Jessica Price decides to reveal a whole bunch of dirty laundry from her time working for Paizo on the Pathfinder RPG. In so doing, she reveals the misery of what being a supposed "industry pro" is really all about.
#pathfinder
#dnd #ttrpg #OSR
NOTE (Retraction): I mistakenly assumed Jessica Price was talking about Jeff Grubb (she referred only to a "jeff" in her Twitter tirade), when in fact it appears she was attacking current Paizo President Jeff Alvarez. My apologies to Mr. Grubb.
Theosophy permeated the early feminist movement. So if Price is against Theosophy isn't she also against feminism?
Receipts: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/51843/summary (https://muse.jhu.edu/article/51843/summary)
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 16, 2021, 09:36:13 PM
Jessica Price decides to reveal a whole bunch of dirty laundry from her time working for Paizo on the Pathfinder RPG. In so doing, she reveals the misery of what being a supposed "industry pro" is really all about.
#pathfinder
#dnd #ttrpg #OSR
So I read through her essay or me too thing or whatever it's called.
Now it's often said that if you meet assholes all the time maybe you're the asshole. I've always disagreed with this because sometimes people are genuinely surrounded by assholes at work. So I'm going to give this woman half of a benfit of the doubt. My logic behind this is this
There are so many absolute bastards in the costal areas and other SJW hives. I can believe that sexual harassment goes on, I can believe that the male feminists in power use their influence to bully and suppress people. They're all arseholes there. But what SJWs don't have the self awareness to realize is that so often, because everyone is an arsehole. They believe everyone everywhere is an arsehole so they can be an arsehole too because "that's just how people are.". They are incapable of realizing that not only does shit roll down hill. But you can't just push it further down. Because sometimes shit rolls up a hill too and you get covered in it after you thought you were safe.
Like a lot of these Me too or whatever this is sort of things, It's very self centered to make this woman look like a saint surrounded by Sodom. As I said, I can believe a lot of the things mentioned in the whatever it's called. Maybe exaggerated or taken out of context. But I've worked in offices before on creative projects. This sort of thing happens. Offices of creatives often become like High School. With all the bullshit that entails.
But like a lot of SJWs, this woman wants us to forget that she most likely participated in many of the things she has deemed as problematic. She won't tell us herself of course but past behavior is a great predictor for present and future behavior. And these wokeies always think real life is just like Twitter. We've seen her behavior in public. So we know how she can be. She's probably worse in private.
She's also trying to get us to not realize that this entire piece isn't done to actually advance any meaningful change at Paizo but just raise her star and get attention.
TLDR: She's probably lying. She's absolutely a bitch, but so is the industry.
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 16, 2021, 09:36:13 PM
In so doing, she reveals the misery of what being a supposed "industry pro" is really all about.
lalalala I cant hear you
(https://i.imgflip.com/yhzjy.jpg)
In my experience, the louder the "male feminist", the more likely that they'll harass/abuse a woman. Most use it as a smokescreen for shitty behavior.
Brad Walker - sometime poster here, made a rather good point on his blog about WOTC in all this mess:
Quote from: https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"Both Stupid Seattle Game Publishers pay no better than any other publisher that can afford to pay at all, and considering Wankers By The Beach has Big Corporate money behind it that's especially galling. ..."
The fact that WOTC pays no better than any other RPG company is a real indication of exactly what the heads of D&D who are secure in their positions really think about the freelancers they hire.
Of all the places outsourcing writing; WOTC should be paying their freelancers on similar scale to writers in other fields.
The fact that they don't is classic
'Kick away the ladder' Pirate Economics behavior by those currently in charge of D&D who were able to gain full-time positions in the gaming industry early in life.
In their heart of hearts they
know that they have no special talent or skill. That they are wholly reliant on the D&D logo above their name for their industry cache.
They fear the very idea of having to compete under their own name with the likes of Kevin Crawford, Pundit, or some of their own damn freelancers in anything resembling an open market...
By purposefully paying their freelancers bottom barrel RPG industry rates they are intentionally driving away any potential talent that could catch the eye of their corporate overlords, or attain any kind of following within current D&D fandom.
IMHO they are literally gatekeeping as much real talent out of the RPG industry as possible by making it far more lucrative for the truly talented to pursue different careers than writing RPGs...
Here's something else to think about:
When was the last time WOTC published a module with only one writers name on the cover?
We know from TSR history and current OSR offerings that it is completely possible for one person to write a complete high quality D&D supplement. Why does everything released for 5e come from an ensemble of writers?
Quote from: Jaeger on September 18, 2021, 07:56:51 PM
Here's something else to think about:
When was the last time WOTC published a module with only one writers name on the cover?
We know from TSR history and current OSR offerings that it is completely possible for one person to write a complete high quality D&D supplement. Why does everything released for 5e come from an ensemble of writers?
I figured that may be driven by the same sort of professional politics that have caused *everyone* who touches any aspect of software during development to be called a "developer" at some companies. Maybe wotc staff all want the glory of a writing credit on an official D&D module. So the editor who changes or re-arranges text, the QA person who suggested an encounter, the artist who added something to the art that wound up in the module - they all get a writing credit if they can manage it.
Quote from: Jaeger on September 18, 2021, 07:56:51 PM
The fact that they don't is classic 'Kick away the ladder' Pirate Economics behavior by those currently in charge of D&D who were able to gain full-time positions in the gaming industry early in life.
I know absolutely f-all about the RPG industry specifically, but I would be really surprised if this was the main story. At least in my own experience as a manager, cost control is important but so is quality control. So it's not a race to the bottom. You pay what is your best guess the market will bear to get the resources you need to deliver the quality of product you want to deliver - which is good enough, but no better than that.
I suspect the reason WotC pay so absymally is because there are a lot of people willing to take that salary who will deliver product to the level of quality required by WotC.
I am not saying this is a level of quality that you or I might be satisfied with. But then it is not WotC's responsibility to deliver the bestest possible RPG material according to your or my ideas. It is their job to deliver product that is good enough to shift stock.
WotC is a dominant market incumbent and therefore have the power to deliver same-quality product at a higher price point, or worse product at the same price point, as OSR folks. They probably also have some monopsony market power in recruiting (i.e. can pay less for same-quality staff), but that isn't some evil conspiracy, it's just the market structure.
If they were missing their commercial targets their bosses would want answers, and if there was any kind of case to be made that the problem was the product wasn't good enough to sell, then bosses would come down on that like a ton of bricks.
