why not? He's done his time.

Quote from: S'mon;1076996Of course in reality we are indeed at liberty to punish murderers and other criminals via not buying from them. Just as some people refused to buy South African peaches (yum, tasty) during Apartheid.

Sure, I'm not arguing for taking that liberty away. I'm asking how people who have done their time should live (always those pesky questions :D ). Preferably in a way that makes them stay away from trouble. You say you want to kill them but any harsh punishment is bound to hurt many wrongly convicted people. Punishment needs to be tempered for the sake of those. The road from what you suggested to hanging Kavanaugh is shorter than one might think, I'm afraid.

Quote from: Chris24601;1077001How about someone who's a boor and keeps coming on to women after they've shown they're not interested? Harassment? Assault? Professes to believe what the Catholic Church teaches about homosexuality and transgenderism?

What is an appropriate financial penalty for them? Are they to be driven from all employment and financially ruined forever? What jobs can they still hold without expecting the moral harpies to drive them from it? At what point does the punishment exceed the crime (and sometimes not even a crime, just uncouth behavior or wrongthink)?

I think I've given my opinion about most of these elsewhere already. Bill Webb deserved to be booted from Paizo Con and told he can't drink or be drunk at conventions any more, or he'll be banned.

Despite being a Protestant-Atheist, these days I think real Catholics are kinda cool (and their women are very cute (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71E7cWu0DhL._UX250_.jpg)); I wouldn't punish them at all.

So I had dinner with one of the consultants this week. The conversation went a bit like this:

"So what do you think of ConsultantGate 2?"
"Er...I didn't know there was a ConsultantGate 1"
"You know, there was a pallava about Pundit and Zak S in the PHB when it was first published. Now WOTC have removed references to all the consultants in the wake of the Zak S issue. How do you feel about that?"
"Oh right. Well it sucks to be removed. But it's negligible compared to getting rid of that guy."


Now I won't say I captured the person's position perfectly, and clearly it wasn't top of their mental agenda anyway. But it also wouldn't surprise me if it was fairly representative of the rest of the consultants.

Quote from: S'mon;1077015I think I've given my opinion about most of these elsewhere already. Bill Webb deserved to be booted from Paizo Con and told he can't drink or be drunk at conventions any more, or he'll be banned.

Okay, but the point of my question was "for how long?" Presuming no new offenses crop up how long is he to be banned? How long does a writer's work become verboten? One year? Ten? The heat death of the universe?

At what point does the punishment exceed the crime and become an injustice itself?

I doubt WOTC will find from here on consultants that won't oblige them contractually to credit them and to credit them for as long as product X is on sale. And if necessary to detail the specifics of how to get credited.
But then again it's D&D and who knows what people are willing to do for being associated with the product.

Quote from: Chris24601;1077020Okay, but the point of my question was "for how long?" Presuming no new offenses crop up how long is he to be banned? How long does a writer's work become verboten? One year? Ten? The heat death of the universe?

At what point does the punishment exceed the crime and become an injustice itself?

I meant banned from that event. I guess if repeated then 3 years. If third time then life.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1076969If you require moral purity of your authours, you are going to have a rather bare bookshelf, and had best not go to the cinema or turn on the radio at all.

And eventually you'll cull that bookshelf down to only the very short Approved Reading List allowed by your moral authority. It's a good way to make absolutely certain that none of your wild beliefs are ever challenged.

People who think like this manage to seal themselves in ever-shrinking thought bubbles, eventually eliminating literally everyone and everything else. It would be entertaining to watch if it weren't so tragic.

Apparently, I am being too roundabout... I didn't mean just the specific instance you mentioned. I mean as general principle... at what point does the punishment inflicted for allegations of acts or statements that may or may not even be criminal (rude and uncouth or "wrongthink", but not criminal) exceed the crime?

Let's say nothing new comes up in relation to Zac S. He's never prosecuted for any crime and all the allegations remain as confirmed as they are now. How long from now before buying his products again becomes acceptable?

When does the unpersoning and deplatforming turn into the actual injustice?

Because the sense I'm getting is "forever" is perfectly fine for a lot of people.

That it's okay that  people should be driven forever from their careers without a trial.

The SJWs seem to think that anyone who ever associates with someone they've unpersoned should themselves be boycotted until they cast the unperson back into the wilderness (one suspects they'd cut off welfare too after making them unemployable if they could because unpersons don't deserve to live... that's why they were unpersoned in the first place).

And the fact that there seems to be no end... no point where one can say "they've suffered enough"... strikes me as the height of injustice.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

Quote from: Chris24601;1077029Apparently, I am being too roundabout... I didn't mean just the specific instance you mentioned. I mean as general principle... at what point does the punishment inflicted for allegations of acts or statements that may or may not even be criminal (rude and uncouth or "wrongthink", but not criminal) exceed the crime?

Let's say nothing new comes up in relation to Zac S. He's never prosecuted for any crime and all the allegations remain as confirmed as they are now. How long from now before buying his products again becomes acceptable?

I'm not planning to buy his stuff again. I didn't like him much anyway, and he's coming from a place I don't like.
Heck, I try to buy as little Paizo stuff as possible these days, ever since they went Full SJW.
I don't much care what other people do. I'm not going to buy anything from Varg Vikernes, but I'm not going to freak out that Thegn Thrand gave MYFAROG a positive review. If people want to keep buying Zak S stuff, whatever, I don't care. I am mildly annoyed by "I am going to buy Zak S stuff BECAUSE he is under SJW attack!" though - save your support for people who deserve it.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1077003I didn't find his gaming products to be to my taste. They're kinda gimmicky, and the writing strives (rather painfully, IMO) to be Art. A lot of people seem to disagree with my opinion, but I don't get the appeal. I think he was pretty good at capturing attention and selling himself and his products.

This is my position as well. Too many people drank the Kool-Aid and lauded ZakS as some sort of auteur when the reality is he just took conventional stories/backgrounds and subverted them slightly. Not to say his stuff is terrible, but I don't think it's demonstrably better than something like Stonehell Dungeon, and certainly less useful and interesting than anything by New Big Dragon. I guess for stuff to LOOK AT, his books are fine, but in actual play...not a fan whatsoever.

