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Author Topic: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?  (Read 3270 times)

jhkim

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2022, 03:01:35 PM »
All the existing OGL 1.0 material is still legal, and people can continue to develop and release stuff under the OGL 1.0.

One thing I've wondered for years is why doesn't WotC put an expiration date on the OGL? It would have been a pretty trivial addition. And I don't think anyone in 2001 would have cared if the OGL expired on Jan 1, 2015. Most of the 3e-compatible companies had already gone out of business by then.
Because Ryan Dancy wanted to be sure there would never again be a situation like the waning days of TSR where the availability of D&D could be threatened by an owner just sitting on the IP.

Every headache WotC has had in trying to monopolize D&D comes down to Dancy’s deliberate efforts to ensure they couldn’t actually do so and sliding it in basically under their noses.

I’m certain Dancy’s name is a curse word in the halls of WotC/Hasbro.

I don't interpret Ryan Dancey as being a humanitarian trying to undermine the business. I think he genuinely felt that the OGL would be a financial boon to WotC, just as many software companies have benefited from open-source software. And I still think it might be true.

The idea was that it would undermine other rival RPGs. By making publishing for D&D easy, it would get a ton of people focused on publishing D&D-compatible material that would make the brand stronger. Third party companies would create the riskier and lower-margin products like adventures, settings, and alternate genres. But that material being available would make DMs and player happier and boost play. And WotC would reap the benefit of sales for their core product.

A key requirement for the OGL v1.0 is hidden in paragraph 7. It is that by using the OGL, you agree not to use anyone else's trademarks. But legally, it is acceptable to use other company's trademarks in a non-deceptive manner. So I can market a charging cord that works with Apple iPhone, and say that on the package. This keeps OGL development in silos that can't indicate compatibility with another trademark.

At the time in 1999, WotC felt that the threat wasn't other D&D compatible systems. Based on prior history, they thought the threat was newer games like World of Darkness, GURPS, and possibly other games that would come after. Because of their market lead and brand recognition, they thought that other D&D-like games were not a threat. The mess with Pathfinder came because they handled 4E and Dragon magazine very badly, rather than being an inherent problem with the OGL.


Today, D&D has even more of a stranglehold on RPGs as a whole than ever. And I think that's thanks to the OGL 1.0. Even now, I don't think WotC considers the OSR or any other tabletop RPG systems to be their main threat. Their main enemy is video games and other entertainment.

Jaeger

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2022, 03:23:00 PM »
I don't interpret Ryan Dancey as being a humanitarian trying to undermine the business. I think he genuinely felt that the OGL would be a financial boon to WotC, just as many software companies have benefited from open-source software. And I still think it might be true.

The idea was that it would undermine other rival RPGs. By making publishing for D&D easy, it would get a ton of people focused on publishing D&D-compatible material that would make the brand stronger. Third party companies would create the riskier and lower-margin products like adventures, settings, and alternate genres. But that material being available would make DMs and player happier and boost play. And WotC would reap the benefit of sales for their core product.

A key requirement for the OGL v1.0 is hidden in paragraph 7. It is that by using the OGL, you agree not to use anyone else's trademarks. But legally, it is acceptable to use other company's trademarks in a non-deceptive manner. So I can market a charging cord that works with Apple iPhone, and say that on the package. This keeps OGL development in silos that can't indicate compatibility with another trademark.

At the time in 1999, WotC felt that the threat wasn't other D&D compatible systems. Based on prior history, they thought the threat was newer games like World of Darkness, GURPS, and possibly other games that would come after. Because of their market lead and brand recognition, they thought that other D&D-like games were not a threat. The mess with Pathfinder came because they handled 4E and Dragon magazine very badly, rather than being an inherent problem with the OGL.


Today, D&D has even more of a stranglehold on RPGs as a whole than ever. And I think that's thanks to the OGL 1.0. Even now, I don't think WotC considers the OSR or any other tabletop RPG systems to be their main threat. Their main enemy is video games and other entertainment.


Complete agreement.

Dancy has said in interviews that "Different gaming systems divide gaming groups." - The intention of the OGL was always to bring settings, and alternate genres under the D&D/d20 umbrella; keeping gamers within the WotC/D&D sphere of influence.