Having said all the above, it is funny how soon their leftist politics go out the window when it comes to paying their staff.
Quote from: Jaeger on September 18, 2021, 07:56:51 PM
Quote from: https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"Both Stupid Seattle Game Publishers pay no better than any other publisher that can afford to pay at all, and considering Wankers By The Beach has Big Corporate money behind it that's especially galling. ..."
IMHO they are literally gatekeeping as much real talent out of the RPG industry as possible by making it far more lucrative for the truly talented to pursue different careers than writing RPGs...
Quote from: Marchand on September 20, 2021, 12:28:02 AM
At least in my own experience as a manager, cost control is important but so is quality control. So it's not a race to the bottom. You pay what is your best guess the market will bear to get the resources you need to deliver the quality of product you want to deliver - which is good enough, but no better than that.
I suspect the reason WotC pay so absymally is because there are a lot of people willing to take that salary who will deliver product to the level of quality required by WotC.
I am not saying this is a level of quality that you or I might be satisfied with. But then it is not WotC's responsibility to deliver the bestest possible RPG material according to your or my ideas. It is their job to deliver product that is good enough to shift stock.
I'd split the difference here some. Artistically I'd love it if RPG writers got paid top dollar so the best writers came to write RPG systems and modules. But that's not how capitalism works - so it's not what I would expect of a for-profit company. It's not an invalid business practice to pay workers the going market rate. That means that the best writers are going to go into other fields - because that's what the market says. RPGs have never paid the best compared to other fields, and writers in general tend not to make great money.
Still, companies may be doing specific practices that are bad for authors that don't particularly save money, and that's likely just bad business. Even when paying market rates, companies can attempt to treat their writers as well as reasonable, rather than short-sightedly skimping on them and the work environment.
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 03:24:35 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on September 18, 2021, 07:56:51 PM
Quote from: https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"Both Stupid Seattle Game Publishers pay no better than any other publisher that can afford to pay at all, and considering Wankers By The Beach has Big Corporate money behind it that's especially galling. ..."
IMHO they are literally gatekeeping as much real talent out of the RPG industry as possible by making it far more lucrative for the truly talented to pursue different careers than writing RPGs...
Quote from: Marchand on September 20, 2021, 12:28:02 AM
At least in my own experience as a manager, cost control is important but so is quality control. So it's not a race to the bottom. You pay what is your best guess the market will bear to get the resources you need to deliver the quality of product you want to deliver - which is good enough, but no better than that.
I suspect the reason WotC pay so absymally is because there are a lot of people willing to take that salary who will deliver product to the level of quality required by WotC.
I am not saying this is a level of quality that you or I might be satisfied with. But then it is not WotC's responsibility to deliver the bestest possible RPG material according to your or my ideas. It is their job to deliver product that is good enough to shift stock.
I'd split the difference here some. Artistically I'd love it if RPG writers got paid top dollar so the best writers came to write RPG systems and modules. But that's not how capitalism works - so it's not what I would expect of a for-profit company. It's not an invalid business practice to pay workers the going market rate. That means that the best writers are going to go into other fields - because that's what the market says. RPGs have never paid the best compared to other fields, and writers in general tend not to make great money.
Still, companies may be doing specific practices that are bad for authors that don't particularly save money, and that's likely just bad business. Even when paying market rates, companies can attempt to treat their writers as well as reasonable, rather than short-sightedly skimping on them and the work environment.
It's not about capitalism, it's about having more to show the sharehoilders this quarter than the last and than the same quarter last year.
From a bussiness standpoint, hiring the best you can afford is a good practice, since this means the competition can't have him/her.
Key word:
AffordThing is the market jugernaut is a cheaskate because it needs to show more profits to the shareholders, which drives the hiring prices down and the really small publishers might not be able to afford to pay much more if at all.
Now, the writters currently working at WotC are stupid and/or talentless, why? because if they weren't they could be making more money self publishing their shit without compatible with 5e logo.
But they have slave mentality, or at least serf mentality, they "deserve" a "living wage", even if their talents or the market say otherwise.
Quote from: Marchand on September 20, 2021, 12:28:02 AM
At least in my own experience as a manager, cost control is important but so is quality control. So it's not a race to the bottom. You pay what is your best guess the market will bear to get the resources you need to deliver the quality of product you want to deliver - which is good enough, but no better than that.
...
I don't know about the economic side of RPGs. Seems to be a little like US textiles, where the margins are so razor thin at US labor costs, it's hard to do well even if you do everything right.
But speaking of "race to the bottom', that exactly describes the answer to who is really out of control here, Price or the people she tears into? Why not both? I'm convinced that a big part of why SJW make such outrageous statements about the nastiness of people in general is because in the circles where they spend most of their time, their accusations are largely true. It's merely a short step from there to assume their local hell-hole is representative, especially for the evidence and logic impaired.
I keep reading this thread title as "Industry Pros Reveal Pathetic Life of Jessica Price."
Quote from: Aglondir on September 20, 2021, 12:46:40 PM
I keep reading this thread title as "Industry Pros Reveal Pathetic Life of Jessica Price."
;D
Those 2 things could be simultaneously true.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Thing is the market jugernaut is a cheaskate because it needs to show more profits to the shareholders, which drives the hiring prices down and the really small publishers might not be able to afford to pay much more if at all.
Now, the writters currently working at WotC are stupid and/or talentless, why? because if they weren't they could be making more money self publishing their shit without compatible with 5e logo.
I'm not an industry insider, but that doesn't sound right to me. From my personal circles, it seems to me that almost no one is making a living in game self-publishing. Instead, it's a hobby they do on the side of their more regular job - which is part of why it takes so long for indie games to be released. On the other hand, I do know a few people who are making a poor living doing freelance game writing - which generally includes WotC or Paizo or similar. It's a sucky job, but that's more lucrative than something that can't even pay the bills.
Self-publishing means that someone's name is more visible and that they necessarily have to self-promote, but I'm doubtful that on average it pays better than freelance.
Quote from: Marchand on September 20, 2021, 12:28:02 AM
I suspect the reason WotC pay so absymally is because there are a lot of people willing to take that salary who will deliver product to the level of quality required by WotC.
This is actually a big part of it. There are a lot of lemmings willing to "Starve for their art"... IMHO a big part of the problem with that is the idea within the hobby that RPGs are "art".
Quote from: Marchand on September 20, 2021, 12:28:02 AM...
Having said all the above, it is funny how soon their leftist politics go out the window when it comes to paying their staff.
I am Shocked! Shocked I say!