If you like his stuff, you can continue to buy it.  

If you like his stuff, but you don't want to support him because you think he's a bad person *for any reason*, don't buy his stuff.  Continue to not buy his stuff until you decide that you like his stuff so much that you're willing to buy it *even though he's a bad person* which might not ever happen.  

If you don't like his stuff, don't buy it.  

These are personal decisions - there is no right or wrong.  It's true that if he pisses off enough people (and he has tried REALLY HARD to do exactly that) he might destroy his career.  Actions have consequences.  

There is no mob and there is no organized campaign to destroy/discredit him.  There are people evaluating their opinion of him based on new evidence.  Some people are skeptical of the evidence and their opinion has shifted little; some people believe the evidence and their opinion has shifted a lot; some people believe the evidence and they already had a low opinion so nothing changed.  But any 'demand' that people start buying his stuff again after some suitable amount of time for punishment misses the point - people are free to make their decisions and express them online.  'I don't buy Zak's stuff because I think he's an asshole' is one type of opinion you'll see.  'I don't buy Zak's stuff because I think it is crap' is another type of opinion you might see.  I find the second one more compelling than the first, especially if I think the critic shares my tastes.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1077009I'll forgive you, but just this once.

Wasn't an apology.

There's still a big difference between "personal boycott" and something more organized (however that is done) and then onto coerced boycotting (such as removing access to distribution channels).  The bar should be a lot higher, the further you go on that continuum.  

I have "personal boycotts" of all kinds of things, for all kinds of reasons.  Sometimes, they probably wouldn't stand up to any kind of careful scrutiny, beyond--dislike the person enough that it impedes my enjoyment of their work.  I feel no need whatsoever to justify that kind of boycott.  It's not like I'm out there actively publicizing my dislike every chance I get, much less trying to have their works curtailed or even banned.  The more "in your face" an author is with the things that cause me to dislike them, the more likely I am to reciprocate by not buying.  

The more strict and widespread the boycott, the more onus is on the boycotters to justify it.  And the more they can be justly called out for bad reasoning, faulty evidence, etc.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1076969If you require moral purity of your authours, you are going to have a rather bare bookshelf, and had best not go to the cinema or turn on the radio at all.

For some, it's a matter of moral purity. For a great many others who engage in these social media lynchings, it's about tribal solidarity. It turns out the vastly expanded social networks we've been exposed to with modern technology have left many feeling tremendously insecure about their status. They desperately want to be recognized - even by strangers who they'll never meet - as good and moral folks. So they'll support/condemn all sorts of things if it means social validation from the crowd.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1077010Game publishing is a creative hobby; gamers have a relationship with the creatives.  That works to encourage sales from people that are respected and is works to discourage sales from people that are disliked.  There are people who don't like the idea of needing to maintain a professional image, but that's the reality for everyone.  While it's certainly possible to go 'too far', nobody here (that I'm aware of) is advocating any kind of harassment campaign against Zak, or any plan to make sure he can't get any jobs in any other industry.  Am I mistaken?

Personally, I think it's unhealthy for the audience to feel they have a personal relationship with creators. It can't have any good influence on the art itself, while the psychological needs fans are trying to satisfy would be better met through genuine two-way relationships with people who they interact with in meat-space: family, friends, co-workers, neighbours. Making creators a proxy for these relationships, and turning a hobby or art interest into a moral 'community', gives finger-wagging scolds and the insecure lonely greater scope to act out their pathologies on a lot of other people who just want to play a game or read a book.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1077048There's still a big difference between "personal boycott" and something more organized (however that is done) and then onto coerced boycotting (such as removing access to distribution channels).  The bar should be a lot higher, the further you go on that continuum.  

I agree. Removing Zak from DriveThru was a marginal call for me but on balance I'm ok with it. I'm ok if he's banned from Patreon, but I would be against him being banned by Paypal, Visa/Mastercard, or his bank.

Obviously I would be against innocent targets of SJW aggression like Grim & Venger, or lovable contrarian assholes like Pundit, being banned from DriveThru/RPGNow.

Quote from: Haffrung;1077063Personally, I think it's unhealthy for the audience to feel they have a personal relationship with creators.

I don't disagree; but I don't think as an author you can court your audience (as Zak did) and then protest that they don't like you.  He didn't HAVE to try to create a relationship; he thought it would help him.  It probably did until it didn't.  Assuming it didn't.  It's probably too soon to tell.  There are authors who I know nothing about - Zak made it a point of inserting himself into any discussion that touched on him or his activities.

Quote from: Motorskills;1076973Not so fast Mr Shark! (I mean, don't stop, else you will sink (https://www.amnh.org/learn/pd/sharks_rays/rfl_myth/index.html), but slow down a bunch, eh?)

Kyle is comparing apples with oranges. Most of those folks were long dead before I (an old guy) were exposed to their works. As brilliant as they are, I don't consider their works, at the cost of the misery they* inflicted, a reasonable trade.
*some, not all
But in 2019 the damage is already done. We can enjoy their works without rewarding (https://socialjusticeleaguenet.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/) the authors for their misdeeds.


But when living artists are revealed to be terrible people, it is appropriate to shun their work. It doesn't mean their work isn't good, brilliant even. It's that the authors - and in turn, ourselves - are supposed to pay an appropriate price. Eventually that price becomes a deterrent. And that's a good thing.

There's another element, particularly applicable in the case of Harvey Weinstein and the like: how much genius have we been denied because these monsters put their deviancy ahead of the world's opportunity to benefit from unknown talent? We can't ever know, and that's a crying shame.

I've long believed the art is not the artist, and one should separate the value of the art from the value of the artist.  When you start to purge art based on moral objections concerning the artist, I believe all of art is damaged by that purge.  But let's see if you really mean what you're saying?


