Jessica Price Reveals Pathetic Lives of "Industry Pros"

Jaeger · September 20, 2021, 03:56:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Thing is the market jugernaut is a cheaskate because it needs to show more profits to the shareholders, which drives the hiring prices down and the really small publishers might not be able to afford to pay much more if at all.

Now, the writters currently working at WotC are stupid and/or talentless, why? because if they weren't they could be making more money self publishing their shit without compatible with 5e logo.

I'm not an industry insider, but that doesn't sound right to me. From my personal circles, it seems to me that almost no one is making a living in game self-publishing. Instead, it's a hobby they do on the side of their more regular job - which is part of why it takes so long for indie games to be released. On the other hand, I do know a few people who are making a poor living doing freelance game writing - which generally includes WotC or Paizo or similar. It's a sucky job, but that's more lucrative than something that can't even pay the bills.

Self-publishing means that someone's name is more visible and that they necessarily have to self-promote, but I'm doubtful that on average it pays better than freelance.

IMHO I think Bugle is just saying that writers of real talent could be making more on their own, that doesn't mean that "more than what WOTC would pay" = making a living.

On the whole I think that you are right though, and are basically in agreement with this sentiment:
https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"...The only folks making a living are the owner-publisher sorts, and they are all Boomers that made their bones decades ago like Kevin Siembieda or Steve Jackson. Everyone else--and increasingly, even the "big players"--are relying on crowdfunding not just to make it to market, but to keep things going at all. The smarter ones do tabletop RPGs as a side hustle, or--like the Pundit--live where the cost of living is low enough to make it work."

GeekyBugle · September 20, 2021, 04:39:03 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on September 20, 2021, 03:56:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Thing is the market jugernaut is a cheaskate because it needs to show more profits to the shareholders, which drives the hiring prices down and the really small publishers might not be able to afford to pay much more if at all.

Now, the writters currently working at WotC are stupid and/or talentless, why? because if they weren't they could be making more money self publishing their shit without compatible with 5e logo.

I'm not an industry insider, but that doesn't sound right to me. From my personal circles, it seems to me that almost no one is making a living in game self-publishing. Instead, it's a hobby they do on the side of their more regular job - which is part of why it takes so long for indie games to be released. On the other hand, I do know a few people who are making a poor living doing freelance game writing - which generally includes WotC or Paizo or similar. It's a sucky job, but that's more lucrative than something that can't even pay the bills.

Self-publishing means that someone's name is more visible and that they necessarily have to self-promote, but I'm doubtful that on average it pays better than freelance.

IMHO I think Bugle is just saying that writers of real talent could be making more on their own, that doesn't mean that "more than what WOTC would pay" = making a living.

On the whole I think that you are right though, and are basically in agreement with this sentiment:
https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"...The only folks making a living are the owner-publisher sorts, and they are all Boomers that made their bones decades ago like Kevin Siembieda or Steve Jackson. Everyone else--and increasingly, even the "big players"--are relying on crowdfunding not just to make it to market, but to keep things going at all. The smarter ones do tabletop RPGs as a side hustle, or--like the Pundit--live where the cost of living is low enough to make it work."

Yep, living of it requires talent and moving to where it's cheap but...

SJWs have no talent and wouldn't move to where it's cheaper cuz it would mean living near the plebs or non-white people.

So they live in the most expensive cities 15 to a room eating cat food while preaching to the plebs and non-whites how morally superior they are.

jhkim · September 20, 2021, 04:53:44 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on September 20, 2021, 03:31:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 03:24:35 AM
I'd split the difference here some. Artistically I'd love it if RPG writers got paid top dollar so the best writers came to write RPG systems and modules. ...

It's not about paying top dollar, my point was that even WOTC with big Hasbro bucks, and Magic money behind it doesn't even come close to paying what the average rates are for writers in other industries.

Although one way to look at it would be that if WOTC started to pay something resembling the average freelancer wage for other industries – that would be top dollar for RPG freelancers.

Right. The latter is what I meant. It sounds like WOTC is paying comparable to other RPG freelancers for RPG writing. And inherently, I don't think they have any ethical obligation to do otherwise. They are a for-profit company. In order to provide good return to their investors, they should pay in a way that is profitable and sustainable given the market. For contrast, a recent thread on TSR showed how TSR's profits were terrible even as their income was going sharply up.

I'm not saying I know for sure - but it seems to me quite possible that their overall freelance pay may be a wise business strategy that gives them greater return on investment.

jhkim · September 20, 2021, 05:02:03 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on September 20, 2021, 03:56:04 PM
IMHO I think Bugle is just saying that writers of real talent could be making more on their own, that doesn't mean that "more than what WOTC would pay" = making a living.

On the whole I think that you are right though, and are basically in agreement with this sentiment:
https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"...The only folks making a living are the owner-publisher sorts, and they are all Boomers that made their bones decades ago like Kevin Siembieda or Steve Jackson. Everyone else--and increasingly, even the "big players"--are relying on crowdfunding not just to make it to market, but to keep things going at all. The smarter ones do tabletop RPGs as a side hustle, or--like the Pundit--live where the cost of living is low enough to make it work."