In my opinion; When WotC even half gets it right, the OGL serves to drive the RPG industry to supporting D&D in some fashion. Just look at the number of games/settings that have gotten the "5e Treatment" in recent years.
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Eric Diaz

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2022, 04:46:40 PM »
My 2c.

"Let's see what happens", IMO, is a perfect recipe to being unable to do anything later. And there is little I can do except complain - but I think the time to complain is now.

The 750k threshold is enough to hurt some successful Kickstarter and companies that make better products than WoTC, like Kobold Press, IMO. I am an "average person" in this regard and this might affect me.

Also, consider inflation. It might become a bigger problem sooner than we think.

Someone else mentioned a 50k limit but I can't find the source. Many creators could raise more than that with a good KS. And now maybe they have to hire accountants and lawyers instead of more artists and writers.

As a small publisher, I do not feel as confident in 1.1. I published 5e stuff after the SRD and I don't think I'd publish under 1.1 because the license isn't as open (nor would I use GSL or GMs guild). I'm a bit afraid that the new rules might be interpreted in my disfavor somehow. And, if there is a 1.1, what is stopping them from doing 1.2 anytime soon?

Also, I'm not that interested in 5e anymore for various reasons. Not that WotC cares, but anyway...

Maybe I'm a bit of a radical on the subject - I am a fan Lessig's writing and I think everything should be Creative Commons, and also happen to think that all forms of IP benefit Disney much more than they benefits artists or consumers.
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Jam The MF

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2022, 05:40:56 PM »
1.1 OGL?  It's a Trap!!!
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Chris24601

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2022, 08:13:26 PM »
1.1 OGL?  It's a Trap!!!
Speaking as someone who considers their system significantly diverged to not even need any version of the OGL (it will have an open license for 3pp, just not the WotC one), I agree it’s a trap.

Worth remembering in all this is, despite having to backtrack, the 4E plan with a closed GSL, VTT and online management tools is EXACTLY what the heads of Hasbro/WotC wanted D&D to become.

5e was a saving throw, but not what they really wanted… and now they’re trying again, just being sneakier about it… calling what is, in truth, an enforceable contract “OGL 1.1” when every announced change serves to make it less open.

Basically, 6e is going to be 4E2.0, just gussied up with weasel wording after getting smacked by doing it openly.

Ruprecht

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« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2022, 08:29:21 PM »
Mentioned something interesting in that he makes a few modules for 5e under his patreon and felt he would have to go with the 1.1 to be able to continue as before. I suspect that there are a lot of people in the same situation.
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PulpHerb

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2022, 09:27:56 AM »
I don't think that they care about legacy 1.0a OGL VTT stuff. They are assuming a lot of people will just move to the new hotness.

So they've already forgotten 4e.

Chris24601

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2022, 09:49:37 AM »
I don't think that they care about legacy 1.0a OGL VTT stuff. They are assuming a lot of people will just move to the new hotness.

So they've already forgotten 4e.
No, but they’re hoping we have.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2022, 10:13:10 AM »
I don't think that they care about legacy 1.0a OGL VTT stuff. They are assuming a lot of people will just move to the new hotness.

So they've already forgotten 4e.
No, but they’re hoping we have.

  Might not be as bad a bet as we think (and I say this as someone who likes 4E): It's been over a decade since the last 4E product, and a lot of their fanbase now probably doesn't know any form of D&D but 5E and Pathfinder.

Ruprecht

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2022, 10:18:10 AM »
That makes me think. I found a 4E srd but I wasn't sure if it was legit or not (not on Wizards site).
Anyway, if not, they should release it now. That is assuming they aren't going to blend that war gamey stuff into the 6E virtual table-top.
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PulpHerb

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2022, 11:24:03 AM »

  Might not be as bad a bet as we think (and I say this as someone who likes 4E): It's been over a decade since the last 4E product, and a lot of their fanbase now probably doesn't know any form of D&D but 5E and Pathfinder.

Only knowing 5e is good.

If they know PF, the PF crowd will probably start discussing recruiting from disaffected 5e players like they did disaffected 3e players, in which case they'll learn the history.