Watched any movie attached to John Lasseter (Pixar) after he was accused? This means by the way you will never see any of these movies again until John Lasseter dies: Little Mermaid, Kiki's Delivery Service, Beauty and the Beast, Nightmare Before Christmas, Lion King, Toy Story (any), Bugs Life, Monsters Inc (any), Spirited Away, Finding Nemo (any), Incredibles (any), Howls' Moving Castle, Cars (any), Ratatouille, Wall-E, Up, Ponyo, Princes and the Frog, Winnie the Pooh, The Muppets, Brave, Big Hero 6, Wreck-It Ralph (any), Frozen (any), Inside Out, Zootopia, Moana, Coco, etc.

Watched any movie by Roman Polanski after he was accused in 1977?
James Franco?
Louis C.K.?
Richard Dreyfuss?
Dustin Hoffman?
Jeremy Piven?
Steven Seagal?
Tom Sizemore?
Kevin Spacey?
George Takei?
Harvey Weinsten?

Quote from: Motorskills;1076973Kyle is comparing apples with oranges. Most of those folks were long dead before I (an old guy) were exposed to their works.

So if Zak gets run over by a truck tomorrow, you can read his writing again?

Quote from: John KimI agree with you on much of this - but this is ridiculous equivalence. 17 is the age of consent in much of the U.S., Canada, and Europe even at present. In England at the time, the age of consent was 16. There were plenty of respectable relationships with 17 year olds. Oscar Wilde was convicted for being a homosexual, not for pedophilia.

Jurisdictions vary hugely in this. And circumstances vary; for example, here in Victoria it's 16 generally, but 18 if they're under your care. So legally I can have sex with a 16yo girl, but if I'm her schoolteacher it's sexual assault of a minor.

In most places, 18 or 21 are the ages of legal adulthood, being able to drink, vote, drive, marry and so on. Oscar Wilde had sex with a person who was not a legal adult. If he were around today, the press would call him a paedophile.

Quote from: OmegaExcept Jackson was the victim of false accusation as was proven in court.

More accusations have come to light since then, and they are detailed in a documentary showing in Australia right now.

Of course, Zak has not been convicted of any wrongdoing, he's simply been subject to public accusations. So... believe all victims of Zak, but don't believe all victims of Michael Jackson?

Quote from: HaffrungFor some, it's a matter of moral purity. For a great many others who engage in these social media lynchings, it's about tribal solidarity. It turns out the vastly expanded social networks we've been exposed to with modern technology have left many feeling tremendously insecure about their status. They desperately want to be recognized - even by strangers who they'll never meet - as good and moral folks. So they'll support/condemn all sorts of things if it means social validation from the crowd.

That's very insightful.

More importantly I do not want to put money in the pockets of known crooks, creeps, and whatnod. After they shuffle off the mortal coil? Thats a different issue. Hopefully.

"But that doesnt matter. All I want is my pwecious game!" is NOT an excuse. You are rewarding them by ignoring whatever it was they did. Or may still be doing.

I mean hey. That designer only slashed a kid with a knife, robbed a family, and stranded another kid. What does that matter when I really like that game! Here. Have some more money! And I had a person do EXACTLY this when informed of what had happened. And I've seen this in the art biz too.

Quote from: S'mon;1076995Awful lot of false accusers.
From yesterday - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6753623/Michael-Jackson-victims-say-late-pop-star-told-first.html

In reality of course they failed to prove Jackson guilty in court when he was prosecuted, they did not prove him innocent.

So if 1000 people say the same lie it's suddenly the truth to you?  I dunno man, I have no idea who this Zak S. is and I don't really care, but unless he's convicted of a crime, slandering him is not fair and can get you litigated.

Being a creep is not a crime (no matter how much the twatters want it to be), if it was, most of us in this very forum would be in jail (which by the way includes me.)

Quote from: Haffrung;1077063For some, it's a matter of moral purity. For a great many others who engage in these social media lynchings, it's about tribal solidarity. It turns out the vastly expanded social networks we've been exposed to with modern technology have left many feeling tremendously insecure about their status. They desperately want to be recognized - even by strangers who they'll never meet - as good and moral folks. So they'll support/condemn all sorts of things if it means social validation from the crowd.

It's actually very old. It's holier-than-thou, just draped in the modern clothes of secular ethics. It's pointing your finger at others and going "Look at these sinners. I'm so much better than these. Can't we just stone them?" Fore the record, I consider the boycoteers, for the most part, to be among them, just in a milder form.

Quote from: Omega;1077079More importantly I do not want to put money in the pockets of known crooks, creeps, and whatnod.

So you're saying you want known creeps to rob and brutally murder you because nobody wants to put money in their pocket, not even for honest work, so they have no other choice but turn to crime? Or do you just want other people to support their livelihood?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1077068I don't disagree; but I don't think as an author you can court your audience (as Zak did) and then protest that they don't like you.  He didn't HAVE to try to create a relationship; he thought it would help him.  It probably did until it didn't.  Assuming it didn't.  It's probably too soon to tell.  There are authors who I know nothing about - Zak made it a point of inserting himself into any discussion that touched on him or his activities.

Yeah, in a lot of cases the relationships between artists and the audience is a two-way street. Especially in today's creative climate where it's difficult to build an audience without courting these online 'communities.'

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1077081It's actually very old. It's holier-than-thou, just draped in the modern clothes of secular ethics. It's pointing your finger at others and going "Look at these sinners. I'm so much better than these. Can't we just stone them?" Fore the record, I consider the boycoteers, for the most part, to be among them, just in a milder form.

For sure it's an old impulse. But I do think social media has amplified it tremendously.

Quote from: Omega;1077079More importantly I do not want to put money in the pockets of known crooks, creeps, and whatnod. After they shuffle off the mortal coil? Thats a different issue. Hopefully.

"But that doesnt matter. All I want is my pwecious game!" is NOT an excuse. You are rewarding them by ignoring whatever it was they did. Or may still be doing.

I mean hey. That designer only slashed a kid with a knife, robbed a family, and stranded another kid. What does that matter when I really like that game! Here. Have some more money! And I had a person do EXACTLY this when informed of what had happened. And I've seen this in the art biz too.

