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Author Topic: Just How WEIRD is D&D?  (Read 6937 times)

Wrath of God

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2022, 01:22:07 PM »
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And worse, to try and make their setting feel less like a Tolkein rip-off, they decide to radically reinterpret the race in some fashion; ex. cannibal halflings of Dark Sun.

I must say personally I kinda like twisting various races by trying to shoehorn them to new weird settings.
It not always work - but I think halflings of Dark Sun, devilish gnomes of Midgard or elves and orcs of Eberron were all fine.

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Demonic incursions are not a typical thing in most fantasy worlds. They can be a thing, but not frequently enough to say that demon-human hybrids are this common thing typically encountered in fantasy world. If anything they're more of a horror trope.

Massive horde from other dimnesion, whatever horde it is is definitely epic/dark fantasy trope, not horror one. It's way too big for horror.


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Armchair Gamer

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2022, 01:49:01 PM »
"[Older D&D] discusses what a sane man will do in a mad world. The [D&D] of to-day discusses what an essential lunatic will do in a dull world."--with apologies to G.K. Chesterton.

:D ;)

Lynn

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2022, 02:02:40 PM »
Yeah, I think this is certainly part of it, perhaps in hand with the Planescape stuff people referenced earlier.  From the 90s in particular the early exposure to Anime and other aspects of genericized Japanese/global cultures, not to mention the proliferation of RPGs that aren't D&D and are influenced by other cultures/mythologies has created a new pop culture soup that the younger generation draws from and this has made its way into D&D.  It's pretty interesting to hear my college students getting into Anime lore and connecting it to 5e yet not having the slightest clue that the ogre mage of 1e is really an oni. And most have never read the major Appendix N authors with the possible exceptions of Tolkien or Lovecraft, though even in those cases it's more likely they know them from movies or other cultural mediums.  So I think the pop culture milieu of teens is just a lot different than it was for us back in the 1970s.

I think so, though much of what drew us 'earlier generations' in wasn't simply a matter of pop culture - meaning, actual popular culture.

I think one of the greatest influences was the popularizing of video games. The 'parlors' that once had only pinball started having SF & fantasy troped arcade games, and that led to home video games growing out of the province of 'nerds' and into the mainstream. D&D stayed in its nerd niche until people put together that the fun they experienced in other mediums (the return of fantasy movies, Super Nintendo, etc) were similar to what the D&D nerds were doing. Anime was also creeping in the back door via early video rental and into RPGs through some 'cons. For example, I saw The Castle of Cagliostro without subtitles first I believe at the 1980 DunDraCon.
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Abraxus

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2022, 02:18:54 PM »
Well it is pretty easy at least in 3.5 and after to make a poor character either by choice or design.

I rather have everyone contribute equally at the table. Not be a burden for the rest of the party.

Case in point a player decided to play a purely ranged character as a Sorcerer. He was blinded by either the damage values or Critical Range  of a Heavy Crossbow. Given he had was it a 12 Dex he kept missing and wasting a full round reloading his crossbow. While also wondering why he kept missing the enemy kept targeting him and did I mention he loaded up on True Strike and no other spells.

Now it is understandable if it is a new player as they do not know much system mastery. If it’s a veteran who should know better you make a shitty  character your personal responsibility. Myself and others are under no responsibility as players to suffer such characters.

Now it is easier to avoid in RPGs who’s attributes are decoupled from everything else. Sure you can play a Fighter with 8 star just don’t expect to wear and carry much or do as much damage a CB player who takes a higher strength.
Hence why if your character options are extremely broad, your game should include retraining rules.

We had a guy similar to that who took NOTHING but attack spells as a sorcerer. Now, granted, you're going to have fewer spells overall (as opposed to more spells per day) as a 3E sorc, but until you get up in levels you're still casting one spell a round. He also, for some reason, wanted to specialize in whips.

No, I don't know either.

Funniest thing I've seen was him charging into a room and getting bitchslapped by a flesh golem, then instead of running like a scalded cat for the back of the formation, he tries to engage the golem in melee. With his whip.


Let me guess like the player in my game your Lash Larue would get offended if you told him to play differently or question his choice. Then wonder why the Flesh Golem nearly sent him to negative hit points.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2022, 02:26:57 PM »
Well it is pretty easy at least in 3.5 and after to make a poor character either by choice or design.

I rather have everyone contribute equally at the table. Not be a burden for the rest of the party.

Case in point a player decided to play a purely ranged character as a Sorcerer. He was blinded by either the damage values or Critical Range  of a Heavy Crossbow. Given he had was it a 12 Dex he kept missing and wasting a full round reloading his crossbow. While also wondering why he kept missing the enemy kept targeting him and did I mention he loaded up on True Strike and no other spells.

