Quote from: Christopher Brady;881814Humans have been killing Mother Nature for millennia.  One big burst of magic and we back off?  No.

Try nuking a hurricane or volcano and then get back to me on how well one stops it.

Quote from: Omega;881899Try nuking a hurricane or volcano and then get back to me on how well one stops it.

People survive those.  Also, the fallout from the amount ecological damage they would have caused with those eruptions would have killed the Natives just as badly as their enemies.  Worse, they just made their homelands inhospitable to THEMSELVES!  Nuclear Winter much?

And that's what gets me about the Great Ghost Dance was how perfect it was.  No fallout what so ever.

Even better for them there was nothing Technology could do.  To which I call, bullshit.  Simply because Shadowrunner mages and shaman get gunned downed in the system relatively easily.  There would have been no take over of the army bases.

The fluff doesn't match the system.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881907People survive those.  Also, the fallout from the amount ecological damage they would have caused with those eruptions would have killed the Natives just as badly as their enemies.  Worse, they just made their homelands inhospitable to THEMSELVES!  Nuclear Winter much?

And that's what gets me about the Great Ghost Dance was how perfect it was.  No fallout what so ever.

Even better for them there was nothing Technology could do.  To which I call, bullshit.  Simply because Shadowrunner mages and shaman get gunned downed in the system relatively easily.  There would have been no take over of the army bases.

The fluff doesn't match the system.

Well 4th edition fixed that for you by making the game unplayable.  Mages were so overpowered that you were foolish to play anything else.

Not exactly fun stuff.

Quote from: KingCheops;882079Well 4th edition fixed that for you by making the game unplayable.  Mages were so overpowered that you were foolish to play anything else.

Not exactly fun stuff.

No but at least it matched the fluff.

It was just a little too one-sided.  I don't mind the Natives winning most of the land back, but there should have been more of a war, than a simple bland massacre.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;882197No but at least it matched the fluff.

It was just a little too one-sided.  I don't mind the Natives winning most of the land back, but there should have been more of a war, than a simple bland massacre.

While far as I know not mentioned in 1st ed. The threat of erupting the Yellowstone supervolcano would have probably been sufficient to make everyone back off.

Part of the NA relatively easy win was that the US was still reeling from te assassination of the president and his replacement with a corporate puppet nutjob. Probably aided by the fact that at that time no one knew the full extent of magic and this was the first display. There was as yet no counters to "Summon Tornado". And the NA resistance was scattered and using guerrilla tactics.

At the end of the day they backed down and as of 1st ed the full details of why were unknown aside from the noted incidents.

You dont like mother nature at its finest being pretty much invincible? Tough! It is.

Quote from: Omega;882256You dont like mother nature at its finest being pretty much invincible? Tough! It is.

It's not invincible (if it was, there would be no cities and frankly no human society), BUT I do agree that it's powerful, and doesn't like to be messed with.  And having four super volcanoes pop on the same continent would have dire, dire repercussions that would do as much damage to the Natives as it would the rest of the U.S. to teach humanity you do not FUCK with Mother Nature.  And it wouldn't take all that long either, by 2030, they would know that the Great Ghost Dance would have been a REALLY bad idea.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;882308It's not invincible (if it was, there would be no cities and frankly no human society)

Not sure how this tracks.  Those things exist because Mother Nature doesn't give a rat's ass.  Besides which human beings are also part of nature and doing a pretty kick ass job of it -- successful species don't require biodiversity or specific habitats.  We're the most successful and invasive species Gaia ever birthed.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;882308It's not invincible (if it was, there would be no cities and frankly no human society),

Im currently living on an active faultline. Remind me again about how cities > nature? (We had a small tremor last year.)

In any case seems like subsequent editions toned down the shamanic magic while upgrading the hermetic? Seems like over time the designers have lost sight of its less magic heavy start.

Then again the SNES port was a little more heavy magic oriented.