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 03:24:35 AM
I'd split the difference here some. Artistically I'd love it if RPG writers got paid top dollar so the best writers came to write RPG systems and modules. ...
It's not about paying top dollar, my point was that even WOTC with big Hasbro bucks, and Magic money behind it doesn't even come close to paying what the
average rates are for writers in other industries.
Although one way to look at it would be that if WOTC started to pay something resembling the average freelancer wage for other industries – that would be top dollar for RPG freelancers.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
It's not about capitalism, it's about having more to show the sharehoilders this quarter than the last and than the same quarter last year.
Yes. It is the Harvard business school of parasite economics - You squeeze all the profit you can regardless of the long term consequences for that quarterly dividend payment, and if things go tits-up you just sail on your golden parachute to the next job, where you promise all new shareholders that you can increase their dividend payment...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
From a business standpoint, hiring the best you can afford is a good practice, since this means the competition can't have him/her.
...
This would be best practice. Unfortunately, the RPG industry has a few quirks that keep this from becoming a reality. The chief one being D&D's current ridiculous market share dominance, giving WOTC a virtual monopoly position in the hobby.
The RPG industry was more lucrative for others in the late 80's and 90's when D&D was not the overwhelming juggernaut that it is today.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 20, 2021, 11:39:03 AM
...
But speaking of "race to the bottom', that exactly describes the answer to who is really out of control here, Price or the people she tears into? Why not both? I'm convinced that a big part of why SJW make such outrageous statements about the nastiness of people in general is because in the circles where they spend most of their time, their accusations are largely true. It's merely a short step from there to assume their local hell-hole is representative, especially for the evidence and logic impaired.
It absolutely is both. Price's screed is a classic case of eating their own.
You are also right in that these people live in self induced bubbles that they won't get out of. IMHO, SJW's are some of the most self-segregating people on earth.
Their statements about the world in general are absolutely a projection of the behavior regularly found within their own SJW communities.
Just look how many accusations of improper behavior come out of their own side.
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Thing is the market jugernaut is a cheaskate because it needs to show more profits to the shareholders, which drives the hiring prices down and the really small publishers might not be able to afford to pay much more if at all.
Now, the writters currently working at WotC are stupid and/or talentless, why? because if they weren't they could be making more money self publishing their shit without compatible with 5e logo.
I'm not an industry insider, but that doesn't sound right to me. From my personal circles, it seems to me that almost no one is making a living in game self-publishing. Instead, it's a hobby they do on the side of their more regular job - which is part of why it takes so long for indie games to be released. On the other hand, I do know a few people who are making a poor living doing freelance game writing - which generally includes WotC or Paizo or similar. It's a sucky job, but that's more lucrative than something that can't even pay the bills.
Self-publishing means that someone's name is more visible and that they necessarily have to self-promote, but I'm doubtful that on average it pays better than freelance.
IMHO I think Bugle is just saying that writers of real talent could be making more on their own, that doesn't mean that "more than what WOTC would pay" = making a living.
On the whole I think that you are right though, and are basically in agreement with this sentiment:
https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"...The only folks making a living are the owner-publisher sorts, and they are all Boomers that made their bones decades ago like Kevin Siembieda or Steve Jackson. Everyone else--and increasingly, even the "big players"--are relying on crowdfunding not just to make it to market, but to keep things going at all. The smarter ones do tabletop RPGs as a side hustle, or--like the Pundit--live where the cost of living is low enough to make it work."
Quote from: Jaeger on September 20, 2021, 03:56:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Thing is the market jugernaut is a cheaskate because it needs to show more profits to the shareholders, which drives the hiring prices down and the really small publishers might not be able to afford to pay much more if at all.
Now, the writters currently working at WotC are stupid and/or talentless, why? because if they weren't they could be making more money self publishing their shit without compatible with 5e logo.
I'm not an industry insider, but that doesn't sound right to me. From my personal circles, it seems to me that almost no one is making a living in game self-publishing. Instead, it's a hobby they do on the side of their more regular job - which is part of why it takes so long for indie games to be released. On the other hand, I do know a few people who are making a poor living doing freelance game writing - which generally includes WotC or Paizo or similar. It's a sucky job, but that's more lucrative than something that can't even pay the bills.
Self-publishing means that someone's name is more visible and that they necessarily have to self-promote, but I'm doubtful that on average it pays better than freelance.
IMHO I think Bugle is just saying that writers of real talent could be making more on their own, that doesn't mean that "more than what WOTC would pay" = making a living.
On the whole I think that you are right though, and are basically in agreement with this sentiment:
https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"...The only folks making a living are the owner-publisher sorts, and they are all Boomers that made their bones decades ago like Kevin Siembieda or Steve Jackson. Everyone else--and increasingly, even the "big players"--are relying on crowdfunding not just to make it to market, but to keep things going at all. The smarter ones do tabletop RPGs as a side hustle, or--like the Pundit--live where the cost of living is low enough to make it work."
Yep, living of it requires talent and moving to where it's cheap but...
SJWs have no talent and wouldn't move to where it's cheaper cuz it would mean living near the plebs or non-white people.
So they live in the most expensive cities 15 to a room eating cat food while preaching to the plebs and non-whites how morally superior they are.
Quote from: Jaeger on September 20, 2021, 03:31:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 03:24:35 AM
I'd split the difference here some. Artistically I'd love it if RPG writers got paid top dollar so the best writers came to write RPG systems and modules. ...
It's not about paying top dollar, my point was that even WOTC with big Hasbro bucks, and Magic money behind it doesn't even come close to paying what the average rates are for writers in other industries.
Although one way to look at it would be that if WOTC started to pay something resembling the average freelancer wage for other industries – that would be top dollar for RPG freelancers.
Right. The latter is what I meant. It sounds like WOTC is paying comparable to other RPG freelancers for RPG writing. And inherently, I don't think they have any ethical obligation to do otherwise. They are a for-profit company. In order to provide good return to their investors, they should pay in a way that is profitable and sustainable given the market. For contrast, a recent thread on TSR showed how TSR's profits were terrible even as their income was going sharply up.
I'm not saying I know for sure - but it seems to me quite possible that their overall freelance pay may be a wise business strategy that gives them greater return on investment.
Quote from: Jaeger on September 20, 2021, 03:56:04 PM
IMHO I think Bugle is just saying that writers of real talent could be making more on their own, that doesn't mean that "more than what WOTC would pay" = making a living.