PulpHerb

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2022, 11:24:55 AM »
That makes me think. I found a 4E srd but I wasn't sure if it was legit or not (not on Wizards site).
Anyway, if not, they should release it now. That is assuming they aren't going to blend that war gamey stuff into the 6E virtual table-top.

There is an attempt at a 4e clone/SRD on GitHub. If that's the one you saw, it isn't official.

There had to be one to go with the GSL, but I don't know if it was every public.

Jaeger

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2022, 02:37:59 PM »
My 2c.

"Let's see what happens", IMO, is a perfect recipe to being unable to do anything later. And there is little I can do except complain - but I think the time to complain is now.
...

I don't want anyone to "complain".

Mock, laugh, and point fingers, sure.

But try and actually get WotC's attention and let them know there might be issues?

Fuck no.

Let them do this.

This will be the best thing that has happened to the hobby in over ten years.


BOB World Builder Mentioned something interesting in that he makes a few modules for 5e under his patreon and felt he would have to go with the 1.1 to be able to continue as before. I suspect that there are a lot of people in the same situation.

Yup. And WotC knows it.

The 5e ecosystem has gotten so big that WotC really has the whip hand now.

PF2 is too focused a game to attract enough fans for a 4e/PF1 repeat. And no other company is in a position to to what Baizuo did.

As far as WotC is concerned they have no potential competition to pull their card when they write this big fat check for the OneVTT.


I don't think that they care about legacy 1.0a OGL VTT stuff. They are assuming a lot of people will just move to the new hotness.

So they've already forgotten 4e.
No, but they’re hoping we have.

  Might not be as bad a bet as we think (and I say this as someone who likes 4E): It's been over a decade since the last 4E product, and a lot of their fanbase now probably doesn't know any form of D&D but 5E and Pathfinder.

^This^

Most of the new fans have no idea of the 4e shenanigans. Why shouldn't WotC bank on that?

In defense of WotC's arrogance; when they treated the old fans like total poo with the 4e PR roll-out, and made an edition of the game that no one was asking for - alienating the majority of the player base in the process: The overwhelming majority of them came flooding back with the release of 5e. Most D&D fans couldn't wait to once again bow down and lick the hand that feeds.

What was the real lesson learned by WotC in the 4e debacle?

That they can utterly shit on their own fanbase, and so long as they are able to switch gears to something more palatable if it goes sideways - all will be forgiven...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 03:05:10 PM by Jaeger »
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PulpHerb

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2022, 04:07:35 PM »

I don't think that they care about legacy 1.0a OGL VTT stuff. They are assuming a lot of people will just move to the new hotness.

So they've already forgotten 4e.
No, but they’re hoping we have.

  Might not be as bad a bet as we think (and I say this as someone who likes 4E): It's been over a decade since the last 4E product, and a lot of their fanbase now probably doesn't know any form of D&D but 5E and Pathfinder.

^This^

Most of the new fans have no idea of the 4e shenanigans. Why shouldn't WotC bank on that?

In defense of WotC's arrogance; when they treated the old fans like total poo with the 4e PR roll-out, and made an edition of the game that no one was asking for - alienating the majority of the player base in the process: The overwhelming majority of them came flooding back with the release of 5e. Most D&D fans couldn't wait to once again bow down and lick the hand that feeds.

What was the real lesson learned by WotC in the 4e debacle?

That they can utterly shit on their own fanbase, and so long as they are able to switch gears to something more palatable if it goes sideways - all will be forgiven...

That is quite possibly the lesson they learned.

As I've said before, I came to enjoy 4e by thinking about it as an alternate dungeon crawler than "D&D" and wound up running a several year campaign that might still be running if not for player death and COVID.

I have enjoyed 5e less because it came just enough back to D&D for that "not D&D" trick to not work.

That said, that seems like a "fool me once" lesson. You may be, might even probably be, right, but at my day job those aren't bones I'd roll (then again, my bread and butter is hedging interest rate sensitive investments, so I have different risk settings at work than someone at Hasbro).

Omega

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Re: DnDone 1.1 OGL & SRD = Stealth GSL Lite?
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2023, 12:34:21 PM »
Ih there are still arent 4e fans and several 4e cultists. Most seem parked over on BGG and Reddit.