I'll buy that Siembieda or Jackson are making a living as publishers for games like Munchkin and such - but that's because they're working as publishers rather than writers. If one wants to make a living as a writer, the question is whether it is better to freelance or self-publish. Among writers, I do know a handful of people who have done it for a living, like Ken Hite whom I knew in college. Hite was making a marginal living. His work was mostly freelance, not self-publishing.

GeekyBugle · September 20, 2021, 05:05:30 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 05:02:03 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on September 20, 2021, 03:56:04 PM
IMHO I think Bugle is just saying that writers of real talent could be making more on their own, that doesn't mean that "more than what WOTC would pay" = making a living.

On the whole I think that you are right though, and are basically in agreement with this sentiment:
https://bradfordcwalker.blogspot.com/2021/09/narrative-warfare-when-enemy-tells-on.html
"...The only folks making a living are the owner-publisher sorts, and they are all Boomers that made their bones decades ago like Kevin Siembieda or Steve Jackson. Everyone else--and increasingly, even the "big players"--are relying on crowdfunding not just to make it to market, but to keep things going at all. The smarter ones do tabletop RPGs as a side hustle, or--like the Pundit--live where the cost of living is low enough to make it work."

I'll buy that Siembieda or Jackson are making a living as publishers for games like Munchkin and such - but that's because they're working as publishers rather than writers. If one wants to make a living as a writer, the question is whether it is better to freelance or self-publish. Among writers, I do know a handful of people who have done it for a living, like Ken Hite whom I knew in college. Hite was making a marginal living. His work was mostly freelance, not self-publishing.

What's the difference between "Self-Publish" and "Publisher"?

IMHO it's a distinction without difference.

jhkim · September 20, 2021, 05:27:02 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
What's the difference between "Self-Publish" and "Publisher"?

IMHO it's a distinction without difference.

I'd say a self-publisher is someone who publishes only what they themselves have written.

A publisher primarily pays other people to write and concentrates on the business of publication and distribution. Kevin Siembieda and Steve Jackson may have started out as writers decades ago, but since then they have focused on managing the business and have hired freelance writers for the vast majority of writing that they publish.

EDITED TO ADD: There is a middle ground as someone might write 75% of what they publish, or 50% of what they publish, or 25% of what they publish, etc. I think it's fine to just call these as borderline.

Shasarak · September 20, 2021, 05:41:30 PM

The reason why most RPG writers get paid so poorly is that they produce bad fan fic that I can also fart out 5 minutes before the game.

GeekyBugle · September 20, 2021, 06:07:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 05:27:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
What's the difference between "Self-Publish" and "Publisher"?

IMHO it's a distinction without difference.

I'd say a self-publisher is someone who publishes only what they themselves have written.

A publisher primarily pays other people to write and concentrates on the business of publication and distribution. Kevin Siembieda and Steve Jackson may have started out as writers decades ago, but since then they have focused on managing the business and have hired freelance writers for the vast majority of writing that they publish.

EDITED TO ADD: There is a middle ground as someone might write 75% of what they publish, or 50% of what they publish, or 25% of what they publish, etc. I think it's fine to just call these as borderline.

So, in the case I postulate Self-Publisher IS a publisher that doesn't publish stuff from anyone else. They also don't have to share the profits with anyone else (except maybe the artist).

Formating stuff to publish isn't that hard, you just need to know your word processor.

Charon's Little Helper · September 20, 2021, 07:14:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 06:07:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 05:27:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
What's the difference between "Self-Publish" and "Publisher"?

IMHO it's a distinction without difference.

I'd say a self-publisher is someone who publishes only what they themselves have written.

A publisher primarily pays other people to write and concentrates on the business of publication and distribution. Kevin Siembieda and Steve Jackson may have started out as writers decades ago, but since then they have focused on managing the business and have hired freelance writers for the vast majority of writing that they publish.

EDITED TO ADD: There is a middle ground as someone might write 75% of what they publish, or 50% of what they publish, or 25% of what they publish, etc. I think it's fine to just call these as borderline.

So, in the case I postulate Self-Publisher IS a publisher that doesn't publish stuff from anyone else. They also don't have to share the profits with anyone else (except maybe the artist).

Formating stuff to publish isn't that hard, you just need to know your word processor.

Formatting stuff DECENTLY isn't hard. Formatting it well is a skill.

To self-publish you also need to market. And to pay up-front for artwork. And pay for editing if you don't want there to be grammar issues. (No one can edit their own manuscript more than at a mediocre level.)

Someone freelancing for an established publisher will almost always sell more copies than self-publishing a 100% identical module/book - because the publisher will have it on their storefront.

GeekyBugle · September 20, 2021, 08:06:55 PM

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on September 20, 2021, 07:14:55 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 06:07:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 05:27:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
What's the difference between "Self-Publish" and "Publisher"?

IMHO it's a distinction without difference.

I'd say a self-publisher is someone who publishes only what they themselves have written.

A publisher primarily pays other people to write and concentrates on the business of publication and distribution. Kevin Siembieda and Steve Jackson may have started out as writers decades ago, but since then they have focused on managing the business and have hired freelance writers for the vast majority of writing that they publish.