I get your position. So, I'll ask you directly. John Lasseter makes money off of every dollar generated by any Disney or Pixar film. Even though he's temporarily stepped down, he still makes money off of them. Will you commit to never seeing a single Disney or Pixar movie, or buy a single Disney or Pixar related product, for the indefinite future until he dies? Or is this just reserved to games for you, and you're not willing to expand this to outside of gaming?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1077080Being a creep is not a crime (no matter how much the twatters want it to be), if it was, most of us in this very forum would be in jail (which by the way includes me.)

Speak for yourself, I'm actually quite normal! :p

Quote from: Omega;1077079More importantly I do not want to put money in the pockets of known crooks, creeps, and whatnod... You are rewarding them by ignoring whatever it was they did. Or may still be doing.

Or may not be doing. Or may never have done. One might wonder how you "know" these things.

Quote from: Omega;1077079More importantly I do not want to put money in the pockets of known crooks, creeps, and whatnod. After they shuffle off the mortal coil? Thats a different issue. Hopefully.

"But that doesnt matter. All I want is my pwecious game!" is NOT an excuse. You are rewarding them by ignoring whatever it was they did. Or may still be doing.

I mean hey. That designer only slashed a kid with a knife, robbed a family, and stranded another kid. What does that matter when I really like that game! Here. Have some more money! And I had a person do EXACTLY this when informed of what had happened. And I've seen this in the art biz too.

So what about the crooks that use false narratives about harassment? Do they get your money?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1077080So if 1000 people say the same lie it's suddenly the truth to you?  I dunno man, I have no idea who this Zak S. is and I don't really care, but unless he's convicted of a crime, slandering him is not fair and can get you litigated.

Being a creep is not a crime (no matter how much the twatters want it to be), if it was, most of us in this very forum would be in jail (which by the way includes me.)

If a thousand people witness a crime and testify to it, then that's an extremely strong case. And it's not slander as long as you're not intentionally making up lies - or passing on statements that you know are lies. And I'm still annoyed at people who keep using the term "hearsay" for eyewitness testimony around here. Eyewitness testimony isn't infallible, but it is the core of nearly all prosecutions.

Sure, being a creep isn't a crime - but conversely, not buying someone's book also isn't a crime. No one has an inherent right to my business or to be invited to my events. If I choose not to buy someone's book or not invite them to a party, I'm not violating their human rights.

The deal is - you're not required to buy some social-justice-themed LGBT superhero game. Conversely, social justice advocates aren't required to buy Zak's latest LotFP module. People buy what they want to. That's the core of free speech, free association, and free markets.

Quote from: jhkim;1077102If a thousand people witness a crime and testify to it, then that's an extremely strong case. And it's not slander as long as you're not intentionally making up lies - or passing on statements that you know are lies. And I'm still annoyed at people who keep using the term "hearsay" for eyewitness testimony around here. Eyewitness testimony isn't infallible, but it is the core of nearly all prosecutions.

Sure, being a creep isn't a crime - but conversely, not buying someone's book also isn't a crime. No one has an inherent right to my business or to be invited to my events. If I choose not to buy someone's book or not invite them to a party, I'm not violating their human rights.

The deal is - you're not required to buy some social-justice-themed LGBT superhero game. Conversely, social justice advocates aren't required to buy Zak's latest LotFP module. People buy what they want to. That's the core of free speech, free association, and free markets.

True, no one has to buy anything.

We're not the ones trying to make it so you CAN'T buy it though.

That is and always has been the difference.

Quote from: moonsweeper;1077006That's because a worship of legalism benefits the government and the people who make their living from it, so they indoctrinate people to believe it is infallible and beyond mere mortal (non-lawyer, non-government) comprehension.  Even though 95% of current law in the world is only there to keep the lower strata of people oppressed.  That's is why governments and the elite ignore it when it suits their purposes.

That being said, I don't believe shuddemell was considering it in the legal sense, I think he was hearkening back to the actual moral/philosophical principle that the 'innocent until proven guilty' legal concept was based on.  From a moral standpoint it is the only philosophical approach that actually leads to any sort of just, egalitarian society as opposed to tyrannical despotism.

Damn, ninja'd by the great worm himself...

Correct, I typically argue from principle not process.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1077106True, no one has to buy anything.

We're not the ones trying to make it so you CAN'T buy it though.

That is and always has been the difference.

He can always peddle his RPG from the back of a van behind the 7-11! /s

Quote from: jhkimThe deal is - you're not required to buy some social-justice-themed LGBT superhero game. Conversely, social justice advocates aren't required to buy Zak's latest LotFP module. People buy what they want to. That's the core of free speech, free association, and free markets.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1077106True, no one has to buy anything.

We're not the ones trying to make it so you CAN'T buy it though.

That is and always has been the difference.

Yeah, I prefer open markets. I would really prefer there to be a competitive market where there were online choices other than rpgnow. I don't feel like rpgnow should be required to stock everything or be fascists.

Did RPGPundit release Hillary's emails yet

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1077118He can always peddle his RPG from the back of a van behind the 7-11! /s

I remember buying more than a few books during all the SPF buzzing (he was accused of being creepy at conventions) and "will I be able to buy this in the future?" was a legitimate concern of mine.

Thankfully you can still buy all his stuff. But I do think corporations should start being responsible for upholding rights like Free speech here in America because they control so much of a person's life.

Like imagine if Twitter decided you sucked so your apartment won't renew your lease, no one hires you, and people stop letting you buy things because they don't want your dirty money. No government involved, but you now can't live outside of a prison or as an outdoors survivalist.

Quote from: Haffrung;1077063Personally, I think it's unhealthy for the audience to feel they have a personal relationship with creators. It can't have any good influence on the art itself, while the psychological needs fans are trying to satisfy would be better met through genuine two-way relationships with people who they interact with in meat-space: family, friends, co-workers, neighbours. Making creators a proxy for these relationships, and turning a hobby or art interest into a moral 'community', gives finger-wagging scolds and the insecure lonely greater scope to act out their pathologies on a lot of other people who just want to play a game or read a book.

On the other hand, this is used to the benefit of companies to keep 'early adopters' interested and therefore, providing the revenue to keep then going while they legitimize themselves to the market in general. Most companies I know that have done it try to keep the scope of the relationship as narrow as possible because of the muddying issues.