On the whole I think that you are right though, and are basically in agreement with this sentiment:
https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"...The only folks making a living are the owner-publisher sorts, and they are all Boomers that made their bones decades ago like Kevin Siembieda or Steve Jackson. Everyone else--and increasingly, even the "big players"--are relying on crowdfunding not just to make it to market, but to keep things going at all. The smarter ones do tabletop RPGs as a side hustle, or--like the Pundit--live where the cost of living is low enough to make it work."
I'll buy that Siembieda or Jackson are making a living as publishers for games like Munchkin and such - but that's because they're working as publishers rather than writers. If one wants to make a living as a writer, the question is whether it is better to freelance or self-publish. Among writers, I do know a handful of people who have done it for a living, like Ken Hite whom I knew in college. Hite was making a marginal living. His work was mostly freelance, not self-publishing.
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 05:02:03 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on September 20, 2021, 03:56:04 PM
IMHO I think Bugle is just saying that writers of real talent could be making more on their own, that doesn't mean that "more than what WOTC would pay" = making a living.
On the whole I think that you are right though, and are basically in agreement with this sentiment:
https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"...The only folks making a living are the owner-publisher sorts, and they are all Boomers that made their bones decades ago like Kevin Siembieda or Steve Jackson. Everyone else--and increasingly, even the "big players"--are relying on crowdfunding not just to make it to market, but to keep things going at all. The smarter ones do tabletop RPGs as a side hustle, or--like the Pundit--live where the cost of living is low enough to make it work."
I'll buy that Siembieda or Jackson are making a living as publishers for games like Munchkin and such - but that's because they're working as publishers rather than writers. If one wants to make a living as a writer, the question is whether it is better to freelance or self-publish. Among writers, I do know a handful of people who have done it for a living, like Ken Hite whom I knew in college. Hite was making a marginal living. His work was mostly freelance, not self-publishing.
What's the difference between "Self-Publish" and "Publisher"?
IMHO it's a distinction without difference.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
What's the difference between "Self-Publish" and "Publisher"?
IMHO it's a distinction without difference.
I'd say a self-publisher is someone who publishes only what they themselves have written.
A publisher primarily pays other people to write and concentrates on the business of publication and distribution. Kevin Siembieda and Steve Jackson may have started out as writers decades ago, but since then they have focused on managing the business and have hired freelance writers for the vast majority of writing that they publish.
EDITED TO ADD: There is a middle ground as someone might write 75% of what they publish, or 50% of what they publish, or 25% of what they publish, etc. I think it's fine to just call these as borderline.
The reason why most RPG writers get paid so poorly is that they produce bad fan fic that I can also fart out 5 minutes before the game.
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 05:27:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
What's the difference between "Self-Publish" and "Publisher"?
IMHO it's a distinction without difference.
I'd say a self-publisher is someone who publishes only what they themselves have written.
A publisher primarily pays other people to write and concentrates on the business of publication and distribution. Kevin Siembieda and Steve Jackson may have started out as writers decades ago, but since then they have focused on managing the business and have hired freelance writers for the vast majority of writing that they publish.
EDITED TO ADD: There is a middle ground as someone might write 75% of what they publish, or 50% of what they publish, or 25% of what they publish, etc. I think it's fine to just call these as borderline.
So, in the case I postulate Self-Publisher IS a publisher that doesn't publish stuff from anyone else. They also don't have to share the profits with anyone else (except maybe the artist).
Formating stuff to publish isn't that hard, you just need to know your word processor.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 06:07:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 05:27:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
What's the difference between "Self-Publish" and "Publisher"?
IMHO it's a distinction without difference.
I'd say a self-publisher is someone who publishes only what they themselves have written.
A publisher primarily pays other people to write and concentrates on the business of publication and distribution. Kevin Siembieda and Steve Jackson may have started out as writers decades ago, but since then they have focused on managing the business and have hired freelance writers for the vast majority of writing that they publish.
EDITED TO ADD: There is a middle ground as someone might write 75% of what they publish, or 50% of what they publish, or 25% of what they publish, etc. I think it's fine to just call these as borderline.
So, in the case I postulate Self-Publisher IS a publisher that doesn't publish stuff from anyone else. They also don't have to share the profits with anyone else (except maybe the artist).
Formating stuff to publish isn't that hard, you just need to know your word processor.
Formatting stuff DECENTLY isn't hard. Formatting it well is a skill.
To self-publish you also need to market. And to pay up-front for artwork. And pay for editing if you don't want there to be grammar issues. (No one can edit their own manuscript more than at a mediocre level.)
Someone freelancing for an established publisher will almost always sell more copies than self-publishing a 100% identical module/book - because the publisher will have it on their storefront.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on September 20, 2021, 07:14:55 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 06:07:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 05:27:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
What's the difference between "Self-Publish" and "Publisher"?
IMHO it's a distinction without difference.
I'd say a self-publisher is someone who publishes only what they themselves have written.
A publisher primarily pays other people to write and concentrates on the business of publication and distribution. Kevin Siembieda and Steve Jackson may have started out as writers decades ago, but since then they have focused on managing the business and have hired freelance writers for the vast majority of writing that they publish.
EDITED TO ADD: There is a middle ground as someone might write 75% of what they publish, or 50% of what they publish, or 25% of what they publish, etc. I think it's fine to just call these as borderline.
So, in the case I postulate Self-Publisher IS a publisher that doesn't publish stuff from anyone else. They also don't have to share the profits with anyone else (except maybe the artist).
Formating stuff to publish isn't that hard, you just need to know your word processor.
Formatting stuff DECENTLY isn't hard. Formatting it well is a skill.
To self-publish you also need to market. And to pay up-front for artwork. And pay for editing if you don't want there to be grammar issues. (No one can edit their own manuscript more than at a mediocre level.)
Someone freelancing for an established publisher will almost always sell more copies than self-publishing a 100% identical module/book - because the publisher will have it on their storefront.
Lets say you're 100% right on the art & editing...
There's this thing called crowdfunding, IF I can show the writting is done% and only the art and editing need to be done I'm pretty sure I can get the project funded. I might even be able to pay for formatting.
And marketing, well start talking about it constantly on all social media platforms you're on. Well before finishing the project, start creating interest.
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Thing is the market jugernaut is a cheaskate because it needs to show more profits to the shareholders, which drives the hiring prices down and the really small publishers might not be able to afford to pay much more if at all.
Now, the writters currently working at WotC are stupid and/or talentless, why? because if they weren't they could be making more money self publishing their shit without compatible with 5e logo.