EDITED TO ADD: There is a middle ground as someone might write 75% of what they publish, or 50% of what they publish, or 25% of what they publish, etc. I think it's fine to just call these as borderline.

So, in the case I postulate Self-Publisher IS a publisher that doesn't publish stuff from anyone else. They also don't have to share the profits with anyone else (except maybe the artist).

Formating stuff to publish isn't that hard, you just need to know your word processor.

Formatting stuff DECENTLY isn't hard. Formatting it well is a skill.

To self-publish you also need to market. And to pay up-front for artwork. And pay for editing if you don't want there to be grammar issues. (No one can edit their own manuscript more than at a mediocre level.)

Someone freelancing for an established publisher will almost always sell more copies than self-publishing a 100% identical module/book - because the publisher will have it on their storefront.

Lets say you're 100% right on the art & editing...

There's this thing called crowdfunding, IF I can show the writting is done% and only the art and editing need to be done I'm pretty sure I can get the project funded. I might even be able to pay for formatting.

And marketing, well start talking about it constantly on all social media platforms you're on. Well before finishing the project, start creating interest.

the crypt keeper · September 20, 2021, 08:12:00 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Thing is the market jugernaut is a cheaskate because it needs to show more profits to the shareholders, which drives the hiring prices down and the really small publishers might not be able to afford to pay much more if at all.

Now, the writters currently working at WotC are stupid and/or talentless, why? because if they weren't they could be making more money self publishing their shit without compatible with 5e logo.

I'm not an industry insider, but that doesn't sound right to me. From my personal circles, it seems to me that almost no one is making a living in game self-publishing. Instead, it's a hobby they do on the side of their more regular job - which is part of why it takes so long for indie games to be released. On the other hand, I do know a few people who are making a poor living doing freelance game writing - which generally includes WotC or Paizo or similar. It's a sucky job, but that's more lucrative than something that can't even pay the bills.

Self-publishing means that someone's name is more visible and that they necessarily have to self-promote, but I'm doubtful that on average it pays better than freelance.

Douglas Cole/Gaming Ballistic lives off doing his own rpgs. You can find a link to a recent interview with the man on this site.

GeekyBugle · September 20, 2021, 08:19:21 PM

Quote from: the crypt keeper on September 20, 2021, 08:12:00 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Thing is the market jugernaut is a cheaskate because it needs to show more profits to the shareholders, which drives the hiring prices down and the really small publishers might not be able to afford to pay much more if at all.

Now, the writters currently working at WotC are stupid and/or talentless, why? because if they weren't they could be making more money self publishing their shit without compatible with 5e logo.

I'm not an industry insider, but that doesn't sound right to me. From my personal circles, it seems to me that almost no one is making a living in game self-publishing. Instead, it's a hobby they do on the side of their more regular job - which is part of why it takes so long for indie games to be released. On the other hand, I do know a few people who are making a poor living doing freelance game writing - which generally includes WotC or Paizo or similar. It's a sucky job, but that's more lucrative than something that can't even pay the bills.

Self-publishing means that someone's name is more visible and that they necessarily have to self-promote, but I'm doubtful that on average it pays better than freelance.

Douglas Cole/Gaming Ballistic lives off doing his own rpgs. You can find a link to a recent interview with the man on this site.

A working link? The one I found is for me to set up a podcast, something I don't want to do.

oggsmash · September 20, 2021, 08:25:11 PM

What is the exact dollar amount of "making a living?" I get that people living in very urban areas making 6 figures will think that anyone making less than they do is not making a living. But as geeky pointed out there are all kinds of places one can live and live on considerably less (I would even say they can actually live in cheap places around white people as well as non-white people). I know if I were a single man, my living expenses would be massively diminished. So when we say making a living, what are we talking here? Making 50k a year? 100k? or 30K? or less? or more?

GeekyBugle · September 20, 2021, 08:28:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 20, 2021, 08:25:11 PM
What is the exact dollar amount of "making a living?" I get that people living in very urban areas making 6 figures will think that anyone making less than they do is not making a living. But as geeky pointed out there are all kinds of places one can live and live on considerably less (I would even say they can actually live in cheap places around white people as well as non-white people). I know if I were a single man, my living expenses would be massively diminished. So when we say making a living, what are we talking here? Making 50k a year? 100k? or 30K? or less? or more?

Sure, they could live surrounded by white people, but those would be the plebs, and they are the anointed. Never gonna happen.

Jaeger · September 20, 2021, 09:55:19 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 20, 2021, 08:25:11 PM
What is the exact dollar amount of "making a living?" I get that people living in very urban areas making 6 figures will think that anyone making less than they do is not making a living. But as geeky pointed out there are all kinds of places one can live and live on considerably less (I would even say they can actually live in cheap places around white people as well as non-white people). I know if I were a single man, my living expenses would be massively diminished. So when we say making a living, what are we talking here? Making 50k a year? 100k? or 30K? or less? or more?

IMHO, In the US about 60K would be decent.

Equivalent to a somewhat normal professional position. Believe me, no one is living large at that income level...