Quote from: HaffrungPersonally, I think it's unhealthy for the audience to feel they have a personal relationship with creators. It can't have any good influence on the art itself, while the psychological needs fans are trying to satisfy would be better met through genuine two-way relationships with people who they interact with in meat-space: family, friends, co-workers, neighbours. Making creators a proxy for these relationships, and turning a hobby or art interest into a moral 'community', gives finger-wagging scolds and the insecure lonely greater scope to act out their pathologies on a lot of other people who just want to play a game or read a book.

Quote from: Lynn;1077214On the other hand, this is used to the benefit of companies to keep 'early adopters' interested and therefore, providing the revenue to keep then going while they legitimize themselves to the market in general. Most companies I know that have done it try to keep the scope of the relationship as narrow as possible because of the muddying issues.

I disagree about Haffrung's basic point from first principles. I'm a big fan of personal connections. I like seeing local theater and local bands, which is a great alternative to seeing billion-dollar Hollywood movies or giant rock concerts. In gaming, I've played a lot of RPGs with the creators - and helped playtest and/or evangelize for cool games from people I know.

I don't think it's bad for people to follow and talk with creators in general. There are some bad trends in social media - like jumping very quickly for or against things and echo chambers - but particularly within a small niche, I think it's reasonable and positive to talk to creators.

Quote from: Mistwell;1077077I've long believed the art is not the artist, and one should separate the value of the art from the value of the artist.  When you start to purge art based on moral objections concerning the artist, I believe all of art is damaged by that purge.  But let's see if you really mean what you're saying?


Watched any movie attached to John Lasseter (Pixar) after he was accused? This means by the way you will never see any of these movies again until John Lasseter dies: Little Mermaid, Kiki's Delivery Service, Beauty and the Beast, Nightmare Before Christmas, Lion King, Toy Story (any), Bugs Life, Monsters Inc (any), Spirited Away, Finding Nemo (any), Incredibles (any), Howls' Moving Castle, Cars (any), Ratatouille, Wall-E, Up, Ponyo, Princes and the Frog, Winnie the Pooh, The Muppets, Brave, Big Hero 6, Wreck-It Ralph (any), Frozen (any), Inside Out, Zootopia, Moana, Coco, etc.

Watched any movie by Roman Polanski after he was accused in 1977?
James Franco?
Louis C.K.?
Richard Dreyfuss?
Dustin Hoffman?
Jeremy Piven?
Steven Seagal?
Tom Sizemore?
Kevin Spacey?
George Takei?
Harvey Weinsten?

I mean your position is understandable, but it's hardly universal. I look at that list, and I'm comfortable with my varying stances on the names on that list, but I'm guessing you don't agree, it should be all or nothing.

Me, I just think that makes me human.

What I am prepared to do is evolve, especially when presented with an argument that I have no good counter to. (I don't think you are making such of course).

For a start there is a difference (a spectrum maybe?) between not taking in somebody's art from a moral standpoint, and realising you no longer enjoy the artist's work as much as you did. There's people that boycott Tom Cruise for Scientology-related reasons (anti-psychiatric treatment or something), I've never considered doing that, even if I can accept that the outrage expressed from that corner is legitimate. I already pointed out that I have an issue with Kevin Spacey's portfolio now (until recently he was my favourite actor). Maybe I will do a complete boycott at some point, but I'm not there yet.

I'm not sure when John Lassetter was first accused, but his name wasn't really high on my mental list, until recently when Dame Helen Mirren came out hard. My issue is less with John Lassetter at that point, and more with Pixar. I'll have to give it some thought. Plus there's an argument for not punishing the many for the sins of the few, etc. If Pixar (continue to?) do the wrong thing, then sure maybe I will determine firmer action is required so that I can look at myself in the mirror.

I don't give myself brownie points or demerits, I just try to be honest.


I don't think your three monkeys approach works for hardly anyone. But if you can live with that, rewarding pretty terrible people who do (nominally) great art, fair enough. (Edit: that maybe sounds snarky, it's not intended to be).

Quote from: Rhedyn;1077167Thankfully you can still buy all his stuff. But I do think corporations should start being responsible for upholding rights like Free speech here in America because they control so much of a person's life.

No offense, but what you're suggesting, unless I misunderstand you, sounds like reintroducing feudalism from a different direction.

IMO what we need to do is prevent corporations from getting big enough to control so much of a person's life.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1077082So you're saying you want known creeps to rob and brutally murder you because nobody wants to put money in their pocket, not even for honest work, so they have no other choice but turn to crime? Or do you just want other people to support their livelihood?

You are insane. Seek medical help.

That kid the designer slashed with a knife? Still has the scar. The family he robbed? Never got their money back.

Honest work? What honest work?

Quote from: Mistwell;1077089I get your position. So, I'll ask you directly. John Lasseter makes money off of every dollar generated by any Disney or Pixar film. Even though he's temporarily stepped down, he still makes money off of them. Will you commit to never seeing a single Disney or Pixar movie, or buy a single Disney or Pixar related product, for the indefinite future until he dies? Or is this just reserved to games for you, and you're not willing to expand this to outside of gaming?

I dont know who Lasseter is or what he has been accused of? And I havent been to see a Disney movie since the late 90s and Not sure I've ever seen a Pixar movie? Was Cars a Pixar movie? Been a while.

But more to the point. Lasseter isnt the writer or designer of Disney or Pixar movies right? More like the Publisher would be for a RPG? If so then had I known he was up to no good while he was in office I'd have been leery of anything connected to him. Same as I am leery of anything connected to Steve Jackson anymore or FFG. I stopped buying White Wolf material after getting ripped off by them too. (I picked up d20 Gamma World and Racer Knights unaware at the time they were really WW products.)

For a long time I did not buy anything from WOTC due to how badly they treated FLGS back in the late 90s to early 00s.

Quote from: Zalman;1077097Or may not be doing. Or may never have done. One might wonder how you "know" these things.

Because they are the ones I've dealt with personally.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1077100So what about the crooks that use false narratives about harassment? Do they get your money?