I'm not an industry insider, but that doesn't sound right to me. From my personal circles, it seems to me that almost no one is making a living in game self-publishing. Instead, it's a hobby they do on the side of their more regular job - which is part of why it takes so long for indie games to be released. On the other hand, I do know a few people who are making a poor living doing freelance game writing - which generally includes WotC or Paizo or similar. It's a sucky job, but that's more lucrative than something that can't even pay the bills.
Self-publishing means that someone's name is more visible and that they necessarily have to self-promote, but I'm doubtful that on average it pays better than freelance.
Douglas Cole/Gaming Ballistic lives off doing his own rpgs. You can find a link to a recent interview with the man on this site.
Quote from: the crypt keeper on September 20, 2021, 08:12:00 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Thing is the market jugernaut is a cheaskate because it needs to show more profits to the shareholders, which drives the hiring prices down and the really small publishers might not be able to afford to pay much more if at all.
Now, the writters currently working at WotC are stupid and/or talentless, why? because if they weren't they could be making more money self publishing their shit without compatible with 5e logo.
I'm not an industry insider, but that doesn't sound right to me. From my personal circles, it seems to me that almost no one is making a living in game self-publishing. Instead, it's a hobby they do on the side of their more regular job - which is part of why it takes so long for indie games to be released. On the other hand, I do know a few people who are making a poor living doing freelance game writing - which generally includes WotC or Paizo or similar. It's a sucky job, but that's more lucrative than something that can't even pay the bills.
Self-publishing means that someone's name is more visible and that they necessarily have to self-promote, but I'm doubtful that on average it pays better than freelance.
Douglas Cole/Gaming Ballistic lives off doing his own rpgs. You can find a link to a recent interview with the man on this site.
A working link? The one I found is for me to set up a podcast, something I don't want to do.
What is the exact dollar amount of "making a living?" I get that people living in very urban areas making 6 figures will think that anyone making less than they do is not making a living. But as geeky pointed out there are all kinds of places one can live and live on considerably less (I would even say they can actually live in cheap places around white people as well as non-white people). I know if I were a single man, my living expenses would be massively diminished. So when we say making a living, what are we talking here? Making 50k a year? 100k? or 30K? or less? or more?
Quote from: oggsmash on September 20, 2021, 08:25:11 PM
What is the exact dollar amount of "making a living?" I get that people living in very urban areas making 6 figures will think that anyone making less than they do is not making a living. But as geeky pointed out there are all kinds of places one can live and live on considerably less (I would even say they can actually live in cheap places around white people as well as non-white people). I know if I were a single man, my living expenses would be massively diminished. So when we say making a living, what are we talking here? Making 50k a year? 100k? or 30K? or less? or more?
Sure, they could live surrounded by white people, but those would be the plebs, and they are the anointed. Never gonna happen.
Quote from: oggsmash on September 20, 2021, 08:25:11 PM
What is the exact dollar amount of "making a living?" I get that people living in very urban areas making 6 figures will think that anyone making less than they do is not making a living. But as geeky pointed out there are all kinds of places one can live and live on considerably less (I would even say they can actually live in cheap places around white people as well as non-white people). I know if I were a single man, my living expenses would be massively diminished. So when we say making a living, what are we talking here? Making 50k a year? 100k? or 30K? or less? or more?
IMHO, In the US about 60K would be decent.
Equivalent to a somewhat normal professional position. Believe me, no one is living large at that income level...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 08:06:55 PM
Lets say you're 100% right on the art & editing...
There's this thing called crowdfunding, IF I can show the writting is done% and only the art and editing need to be done I'm pretty sure I can get the project funded. I might even be able to pay for formatting.
And marketing, well start talking about it constantly on all social media platforms you're on. Well before finishing the project, start creating interest.
Crowdfunding, organizing the art/editing, and budgeting for publishing are all very different skills from the writing piece of a TTRPG book.
I'm not saying that it's impossible to do all of them - but it's a lot of extra work & not something that the best TTRPG writers are inherently skilled at.
It's not like most TTRPG publishers have massive profits which the writer is being unfairly kept from seeing a piece of. With the exception of maybe D&D - the vast majority entire industry is pretty much published with shoestrings & bubblegum. Almost nobody up or down the chain is making bank.
Edit: grammar
Median wage in the US in Q4 2020 was $51,158 annual basis, according to the BLS.
A quick google search says avge salary in Seattle is about $67k.
Aged 25 and over without high school diploma (US wide): $31,616. So WotC are basically paying the economy's floor rate, in an expensive city.
That said these are whole-labour-market comparisons. I guess the avge WotC employee is young. Younger workers earn less.
I think the real issue for these people is not so much what they earn now, as where it is going medium to longer term. It is one thing scraping by in a studio apartment on 30k a year in your 20s. How about in your 40s? Is there really a credible career path in the industry?
You'll never get rich working for someone else, but in this hobby, will you be successful without the official Dungeons and Dragons markings on the front of your box?
Good luck.
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 20, 2021, 11:14:55 PM
You'll never get rich working for someone else, but in this hobby, will you be successful without the official Dungeons and Dragons markings on the front of your box?
Good luck.
Depends on where you set your bar for "success." ;-)
But yeah, no, probably not. LOL
Jessica Price is a well-known TROLL:
She's a "Feminactivist" who finds fault in everything she decides is evil. But, her definition of evil is whatever will get her creed on social media. She's a SM tourist. She worked for Paizo and got fired for lack of talent and has been vengeful ever since. JP is a truly boring "sensitivity writer" who's expert at dragging down companies.
Please do not give her any real relevance.
The days of being able to freelance and make a decent living (by RPG standards) are over, just like the days of having staff writers/designers/editors/artists like TSR had is over. And speaking of artists, the days of oil on canvas or ink on paper is over too, and it's a damn shame. If you don't have a racial grievance grift (see that Indian game and the African game), a license or an existing fanbase, you have to go the pundit route as an independent RPG writer. Which is to say you have to get a social media presence and flog your products.
It's a lot of work. The alternative is to enter into an incestuous world of staff writers where sex and sexual orientation matters more than ability. Those with ability (Mike Mearls) and taken out back and strangled by jealous nobodies.
They continually crow about how great DnD is doing nowadays but are very coy about how much of that is from licensing and how much of that is from actually selling books. As a gamer I value books, as a corporation Hasbro will value easy money.
