That's exactly what I'm talking about in terms of just "smoothing things out" a bit.

Palladium never really revised itself as it kept glomming new material on.

Kinda like 1e D&D. The system grew long in the tooth and needs some shaving down and consolidation. Palladium in general, went crazytown with that and took it even further than 1e did.

I think the core of Rifts (and all the other Palladium material) can be salvaged but it needs a little re-work to trim the fat a bit. I honestly believe that if they did that, Palladium could re-do its entire catalog and become a pretty powerful name again in the TTRPG industry. It's sitting on a goldmine of ideas and a library of material that is unique and second to none. And I'm saying this as a neutral party. I wouldn't consider myself a Palladium fanboy by any stretch.

I fully recognize that their material could/would be utterly outstanding with a rules revision and some professional layout and redesign. I still wonder why they don't do it.

Quote from: tenbones;891951Kinda like 1e D&D. The system grew long in the tooth and needs some shaving down and consolidation. Palladium in general, went crazytown with that and took it even further than 1e did.

AD&D had Unerarthed Arcanna, Manual of the Planes, Wilderness Survival Guide, and Dungeoneers Survival Guide. Of those. Most people seem to have ignored UA and the other three are environ books. And people ignored those enough that TSR was giving them away.

Wasnt till 2e that things went nuts with the Complete Guides and other add-ons.

Back on topic.

Interestingly. Like Palladium. Cyberpunk was one of the few settings that TSR did not really cover. Though they did do a nice Biopunk setting with Kromosome for Amazing Engine. (it does have some cyberware tech in it too.)

And merged it with a superhero theme for F .R.E.E. Lancers for Top Secret/SI. Probably the closest TSR got to a straight up cyberpunk setting. To me at least the writing was so bland that it just felt kinda... there. But had some really interesting ideas in it.

Anyone else tried either of those?

Quote from: tenbones;891748I don't think you'll ever WANT to balance Rifts - (especially since I think such a thing would ruin Rifts as it does most games that try to do that). I think it can unify its various processes into something more streamlined even if that means different tables for different OCC's - but at least make it a little less opaque. Hell, I'd be happy for just them doing a new layout.

We found it best to ignore balance, just use the books as you would; last adventure we had was Juicers from Juicer's Uprising, but in the New German Republic, using some sort of dimensional transport to go to Wormword and find a pan flute that would lead the Gargoyles through a rift. Turns out it was to Atlantis where the Gargoyles were going. As long as you bracketed the players occ's, it was ok, but there really wasn't a lot of balance between the various books.

Quote from: tenbones;891715That's because Rabies will make you think funny thoughts.

Don't get me wrong - I have had a long multi-decade love-affair with Palladium Fantasy, Heroes Unlimited, Robotech, and Rifts (and Ninjas and Superspies) - but that's like when I had a girlfriend that was really into blow and was batshit crazy... but you know... It got old replacing my TV, stereo, furniture, and having to stitch/superglue my own wounds.

Rifts is just overwrought. It needs a cleaned up new edition, and honestly they don't have to change a lot in terms of style - they just need to settle on some unified mechanics.

Still don't understand why they don't do it. Given their solid fanbase, the fact that the system hasn't really had a legitimate new edition. I think they'd make a fantastic amount of money. Maybe they're waiting to see how Savage Rifts fares?

RIFTS has had a single game system for nearly 30 years now, and while parts of it are cumbersome it's clearly served the game well.

Shadowrun has gone through four (or is it 5) editions now, and every single one has been crap. Buckets of Dice, stupid subsystems, and UTTERLY Appalling character creation ("here's 400 points, and now here's 50 different things you can put those points into. Good luck over the next 8 hours while you try to decide what to make your character, newb, though it doesn't really matter at all since the guy who knows all the tricks to game the system will have a character a thousand times better than yours").

If I have to decide between systems, there's no contest. The Palladium system, warts and all, is better by a thousand fold than ANY game that ever called itself 'shadowrun'.

Quote from: Omega;891726Never seen much fanatical about either. Least untill Cyberpunk 2020 fanatics attack them then all hell breaks lose. Rifts fans rarely come across as fanatical. Loyal, yes. Fanatical. No. Very different things.