How would I know they were using false narrative till after the fact? If ever? What sort of argument are you making? We don't have psychic mind powers to tell someones being honest or not. Hence my point earlier about the fact we have to look at both sides and try to sort it out.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1077118He can always peddle his RPG from the back of a van behind the 7-11! /s

Been there. Bought that. Still have a copy of Ground Assault Gamma Force and the minis which were little Gundam grabber machine snap models. :cool:

Back on topic.

Pundit.

Have you tried contacting WOTC to ask them about the consultant credits for yourself and the rest in future print runs?

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1076931As a German who has kinda lived on the frontlines to communism from a global perspective, I happen to recognize this thinking. What I am hearing here is the literal ideology of the now defunct East German GDR.
Gentle reminder: the Berlin wall was build in the name of fighting fascism ("antifaschistischer Schutzwall"). Keeping out Nazis. (Not entrapping citizens who want to emigrate to a functioning economy, no.) Countless crimes against humanity have been perpetrated in the name of fighting an imagined (or rather: asserted) fascism from 1949 onwards.

It's funny how Mankind only has learned lessons from the first half of the 20th century. But NO lesson from the 2nd half of the 20th century whatsoever.
And when I say it's funny, I mean it's disgusting.

A point well worth remembering.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1076957Perhaps. But is his writing any good? I don't actually care about anything else, as I don't know anybody involved personally.

It's highly uneven, excessively pretentious and tending toward gimmicky, though not without a few redeeming features. But it's way over-hyped; there's lots of much more consistently good OSR writers out there.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1077345It's highly uneven, excessively pretentious and tending toward gimmicky, though not without a few redeeming features. But it's way over-hyped;

Sounds like it's the posterchild for the 2010s in gaming then.

Quote from: Omega;1077254Back on topic.

Pundit.

Have you tried contacting WOTC to ask them about the consultant credits for yourself and the rest in future print runs?

I don't think I'm required to.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1076920Better safe than sorry. We can't take risks when the potential for literal Nazis creeping into our communities is real. There may be casualties, but it's necessary.

You understand what the words "literal" and "Nazi" mean, right?

Quote from: CRKrueger;1077418You understand what the words "literal" and "Nazi" mean, right?

I feel slightly sad I appeared to be the only one to whom it seemed obvious that SK was being sarcastic.

Quote from: S'mon;1077426I feel slightly sad I appeared to be the only one to whom it seemed obvious that SK was being sarcastic.

D'oh!  Well, considering probably 50% of the authors in the DTRPG Top 20 would have said the exact same thing, I excuse myself for taking it straight. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;1077473D'oh!  Well, considering probably 50% of the authors in the DTRPG Top 20 would have said the exact same thing, I excuse myself for taking it straight. :D

Yeah, the reason I felt sad was not a lament at the stupidity of my fellow rpgsiters, but rather that it seemed credible his post could have been un-ironic. O Tempora O Mores.

Quote from: Omega;1077247I dont know who Lasseter is or what he has been accused of? And I havent been to see a Disney movie since the late 90s and Not sure I've ever seen a Pixar movie? Was Cars a Pixar movie? Been a while.

But more to the point. Lasseter isnt the writer or designer of Disney or Pixar movies right? More like the Publisher would be for a RPG? If so then had I known he was up to no good while he was in office I'd have been leery of anything connected to him. Same as I am leery of anything connected to Steve Jackson anymore or FFG. I stopped buying White Wolf material after getting ripped off by them too. (I picked up d20 Gamma World and Racer Knights unaware at the time they were really WW products.)

For a long time I did not buy anything from WOTC due to how badly they treated FLGS back in the late 90s to early 00s.

John Lasseter was an art director and was accused of sexual impropriety (He apparently was very touchy, which made people uncomfortable, but nothing worse than unsolicited hugs supposedly) and recently phased out of Disney to work at SkyDance Animation.  Who, SkyDance, has been losing employees because of an accusation that has some how morphed into a savage crime that is apparently unable to be litigated as no one has brought up charges on him.

The same thing seems to be occurring to this Zak S. fellow.  Word of mouth is now a worse career and life destroyer than law ever was.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1077348I don't think I'm required to.

That in absolutely no way means you should not look into it. It may or may not involve you, and the other consultants who had nothing to do with Zak's problems.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1077345[his writing is]...excessively pretentious and tending toward gimmicky, though not without a few redeeming features. But it's way over-hyped...

That sums it up, IMO. You know, it makes me think of my opinion on China Mieville's writing. A lot of people like Mieville's writing, but I find it insufferably pretentious and self-aware of its "artistry." You constantly see the author at work, trying to produce art. I find that whenever I see the "writer at work" in the writing (and especially in fiction), it's distracting and detracting. Good writing doesn't do that to the reader, in my opinion.

Anyway, could just be me, but maybe if you're a Mieville fan, you'll also like Zak's stuff?

I think perhaps Gygax is equally guilty.

Quote from: Gary Gygax, the Samarkand Solution, first random page I turned toThere was a clash of metal; the assailant cursed in a guttural voice and flung a handful of granules out in a shower.  The stuff flew outward, burst into incandescent meteors, then shrieked as if each were a tiny, tortured imp.  The bright fury of their blaze lasted only a split second, the shrieking but a bit longer, and thereafter only a reeking smoke remained.  Each particle had generated a dense little cloud of suffocating vapor, and the whole area was now filled with the stuff.

Technically, that carried over into the following page, but I certainly think it is indicative of what some have referred to as 'flowery prose'.

Was someone praising Gygax as a novelist?  Where?  I can't remember ever seeing that before.  

The groggiest of grogs freely admits reading EGG novels to glean game info but not for appreciation per se.  That's like replying to a post saying "I think fire is hot".  Nobody's pulling for the opposite opinion.

Quote from: EOTB;1077645Was someone praising Gygax as a novelist?  Where?  I can't remember ever seeing that before.  

The groggiest of grogs freely admits reading EGG novels to glean game info but not for appreciation per se.  That's like replying to a post saying "I think fire is hot".  Nobody's pulling for the opposite opinion.

Ive heard a few speak well of Gary's Gord series. I had the first one but for some reason the content put me off it and never got too far in. His non-fiction books though are not too bad really.