Quote from: horsesoldier on September 21, 2021, 11:19:55 AM
The days of being able to freelance and make a decent living (by RPG standards) are over, just like the days of having staff writers/designers/editors/artists like TSR had is over. And speaking of artists, the days of oil on canvas or ink on paper is over too, and it's a damn shame. If you don't have a racial grievance grift (see that Indian game and the African game), a license or an existing fanbase, you have to go the pundit route as an independent RPG writer. Which is to say you have to get a social media presence and flog your products.
It's a lot of work. The alternative is to enter into an incestuous world of staff writers where sex and sexual orientation matters more than ability. Those with ability (Mike Mearls) and taken out back and strangled by jealous nobodies.
They continually crow about how great DnD is doing nowadays but are very coy about how much of that is from licensing and how much of that is from actually selling books. As a gamer I value books, as a corporation Hasbro will value easy money.
That's a damn fine point actually. I mean I think the books will still sell like crazy (cause it's 5e) but I'd like to know if the recent sjdub infusion into their books since Tasha's has hurt/helped/kept stable book sales.
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 03:24:35 AMI'd split the difference here some. Artistically I'd love it if RPG writers got paid top dollar so the best writers came to write RPG systems and modules. But that's not how capitalism works - so it's not what I would expect of a for-profit company. It's not an invalid business practice to pay workers the going market rate. That means that the best writers are going to go into other fields - because that's what the market says. RPGs have never paid the best compared to other fields, and writers in general tend not to make great money.
Still, companies may be doing specific practices that are bad for authors that don't particularly save money, and that's likely just bad business. Even when paying market rates, companies can attempt to treat their writers as well as reasonable, rather than short-sightedly skimping on them and the work environment.
I suspect also a part of the problem is that many are anti-capitalist, and think that everyone needs to be given a living wage no matter what they do. And what they do instead of pursuing the higher paying jobs is complain on Twitter and indulge in character assassination. As an employer, I would think very carefully before hiring this sort for any work at all.
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 21, 2021, 09:58:46 AM
Jessica Price is a well-known TROLL:
She's a "Feminactivist" who finds fault in everything she decides is evil. But, her definition of evil is whatever will get her creed on social media. She's a SM tourist. She worked for Paizo and got fired for lack of talent and has been vengeful ever since. JP is a truly boring "sensitivity writer" who's expert at dragging down companies.
Please do not give her any real relevance.
Actually, she was incredibly vengeful and destructive
while at Paizo. I think her insane and vitriolic feminism was even too much for Paizo to take, and that's saying alot.
Just a garbage person who should have never been let in the door in the first place.
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 20, 2021, 11:14:55 PM
You'll never get rich working for someone else, but in this hobby, will you be successful without the official Dungeons and Dragons markings on the front of your box?
I have.
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 21, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 20, 2021, 11:14:55 PM
You'll never get rich working for someone else, but in this hobby, will you be successful without the official Dungeons and Dragons markings on the front of your box?
I have.
I was thinking that your success was more the exception, than the rule.
Kevin Crawford (Sine Nomine: Stars without Number, Worlds Without Number, Godbound and others) also seems highly successful.
Admittedly, he's a one man show (he does all the work for his products except art, which he commissions) and from what he wrote in several of his posts here and there he works his ass off on research and playtest, which excludes a whole lot of people in the market. He also has a very keen business mind which further dramatically reduces the pool of potential similarities.
He was also smart enough to identify a well-defined underserved niche (primarily GM-facing OSR sandbox products) and stick to it religiously.
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 21, 2021, 01:00:14 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 21, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 20, 2021, 11:14:55 PM
You'll never get rich working for someone else, but in this hobby, will you be successful without the official Dungeons and Dragons markings on the front of your box?
I have.
I was thinking that your success was more the exception, than the rule.
Anyone who gets rich doing what they do is always the exception, not the rule. However, exceptional results often leave a backtrail that others who also want exceptional results can follow. I know I watched a few videos and the guys doing the videos were writing sci fi for amazon (the ebooks). Amazon actually pays the people publishing there a decent rate per copy sold, and these guys were doing pretty well. Was their fiction good? No. I read a few of their samples and they were pretty terrible writers (like the old conan pastiche novels bad), but they had gained a bit of a following and produced constantly, so they had a bunch of stuff they were making residual income off of. In essence a large portfolio that kept paying them, and some of the titles were a decade old.
I first got interested in how well people were doing writing ebooks for amazon a few years ago watching Joe Rogan and a guest talking about a lady who was making shitloads of money from writing "big foot porn". I laughed my ass off and scoffed at such a thing. However Joe insisted this lady (a house wife in utah who was looking for something to do with her time, started writing under a psuedonym) was raking in cash. Well I looked into it, she had quite an extensive offering of "big foot "romance"" and there was even a legion of people copying her with their own versions of comely maidens out in the woods seeking big foot's love. From the top of my head I do not remember her download numbers, but I want to say everything she offered was in the hundreds of thousands of downloads, I do not remember anything being much less than 2.99, much over 50-60 pages, and I want to say she had at least a dozen offerings. Amazon pays 35-70 percent royalties... so a little math says Joe Rogan was not bullshitting and that lady is doing quite well with big foot porn.
My point is, being hardworking and prolific just *might* matter as much, and often more, than talent. Even if you are talented, it seems to me working for one of the big guns can not last forever as you will feel stifled over time, and it seems the big guns draw in bureaucrats and very smedium talents to be able to get a 'guaranteed' paycheck. So when someone points to an exception (and this is what I used to tell students training BJJ), and then asks what they should do as an average person, I always say... work your ass off to not be average.
Quote from: oggsmash on September 21, 2021, 01:54:17 PM
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 21, 2021, 01:00:14 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 21, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 20, 2021, 11:14:55 PM
You'll never get rich working for someone else, but in this hobby, will you be successful without the official Dungeons and Dragons markings on the front of your box?
I have.
I was thinking that your success was more the exception, than the rule.
Anyone who gets rich doing what they do is always the exception, not the rule. However, exceptional results often leave a backtrail that others who also want exceptional results can follow. I know I watched a few videos and the guys doing the videos were writing sci fi for amazon (the ebooks). Amazon actually pays the people publishing there a decent rate per copy sold, and these guys were doing pretty well. Was their fiction good? No. I read a few of their samples and they were pretty terrible writers (like the old conan pastiche novels bad), but they had gained a bit of a following and produced constantly, so they had a bunch of stuff they were making residual income off of. In essence a large portfolio that kept paying them, and some of the titles were a decade old.