Now it is understandable if it is a new player as they do not know much system mastery. If it’s a veteran who should know better you make a shitty  character your personal responsibility. Myself and others are under no responsibility as players to suffer such characters.

Now it is easier to avoid in RPGs who’s attributes are decoupled from everything else. Sure you can play a Fighter with 8 star just don’t expect to wear and carry much or do as much damage a CB player who takes a higher strength.
Hence why if your character options are extremely broad, your game should include retraining rules.

We had a guy similar to that who took NOTHING but attack spells as a sorcerer. Now, granted, you're going to have fewer spells overall (as opposed to more spells per day) as a 3E sorc, but until you get up in levels you're still casting one spell a round. He also, for some reason, wanted to specialize in whips.

No, I don't know either.

Funniest thing I've seen was him charging into a room and getting bitchslapped by a flesh golem, then instead of running like a scalded cat for the back of the formation, he tries to engage the golem in melee. With his whip.


Let me guess like the player in my game your Lash Larue would get offended if you told him to play differently or question his choice. Then wonder why the Flesh Golem nearly sent him to negative hit points.
Ding ding ding. He literally didn't seem to grasp why it would be a good idea to take defensive spells... or utility... or buffs/debuffs... he was almost like a walking example of how not to build and play a sorcerer.

The flesh golem DID incapacitate him, before we could ride to the rescue. Our rogue was seriously contemplating an 'accidental' miss with her bow and finishing him off. I couldn't blame her in the slightest.

horsesoldier

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2022, 02:57:20 PM »
One of the observations I have about 5e, which has been talked about at LEAST since 3e, but possibly earlier is the freakshow factor of D&D. Snowflake races/classes always existed, and it's a tried-and-true baby GM right of passage to learn how to reject such characters at the table.

But now? 5e games I see online, generally resemble *nothing* of what I run. Tieflings, Aasimar, and other non-contextual or setting specific weird shit all mished mashed up and running around with Warlocks and Paladins whee!

Obviously not all games are like that, but there certainly seems to be... "more" of the freakshow. So this gets me to eyeballing people of my vintage that play in the OSR...

Do others look at D&D as being as weird? I spent decades running Spelljammer - so weird shit is par for the course for me, but context is context - Spelljammer (and Planescape) is SUPPOSED to be weird. Are their OSR games that do contextually weird stuff? And if 5e collapsed - could the OSR reclaim these young players that play this way?

As to teaching these youngins the right way, I don't think so, not without a cultural backstop reinforcing it. A LGS has a good number of people unironically running Strixhaven. Freakshow parties tend to be the norm from what I'm seeing.

Abraxus

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2022, 03:40:46 PM »
@Ghostmaker

Almost exactly like my player.

Pissy and passive aggressive yet it never was his fault.

And if the Rogue “ accidentally “ shot the arrow at your player he would have deserved it.

Sorcerer with no armour trying to charge the fantasy version of Frankenstein with a whip. Yeah that was going to end well.


It was almost comical with our Sorcerer get a go hit with True strike. Spend a full round loading his heavy crossbow then acting in shock when magic missiles would slam into his character or the enemy would walk up to him. 

Chris24601

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2022, 04:12:18 PM »
Sorcerer with no armour trying to charge the fantasy version of Frankenstein with a whip. Yeah that was going to end well.
Golems were one of the primary reasons that my 3.5e Rogue had an Adamantine Construct-bane short sword commissioned. He named it Dosenöffner (German for “can opener”). He didn’t need to use it often, but it made a world of difference when those things showed up.

Golems are also why every 3.5e spontaneous caster should aim to have at least one “Spell Resistance: No” damaging spell in their arsenal (they’re usually conjurations that summon up something that then deals damage) and why all spell casters should consider carrying a few scrolls with such spells on them.

tenbones

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2022, 04:23:56 PM »
@Ghostmaker

Almost exactly like my player.

Pissy and passive aggressive yet it never was his fault.

And if the Rogue “ accidentally “ shot the arrow at your player he would have deserved it.

Sorcerer with no armour trying to charge the fantasy version of Frankenstein with a whip. Yeah that was going to end well.


It was almost comical with our Sorcerer get a go hit with True strike. Spend a full round loading his heavy crossbow then acting in shock when magic missiles would slam into his character or the enemy would walk up to him.

That's funny because I'm running Savage Pathfinder, and I had a player make a Dwarven Dragon-Blooded Sorcerer, straight up melee-killer. He doesn't wear armor, of course, but because it's Savage Worlds it totally works because there is Defense based on fighting skill. It totally works. He ended up going with a classic Human Cleric of Lathander, tho, since the party needed a healer (not really - but he's coming from D&D where the DPS/Healing/Tank trinity lives large in the player's minds).