Quote from: KingCheops;882322Not sure how this tracks.  Those things exist because Mother Nature doesn't give a rat's ass.  Besides which human beings are also part of nature and doing a pretty kick ass job of it -- successful species don't require biodiversity or specific habitats.  We're the most successful and invasive species Gaia ever birthed.

Bugs and bacteria disagree. Lots. :eek:

None of the volcanos that erupted would have been a supervolcano eruption.  Rainer would ruin southern seattle (which it did) but not be that big.
Adams could go big, but nowhere near super range.
Baker is too young.
Saint Helens didn't have much left after the last one.

4 Supervolcano eruptions at once would probably be a Extinction Level Event.  There weren't any eruptions that big though.

However, it proved that the natives had "natural nukes" and were willing to use them.  Plus, the gov't had no idea what they *could* do.  Winter storms burying the East coast in 30ft of snow?  Tornados or hurricanes wiping out all the oil refineries?  Every nuclear power plant becoming a Chernobyl?  Pretty much every country and Megacorp in the world was pressuring the US to deal, including all the Megacorps that supplied the US with all its hardware.

Plus, you don't find out until later, but even though the Elves weren't really known about yet, and most of the dragons were still asleep, there was still a gigantic "Oh fuck me."  moment because the ones that were around and active knew there was only way to achieve that level of magic at this point in time, a type of magic no one not alive during the last cycle should know how to do - Blood Magic.

So considering all the shit that had been going on, weakening the country, there was no way the US could fight a civil war with zero help from other nations and the megas.

The Great Ghost Dance wasn't a one-shot kill, it was just a mighty blow to a country that was already weak and staggering from decades of disaster and decline.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882387None of the volcanos that erupted would have been a supervolcano eruption.

I didnt say any were. I was pointing out that all they had to do was threaten to detonate Yellowstone. They didnt. But you can imagine the high ups worrying just what the hell the limits were.

Other than that. Spot on.

When someone uses nukes, those in power have to make a decision.  Do they also want to use them?  Because when someone uses nuclear weapons, it's done.  It's over.  You've lost everything, and if you have them, you have to make the call of do you want to wipe someone else out to?

And against all the fundamental rules of nature and physics, there were no repercussions from using mother nature as a weapon as a nuclear level weapon. Whatever happened to equal and opposite reaction?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;882398And against all the fundamental rules of nature and physics, there were no repercussions from using mother nature as a weapon as a nuclear level weapon. Whatever happened to equal and opposite reaction?

It triggered the full scale expression of metas worldwide. So instead of a few elves at the time of the event. You had people mutating into orcs, trolls, elves, and dwarves, as well as vampires, wendigo, ghouls, and so on. As well as animals mutating too.

Not sure but it may have kickstarted the return of magic enough that after that hermetic magics were possible. Not to mention theres now five active volcanoes and swaths of surrounding devastation.

And eventually the elves kicked the NA out of a section of territory.

Mother nature and sister magic apparent appreciate irony.

And heres a funny observation. To date I've never seen anyone play a mage or shaman in Shadowrun.

Quote from: Omega;882409It triggered the full scale expression of metas worldwide. So instead of a few elves at the time of the event. You had people mutating into orcs, trolls, elves, and dwarves, as well as vampires, wendigo, ghouls, and so on. As well as animals mutating too.

Not sure but it may have kickstarted the return of magic enough that after that hermetic magics were possible. Not to mention theres now five active volcanoes and swaths of surrounding devastation.

And eventually the elves kicked the NA out of a section of territory.

Mother nature and sister magic apparent appreciate irony.

I was talking ecological fallout.  It's just a bugbear.  Like I said, I have no problems with the Natives winning (they deserve it!) but the amount of raw uncontrolled damage and side effects would go a long way into explaining why Shaman and Mages don't cut loose with the earth shattering spells whenever Renraku decides to flex their muscles in everyone's faces.

Quote from: Omega;882410And heres a funny observation. To date I've never seen anyone play a mage or shaman in Shadowrun.

Really?  Hmm.  I have to admit, other than myself (and I played a fellow who hated the fact that he was a mage) I didn't see them often.  But then I was more of a CP2020 gamer.