Most Rifts fans are kinda subdued really. They just lurk and play and try to keep their quiet little fan sites from being deleted by Palladium. Or wondering what new screwup will happen next.

Palladium is, aside from D&D, the only company I've seen multiple gamers wearing t-shirts of. I met one guy who went around with a RIFTS t-shirt and had his dice-bag tied around his belt and claimed he was a... I don't remember the exact word he used, I want to say "prophet" but I'm not sure that was it... of the glory of Palladium and its products.

There's a reason Kevin Siembieda can unironically use terms like "Crisis of Treachery" and get his base to send him thousands of dollars in a move that would make TV Evangelists jealous.

Quote from: RPGPundit;892561There's a reason Kevin Siembieda can unironically use terms like "Crisis of Treachery" and get his base to send him thousands of dollars in a move that would make TV Evangelists jealous.

I thought it was for the same reason people pay to tour circus sideshows?

Quote from: RPGPundit;892560RIFTS has had a single game system for nearly 30 years now, and while parts of it are cumbersome it's clearly served the game well.

Shadowrun has gone through four (or is it 5) editions now, and every single one has been crap. Buckets of Dice, stupid subsystems, and UTTERLY Appalling character creation ("here's 400 points, and now here's 50 different things you can put those points into. Good luck over the next 8 hours while you try to decide what to make your character, newb, though it doesn't really matter at all since the guy who knows all the tricks to game the system will have a character a thousand times better than yours").

If I have to decide between systems, there's no contest. The Palladium system, warts and all, is better by a thousand fold than ANY game that ever called itself 'shadowrun'.

I would never think of comparing the two in terms of my own preference. I've never cared for Shadowrun's system and that has been since 1e (the only one I played) but I've seen enough edition wars to know I have zero interest in the system of the later editions. Setting seems interesting tho.

Quote from: RPGPundit;892561There's a reason Kevin Siembieda can unironically use terms like "Crisis of Treachery" and get his base to send him thousands of dollars in a move that would make TV Evangelists jealous.

To be clear, Siembieda and his work has enough fans to send in money when they see that things really went south. However, he could call it such unironically because that (with or without the catastrophic language) is what happened. A trusted employee ripped them off. Whether the donations were because the fans are so die hard, or because it was kind of like a help someone afford the suddenly needed organ transplant situation, I don't know.

As to RIFTS itself. I think its greatest hindrance is that there is now such a high purchasing bar for new entries into the system.

Shadowrun is getting a new edition called Shadowrun Anarchy by the end of the year, but from all accounts it will be a narrative storygame version of Shadowrun.  Rules are supposed to only be about 40 pages, and rumor is that there will be no GM at all.

The good thing is that this is supposed to complement Shadowrun 5th Edition for the storygame crowd, not replace nor supersede it.

Quote from: Celestial;892700Shadowrun is getting a new edition called Shadowrun Anarchy by the end of the year, but from all accounts it will be a narrative storygame version of Shadowrun.  Rules are supposed to only be about 40 pages, and rumor is that there will be no GM at all.

The good thing is that this is supposed to complement Shadowrun 5th Edition for the storygame crowd, not replace nor supersede it.

I thought you were joking. Joke's on me apparently.

My initial reaction is: ungh.

But given the current ruleset... I think this is kind of reactionary.

Nope, not joking.  I wish I was.  I'd much rather see a traditional rules medium Shadowrun, but c'est la vie.

Quote from: Celestial;892700Shadowrun is getting a new edition called Shadowrun Anarchy by the end of the year, but from all accounts it will be a narrative storygame version of Shadowrun.  Rules are supposed to only be about 40 pages, and rumor is that there will be no GM at all.

At least all the debates will be over: THIS will be the shittiest edition of Shadowrun ever.

Yep.  From bad (first to third edition) to worse (fourth and fifth edition) to even worse (Anarchy).  I can't say worst, because who knows what they'll cook up in five to ten years.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;892764At least all the debates will be over: THIS will be the shittiest edition of Shadowrun ever.

LOL but will it still be cyberpunk!?!?!?!

Quote from: tenbones;892778LOL but will it still be cyberpunk!?!?!?!

*Takes the gas can from Tenbones*  Stop that.