Quote from: Omega;1077655Ive heard a few speak well of Gary's Gord series. I had the first one but for some reason the content put me off it and never got too far in. His non-fiction books though are not too bad really.

I think the writing in the two TSR Gord books is not too bad. Maybe he had a good editor then. He seems to get consistently worse over time. The later Gord books are pretty bad and the Egyptian detective stuff I find unreadable.

Can't say I was very impressed with Gary's fiction. I find it interesting for the gaming connections, but I doubt I would've read it if it weren't for that. (It probably doesn't help that I read it as an adult. If I'd read it back in junior high, like I did with Moorcock, Burroughs, etc., I might have had a higher regard for it.) I actually like Gary's non-fiction/gaming writing, in general (although I think some of it needed more editing).

FWIW, my all time favorite author is Gene Wolfe. So I'm not averse to dense/rich prose. It just needs to be well done (in my opinion, of course).

I have enjoyed several of Gygax's novels, including the Egyptian mythos detective stories.  

I think that most books have a unique authorial tone; whether it is off-putting tends to be as much based on reader mood as any other factor.  Pretentious isn't automatically a deal-breaker for me.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1077638That sums it up, IMO. You know, it makes me think of my opinion on China Mieville's writing. A lot of people like Mieville's writing, but I find it insufferably pretentious and self-aware of its "artistry." You constantly see the author at work, trying to produce art. I find that whenever I see the "writer at work" in the writing (and especially in fiction), it's distracting and detracting. Good writing doesn't do that to the reader, in my opinion.

Refreshing to see someone else who shares my opinion of Miéville. I really don't know how anyone tolerates reading stuff like that.

Quote from: Zalman;1077742Refreshing to see someone else who shares my opinion of Miéville. I really don't know how anyone tolerates reading stuff like that.

I have the same opinion. Mieville is trash.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1078007I have the same opinion. Mieville is trash.

There was a time where DC Comics actually let Mieville write comics. And the result was exactly how you would think it would be. Pretty much the same result you get from anyone who writes for their trash Vertigo line. Pretentious pablum pretending it has real artistic merit or public appeal.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1077667Can't say I was very impressed with Gary's fiction. I find it interesting for the gaming connections, but I doubt I would've read it if it weren't for that. (It probably doesn't help that I read it as an adult. If I'd read it back in junior high, like I did with Moorcock, Burroughs, etc., I might have had a higher regard for it.) I actually like Gary's non-fiction/gaming writing, in general (although I think some of it needed more editing).

FWIW, my all time favorite author is Gene Wolfe. So I'm not averse to dense/rich prose. It just needs to be well done (in my opinion, of course).

When Gary wrote fiction I think his shorter works were better.  Or at least, serialized works.  It hurts my heart that we'll never have a truly complete version of The Gnome Cache, for example.

Did I think Gary was a good novelist writer?  No.  I liked the characters though and the plot lines via Tharizdun and the Cat Lord were good glimpses into Gary's mind about Greyhawk as a setting.  If you're running Greyhawk, worth the read.

I did like how the combat and action scenes felt at home within a D&D world.  Too many writers ignore the setting and have their characters do things that don't correspond to what characters can do.

Mieville is like a plate of food that is Ok in taste. It feeds you and nothing more.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1078111There was a time where DC Comics actually let Mieville write comics. And the result was exactly how you would think it would be. Pretty much the same result you get from anyone who writes for their trash Vertigo line. Pretentious pablum pretending it has real artistic merit or public appeal.

They probably saw him and thought they had Grant Morrison's doppleganger.

Alas...

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1077667Can't say I was very impressed with Gary's fiction. I find it interesting for the gaming connections, but I doubt I would've read it if it weren't for that. (It probably doesn't help that I read it as an adult. If I'd read it back in junior high, like I did with Moorcock, Burroughs, etc., I might have had a higher regard for it.) I actually like Gary's non-fiction/gaming writing, in general (although I think some of it needed more editing).

FWIW, my all time favorite author is Gene Wolfe. So I'm not averse to dense/rich prose. It just needs to be well done (in my opinion, of course).

I tried, I found Gygax nigh unreadable.

And Wolfe is ridiculously good, they'll be studying that guy a century from now.

Yeah, I found Gygax's fiction pretty awful.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1077418You understand what the words "literal" and "Nazi" mean, right?

They are quite fine with literal communists though. :rolleyes:

Quote from: RPGPundit;1079780Yeah, I found Gygax's fiction pretty awful.

His books are still better than Ed Greenwood's.

Quote from: mhensley;1079790They are quite fine with literal communists though. :rolleyes:

  There is something curious going on in the new Worlds United sourcebook for Mythras. According to the preview, the USSR is one of the big villains, but apparently Stalin turned it from communism to a "hyper-capitalist plutocracy."

Quote from: mhensley;1079791His books are still better than Ed Greenwood's.

What, you don't like Big Ed's pervy porn fantasies?

Quote from: Doom;1078697And Wolfe is ridiculously good, they'll be studying that guy a century from now.

Which Gene Wolfe books do (any of) you recommend?

Quote from: mhensley;1079791His books are still better than Ed Greenwood's.

Maybe? I have to say, Greenwood was a better world-builder.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1079878Which Gene Wolfe books do (any of) you recommend?

The Book of the New Sun is his "LOTR", as it were. But my favorite is Soldier of the Mist and its sequels.

I quite enjoyed the Gord the Rogue novels in my youth.

Quote from: kythri;1079823What, you don't like Big Ed's pervy porn fantasies?

I think I would respected him more if he just wrote actual porn.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1080033I think I would respected him more if he just wrote actual porn.

Elminster just showed up with a pizza and Mystra has no gold to pay him...

Quote from: HappyDaze;1080037Elminster just showed up with a pizza and Mystra has no gold to pay him...

Pretty sure that happened in chapter 11. :D

Elminster: The Making of a Mage is awesome. I know it's a cliche to say so but that book really is so bad it's good. I laughed out loud many times when reading it. 5/5 would read again.

Sadly the rest of the series is just awful, even if the books are full of chicks with malfunctioning wardrobes.