As an aside, I'm wondering where the freakshow ends? Does the OSR start mutating and adding in all the weird shit? Or does it happen organically with OSR Spelljammer/Planescape as the Plague Ships that bring the freaks to other tents?

jeff37923

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2022, 05:08:12 PM »

As an aside, I'm wondering where the freakshow ends? Does the OSR start mutating and adding in all the weird shit? Or does it happen organically with OSR Spelljammer/Planescape as the Plague Ships that bring the freaks to other tents?

It will go in cycles. When anything goes (like 5e now), there is nothing to mark a specific as unique because everyone is unique. Once the character race choice is no longer special, then it will change to how that character race choice can be played - which will make the character unique.
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Jaeger

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2022, 05:18:27 PM »
...
Still, there are pros and cons of including the entire kitchen sink right in the core books. While in the surface it might make sense from a strictly universal game system PoV (which D&D quite isn't), it can also overwhelm players with too many options that might not even exist in whatever campaign they're playing and fill their heads with ideas. Some of those races might not even work that way in settings that do have them, cuz fantasy races of the same type can vary so much by setting. They work mostly as GM tools that players don't need to know about, and when they do, they tend to complain when GMs either don't allow them, or handle them a different way than the "official" holy writ of the core rules.
...


TSR, and now especially WotC have always been very coy about D&D being a 'universal' game.

D&D is very much its own fantasy genre, but it has always presented itself as 'generic fantasy'.  It's market leader position and subsequent influence on fantasy that came after it have allowed the IP holders to do so.

But as WotC has gotten the current fanbase to see D&D as a 'universal' game with their D&D 'multiverse' push, in order to have their cake and eat it too, it has made for some curious effects.

Lots of the current generation of gamers WotC has chosen to service are very much about - if it is official WotC D&D - it should be allowed.

And they cry loud and hard if it is not. Discussion on other forums and twitter are rife with "If you don't allow my half tabaxi tiefling Bard, you are a bad GM / lack creativity.."

Making "D&D your own" is what Grognards who don't want to game with a PC menagerie are told to make them shut up and bugger off to their home game so that everyone else can enjoy official WotC D&D without criticism.
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Dropbear

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2022, 07:17:41 PM »

Lots of the current generation of gamers WotC has chosen to service are very much about - if it is official WotC D&D - it should be allowed.

And they cry loud and hard if it is not. Discussion on other forums and twitter are rife with "If you don't allow my half tabaxi tiefling Bard, you are a bad GM / lack creativity.."

Making "D&D your own" is what Grognards who don't want to game with a PC menagerie are told to make them shut up and bugger off to their home game so that everyone else can enjoy official WotC D&D without criticism.

What’s really amusing is when you as GM point out that multiclassing and feats are optional, and not core rules, to a table of die-hard WotC devotees, and that they won’t be used. Scream, cry, holler. Likewise, with variant humans.

The newer players devoted to WotC D&D 5th Edition want all of the rules options to be open for them to use. But only if they are player-facing, I have discovered.

Implement all of these in a game when “devotees” demand access to feats and multiclassing even when you’ve mentioned you don’t want to use optional rules in your game some time, and see what happens for you.

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It’s the same results for me, every time. Scream and cry and holler how unfair it is, and it’s not how the rules work even when I quote DMG pages, then ragequit.


Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2022, 07:54:10 PM »
While I dislike 5e (way more then most people here actually).....Just buckle down and just communicate with your players. That your not a organic computer and the experience needs to be fun to you too.

'Players want to be overpowered and use exploits! [Game I dislike] is exclusively at fault for a universal game trend! And sports on page 12!'

Freakshit is REALLY not new. I wouldn't even say its more egregious now.

jmarso

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2022, 08:50:01 PM »

It’s the same results for me, every time. Scream and cry and holler how unfair it is, and it’s not how the rules work even when I quote DMG pages, then ragequit.

Sounds like a great way to vet potential players and rid yourself of the snowflakes. Of course, these days it may take some effort to put a good table of players together.  ;D
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Opaopajr

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Re: Just How WEIRD is D&D?
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2022, 12:51:45 AM »
"[Older D&D] discusses what a sane man will do in a mad world. The [D&D] of to-day discusses what an essential lunatic will do in a dull world."--with apologies to G.K. Chesterton.

:D ;)

 ;D That is surprisingly on point. What to do when you are not grounded inside? Bring the mundane into the fantastic: shopping, prom, slice of life... It is almost like a cry for stability.  :( Aww, now I just made myself sad with pop-psychology, empathizing that these are confused, scared people. I am probably wrong and carried the metaphor too far.  :-[
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