I first got interested in how well people were doing writing ebooks for amazon a few years ago watching Joe Rogan and a guest talking about a lady who was making shitloads of money from writing "big foot porn". I laughed my ass off and scoffed at such a thing. However Joe insisted this lady (a house wife in utah who was looking for something to do with her time, started writing under a psuedonym) was raking in cash. Well I looked into it, she had quite an extensive offering of "big foot "romance"" and there was even a legion of people copying her with their own versions of comely maidens out in the woods seeking big foot's love. From the top of my head I do not remember her download numbers, but I want to say everything she offered was in the hundreds of thousands of downloads, I do not remember anything being much less than 2.99, much over 50-60 pages, and I want to say she had at least a dozen offerings. Amazon pays 35-70 percent royalties... so a little math says Joe Rogan was not bullshitting and that lady is doing quite well with big foot porn.
My point is, being hardworking and prolific just *might* matter as much, and often more, than talent. Even if you are talented, it seems to me working for one of the big guns can not last forever as you will feel stifled over time, and it seems the big guns draw in bureaucrats and very smedium talents to be able to get a 'guaranteed' paycheck. So when someone points to an exception (and this is what I used to tell students training BJJ), and then asks what they should do as an average person, I always say... work your ass off to not be average.
This.
Take the Pundit road and start writting your own "zine" but instead of articles give me value for my money. Tables, shit loads of tables, new spells, new weapons, classes, etc.
If you take the time to make it good you can generate residual income forever.
Now take those same tables, etc and boom, you already have the fundations for a new spin on a game.
A lot of the people making money in RPGs these days are getting it via Patreon.
https://www.patreon.com/search?q=Rpg
You notice how many of them are mapmakers specializing in VTTs?
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 21, 2021, 01:00:14 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 21, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 20, 2021, 11:14:55 PM
You'll never get rich working for someone else, but in this hobby, will you be successful without the official Dungeons and Dragons markings on the front of your box?
I have.
I was thinking that your success was more the exception, than the rule.
I hope this isn't too much of a thread derail. It's not too big of an exception. I've only sold about a thousand copies so far, but we kickstarted to the tune of $30k and have good revenue for a brand new system with no industry connections. People still want good games. Finding them takes a lot of work, but wow are there are lot more than ever out there.
D&D is king, but the minority of gamers willing to try new systems has grown a lot too. My biggest success comes via FB ads. Reddit has worked well too.
Here's the rub though, and sort of on the topic of the thread. The crowd Jessica runs in is the opposite of who I sell my books to. The Gen X crowd buying my books has no idea who Jessica Price is, or what gamer gate is. If you asked them what the current version of D&D is they'd probably say 4th - 6th with no degree of certainty. They have deep pockets, and a fondness for cool new games =)
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on September 20, 2021, 10:46:31 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 08:06:55 PM
Lets say you're 100% right on the art & editing...
There's this thing called crowdfunding, IF I can show the writting is done% and only the art and editing need to be done I'm pretty sure I can get the project funded. I might even be able to pay for formatting.
And marketing, well start talking about it constantly on all social media platforms you're on. Well before finishing the project, start creating interest.
Crowdfunding, organizing the art/editing, and budgeting for publishing are all very different skills from the writing piece of a TTRPG book.
I'm not saying that it's impossible to do all of them - but it's a lot of extra work & not something that the best TTRPG writers are inherently skilled at.
It's not like most TTRPG publishers have massive profits which the writer is being unfairly kept from seeing a piece of. With the exception of maybe D&D - the vast majority entire industry is pretty much published with shoestrings at bubblegum. Almost nobody up or down the chain is making bank.
We see this near constantly in the board gaming and RPG side for crowdfunding. The ones that fail that are not outright scams tend to fail because the designer totally underestimated the costs and work needed to self publish. A few realize this and then take the money and run. Others hit unforeseen walls. The most common being that they were unaware that printing costs can and will vary from factory to factory AND vary based on quantity or even timing. Shipping is another big one that trips people up.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 21, 2021, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: horsesoldier on September 21, 2021, 11:19:55 AM
The days of being able to freelance and make a decent living (by RPG standards) are over, just like the days of having staff writers/designers/editors/artists like TSR had is over. And speaking of artists, the days of oil on canvas or ink on paper is over too, and it's a damn shame. If you don't have a racial grievance grift (see that Indian game and the African game), a license or an existing fanbase, you have to go the pundit route as an independent RPG writer. Which is to say you have to get a social media presence and flog your products.
It's a lot of work. The alternative is to enter into an incestuous world of staff writers where sex and sexual orientation matters more than ability. Those with ability (Mike Mearls) and taken out back and strangled by jealous nobodies.
They continually crow about how great DnD is doing nowadays but are very coy about how much of that is from licensing and how much of that is from actually selling books. As a gamer I value books, as a corporation Hasbro will value easy money.
That's a damn fine point actually. I mean I think the books will still sell like crazy (cause it's 5e) but I'd like to know if the recent sjdub infusion into their books since Tasha's has hurt/helped/kept stable book sales.
Back in the days of 3.0 I had a girlfriend that ironically kept a PHB and a DMG on her bookshelf. It was completely impenetrable and she would like it when I would explain things. Anyway, stuff like Tasha's is just as directed to people like that as it is actual gamers. Which I guess increases their potential market but these kind of buyers aren't going to have many books.
Quote from: Omega on September 22, 2021, 05:09:28 AM
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on September 20, 2021, 10:46:31 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 08:06:55 PM
Lets say you're 100% right on the art & editing...
There's this thing called crowdfunding, IF I can show the writting is done% and only the art and editing need to be done I'm pretty sure I can get the project funded. I might even be able to pay for formatting.
And marketing, well start talking about it constantly on all social media platforms you're on. Well before finishing the project, start creating interest.
Crowdfunding, organizing the art/editing, and budgeting for publishing are all very different skills from the writing piece of a TTRPG book.
I'm not saying that it's impossible to do all of them - but it's a lot of extra work & not something that the best TTRPG writers are inherently skilled at.
It's not like most TTRPG publishers have massive profits which the writer is being unfairly kept from seeing a piece of. With the exception of maybe D&D - the vast majority entire industry is pretty much published with shoestrings at bubblegum. Almost nobody up or down the chain is making bank.
We see this near constantly in the board gaming and RPG side for crowdfunding. The ones that fail that are not outright scams tend to fail because the designer totally underestimated the costs and work needed to self publish. A few realize this and then take the money and run. Others hit unforeseen walls. The most common being that they were unaware that printing costs can and will vary from factory to factory AND vary based on quantity or even timing. Shipping is another big one that trips people up.
