Quote from: Orphan81;879504

I think you're right. Shadowrun was a complex rule system when games like GURPS and other crunchy things were becoming serious contenders (and pointlessly complex games like Aftermath were becoming distant memories). That level of knobs and dials to fiddle with was seen as a feature, and not a bug (frankly, I think they were until fatigue with GURSP 3 and then D&D 3.x set in).

Likewise, the focus was there, and was simple. Yes, you were in modern times, and you could be a street mage, a street samurai, a decker, or a vehicle guy, but you were still focusing on infiltration and fighting (sometimes VR programs, but it was still combat by another name). CP 2020 was much more open and it figuring out how to roleplay a futuristic rockstar or something was a greater leap from the existent view of what one gamed.

I also think the fantasy element probably helped it, in that it could be thought of as a alternate (classless and levelless, which was also in vogue at the time) D&D, just with guns and cars. You could still have your elves and trolls and wizards, just with cyberware (which, fluff aside, were magic items that you could take at character creation).

Quote from: Simlasa;879550I wasn't turned off because it added fantasy but because of what flavor of fantasy it added... standard fantasy races like dwarves, dragons, trolls.
Other cyberpunk games that added horror elements were more of more interest to me and I did pick up some of the Shadowrun books that featured the bugs (Invai).

I liked some of the twists Shadowrun put on the standard fantasy races. Especially the trolls and orcs who pretty much were just really ugly very strong humans at the end of the day. Probably because many were human before changing.

But yeah. They could have gone in other directions. But perhaps the familliarity helped. WEG went inquisition with the Cyberpapacy and TSR went superheroes with Free LANCERS.

FASA's glitzier production and connections to multiple media had to have helped alot too. Especially the broader connections.

Quote from: Omega;879570But yeah. They could have gone in other directions. But perhaps the familliarity helped. WEG went inquisition with the Cyberpapacy and TSR went superheroes with Free LANCERS.

I was always intrigued by (but never got to play) Mayfair's Underground... which probably doesn't quite qualify as 'cyberpunk' but still felt in the general ballpark in terms of my interest in near-future dystopias mixed with low-level supers.

The level of popularity a game has is mainly a source of annoyance for me, when games I don't personally like get mobs of fans and games I do like don't get so much. But not much annoyance, as long as there are people to play the ones I do like. In fact, it's often nice when the games I do like don't get the attention of the unwashed mob.

So I don't know or particularly care how many people like or play Shadowrun versus Cyberpunk. As a GURPS player, I was mildly interested in GURPS Cyberpunk, but used very little material from that book, and when I ran or player Sci Fi games, things rarely went very far in those directions. Shadowrun seems like a clever idea that caught on, and that I really don't want to play or know more about than I already involuntarily do. I do see that it still seems to have a bunch of newbie mainstream players, and I haven't heard people talking about Cyberpunk 2020 (or GURPS Cyberpunk) in a long time.

As a barely interested taxonomist, or just as far as my personal thinking on the subject goes, it seems to me that Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk per se, it's hybrid Fantasy/modern... I didn't even know some people considered it Cyberpunk. Can you play Shadowrun as a computer geek who ignores reality and just does virtual reality hacking and stuff?

In my neck of Vancouver Shadowrun was the only thing we played.  The fantasy elements and "high-tech dungeon crawl" paired with the Pacific Northwest setting which is familiar to us made it really easy to get people into.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;879484Is/was Shadowrun the most widely played cyberpunk RPG?

Because if it is/was I find it very slightly sad that cyberpunk as a genre apparently needed a fantasy implant to make it big in tabletop.

It is precisely the "Fantasy Implant" that made me hate Shadowrun.

As a teen, I ran several adventures using CyberAge, a standalone system published by French RPG Magazine Casus Belli. Loved it and it had all the tropes I needed to have a good time.

Other than that, our group played Cyberpunk (2020). I recall an attempt in High School where one of our friends wanted to run a campaign of Shadowrun for us, and the fantasy stuff just left a bad taste in my mouth.

Quote from: SkargAs a barely interested taxonomist, or just as far as my personal thinking on the subject goes, it seems to me that Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk per se, it's hybrid Fantasy/modern... I didn't even know some people considered it Cyberpunk.

I find Shadowrun more cyberpunk than Cyberpunk 2020. This may sound crazy but I find its fantastical elements enforce the kind of dystopias seen in staple works of the genre in ways that I find lacking in CP2020. Metahuman prejudice, Amerindian prejudice, the barrens, magic based on "evil" beliefs (voodoo, shamanism, etc), etc while the corps rule the day from their steel mirrored towers. The actual elements differ from the ones seen in Blade Runner or Snow Crash or Sprawl Trilogy, but the feeling of desperation and social collapse is as strong (or more) to me.

QuoteCan you play Shadowrun as a computer geek who ignores reality and just does virtual reality hacking and stuff?

Yes, it's perfectly possible. The matrix rules are structured and dense enough to allow for, say, a deckers-only group. (some say these rules are too structured and dense, in fact, to the point of disrupting the rest of the game lol )

Quote from: Orphan81;879504In my neck of the woods and from the apocaphyral tales I've heard..

Cyberpunk 2020 started as the most played version...but ended up quickly getting surpassed by Shadowrun, partly because of a few factors..

1.) Rules
Cyberpunk's rules were much faster and lighter and ultimately more shallow....Shadowrun's rules were more complex but not utterly arcane...in an era when Geeks had less distractions, Shadowrun's complexity lent itself to a more interesting play dynamic..