My take on the whole Zak S thing is, he is a weirdo, and always has been.
Not that there is anything wrong with being a weirdo, but Zak is a special level.
Case in point, my first exposure to Zak was an episode of Attack of the Show, back when it was on. One of the regulars of the show would go to the Adult Video Expo in Vagas, and one of the things he did there was show a DVD extra from a movie that Zak and his, at the time, girlfriend Mandy Morbid, Hospital!
Apparently during the filming of the video, (which is set in an old time abandoned asylum) the two of them learned about tripanning, which if you don't know, is the practice of drilling a hole in the patient's skull to 'release the evil spirits that cause madness'.
(Some of you may see where this is going)
Zak and Mandy, being into the body modification scene, exclaimed in the DVD extra that this sounded interesting so they were going to try it. They had a Black and Decker drill...  and a watermelon. They, wisely, decided that they were going to test how this was going to work out on the watermelon before either of them got a cordless drill to the head.
The watermelon, as you might imagine, exploded, and unleashed its sticky contents all over the two of them, the drill, and he patio they were filming on.  They both expressed disappointment in the failure of the test.

So, anytime I read anything from either of the 2, I take it with a grain of salt, and think, "do I really want to take the word of someone who wanted to use an off the shelf cordless drill to drill a hole in their skull at face value?"
I advise doing the same.

Quote from: remial;1082306So, anytime I read anything from either of the 2, I take it with a grain of salt, and think, "do I really want to take the word of someone who wanted to use an off the shelf cordless drill to drill a hole in their skull at face value?"
I advise doing the same.

Too bad this forum doesn't have a Like function.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;1082534Too bad this forum doesn't have a Like function.

JG

It used to have such a feature, but too many people bitched about like the losers they are.  Mainly because they got down voted.

Quote from: Zalman;1079960The Book of the New Sun is his "LOTR", as it were. But my favorite is Soldier of the Mist and its sequels.

Excellent! Thank you!

Quote from: Morblot;1080750Elminster: The Making of a Mage is awesome. I know it's a cliche to say so but that book really is so bad it's good. I laughed out loud many times when reading it. 5/5 would read again.

Sadly the rest of the series is just awful, even if the books are full of chicks with malfunctioning wardrobes.

He also tried his hand at writing a novel for Pathfinder. Not the worsr fantasy ever yet close imo. The mary and gary stu trademark main characters being able to do everything just ruins the novel.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1082538It used to have such a feature, but too many people bitched about like the losers they are.  Mainly because they got down voted.

If I recall, the main issue was that the upvotes and downvotes were all anonymous. If you can't see a list of names of the people doing it, its hard to know what to think of it. And from the other side, upvotes are a way to register my approval. Why bother upvoting something if nobody knows I did it?

I do actually think downvotes are a bad idea. Upvotes make sense because you can agree with someone without needed to clutter a thread with "ditto" posts. But if you disagree with someone, that should take the form of actual discussion. Make a post and say why you disagree, or at least upvote a post someone already made stating the reason you disagree.

Also, that Zak and Mandy story is hilarious. If that clip exists, it needs to be on Youtube.

Quote from: remial;1082306My take on the whole Zak S thing is, he is a weirdo, and always has been.
Not that there is anything wrong with being a weirdo, but Zak is a special level.
Case in point, my first exposure to Zak was an episode of Attack of the Show, back when it was on. One of the regulars of the show would go to the Adult Video Expo in Vagas, and one of the things he did there was show a DVD extra from a movie that Zak and his, at the time, girlfriend Mandy Morbid, Hospital!
Apparently during the filming of the video, (which is set in an old time abandoned asylum) the two of them learned about tripanning, which if you don't know, is the practice of drilling a hole in the patient's skull to 'release the evil spirits that cause madness'.
(Some of you may see where this is going)
Zak and Mandy, being into the body modification scene, exclaimed in the DVD extra that this sounded interesting so they were going to try it. They had a Black and Decker drill...  and a watermelon. They, wisely, decided that they were going to test how this was going to work out on the watermelon before either of them got a cordless drill to the head.
The watermelon, as you might imagine, exploded, and unleashed its sticky contents all over the two of them, the drill, and he patio they were filming on.  They both expressed disappointment in the failure of the test.

So, anytime I read anything from either of the 2, I take it with a grain of salt, and think, "do I really want to take the word of someone who wanted to use an off the shelf cordless drill to drill a hole in their skull at face value?"
I advise doing the same.

Does this video legally exist anywhere??

Quote from: RPGPundit;1082592Does this video legally exist anywhere??

Starting at $2.48 on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Hospital-Vivid-Alt/dp/B001BDYDKI

From the back cover:

DVD Extras:  Mandy Morbid's Trepanation Video

Quote from: kythri;1082639Starting at $2.48 on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Hospital-Vivid-Alt/dp/B001BDYDKI

From the back cover:

DVD Extras:  Mandy Morbid's Trepanation Video

WTF?

Quote from: kythri;1082639Starting at $2.48 on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Hospital-Vivid-Alt/dp/B001BDYDKI

From the back cover:

DVD Extras:  Mandy Morbid's Trepanation Video

And it's out of stock. What a relief.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1082643And it's out of stock. What a relief.

from what I remember seeing of it, the movie isn't that good. a naked Mandy wanders around a deserted mental hospital, and has random sex with people who may or may not be there.  Lots of piercings, tattoos and mohawks if that is your thing.
and the trepanation video is only like 5 minutes or so.

Quote from: kythri;1082639Starting at $2.48 on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Hospital-Vivid-Alt/dp/B001BDYDKI

From the back cover:

DVD Extras:  Mandy Morbid's Trepanation Video

This wouldn't be the most pornographic thing I've seen advertised on Amazon.

jg

It's a real mystery how these people all turned out to be damaged people in damaged relationships, huh?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1082896It's a real mystery how these people all turned out to be damaged people in damaged relationships, huh?

hey, 11 years together for porn stars is practically 100 years for civilians

Quote from: remial;1082962hey, 11 years together for porn stars is practically 100 years for civilians

It's not the years, honey. It's the mileage.