Which is why the AWESOME!!! stretch goals of yesteryear are just that. Makes me sad I was poor during those days.
Quote from: Jaeger on September 20, 2021, 09:55:19 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on September 20, 2021, 08:25:11 PM
What is the exact dollar amount of "making a living?" I get that people living in very urban areas making 6 figures will think that anyone making less than they do is not making a living. But as geeky pointed out there are all kinds of places one can live and live on considerably less (I would even say they can actually live in cheap places around white people as well as non-white people). I know if I were a single man, my living expenses would be massively diminished. So when we say making a living, what are we talking here? Making 50k a year? 100k? or 30K? or less? or more?
IMHO, In the US about 60K would be decent.
Equivalent to a somewhat normal professional position. Believe me, no one is living large at that income level...
That would depend on where you live.
For example, there are a fair number of artists and artisans that live in (rural) western North Carolina. They are there, in large part, due to it being a relatively inexpensive place to live.
Quote from: horsesoldier on September 22, 2021, 10:05:03 AM
Which is why the AWESOME!!! stretch goals of yesteryear are just that. Makes me sad I was poor during those days.
Yes - you would have been able to pledge for something amazing which likely didn't end up delivering at all! (I got my Star Citizen lesson - though I'm only out the price of the base game. I'm not one of the crazies.)
Quote from: Jaeger on September 18, 2021, 07:56:51 PM
Brad Walker - sometime poster here, made a rather good point on his blog about WOTC in all this mess:
Quote from: https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"Both Stupid Seattle Game Publishers pay no better than any other publisher that can afford to pay at all, and considering Wankers By The Beach has Big Corporate money behind it that's especially galling. ..."
The fact that WOTC pays no better than any other RPG company is a real indication of exactly what the heads of D&D who are secure in their positions really think about the freelancers they hire.
Of all the places outsourcing writing; WOTC should be paying their freelancers on similar scale to writers in other fields.
The fact that they don't is classic 'Kick away the ladder' Pirate Economics behavior by those currently in charge of D&D who were able to gain full-time positions in the gaming industry early in life.
In their heart of hearts they know that they have no special talent or skill. That they are wholly reliant on the D&D logo above their name for their industry cache.
They fear the very idea of having to compete under their own name with the likes of Kevin Crawford, Pundit, or some of their own damn freelancers in anything resembling an open market...
By purposefully paying their freelancers bottom barrel RPG industry rates they are intentionally driving away any potential talent that could catch the eye of their corporate overlords, or attain any kind of following within current D&D fandom.
IMHO they are literally gatekeeping as much real talent out of the RPG industry as possible by making it far more lucrative for the truly talented to pursue different careers than writing RPGs...
Here's something else to think about:
When was the last time WOTC published a module with only one writers name on the cover?
We know from TSR history and current OSR offerings that it is completely possible for one person to write a complete high quality D&D supplement. Why does everything released for 5e come from an ensemble of writers?
That's a nice conspiracy theory. Did it come with a tin-foil Viking hat?
The RPG industry is full of
fans. Some immensely talented, many not. But many of them are willing to work for peanuts just because it's something they enjoy. Remember, "fan" is short for "fanatic". It's a case of supply outstripping demand, nothing else.
And most of the talented ones have real jobs in real life. The people who whine about how little the RPG industry pays are typically those with no options in other fields, and a massive sense of entitlement that convinces them they
deserve to be paid as much as lawyers or engineers. But since there are so many of them, they're paid like burger flippers (if they're lucky).
Which is the reason why most of the talented writers who are serious enough to do this full time or semi-full time have branched off, and formed their own RPG companies. If they have enough talent (and time) to sustain a brand, they can make decent money. The big companies are left with the half-talents, the no-talents, and the casuals.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on October 04, 2021, 07:59:09 AM
Quote from: horsesoldier on September 22, 2021, 10:05:03 AM
Which is why the AWESOME!!! stretch goals of yesteryear are just that. Makes me sad I was poor during those days.
Yes - you would have been able to pledge for something amazing which likely didn't end up delivering at all! (I got my Star Citizen lesson - though I'm only out the price of the base game. I'm not one of the crazies.)
Yep. Though in hindsight, with all the wild dreams and crazy promises, the hit rate is better than I would have expected.
Quote from: dkabq on October 04, 2021, 07:54:46 AM
For example, there are a fair number of artists and artisans that live in (rural) western North Carolina. They are there, in large part, due to it being a relatively inexpensive place to live.
Ashville, a little piece of Portland in a nice safe sea of Red. :D
I knew a couple who moved there from DC when they got tired of the bullet holes in their car.
Quote from: S'mon on October 04, 2021, 12:46:09 PM
Quote from: dkabq on October 04, 2021, 07:54:46 AM
For example, there are a fair number of artists and artisans that live in (rural) western North Carolina. They are there, in large part, due to it being a relatively inexpensive place to live.
Ashville, a little piece of Portland in a nice safe sea of Red. :D
I knew a couple who moved there from DC when they got tired of the bullet holes in their car.
Ashville itself has gotten pricy. I was thinking more Bryson City. :)
You can always pay creative people shit and get them to work for "fame". Hollywood mastered that decades ago, most especially Disney.
I've known several professional authors and screenwriters who never left their day jobs, even the ones who have one or more bestsellers. They live much better than the authors I know who live off their creative work.
That said, if you want to do game design full-time and live modestly, it's quite possible.
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 05, 2021, 04:40:56 AM
You can always pay creative people shit and get them to work for "fame". Hollywood mastered that decades ago, most especially Disney.
I've known several professional authors and screenwriters who never left their day jobs, even the ones who have one or more bestsellers. They live much better than the authors I know who live off their creative work.
That said, if you want to do game design full-time and live modestly, it's quite possible.
If you are talented enough. In my case, I had best keep my day-job. :)
Quote from: S'mon on October 04, 2021, 12:46:09 PM
Quote from: dkabq on October 04, 2021, 07:54:46 AM
For example, there are a fair number of artists and artisans that live in (rural) western North Carolina. They are there, in large part, due to it being a relatively inexpensive place to live.
Ashville, a little piece of Portland in a nice safe sea of Red. :D
I knew a couple who moved there from DC when they got tired of the bullet holes in their car.
To be fair though, when the hard lefties in asheville decided to create an autonomous zone the police slapped that down instantly. The area around Asheville is nice, rural, lots of easy to access drinking water, and if I were to stay in the USA certainly there are several spots within an hour of Asheville I would gladly set up the compound.