2.) Focus
Yes, the magic was a big draw...but more than that, was the focus of what you did in Shadowrun vs what you did in Cyberpunk.... Cyberpunk was a much more 'open' game...You could play rockstars, detectives...gang members...you could play mercenaries, or corporate tycoons battling it out. The game was almost more 'social' than Shadowrun in many ways...

Shadowrun by contrast, had a veneer of being able to do the same sorts of things (Just look at the sample characters in 2nd edition) but at the end of the Day, Shadowrun was about doing one thing.....Shadowrunning, playing a group of mercenaries hired by corporations to get dirty jobs done..

In this sense, Cyberpunks verisimilitude worked against it. Shadowrun had the much more familiar set up that most RPG players are used too and is still used by most rpgs to this day...A group of eclectic troubleshooters who are hired to get things done...

Very different from a game that says, "How about we play a rockband this campaign, you can be the manager, you can be the security, the rest of us are the band members" to "Lets be Police this time, we'll be the detectives, you be the Swat Guy, you be the Forensic Guy, and you be the Police Hacker" that paralyzation of choice was present....even if most people did just play Edgerunners in the end.

3.) Backing
R.Talsorian games has mostly been a one man operation. Mike Pondsmith is one of the best RPG designers out there, but FASA had more resources because of MechWarrior and could end up hiring for better production values and to keep putting out more books...

Anyway, this could all be complete bunk on my part...but it's what seemed to be the case for why Shadowrun overtook Cyberpunk 2020 by the mid 90s..

Sounds about right to me. All of the points you made actually have zero to do with the Fantasy mash-up elements, so now I'm wondering how feasible it would be to use Shadowrun without the dreaded (for some of us) fantasy elements.

Quote from: Itachi;879595I find Shadowrun more cyberpunk than Cyberpunk 2020.

You and I have different ideas of what "cyberpunk" is, or a totally different reading of the source material, or I don't know what.
Mind, I'm not disputing that it works like that for you, just saying that it was the opposite for me:).

Of course, I also feel both lose to the less-known Fates Worse Than Death;).

Since I don't think we're going to see a representative poll I can say this: I first came across Cyberpunk 2020 in a tiny comic shop in New York.This was an easy buy for me and instantly appealing. We played several campaigns over the next few years before moving to Las Vegas. It took a few months to find a gaming group, and I found them in a library by overhearing them trying to decipher the almost Byzantine rules of 1st Edition Shadowrun.  

As I integrated with this new gaming group I saw the appeal of Shadowrun's  mechanical intricacy and how to arrange your character. Actually, I think Shadowrun, and GURPS may have been my introduction to Min/Maxing. After playing with the group for a few months I tried to introduce them to Cyberpunk 2020 but the general consensus was that the game felt antiquated, albeit with several great one liners.

Over the years I met a number of other gamers that were either pro Cyberpunk or pro Shadowrun. What seemed to be consistent was their preference ran with whichever game they were exposed to first. Although, I did find a few cyberpunk purests that wouldn't touch Shadowrun due to magic.

Personally, I preferred Cyberpunk 2020, but that was what I was exposed to first.

Quote from: JeremyR;879521And lastly, Cyberpunk's products seemed a bit, well, low quality. Ugly covers, cheap paper, ugly fonts, crappy artwork. For a game where the premise of the world is style above substance, they kinda completely missed it

I don't know about this. One thing that the CP2020 rulebook, and a lot of its supplements did, was capture that almost gonzo/future shock vibe very well. I actually got drawn into cyberpunk as a genre through the game, rather than the other way around.

I liked the GURPs supplement, but it didn't really have much flavor.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;879484Is/was Shadowrun the most widely played cyberpunk RPG?

Because if it is/was I find it very slightly sad that cyberpunk as a genre apparently needed a fantasy implant to make it big in tabletop.

The fantasy stuff really killed my interest in Shadowrun as a setting. Cyberpunk is somewhat predicated on being reality based (that is, the imagined furture was predicated on reality). Adding tolkienesque fantasy elements to it is too jarring.

 CthuluPunk, though, that was an interesting mixture. I think that sci-fi and horror mix very well.

I wouldn't really classify Shadowrun as Cyberpunk. Its more like Urban Fantasy with cyberpunk elements like cyberware and decking due to its heavy reliance on magic and creatures due to its link to Earthdawn.

I know Cyberpunk 2020 was much more popular before Shadowrun's mid-90s breakout.

I am looking forward to seeing what Ted does with the genre. He is working on creating an Interface Zero/Shadowrun Cyberpunk/Urban Fantasy game for Savage Worlds. Although, it is sort of weird that he has been working on it for like three months now to tweak it just right. At some point you gotta throw your vision out there to the wolves...I mean players lol.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;879607I liked the GURPs supplement, but it didn't really have much flavor.

FIXED took all the flavor of GURPS Cyberpunk, guess it was suspicious looking.

Quote from: Itachi;879532What it says about the hobby is that we like fantasy too much. Cyberpunk, Hard Sci-fi and other genres will always come after it.

Quote from: Omega;879533If that were true then Traveller would have never gotten the traction its had.

No, that has been my experience. The vast majority of gamers know what D&D and Pathfinder are, but when you ask them about Traveller, you usually get blank stares.

There is also a disconnect between what the internet finds popular and what the Real World finds popular. The internet thinks that Eclipse Phase is at the top of SFRPGs while the Real World thinks that FFG's Star Wars is the top SFRPG.